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Tuesday, November 09, 2010

AL Gold Glove winners named

C: Joe Mauer (3rd award)
1B: Mark Teixeira (4th)
2B: Robinson Cano (1st)
3B: Evan Longoria (2nd)
SS: Derek Jeter (5th)
OF: Carl Crawford (1st)
OF: Franklin Gutierrez (1st)
OF: Ichiro Suzuki (10th)

The District Attorney Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:38 PM | 93 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: awards, special topics

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   1. Posada Posse Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:49 PM (#3686848)
SS: Derek Jeter (5th)


Ugh. Now I guess Jeter can "justify" getting $20 million/year on his contract.
   2. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:51 PM (#3686851)
Jeter's now won more gold gloves than all but four other shortstops. Sad but true.
   3. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:52 PM (#3686852)
That's pretty good, right? Largely a deserving list.
   4. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:54 PM (#3686855)
A-Rod got robbed. Posada, too.
   5. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:54 PM (#3686856)
Except for the Yankees it is a pretty good list.
   6. SoSH U at work Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:54 PM (#3686858)
Buehrle also won. Of course, Buehrle may be the first player in history to clinch an award on Opening Day.
   7. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:55 PM (#3686861)
I just don't understand why these things wind me up as much as they do, but man I hate it when the awards are this badly decided.
   8. vortex of dissipation Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:55 PM (#3686860)
You know what's good about this list? One left fielder, one center fielder, one right fielder.
   9. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:55 PM (#3686863)
A-Rod got robbed.


Posada too.
   10. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:56 PM (#3686864)
Damn your oily hide for making me click on an ESPN link to find out there was a pitcher.
   11. JustMe Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:57 PM (#3686866)
The Yankees new great outfield defense resulted in 3 gold gloves. For...the...infield?

The mind boggles.
   12. RJ in TO Posted: November 09, 2010 at 08:59 PM (#3686869)
That's pretty good, right? Largely a deserving list.

Largely, yes. The only complete laugher on there is Jeter. The other who probably didn't deserve it at least are plausible candidates.
   13. BDC Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:00 PM (#3686870)
Except for the Yankees it is a pretty good list

I don't know if Cano is a terrible choice, though. Not a lot of the good 2B in the AL got a lot of playing time this year. Cano was at least out there everyday doing a pretty solid job.

I love the link opposite Jeter's name on B-Ref at the moment, Sean.
   14. RJ in TO Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:00 PM (#3686871)
You know what's good about this list? One left fielder, one center fielder, one right fielder.

It is a nice change from how these things usually go.
   15. The Original SJ Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:01 PM (#3686876)
I am glad both Cano and Guitierrez were recognized by their peers.

I believe Andrus was the finest SS I have seen all year, he'll get his next year.
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:04 PM (#3686878)
I am glad both Cano and Guitierrez were recognized by their peers.


They weren't, other than a "Hey, isn't that Cano" sort of way.
   17. Famous Original Joe C Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:04 PM (#3686879)
I don't know if Cano is a terrible choice, though. Not a lot of the good 2B in the AL got a lot of playing time this year. Cano was at least out there everyday doing a pretty solid job.

He might not be the best choice, but he's not a terrible choice or anything. Like Ryan said, you can make a case for others at several positions, but only Jeter is egregious.

Worse pick for gold glove - Rafael Palmeiro in 1999 or Derek Jeter in 2010?
   18. You can keep your massive haul Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:05 PM (#3686882)
Torii Hunter didn't get his 10th in a row (not suprisingly). As an A's fan I would have liked Barton at 1B.
   19. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:06 PM (#3686883)
I love the link opposite Jeter's name on B-Ref at the moment, Sean.


I should take it down, but like I said this stuff chaps my hide.
   20. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:06 PM (#3686884)
Kurt Suzuki, Daric Barton, Cliff Pennington, and Kevin Kouzmanoff were robbed.

ROBBED.
   21. Accent Shallow only believes what it believes Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:07 PM (#3686885)
Palmeiro. Jeter at least played the position.
   22. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:07 PM (#3686887)
I believe Andrus was the finest SS I have seen all year, he'll get his next year.

Why should he have to wait? If he was the best fielding SS this year he should have gotten the award this year.

The Jeter award is a complete ####### joke. Just do away with the damn things at this point; clearly they're meaningless.
   23. Gamingboy Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:08 PM (#3686888)
Worse pick for gold glove - Rafael Palmeiro in 1999 or Derek Jeter in 2010?


I was going to check on Fangraphs, then I remembered Palmeiro only played, like, a month's worth of games at 1B that year. At least Jeter was actually out there attempting to field.
   24. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:08 PM (#3686890)
I would be willing to bet that if they voted after the WS, Elvis Andrus would have won.
   25. JustMe Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:09 PM (#3686893)
Sean, is there a way to see a list of pages on bbref by page views?
   26. Stevis Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:09 PM (#3686894)
Jeter. Palmeiro at least didn't do any damage.
   27. The Republic of Dresses Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:09 PM (#3686896)
You know what's good about this list? One left fielder, one center fielder, one right fielder.

That's a failing of the list. If they want to change things so that the awards are for left, right and center, that's fine. But as long as the award is supposed to go to the three best outfielders, corner men basically have no business being in the running unless they're true center fielders being pushed to right by an entrenched Willie Mays or something.
   28. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:10 PM (#3686897)
Sean, is there a way to see a list of pages on bbref by page views?


Go to the leaders section
   29. Cowboy Popup Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:10 PM (#3686899)
I believe Andrus was the finest SS I have seen all year, he'll get his next year.

I'm kinda shocked he wasn't picked. I thought after his first trip around the league, the coaches would be ready for him this year.

They weren't, other than in some sort of "Hey, isn't that Cano" sort of way.

I have a really hard time believing UZR is right about Cano. Fangraphs' DRS has him at +7 so its not like no system likes him. This is the first time in 5 years TZ hasn't thought he was a well above average 2nd baseman. I'm gonna go ahead and say Cano is a totally defensible choice and quite possibly the best choice given that the other AL candidates have all rated as negative defenders at times over the past few years.
   30. You can keep your massive haul Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:13 PM (#3686903)
EDIT: Double Post DOH!!
   31. JustMe Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:13 PM (#3686904)
Sean, is there a way to see a list of pages on bbref by page views?



Go to the leaders section



Thanks. If they gave away Nobel prizes in baseball data presentation, they would name the award after you. How's that for a compliment?
   32. SoSH U at work Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:14 PM (#3686905)
I have a really hard time believing UZR is right about Cano. Fangraphs' DRS has him at +7 so its not like no system likes him. This is the first time in 5 years TZ hasn't thought he was a well above average 2nd baseman. I'm gonna go ahead and say Cano is a totally defensible choice and quite possibly the best choice given that the other AL candidates have all rated as negative defenders at times over the past couple of years.


I was refuting the statement they were judged by their peers (unless you consider one's bosses as peers), not their worthiness for the particular honor.
   33. Gamingboy Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:15 PM (#3686906)

Thanks. If they gave away Nobel prizes in baseball data presentation, they would name the award after you. How's that for a compliment?

I can outcompliment you: Forman for HOF!
   34. Cowboy Popup Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:16 PM (#3686907)
I was refuting the statement they were judged by their peers (unless you consider one's bosses as peers), not their worthiness for the particular honor.

Oh I see. Whoops! Well, I'm sure my statement will preempt someone complaining that a Yankee with a slightly negative UZR won the gold glove (if the thread ever gets past the Jeter).
   35. Randy Jones Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:17 PM (#3686909)
corner men basically have no business being in the running unless they're true center fielders


You mean like Ichiro and Crawford? Also, Brett Gardner was robbed.
   36. GuyM Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:17 PM (#3686910)
AL teams allowed a batting average of .231 on groundballs this year. The Yankees allowed a BA on GBs of .247. That is extremely hard to do with 3 gold glovers in the IF. Man, A-Rod must really suck.....
   37. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:18 PM (#3686911)
Even if you stick to conventional stats, Alexei Ramirez made 200 more plays than Jeter did.
   38. HarryAbles Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:18 PM (#3686912)
Most GG by a SS:

Ozzie - 13 GG/202 fielding runs during those years, per BB-REF
Vizquel - 11/47
Aparicio - 9/108
Belanger - 8/181
Concepcion - 5/49
Jeter - 5/-9
   39. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:20 PM (#3686915)
I think I hate Jeter more because of something out of his control - the Tobacco-Industry-Before-Congress-level-BS Gold Gloves - than for anything he's done, or even for being a Yankee.
   40. Danny Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:21 PM (#3686917)
Mark Ellis led AL 2B in UZR for the third time in the past four years. But if he didn't bring home a GG the year he set the single season fielding percentage record, he wasn't going to do so this year.
   41. The District Attorney Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:22 PM (#3686918)
I forgot they pick a pitcher; sorry about the omission.

I actually do think that public opinion on Jeter's defense has shifted well past the point that writers would be willing to vote for someone else. I think that Jeter has essentially lucked out, insofar as there simply isn't an obvious heir apparent, or at least one that Joe Bench Coach would be itching to vote for.

There were only nine AL shortstops with enough PA to qualify for the batting title.

Alexei Ramirez: UZR +10.8, +/- +16
Cliff Pennington: UZR +8.8, +/- +9
Cesar Izturis: UZR +5.1, +/- +3
Elvis Andrus: UZR +0.1, +/- +1
Erick Aybar: UZR -2.0, +/- 0
Marco Scutaro: UZR -2.9, +/- -7
Derek Jeter: UZR -4.7, +/- -13
Yuniesky Betancourt: UZR -9.5, +/- -21
Jason Bartlett: UZR -10.4, +/- +2

Alexei and Pennington were surely better fielders than Jeter this past year, but I certainly never heard anyone raving about their defensive brilliance. I'm not surprised the voters didn't flock to them. And honestly, I don't think we'll end up looking back at baseball history and considering it a travesty that Alexei Ramirez or Cliff Pennington never won a Gold Glove. I guess you could have given it to Izturis, who does have a good rep, but he had a 545 OPS on a 66-win team, and that doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have voted for Jeter... but you can totally see how it happened. Someone needs to step up and claim the crown. (presumably Elvis)
   42. Steve Treder Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:22 PM (#3686919)
If they want to change things so that the awards are for left, right and center, that's fine. But as long as the award is supposed to go to the three best outfielders, corner men basically have no business being in the running unless they're true center fielders being pushed to right by an entrenched Willie Mays or something.

Heartily agreed.
   43. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:24 PM (#3686921)
Also, Brett Gardner was robbed.

As were Curtis Granderson and Nick Swisher.
   44. Swedish Chef Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:25 PM (#3686922)
Go to the leaders section

Brian Falkenborg?
   45. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:25 PM (#3686924)
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have voted for Jeter... but you can totally see how it happened. Someone needs to step up and claim the crown. (presumably Elvis)

How does one go about "stepping up," besides playing great defense? "Play shortstop for the Yankees" is already taken.
   46. Swedish Chef Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:27 PM (#3686926)
Of course Jeter won the Gold Glove, lousy hitting SS must be glove men, right?
   47. Rusty Priske Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:30 PM (#3686928)
You know what's good about this list? One left fielder, one center fielder, one right fielder.


I was surprised that this was Carl Crowford's first GG, bu tthis is exactly why. Normally being the best fielding left fielder won't win you the award.
   48. tfbg9 Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:31 PM (#3686929)
Jeter won why? .989 baby, that's why. Highest FP of AL qualifier SS's. Duh!
   49. The Original SJ Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:34 PM (#3686931)
Why should he have to wait? If he was the best fielding SS this year he should have gotten the award this year.


We live in a unfair and unjust world. The mere fact that we can get up in the morning and keep moving forward is a miracle. I have faith major league baseball players ability to recognize Elvus soon enough.

They weren't, other than in some sort of "Hey, isn't that Cano" sort of way

No, Cano plays a very impressive second base, he played nearly every game there, he ranges behind second often, and has the arm to convert some balls once he gets to them. In addition, he makes the turn at second like no one else, with a lightning fast catch and release from the throw coming from short or second.

It is very easy to see why other players would recognize Cano this season.
   50. Randy Jones Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:36 PM (#3686932)
Also, Brett Gardner was robbed.

As were Curtis Granderson and Nick Swisher.


Haha, you so funny!!!! No, Gardner should have been playing CF instead of Granderson and was better in LF than Crawford.
   51. Adam B. Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:37 PM (#3686934)
[OT]Sean, why did the Oswalt-Happ trade generate such a massive hit count? Were there particular links which directed massive traffic? [/OT]

Jeter stinks.
   52. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:42 PM (#3686939)
Jeter won why?


No one gets to the ball better ... once it has stopped rolling.
   53. The Original SJ Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:43 PM (#3686940)
Mark Ellis led AL 2B in UZR for the third time in the past four years. But if he didn't bring home a GG the year he set the single season fielding percentage record, he wasn't going to do so this year.

He doesn't play enough.
   54. Barold Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:43 PM (#3686941)
Fielding% seems to have been the main basis obviously

among players with >120 games

C: Joe Mauer (3rd award) - Fielding% #1
1B: Mark Teixeira (4th) - #1
2B: Robinson Cano (1st) - #1
3B: Evan Longoria (2nd) - #5
SS: Derek Jeter (5th) - #1
OF: Carl Crawford (1st) - #7 (#3 as LF)
OF: Franklin Gutierrez (1st) #1 (#1 as CF
OF: Ichiro Suzuki (10th) - #12 (#3 as RF)
   55. Lassus Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:43 PM (#3686942)
Sean, is there a way to see a list of pages on bbref by page views?
Go to the leaders section


Man, I need to up my Benny Agbayani clicks.
   56. Sean Forman Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:44 PM (#3686943)
In addition, he makes the turn at second like no one else, with a lightning fast catch and release from the throw coming from short or second.


Is this really true? Beckham and Hill had nearly as many turns if a lot fewer plays in the field.
   57. Nasty Nate Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:46 PM (#3686945)
Fielding% seems to have been the main basis obviously


I thought hitting ability was the main basis.
   58. HGM Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:50 PM (#3686951)
Is there any award where there is more misunderstanding over who votes for it than Gold Gloves?

I've seen "players" and "writers" mentioned, and neither have a say. It's "managers and coaches."
   59. Rally Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:51 PM (#3686952)
Brett Gardner was robbed. No left fielder gets to as many grounders to short as Brett does.
   60. Steve Treder Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:53 PM (#3686955)
In addition, he makes the turn at second like no one else, with a lightning fast catch and release from the throw coming from short or second.


Is this really true? Beckham and Hill had nearly as many turns if a lot fewer plays in the field.

DPT per inning:

Beckham .055
Hill .053
Cano .046
   61. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:56 PM (#3686957)
Hard to turn 2 if your SS can't get to the ball...
   62. Greg Goosen at 30 Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:56 PM (#3686958)
Not only is Jeter's great defense recognized by the voters, he teaches Cano how to win a GG. Clearly this man deserves a pay raise.

There are plenty of writers who tell us how they voted for HOF, Mvp, Cy Young but do any managers or coaches reveal their votes?
   63. Ray (CTL) Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:58 PM (#3686959)
You know what's good about this list? One left fielder, one center fielder, one right fielder.


You must have missed a memo. Ichiro is considered a CF.
   64. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:58 PM (#3686961)
[OT]Sean, why did the Oswalt-Happ trade generate such a massive hit count? Were there particular links which directed massive traffic? [/OT]

Funny, I sponsored Oswalt's page from the first time Sean allowed them until this past year, just before he shot up to become the #2 most popular page.
   65. The Original SJ Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:59 PM (#3686962)
Do you think any manager or coach know how many DPs per inning Beckham has vs. Cano?

No, Cano makes the play like no one else, he stands straight up and flings the ball sidearmed with little to no weight distribution. It is flashy, and you can understand the kind of impression it makes. The style is unlike anyone else.

also, and I don't know, and I don't particularly care, but if Jeter really is the worst SS in the league, wouldn't that hurt Cano's DP numbers?
   66. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: November 09, 2010 at 09:59 PM (#3686964)
Wow, I had never heard of Cliff Pennington before reading this thread. And I had no idea Cesar Izturis was still a full-time starter.
   67. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: November 09, 2010 at 10:06 PM (#3686970)
Ichiro is considered a CF.


Hall of Fame CF Ray. Hall of Fame CF.

In fairness to the GG voters I would bet that less than 30 minutes was spent among the 14 AL Managers filling out their ballot. I assume they spend roughly the same amount of time on that process as they do autographing baseballs.
   68. Lassus Posted: November 09, 2010 at 10:10 PM (#3686972)
Maybe this this vote was a conspiracy by the managers and players to hamstring the Yankees with an even uglier Jeter contract.
   69. Greg K Posted: November 09, 2010 at 10:25 PM (#3686981)
Wow, I had never heard of Cliff Pennington before reading this thread. And I had no idea Cesar Izturis was still a full-time starter.

I believe Pennington led AL SS in WAR this year. Or maybe Alex Gonzalez beat him, I forget how he split his between AL and NL.
   70. Zac Schmitt Posted: November 09, 2010 at 10:32 PM (#3686986)
Ever notice Jeter almost always makes the play on balls he gets to? It seems to me that voters are fooled, if you will, by the fact that Jeter makes plays on just about every ball he gets to. It's a long running joke around here that he has basically zero range, but several iconic plays cause the voters to think he has better range than he does, and looking back they don't care so much about what plays some other theoretical shortstop would make and they ultimately see him as a guy who "makes every play."
   71. My guest will be Jermaine Allensworth Posted: November 09, 2010 at 10:46 PM (#3686996)
I believe Pennington led AL SS in WAR this year. Or maybe Alex Gonzalez beat him, I forget how he split his between AL and NL.

Alexei Ramirez got him by .1 according to FanGraphs. Pennington beat Ramirez in B-Ref's WAR by .1.
   72. DL from MN Posted: November 10, 2010 at 12:06 AM (#3687041)
Goes to show what perceptions can tell you. Pennington was horrible in the one game I saw him play against the Twins. If I'd guessed I would have put him below replacement level.
   73. TomH Posted: November 10, 2010 at 12:44 AM (#3687057)
is there a source that gives voting detailed breakdown? I'd like to see if Jeter won with a plurality of 30ish% because no one else got more.

maybe if the voting had a 1st-2nd-3rd enough of hte 70% smart people would leave him off entirely.

or maybe I'm in fastasy la-la land
   74. Fat Al Posted: November 10, 2010 at 01:23 AM (#3687078)
Oh I see. Whoops! Well, I'm sure my statement will preempt someone complaining that a Yankee with a slightly negative UZR won the gold glove (if the thread ever gets past the Jeter).


It's not that hard to get it past Jeter.
   75. Srul Itza Posted: November 10, 2010 at 01:56 AM (#3687096)
Hall of Fame CF Ray. Hall of Fame CF.


Indeed, with this win, Ichiro has now tied the AL record for outfield Gold Glove, to go with his records for most hits in a season and most consecutive seasons with 200 hits. When considered in light of his MVP and ROY honors leading the 2001 Mariners to the MLB record for most wins in a season, his 10 AS appearances, his 10 years of hitting .300 or better and his nearly 400 SB, you are looking at a bona fide, Grade A, No-Doubt-About-It Hall of Famer, yessiree.
   76. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: November 10, 2010 at 03:05 AM (#3687125)
Ok, if GG's should only be awarded to 3 CF's, rather than one at each position, why do 2B's get one? 2B's are fielders who either didn't have the range for SS or couldn't make the throw from the hole.
   77. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:44 AM (#3687159)
Wow, I had never heard of Cliff Pennington before reading this thread.

Me neither. Was he really that good in the field this year? I see the +11 fielding runs according to WAR, but he was -7 and -7 the two previous years (surprisingly poor numbers given his playing time). If I had to guess just based on the numbers I'd guess he was an average SS with a lot of small sample size noise in his numbers. But he's young enough that he could have improved, and I've never seen him play, so I'll defer to those who have. What do those who have seen him play regularly think of his defense?
   78. Hecubot Posted: November 10, 2010 at 05:49 AM (#3687170)
As an A's fan I can vouch that Pennington is a very good shortstop. He's got the strongest arm I've seen at that position for the A's ever, and he's quick, and moves well to the ball.

The A's are pretty happy with him to hit .260 and steal some bases and field the position.

He's not Ozzie or Belanger level good, and he's not even as good as Omar Vizquel in his twilight. But he is an excellent Major League defender.
   79. cardsfanboy Posted: November 10, 2010 at 05:52 AM (#3687176)
Ok, if GG's should only be awarded to 3 CF's, rather than one at each position, why do 2B's get one? 2B's are fielders who either didn't have the range for SS or couldn't make the throw from the hole


nobody is saying that, they are saying that as the system is currently set up, three outfielders get the gold glove, then you would/should expect that centerfielders would win the vast majority of gold gloves because they are a more premium defensive position. If the gold gloves categories were two middle infielders get the award, then you would expect two shortstops to get the award.
   80. DCW3 Posted: November 10, 2010 at 06:18 AM (#3687181)
I find it hilarious that this happens at the same time as a sabermetric debate is going on over whether Jeter is merely the worst-fielding shortstop of all time, or actually much worse than that.
   81. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: November 10, 2010 at 06:33 AM (#3687185)
[Pennington]'s not Ozzie or Belanger level good, and he's not even as good as Omar Vizquel in his twilight. But he is an excellent Major League defender.

QFT.
Dude's got a cannon, too.
   82. Howie Menckel Posted: November 10, 2010 at 06:56 AM (#3687189)
I believe my trademark on Jeter being "gracefully slow" - the rarest of SS combinations - has been approved...
   83. bond1 Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:23 PM (#3687335)
So Jeter has the highest fielding percentage of all shortstops. And the majority of managers and coaches believe he is the best defender. what does that tell you? Maybe from a manager's viewpoint, there's more to defense than range and a strong arm. Managers may be looking at intangibles like leadership, positioning, hustle, attitude, intelligence, strategy. Managers and coaches have a lot of experience teaching and watching the game. My kid plays high school ball and I am constantly showing or reminding him of little things that someone did right or wrong. And so does his coach. Simple things like when to throw sidearm, when to fake the pick off, when to pretend you caught the ball when you didn't, which base to relay to, when to cut or not to cut, when to properly position the outfielders behind you or communicate with the 2nd baseman. Coaches notice stuff like that because they've been in the game forever. What does a coach have to do other than impart his knowledge to his players? If they see someone or some play that's exceptional on the field, believe me they notice that.
   84. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:33 PM (#3687344)
If they see someone or some play that's exceptional on the field, believe me they notice that.


The thing is, managers and coaches don't see players on other teams play very often, and they're not allowed to vote for their own players. So if they think about it at all, they might remember one play that happened against their team. Most likely, they're not thinking about it at all.

Of the people who are knowledgeable about these things, managers and coaches might be the people least suited to vote for an award that focuses on defense.

Personally, I'd be interested in what advance scouts, people who are paid to observe players on other teams and give their opinions, think on the subject.
   85. bads85 Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:34 PM (#3687345)
Alexei Ramirez got him by .1 according to FanGraphs. Pennington beat Ramirez in B-Ref's WAR by .1.


Ramirez thumped him in Dewan's system --- +16 to +9 Runs Saved.
   86. Danny Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:34 PM (#3687346)
I actually do think that public opinion on Jeter's defense has shifted well past the point that writers would be willing to vote for someone else. I think that Jeter has essentially lucked out, insofar as there simply isn't an obvious heir apparent, or at least one that Joe Bench Coach would be itching to vote for.

They had an heir apparent in Michael Young, who won the GG in 2008. Then the Rangers moved him off of SS in favor of the defensively superior Andrus. And the coaches went back to Jeter.

So Jeter has the highest fielding percentage of all shortstops. And the majority of managers and coaches believe he is the best defender. what does that tell you?

That they're obviously not voting based solely on fielding percentage, since Jeter has 5 GGs and just 2 FP titles.
   87. Danny Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:41 PM (#3687351)
Ramirez thumped him in Dewan's system --- +16 to +9 Runs Saved.

I think the quote you were responding to was about WAR, not just fielding.

But what's up with Dewan's numbers on Fangraphs? He has MLB fielders as +270 runs above average, as a whole.
   88. spivey Posted: November 10, 2010 at 04:56 PM (#3687370)
Jeter beating out Andrus last year was worse than this year. Andrus actually had = a down year defensively, compared to last year - as far I could tell.
   89. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: November 10, 2010 at 05:02 PM (#3687377)
But what's up with Dewan's numbers on Fangraphs? He has MLB fielders as +270 runs above average, as a whole.

Perhaps it's a scoring environment thing? There were 1111 fewer runs scored in MLB in 2010 than there were in 2009.
   90. Rally Posted: November 10, 2010 at 05:05 PM (#3687380)
"But what's up with Dewan's numbers on Fangraphs? He has MLB fielders as +270 runs above average, as a whole."

That is normal and expected figure in the Lake Wobegon League.
   91. Kiko Sakata Posted: November 10, 2010 at 05:12 PM (#3687385)
the majority of managers and coaches believe he is the best defender.


We don't know this to be true. There are no voting totals released with Gold Glove voting. We don't know how many people voted, how many players are named on a ballot, how those votes are weighted. It's possible (although admittedly unlikely) that only 10 people turned in ballots each listing one player per position, Jeter was named on 2 of them, and the other 8 ballots each contained a single vote for 8 other players. Hell, for all we know Jeter was also named on exactly one ballot (perhaps the Yankees ballot - they seemed to do well in voting) and the tiebreaker for the Gold Glove is to award it to the most recent past winner. It's very difficult to read anything at all into this vote, because we simply don't know how the vote actually went.
   92. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: November 11, 2010 at 04:10 PM (#3688114)
Well, except that *SOMEBODY* voted for Jeter, which is preposterous.
   93. The District Attorney Posted: November 13, 2010 at 10:40 PM (#3689525)
Bill James, from his pay site:
Cano's basic fielding statistics, interpreted in a straightforward manner, are very, very, very good--Mazeroski type good. He led all major league second basemen in putouts, assists, double plays and fielding percentage. He made only 3 errors, fielding .996. He didn't lead in range per nine innings, but his range number is good.

The Yankees were not a ground ball team. . .in fact, they were near to LAST in the American League in assists. I am not surprised, reviewing the basic facts, that Cano would rank as the best defensive player in baseball. I doubt that anyone else has basic fielding statistics as impressive.

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