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Thursday, November 16, 2023

A Unanimous Duo! Acuña, Ohtani named MVPs

2023 AL MVP Voting

2023 NL MVP Voting

Hombre Brotani Posted: November 16, 2023 at 06:59 PM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: acuna, awards and honors, mvp, ohtani

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   1. AndrewJ Posted: November 16, 2023 at 07:43 PM (#6147401)
Shohei being named MVP=impressive

Being named MVP unanimously after missing the last 27 games of the season=Very impressive

Being named MVP unanimously TWICE=unprecedented
   2. Booey Posted: November 16, 2023 at 08:39 PM (#6147403)
Being named MVP unanimously TWICE=unprecedented


Obviously a huge accomplishment for Shohei. Crazy that Bonds was only unanimous once though.

Barry's 1st place votes for his MVP seasons:

1990 - 23/24 - Someone voted for Bobby Bonilla?!
1992 - 18/24
1993 - 24/28
2001 - 30/32 - Sosa got 2 votes despite Barry's 73 homers and .863 SLG
2002 - 32/32 - Yay, he got one!
2003 - 28/32
2004 - 24/32 - This one blows my mind. Granted, Beltre, Pujols, and Rolen were awesome, but Barry broke the game with a .362/.609/.812 line and 232 walks (120 intentional)
   3. Booey Posted: November 16, 2023 at 08:41 PM (#6147404)
Also first time ever that both MVP's have been unanimous. Apparently having a 184 OPS+ AND a 142 ERA+ or going 40/70 in HR/SB with the 2nd most runs scored in the expansion era (149) is pretty good...
   4. Walt Davis Posted: November 16, 2023 at 10:50 PM (#6147410)
AL leaders

Diaz 330 BA
Semien 122 R
Semien 185 H
Ohtani 44 HR
Tucker 112 RBI

NL leaders
Arraez 354 BA
Acuna 149 R
Acuna 217 H
Olson 54 HR
Olson 149 RBI

Olson got robbed!! Since when does leading the league in HR and RBI not win MVP. He's a run producer!

And Semien too. H, R and tied for 4th in RBI. Sure Ohtani led in HR and pitched a little (putting his entire season at risk!) but he wasn't even top 10 in RBI so fat lot of good those HRs did his team!

It's Flashback Friday in New Zealand.
   5. John Northey Posted: November 16, 2023 at 11:42 PM (#6147413)
In 1996 Bonds led in bWAR with a crazy 9.7 (was 40 HR/40 SB that year too with a crazy 151 walks) but was 5th in MVP voting (voters in the 90's were infamous for ignoring defense anywhere but SS/C and then only for guys who generally didn't hit much, and walks? Only wimps take walks), in 1997 he had a 8.2 but (rightfully) was behind Walker, Piazza, Biggio (and Bagwell less WAR but close), 1998 he led the league with 8.1 WAR but that was the PED show (McGwire/Sosa both with 66+ HR) so he came in 8th place (also behind a closer, Galarraga with inflated Coors Field stats, Biggio, Greg Vaughn, and Moises Alou - all 1 1/2+ WAR behind him) - can see why he said 'screw it' and went full PED after that. Clearly the writers were determined to ignore him by that point.

Crazy - Bonds had 12 seasons of 8+ WAR, 3 over 10, 5 in the 9's. 7 of those 8+ WAR seasons were pre-PEDs too. Love how his highest pay was $22 mil in 2005 - the year he played the least in his ML career (just 14 games), and how MLB decided to blackball him after 2007 when he had a 169 OPS+ (I will never believe no AL team wanted him to DH after that season at the ML minimum which he publicly offered to play for).
   6. John Northey Posted: November 16, 2023 at 11:44 PM (#6147414)
Btw, have we ever seen the top 2 both be unanimous? Weird to see that in the NL with Acuna and Betts. Just 4 guys got top 4 votes too (Freeman/Olson splitting 4/5 which seems appropriate).

2021 AL came very close - Ohtani got all 30 1st place, Vlad Jr got 29 2nd's and 1 3rd (someone put Salvador Perez 2nd instead).
   7. John Northey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 12:12 AM (#6147415)
Looking through baseball history of unanimous MVP's only 1936 comes close with Carl Hubbell winning it and Dizzy Dean coming in 2nd 1 point shy of having all the 2nd place votes, much like Vlad in 2021. The rest don't appear to be that close to a 100% 2nd place vote. Hard to find for certain as no one seems to list full voting for each year (BR & Baseball Cube both just have total points and first place votes, no record of 2nd/3rd/...10th place votes for each guy sadly).
   8. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 12:36 AM (#6147416)
With Betts not winning, Frank Robinson remains the other player to win MVP in both leagues. Seager has now also come (relatively) close with a 2nd place finish in the AL and a 3rd in the NL (his rookie year).

So how many players have even finished in the top 5 in MVP voting in both leagues? Here's everyone I could find, with their top finish in each league listed:

Mookie Betts - 1st (AL), 2nd (NL-twice)
Corey Seager - 2nd (AL), 3rd (NL)
Miguel Cabrera - 1st (AL-twice), 5th (NL-twice)
Vladimir Guerrero - 1st (AL), 4th (NL)
Manny Ramirez - 3rd (AL-twice), 4th (NL-in just 53 games!)
Gary Sheffield - 2nd (AL), 3rd (NL-twice)
Mark McGwire - 2nd (NL), 4th (AL)
Frank Robinson - 1st (NL), 1st (AL)

Anyone else? There's gotta be more...
   9. baxter Posted: November 17, 2023 at 12:49 AM (#6147417)
Dave Winfield; I was going to jump in w/McGwire (then realized you had him listed); so took a few more guesses.
also, Dick Allen; although he was Richie for one of them
also, Adrian Beltre
It would be a good immaculate grid category
   10. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 12:55 AM (#6147418)
#9 - Yep, good call on Winfield.

Dave Winfield - 3rd (NL), 4th (AL)

Which reminds me of...

Eddie Murray - 2nd (AL-twice), 5th (NL)
   11. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:06 AM (#6147419)
#9 -

Dick Allen - 1st (AL), 4th (NL)
Adrian Beltre - 2nd (NL), 3rd (AL)

Yep, checks out!
   12. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:13 AM (#6147420)
Since you all invoked IG, there and here a correct answer is almost always Gary Sheffield.
   13. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:16 AM (#6147421)
I mentioned Sheff...
   14. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:20 AM (#6147422)
You sure did. Reading comprehension not great at this hour; carry on.
   15. Lonnie Smith for president Posted: November 17, 2023 at 05:40 AM (#6147423)
Better rested and thinking more clearly, I guessed Delgado, McGriff, and Prince Fielder -- all near-misses.
   16. Baldrick Posted: November 17, 2023 at 08:44 AM (#6147427)
Manny Machado is another recent one. 4th and 5th for the Orioles, and then a 3rd and 2nd for the Padres.
   17. Mefisto Posted: November 17, 2023 at 08:48 AM (#6147428)
@5: The very greatest players almost always get shorted on MVP awards. Mays and Williams could have won many times but the writers back then just didn't give awards to them. In that sense, Bonds actually did very well.
   18. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: November 17, 2023 at 11:41 AM (#6147442)
2001 - 30/32 - Sosa got 2 votes despite Barry's 73 homers and .863 SLG


Is that the highest WAR (10.3) from a clear non-MVP season (non-pitcher division)?

Trout had 10.5 in 2012, but was 2nd to Cabrera's triple crown, so I can understand why people went for Cabrera.
Petrocelli and Ripken were close with 10.0 and no MVP title. Yaz and Mays should have won when they had their monster seasons. Maybe Mays in '63 was a justifiable 2nd to Koufax, too bad he was 5th in voting...

ETA: missed Williams as noted in #17. He should have won in '42 at least with 10.5 WAR. '41 was defensible going with the best player on the 101-win Yanks.
   19. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:22 PM (#6147457)
#18 - Yeah, that Sosa season is crazy. He hit .328/.437/.737(!) for a cool 203 OPS+, with 64 homers, 160 rbi, 146 runs scored, 425(!) total bases, and 10.3 WAR...and yet it's still nutty that he got any first place votes at all, considering Barry outhit him by 78 pts of OBP, 126(!) pts of SLG, and 56 pts of OPS+, with 9 more homers in 100 fewer AB's. And it's not like either of them were stealing 30 bases or winning gold gloves at this point to alter the offensive gap much.

I don't care what anyone says, sillyball was amazing.
   20. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:31 PM (#6147460)
Sosa is the only player to hit 60 HR in a season and not win the HR title. And he did it 3 times!
   21. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:36 PM (#6147463)
That factoid always amuses me; Sammy has 3 of the top 6 single season homer totals of all time...and didn't lead the league in any of them! His 1998, 1999, and 2001 HR totals would have led the league in every season in MLB history...except the 3 years he actually hit them in.
   22. deleuze68 Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:47 PM (#6147464)
Speaking of Dave Winfield, is he the only player to have top 5 MVP votes in his 20's, 30's and 40's? And who else even has a top 5 finish in their 40's? Bonds and Stargell won in age 39 season, Ortiz was 6th in age 40 season.
   23. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 17, 2023 at 01:53 PM (#6147466)
He did lead the league with his 4th and 5th best totals of 50 and 49, making him one of 4 (I think) players who's best league leading total is the 4th (or worse) seasonal total of their career. The other 3 players all come with a sort of asterisk.

Dwight Evans only title was in 1981 in a 4 way tie, with 22. He had 6 other seasons with more than 22. Obviously that was a strike year, and had there been a full season, the league leader would certainly have had much more than 22.

Vern Stephens led the AL in 1945 with 24 when a) most real ballplayers were in a different kind of uniform, and b) it was the year of the dead "balata ball." he had 3 seasons after the war with more than 24 but didn't lead.

Tillie Walker tied babe Ruth with 11 in 1918. After the lively ball exploded he topped that 3 times but was nowhere near Ruth in 1920 and 21, and fell 2 shy of Ken Williams in 1922.
   24. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:01 PM (#6147468)
Pitchers are different but ... Clemens won a CYA and a 3rd-place in his 40s, got MVP votes both years. Spahn had 2nd-place at 39-40 and MVP votes at 42. Verlander won at 39, Perry at 39, Unit 2nd at 40.
   25. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:03 PM (#6147469)
#23 - Eddie Murray's only HR title came in what was tied for his 13th highest season! (He was also part of that 4-way tie with 22 in the 1981 strike season)

Manny Ramirez's only HR title came in his 4th highest season. He led with 43 in 2004, but he had 2 seasons of 45 and 1 of 44 that didn't lead.
   26. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:10 PM (#6147470)
If you want a major asterisk, Marcell Ozuna's only HR title in the 2020 COVID season was his 8th highest total. ;-)

Oddly, Luke Voits AL HR title that season in 56 games is actually tied for his career high.
   27. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:21 PM (#6147471)
On a more sabermetric bent, I wonder how many guys there are with, say, at least 25 WAR in each league ...

Frank, Winfield, Vlad (with rounding help) and ??? Beltre, McGriff and McGwire just miss; Allen, Delgado & Sheff miss. Mookie and Manny will make it next year we hope. Ohtani will make it as soon as he signs with the Cubs -- right? right?

You might have to drop it to 20 WAR to get a fuller list.
   28. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:28 PM (#6147473)
Huh ... Beltran makes it.

EDIT: And, I shoulda known this, Reggie Smith.

Raines had 20 in the AL; looks like Lofton had about 15 in the NL (that's a lot of teams).
   29. JJ1986 Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:28 PM (#6147474)
On a more sabermetric bent, I wonder how many guys there are with, say, at least 25 WAR in each league ...
Randy and Pedro certainly.
   30. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:34 PM (#6147475)
#29 - Several pitchers, I assume. Add Perry and Greinke for sure.
   31. JJ1986 Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:36 PM (#6147476)
Jim Edmonds also gets to 20. George Davis makes it, playing from 1890-1909 with some very good White Sox seasons.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:42 PM (#6147478)
#26: That 2020 Voit season rates out to 59.4 HR in 162 games -- he coulda been the first Judge! What kinda contract offer does Voit get if he hits 60 HRs? :-)
   33. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:44 PM (#6147479)
#29-30 ... yes, pitchers are easy. They're weird.

Our OF is well-stocked, the rest is hurting. (For Cs, let's say at least 18 in both?)

EDIT: not Simmons; Porter had 12 for StL
EDIT2: Tenace yes! Not much of a C, just 760 starts, but we won't have many options
   34. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:48 PM (#6147480)
Yeah, OK. I knew about Murray but spaced on him. Ramirez is like Sosa in that there were no real extenuating circumstances, but less dramatic.
   35. Walt Davis Posted: November 17, 2023 at 02:56 PM (#6147482)
Wow, 2B looks incredibly thin. Best I've come up with is Placido Polanco with 19 in Det and 22-23 in the NL.
   36. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 17, 2023 at 04:21 PM (#6147488)
Jim Bunning had 30 WAR (rounded up) in each league.
   37. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: November 17, 2023 at 05:01 PM (#6147490)
Jason Kendall has 30.4 NL WAR and 11.2 AL WAR which average to more than 20 in each league.
   38. JJ1986 Posted: November 17, 2023 at 05:02 PM (#6147491)
Francisco Liriano hopefully will get there soon.
   39. Booey Posted: November 17, 2023 at 05:13 PM (#6147492)
#37 - Yogi Berra had 59.6 AL WAR and -0.1 NL WAR, which averages to almost 30 in each league!

Ditto with Mike Piazza and his 59.4 NL WAR and 0.1 AL WAR!
   40. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 17, 2023 at 05:29 PM (#6147493)
Betts can play 2B when he makes the list next year.
   41. Walt Davis Posted: November 18, 2023 at 08:53 PM (#6147586)
And Hank had 142 NL WAR and 0.5 AL WAR which is why the Brewers retired his number.
   42. alilisd Posted: November 19, 2023 at 10:31 AM (#6147618)
Crazy - Bonds had 12 seasons of 8+ WAR, 3 over 10, 5 in the 9's. 7 of those 8+ WAR seasons were pre-PEDs too.


It was Mays who really was shortchanged on the MVP though, at least Bonds won 3 of 4 (and was 2nd once) from 1990-1993. Yes, he got shortchanged in his early 30's, but then won 4 more. Mays had the highest WAR from 1954-1958 in 4 of those 5 seasons with only 1 win and one 2nd. Then 1962-1966 he had the highest WAR every year with only 1 win and one 2nd.
   43. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 19, 2023 at 12:31 PM (#6147621)

It's a sign of how much voting has improved that we used to complain about clearly undeserving people winning the award, and now we complain because someone wasn't unanimous, or about down-ballot voting.

I was a bit surprised when Bonds won the award in 2003. He only played 130 games and had a pretty small lead over Pujols in WAR. I thought the voters might have looked for a reason to give the award to someone else, but Barry won it pretty handily (probably helps that the Giants won 100 games).
   44. jingoist Posted: November 19, 2023 at 01:00 PM (#6147624)
Has any player played in and won more WS than Yogi?
10 rings ( if they gave out rings back in the 1940’s); one for every finger and thumb.
3 MVPs.
It was good to be a Yankee in the 1940’s and 50’s.
   45. Mefisto Posted: November 19, 2023 at 01:03 PM (#6147625)
@42: Just to pile on, in 1956 Mays was tied for first in WAR (with Snyder) at 7.6, but if you carried it out another decimal place Snyder came out on top. Mays finished 17th in the MVP voting that year. He also led the league in 1960 but finished 3d in MVP; and was second in '61 but finished 6th.

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