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Tuesday, November 15, 2005

AJC: Pujols beats out Jones for NL MVP

WOW!  The writers have actually gotten both MVPs right this year!

Andruw Jones led the majors with 51 homers, won his eighth consecutive Gold Glove and led the Braves to a record 14th consecutive division title. That wasn’t enough to win the National League Most Valuable Player award, however.

St. Louis first baseman Albert Pujols, who had finished second to San Francisco’s Barry Bonds the last four seasons, beat out the Braves center fielder.

Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:03 PM | 147 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, cardinals

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   1. Dash Carlyle Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:10 PM (#1732845)
WOW! The writers have actually gotten both MVPs right this year!

Partial credit. Lee was better.
   2. The Keith Law Blog Blah Blah (battlekow) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:10 PM (#1732846)
Well, they didn't get it right, but they didn't get it wrong, either.
   3. G A Delgado Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:10 PM (#1732847)
He deserved it long time ago.

Felicidades Alberto!
   4. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:13 PM (#1732857)
So Jones finished ahead of Lee?
   5. 1k5v3L Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:15 PM (#1732859)
Moses, RTFA :)

"The results was announced Tuesday afternoon by the Baseball Writers' Association of America. Pujols totaled 378 votes to Jones' 351. Chicago Cubs' first baseman Derrek Lee was third with 263 points."
   6. Dash Carlyle Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1732866)
Well, they didn't get it right, but they didn't get it wrong, either.

Agreed. They were arguably a little bit wrong, but they could've been a whole lot wronger.

Peralta not getting any votes is a lot worse.
   7. CFiJ Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:21 PM (#1732871)
Too bad for Derrick "God" Lee. I shudder to think where this Cubs team would have been without him. A lot, lot worse. But I guess he got bit by the bad karma of Sosa's win in 1998.
   8. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:22 PM (#1732874)
Moses, RTFA :)

Oh, I know. It's more of a shock setting in. I expected it, and realized it happenned, I'm still surprised it was that far apart.
   9. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:22 PM (#1732875)
I don't know how this is calculated, but I think both A-Rod and Pujols are now top 20 all time in MVP shares.
   10. jmac66 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:24 PM (#1732881)
But I guess he got bit by the bad karma of Sosa's win in 1998.

they still haven't used up the bad karma from 1987
   11. Kyle S Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:25 PM (#1732882)
I'm glad this happened, if only so I don't have to suffer through 300 consecutive posts of "WRITERZ ARE STOOPID! ANDURW SUXX!!" Sheesh.

Congrats, Albert, you're a hell of a ballplayer.
   12. CraigK Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:25 PM (#1732884)
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   13. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:25 PM (#1732886)
I shudder to think where this Cubs team would have been without him. A lot, lot worse.

I understand what you're saying, but would it have really mattered if the Cubs had finished with 69 wins instead of 79?

I'm probably in a tiny minority around here, but I can understand the argument than an MVP should play for a contender. Shouldn't the extra wins the player provides matter in some way?
   14. CraigK Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:27 PM (#1732887)
YEAH YEAH YEAH YAH YAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYAYY
   15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:27 PM (#1732888)
Complete voting is not yet released, but who is the random player that gets one vote? The Jorge Cantu of the NL if you will. My guess is Wily Tavares or Chad Cordero.
   16. CraigK Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:27 PM (#1732889)
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There; I'm done.
   17. 1k5v3L Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:29 PM (#1732892)
Albert Pujols received 18 of 32 first-place votes to win his first NL MVP award today.
He was second on the other 14 ballots and finished with 378 points. Andruw Jones received 13 first-place votes, 17 seconds and two thirds to end up with 351 points. Derrek Lee received the remaining first- and second-place votes and was third on the remaining 30 ballots, leaving him with 263 points. Following him were Morgan Ensberg (160 points), Miguel Cabrera (146), Carlos Delgado (84), Pat Burrell (65), Chris Carpenter (52), Brian Giles (48) and, remarkably, Jimmy Rollins (45). Jason Bay, who should have ranked no lower than fifth, finished 12th with 41 points. If only he could have put together a hitting streak in September. Rollins, who received one point a year ago after finishing with an 803 OPS, had a 770 OPS this year, yet still ranked ahead of Chase Utley and Jeff Kent. And two of the voters actually decided that Scott Eyre and Jose Reyes (.300 OBP) were the 10th most valuable players in the league. Nov. 15 - 1:55 pm et
   18. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:30 PM (#1732894)
Congrats, Albert, you're a hell of a ballplayer.


Not bad for a 31 year old roid-head.

Best Regards

John

(should I mention that I was kidding or should I just sit back and watch this thread morph into a beast? Decisions, decisions)
   19. 1k5v3L Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:30 PM (#1732895)
Jose Reyes! But not David Wright?! bwahahaha

that's what you get when you have dumb caribbean journalists writing slop
   20. CraigK Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:31 PM (#1732896)
. And two of the voters actually decided that Scott Eyre and Jose Reyes (.300 OBP) were the 10th most valuable players in the league.

I guess Scott Eyre ain't the only one with ADD.
   21. Smitty* Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:32 PM (#1732899)
Scott Eyre, according to Rotoworld
   22. Smitty* Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:32 PM (#1732900)
#21 is in response to #15. The thread is moving fast
   23. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:33 PM (#1732903)
Complete voting is not yet released, but who is the random player that gets one vote? The Jorge Cantu of the NL if you will. My guess is Wily Tavares or Chad Cordero.

I'll go with Pat Burrell or Jake Peavy
   24. DCW3 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:33 PM (#1732904)
My guess is Wily Tavares or Chad Cordero.

I bet Cordero gets more than one vote.

Peralta not getting any votes is a lot worse.

If Peralta gets any votes in the NL, it will be a travesty.

I said in the Celizic/Lee thread that I was in some small way hoping for Andruw to win--you can read the thread for my reasoning--but I can't say I'm not happy for Albert, who is the best player in baseball, regardless of whether he's been the best in any particular year. Now go out and do it again next year, hombre.
   25. DTS Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:33 PM (#1732905)
Complete voting is not yet released, but who is the random player that gets one vote?

Eckstein, Franceuor, or Ausmus.
   26. CFiJ Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:34 PM (#1732906)
I understand what you're saying, but would it have really mattered if the Cubs had finished with 69 wins instead of 79?

To Cubs fans, of course. The Cubs' opponents, hell yes. This isn't a vacuum here. Every Cubs win was a loss for another team. If the Cubs lose ten more games, the standings may have been quite different.

I'm probably in a tiny minority around here, but I can understand the argument than an MVP should play for a contender. Shouldn't the extra wins the player provides matter in some way?

Why do you assume they are extra?
   27. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:34 PM (#1732908)
Who the deuce is Scott Eyre?
   28. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:36 PM (#1732910)
I mean Lee got 1 first and 1 second. At least he wasn't voted 4th or 5th (like he was in the BTF awards).

I have no problem with Pujols winning (and would argue that he should win). And I figured Jones would bet a lot of support, probably enough to put him ahead of Lee overall. But 30 of the 32 voters put Jones ahead of Lee? Wow.
   29. CraigK Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:40 PM (#1732916)
Who the deuce is Scott Eyre


A league-average pitcher (mostly with the Giants) who has ADD.
   30. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:40 PM (#1732918)
Every Cubs win was a loss for another team. If the Cubs lose ten more games, the standings may have been quite different.

Playing spoiler is all well and good, but that doesn't mean very much for the Cubs.

The question then becomes, most valuable to whom? If we take the most common answer (to his team), then we have to acknowledge that the Cubs weren't contenders. Now, that wasn't Lee's fault, but a diamond isn't very valuable if you're trapped on a desert island, either, and that's no fault of the diamond.

I can also see the converse argument, BTW - a player that brings his team from 100 wins to 105 can be seen as not very "valuable", as well.

Why do you assume they are extra?

Perhaps I should have said "marginal".
   31. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:40 PM (#1732920)
What do you get when you cross A-Rod with Pujols?

Two MVP's!

What did you think the answer was? Get your mind out of the gutter, this is the new and improved Primer with 40% more righteousness!

Best Regards

John
   32. Bob T Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:41 PM (#1732922)
Scott Eyre, aka the Giants reliever who doesn't suck.
   33. 1k5v3L Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:41 PM (#1732923)
second, third, what does it matter?
   34. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:42 PM (#1732927)
I understand what you're saying, but would it have really mattered if the Cubs had finished with 69 wins instead of 79?

Absolutely. A 69-win Cub team might be looking at a new manager for 2006 instead of a manager in search of a contract extension. Lee picked the worst possible time to have a season for the ages.
   35. DCW3 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:43 PM (#1732929)
A league-average pitcher (mostly with the Giants) who has ADD.

"Wow! I can't believe I got an MVP vote! This is the happiest day of my--wow! A squirrel!"

(My apologies to anyone with AD[H]D, but at least you won't be offended for very long.)
   36. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:45 PM (#1732932)
pitcher (mostly with the Giants) who has ADD

Everybody does these days.

Oh, here is another story on CNNSI's baseball page-new steroid penalty.
   37. and Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:45 PM (#1732933)
Too bad for Derrick "God" Lee. I shudder to think where this Cubs team would have been without him. A lot, lot worse. But I guess he got bit by the bad karma of Sosa's win in 1998.

Actually, it could be argued that Derrick Lee set the Cubs back tremendously. If Lee is the average Lee and the Cubs win 70 instead of 80, Baker gets fired. The offense looks inept enough for no one to not notice so Neifi isn't re-signed. The GM is either retained with the understanding that work needs to be done or he's fired and Theo Epstein hired.

No, Lee's "great" season didn't even bring the Cubs a 500 record and may well have prevented such a record for the next two years. He gets no vote from me.
   38. and Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:46 PM (#1732936)
I've clearly been talking to UCCF too much. :)
   39. Danny Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:49 PM (#1732943)
Maybe a writer reads BPro. Eyre led the NL in ARP.
   40. jmac66 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:51 PM (#1732948)
Complete voting is not yet released, but who is the random player that gets one vote?

Cesar Tovar
   41. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:52 PM (#1732949)
I felt Lee was a bit better than Albert this year, but it's close enough, and Pujols has been so good over his career, that I can't get worked up about a borderline injustice.

I actually had my IBA top four as (1) Lee, (2) Clemens, (3) Pujols, (4) Jason Bay.

I understand what you're saying, but would it have really mattered if the Cubs had finished with 69 wins instead of 79?
To Cubs fans, of course. The Cubs' opponents, hell yes. This isn't a vacuum here. Every Cubs win was a loss for another team. If the Cubs lose ten more games, the standings may have been quite different.


I think that's a great point. Lee played games that mattered a great deal; they may not have mattered in the scope of the postseason chances of his team, but they mattered to his team's opponents, and in turn their own rivals.
   42. VoiceOfUnreason Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:52 PM (#1732952)
   43. Artie Ziff Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:54 PM (#1732957)
Tough call between Jones and Pujols. Obviously you could not go wrong with either of those stars. Great seasons.
   44. Laughing Goat Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:54 PM (#1732958)
30 of 32 humaniods like to count homers and not actual productivity. Its not like any of the voting made any sense. D. Lee did more to win ball games than Jones by a laughable margin. I mean, whats the difference bet Jones and chase utley? jones and ensberg? both real close in Vorp and win shares.

The diff is D.Lee was bett6er than all of them. Losing to Pujols is understandable, third behiind jones is an atrocity
   45. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:55 PM (#1732964)
I'm probably in a tiny minority around here, but I can understand the argument than an MVP should play for a contender. Shouldn't the extra wins the player provides matter in some way?

The extra wins provided to a contending team are provided by the other players on the team.
   46. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:57 PM (#1732966)
Eckstein got a 6th place vote?!? Ha.
   47. Rodder Posted: November 15, 2005 at 07:57 PM (#1732967)
Abreau is fourth on his team in MVP voting?
   48. Jack Sommers Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:01 PM (#1732971)
Abreau is fourth on his team in MVP voting?

I was about to say something about how maybe the writers were finally getter smarter about all of this, and then I read #47. Guess not.

Anyway, glad to be wrong. I really thought the writers would give it to Andruw and it would not be all that close.
   49. Rodder Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:02 PM (#1732974)
Abreau is fourth on his team in MVP voting?

Maybe 'cuz his name is so hard to spell.

Abreu.
   50. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:06 PM (#1732983)
Jose Reyes! But not David Wright?! bwahahaha

Wright got 18 points.

An 8th and 9th place vote for Griffey?
   51. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:10 PM (#1732991)
I've clearly been talking to UCCF too much. :)

I have infected the group with my thoughts. My work here is done.
   52. SouthSideRyan Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:13 PM (#1732993)
Only 2 others appears on 20+ ballots. Cabrera and Ensberg each appeared on 28.

And why is Pujols pushing his team to an 11 game lead in the Central instead of a smaller lead any more valuable than Lee pushing his team to 79 wins? Value to a team shouldn't matter how good the team wound up being. They're still valuable to the team.
   53. Curtis Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:15 PM (#1732996)
ITS ABOUT TIME!
   54. Bad Doctor Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:17 PM (#1732998)
.
.
Pat Burrell
.
.
Jimmy Rollins
.
.
Chase Utley
.
.
Bobby Abreu

The hell? ... is my monitor upside down?

And that Trevor Hoffman 4th-place vote might even trump the lone Scott Eyre vote for entertainment value.
   55. phredbird Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:23 PM (#1733002)
sorry to blow my own horn, but i predicted this yesterday. to the writers, albert, derek and andruw were bunched close enough that it didn't mattter who won, so they gave albert a 'catch-up' mvp.
also: i know derek was more productive at the plate than jones, but geez. a centerfielder who can hit 50 home runs? how much more productive was lee? was it by that much that he's considered more valuable this season?
   56. Rusty Priske Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:23 PM (#1733006)
Tough call between Jones and Pujols. Obviously you could not go wrong with either of those stars. Great seasons.


Of course there was someone else who had a better season than either of them.

I begrudgingly admit that Pujols is not a terrible pick. Jones would have been an awful choice... not because he is bad (he clearly isn't), but because there are others obviously more qualified.
   57. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:28 PM (#1733019)
And why is Pujols pushing his team to an 11 game lead in the Central instead of a smaller lead any more valuable than Lee pushing his team to 79 wins?

It isn't, necessarily. If you can argue that the Cards would have easily taken the division even without Pujols, maybe you can argue that he shouldn't be MVP.

If the Cubs make the playoff, or even have a near-miss (say, get knocked out in the last week or so), I think we're not even having this conversation - Lee wins hands-down. But they didn't - they finished in fourth place. Sure, they probably would have finished in fifth place without him, but who cares?

Hey, I know the feeling - I watched Frank Thomas put up huge numbers for mediocre White Sox teams in the mid-nineties, and finish way down in MVP balloting. Frank's my favorite player, but he was wasted on those teams.
   58. DCA Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:29 PM (#1733021)
Maybe a writer reads BPro. Eyre led the NL in ARP.

I actually like this idea. Use the 10 spot on your MVP ballot to recognize the best non-closer RP in the league, if he's any good -- these guys get no recognition, and aren't really in the argument for CY or MVP because of their low innings pitched and not particularly high leverage index. Plus a #10 vote isn't going to determine the winner, so it's really not that important. But they do deserve some recognition.
   59. rdfc Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:33 PM (#1733031)
This won't line up, but it'll be readable, I think
Results
Player, Team 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th Total
Albert Pujols, St. Louis 18 14 -- -- -- -- -- - -- - 378
Andruw Jones, Atlanta 13 17 2 -- -- -- -- -- -- - 351
Derrek Lee, Chicago 1 1 30 -- -- -- -- -- -- - 263
Morgan Ensberg, Houston -- -- -- 10 7 7 2 1 1 -- 160
Miguel Cabrera, Florida -- -- -- 13 4 1 2 3 4 1 146
Carlos Delgado, Florida -- -- -- 2 6 2 4 2 1 -- 84
Pat Burrell, Philadelphia -- -- -- -- 4 6 1 -- 3 1 65
Chris Carpenter, St. Louis -- -- -- 1 3 3 1 2 1 -- 52
Brian Giles, San Diego -- -- -- 1 2 2 2 1 2 4 48
Jimmy Rollins, Philadelphia -- -- -- 2 1 -- 2 4 1 3 45
Dontrelle Willis, Florida -- -- -- -- 2 3 2 1 2 -- 42
Jason Bay, Pittsburgh -- -- -- 1 -- 1 4 1 5 -- 41
Chase Utley, Philadelphia -- -- -- -- -- 2 2 -- 1 2 22
Lance Berkman, Houston -- -- -- 1 -- 1 1 3 1 -- 21
Bobby Abreu, Philadelphia -- -- -- -- 1 1 1 2 -- -- 21
Chad Cordero, Washington -- -- -- -- -- 1 2 -- 2 4 21
Trevor Hoffman, San Diego -- -- -- 1 -- -- 2 1 -- 1 19
Carlos Lee, Milwaukee -- -- -- -- -- 1 1 2 1 2 19
Jeff Kent, Los Angeles -- -- -- -- 1 1 -- 2 -- 1 18
David Wright, New York -- -- -- -- 1 -- 1 2 -- 2 18
David Eckstein, St. Louis -- -- -- -- -- 1 2 -- -- 2 15
Roger Clemens, Houston -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 1 -- 8
Roy Oswalt, Houston -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 1 1 6
Ken Griffey Jr., Cincinnati -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 1 -- 5
Andy Pettitte, Houston -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 2 1 5
Jim Edmonds, St. Louis -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 -- -- 3
Cliff Floyd, New York -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 -- -- 3
Marcus Giles, Atlanta -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 -- -- 3
Adam Dunn, Cincinnati -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 3 3
Scott Eyre, San Francisco -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
Brad Lidge, Houston -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
Jose Reyes, New York -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 1 1
   60. Boots Day Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:34 PM (#1733033)
If I'm reading this right, the same three players finished in the top three spaces on every single ballot. Has that ever happened before?
   61. VoiceOfUnreason Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:36 PM (#1733039)
What's the lowest vote that's been awarded to an MVP in the last 20 years? Is there a database with the voting somewhere (bb-ref shows points, but not ballots)?
   62. Boots Day Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:36 PM (#1733041)
Before anybody makes any wisecracks, I posted that seconds before rdfc's chart went up.
   63. Boots Day Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:39 PM (#1733048)
Voice, you might want to start with Ivan Rodriguez in 1999. He had just a 0.64 share of the vote, and finished second in first-place votes (to Pedro Martinez).
   64. Old Matt Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:44 PM (#1733058)
David Wright got jobbed in the voting.
   65. SouthSideRyan Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:45 PM (#1733061)
I'm not really taking issue with you JRE, just the logic of the voters. According to that it seems the only teams that could've had MVPs were the Braves, Astros, and Phillies for sure, and maybe it could be stretched to Padres, D-Backs, Marlins, and Mets. That's absolutely ridiculous, to arbitrarily say that over half the players in the NL cannot possibly be the Most Valuable Player in the league.
   66. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:49 PM (#1733069)
To me, the biggest surprise by far was that Jason Bay was 12th, placed on only 12 ballots and with only 2 votes higher than 7th.

I would have placed him no lower than 6th, and quite possibly as high as 4th.
   67. Chris L Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:52 PM (#1733080)
Albert Pujols is a defensible selection although I would have given the nod to Derek Lee. Their numbers were close enough, however, to make it understandable that the guy who helped his team finish first in their division came out with the hardware. I was glad to see that Andruw Jones and his .263 batting average did not win the award.
   68. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:54 PM (#1733082)
No way Jason Bay was only the 12th-best player in the NL last year.
   69. Ienpw Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:57 PM (#1733087)
I understand what you're saying, but would it have really mattered if the Cubs had finished with 69 wins instead of 79?

Yes! The Cubs would probably be the odds on favorite to draft Andrew Miller if he gets Boras as his adviser.
   70. Johnny Tuttle Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:58 PM (#1733092)
With Bay today and Peralta yesterday, I wonder if the treatment of these players means that the writers are loathe to reward a guy who hasn't been doing it for a while. I don't agree, but that seems to be the case.
   71. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 08:58 PM (#1733094)
Thanks for the backup, dJf.

To me, it's aggravating that he finished in back of Cabrera, and it's mind-boggling that he ended up behind Burrell. There isn't even one facet of the game in which Burrell was better than Bay last year. He didn't hit for more power, he didn't hit for a better average, he didn't get on base more often, he didn't run the bases more effectively, and he didn't play better defense. Nothin'. He didn't even play for a playoff team, so you can't use that stupid non-playoff-games-don't-count logic here.
   72. Shalimar Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:01 PM (#1733097)
"Wow! I can't believe I got an MVP vote! This is the happiest day of my--wow! A squirrel!"

(My apologies to anyone with AD[H]D, but at least you won't be offended for very long.)


Q: How many kids with ADD does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: Mmmmm, cookies.

(Yes, I have ADD, but it's still funny)
   73. rdfc Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:03 PM (#1733102)
The big differences between the IBA voting and the BBWAA voting

Clemens finished 17 places higher in the IBA voting
Wright finished 12 places higher in the IBA voting
Dunn finished 11 places higher in the IBA voting
Pedro finished at least 11 places higher in the IBA voting
Edmonds finished 10 places higher in the IBA voting
Helton finished at least 10 places higher in the IBA voting
Bay finished 4th in the IBA voting and 12th in the BBWAA voting

*Jose Reyes finished 37 places higher in the BBWAA voting
Trevor Hoffman finished 33 places higher in the BBWAA voting
*Scott Eyre finished 18 places higher in the BBWAA voting
Pat Burrell finished 17 places higher in the BBWAA voting
David Eckstein finished 15 places higher in the BBWAA voting
Jimmy Rollins finished 15 places higher in the BBWAA voting
Chad Cordero finished 14 places higher in the BBWAA voting

*- These two were on only 1 BBWAA ballot, do don't take them very seriously
   74. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:05 PM (#1733105)
also: i know derek was more productive at the plate than jones, but geez. a centerfielder who can hit 50 home runs? how much more productive was lee? was it by that much that he's considered more valuable this season?

Only by every metric that's been posted here (most of which also have Lee marginally ahead of Pujols). The majority of them don't have Jones even in the top 5.

It wasn't close between Lee/Pujols and Jones. I can't fault people who voted for Pujols (in a close race, team stuff is as good a tiebreaker as anything else), but Jones over Lee is just awful.
   75. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:06 PM (#1733107)
I'm not really taking issue with you JRE, just the logic of the voters.

Hey, at least Lee finished third.

In 1995, Frank Thomas had basically the same season with the bat as Lee just had, and finished eighth, behind -

Mo Vaughn (.306 EQA)
Albert Belle (.336 EQA)
Edgar Martinez (.357 EQA)
Jose Mesa
Jay Buhner (.288 EQA)
Randy Johnson
Tim Salmon (.328 EQA)

Thomas had a .350 EQA. Martinez was probably better, but Thomas was clearly being held back by his team, which finished with a .472 winning percentage. By comparison, Lee got a lot of support from the writers.
   76. oscarmadisox Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:11 PM (#1733111)
Three writers voted for Adam Dunn. Three?
   77. oscarmadisox Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:12 PM (#1733112)
Three writers voted for Adam Dunn. Three?
   78. Boots Day Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:14 PM (#1733119)
With Bay today and Peralta yesterday, I wonder if the treatment of these players means that the writers are loathe to reward a guy who hasn't been doing it for a while.

I think it's more likely that the voters are loathe to vote for a guy if they don't really know who he is.
   79. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:23 PM (#1733134)
Rollins 10th is pretty ridiculous. If you have your hot streak in September, even if your team doesn't make the playoffs, it counts more!
   80. AndrewJ Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:24 PM (#1733136)
NOBODY voted for Pedro?
   81. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:25 PM (#1733138)
And two of the voters actually decided that Scott Eyre and Jose Reyes (.300 OBP) were the 10th most valuable players in the league.

The votes for 8th, 9th and 10th place are irrelevant.

I always felt Edgar got jobbed in '95. He carried the offense without Junior and pre-A-rod. Belle was close.
   82. Mug is the antichrist to you Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:28 PM (#1733142)
NOBODY voted for Pedro?

All those t-shirts were a waste.
   83. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:28 PM (#1733144)
"Three writers voted for Adam Dunn. Three?"
I guess that's just how they were raised.

My "ballot" had Pujols first, Lee 2nd - but it's still neat how Lee can win the Silver Slugger *and* Gold Glove at first over Pujols, but loses out on MVP.
   84. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:32 PM (#1733151)
Good news. The Yahoo Sports poll that pronounced that Papi got robbed (by a 51-49 percent margin) says Albert is deserving (51 percent to Jones 30 and Lee 19).
   85. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:37 PM (#1733159)
I can't fault people who voted for Pujols (in a close race, team stuff is as good a tiebreaker as anything else), but Jones over Lee is just awful.

Based on the voting, here's how the top of the ballot went:

17 ballots had Pujols/Jones/Lee
13 ballots had Jones/Pujols/Lee
1 ballot had Pujols/Lee/Jones
1 ballot had Lee/Pujols/Jones
   86. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:44 PM (#1733168)
Congrats to Pujols and I hope Derrek can repeat his 2005 in some distant future when the team can help him out.
   87. NetOwl Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:46 PM (#1733175)
I may be biased, but I really think the Cubs deserved to miss out on an MVP they should have gotten. 1998 still bothers me a little.
   88. Fred Garvin is dead to Mug Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:53 PM (#1733183)
There isn't even one facet of the game in which Burrell was better than Bay last year. He didn't hit for more power, he didn't hit for a better average, he didn't get on base more often, he didn't run the bases more effectively, and he didn't play better defense. Nothin'. He didn't even play for a playoff team, so you can't use that stupid non-playoff-games-don't-count logic here.

Burrell's team was one game out of the wild card -- that's it.
   89. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:54 PM (#1733184)
I may be biased, but I really think the Cubs deserved to miss out on an MVP they should have gotten. 1998 still bothers me a little.

You're making this even more of a team-based awards than the voters are.
   90. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:56 PM (#1733190)
1 ballot had Pujols/Lee/Jones
1 ballot had Lee/Pujols/Jones


I would guess (hope) these are the two Chicago writers, though I'm kind of disappointed that Lee couldn't at least get two first place votes from his hometown.
   91. sunnyday2 Posted: November 15, 2005 at 09:59 PM (#1733196)
1995...was that the year that Belle was ineligible for MVP because the Indians woulda made the playoffs without him?

So if an MVP year is about 10 wins (WARP or VORP) or whatever, every player on a team more than 10 games ahead or behind the wild card is bullshit. Do I understand this right?

>That's absolutely ridiculous, to arbitrarily say that over half the players in the NL cannot possibly be the Most Valuable Player in the league.

Exactamente.
   92. Internet Commenter Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:02 PM (#1733203)
Ridiculous.

The Cards don't pay Pujols for his April-September or his individual accomplishments.
   93. Moses Taylor loves a good maim Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:04 PM (#1733208)
Who are the Chicago voters?
   94. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:04 PM (#1733210)
I always felt Edgar got jobbed in '95. He carried the offense without Junior and pre-A-rod.

What are you talking about? He was protected by Jay Buhner! Jay Buhner!
   95. danup Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:05 PM (#1733211)
Man, that's a lot of money to pay a guy for a maximum of nineteen games that may or may not happen.
   96. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:07 PM (#1733213)
The Cards don't pay Pujols for his April-September or his individual accomplishments.

And yet they insist on playing him all year despite the physical grind that affects his performance in the postseason.
   97. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:10 PM (#1733220)
So if an MVP year is about 10 wins (WARP or VORP) or whatever, every player on a team more than 10 games ahead or behind the wild card is ####. Do I understand this right?

Wow, talk about beating up a straw man.

There's a lot of wiggle room between (swear word) and MVP.

Look, all I'm saying is that the team's final record should be taken into consideration. Context exists, and if you're making an analysis of how "valuable" a player is, you need to do more than just rank them by VORP or EQA or whatever.

At least in my opinion. What the hell do I know?
   98. Dr. Vaux Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:25 PM (#1733244)
I think Robert S's comment was a parody of the Alex Rodriguez-bashing by dumb "fans."
   99. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:26 PM (#1733248)
also: i know derek was more productive at the plate than jones, but geez. a centerfielder who can hit 50 home runs? how much more productive was lee? was it by that much that he's considered more valuable this season?

Lee had 106 VORP compared to Jones'60.9. Keep in mind that Jones' replacement level was a replacement level CF, and Lee's was a replacement level 1B.

Batting lines
Lee: .335/.418/.662
Jones: 263/.347/.575
   100. Boots Day Posted: November 15, 2005 at 10:30 PM (#1733255)
Who are the Chicago voters?

Dead people.
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