Now, with Los Angeles Angels slugger Albert Pujols sitting on 662 home runs, if he gets close this year and has a legitimate chance to join the trio, he’d like to march on and keep playing past this season with a chance to be among baseball’s immortals.
“If I’m close to it, why not?” he told USA TODAY Sports. “I don’t try to chase numbers, but 700 is a big number.
“If I don’t re-sign with the Angels, I’m going to have to find a team that will give me that opportunity. I just wish I had been able to stay healthy and didn’t have those injuries. Can you imagine if I had kept the pace I was on when I was in St. Louis? I’d have 800 homers by now.’’
Pujols passed Willie Mays (660) last season for fifth on the all-time home run list. Next up is Alex Rodriguez (696), who retired before he could reach the 700-homer milestone.
Pujols, who enters his 20th major league season, is in the final year of his 10-year, $240 million contract.
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Has there ever been an Inner Circle guy who ended his career with six awful seasons?
Fixed.
Now, if you're a GM charged with putting together a winning ball club? Signing him next year may well be sad. GMs should age better.
Joe Carter in 1997. I'm sure he's not the only one, just the first one I checked.
Steve Carleton went 16-37 with an 80 ERA+ over his final four years.
Lave Cross 1895, 75
Joe Carter 1997, 77
Albert Pujols 2017, 80
Lou Bierbauer 1984, 80
Tony Batista 2004, 81
Ray Pepper 1934, 83
Herman Long 1899, 83
Vinny Castilla 1999, 84
Joe Carter 1990, 85
Tony Armas 1983, 85
So you can clear a spot for someone who hasn't made $300M and really needs the chance to play?
Professional pride that you shouldn't be playing when there are 100 guys in AA/AAA better than you?
What people are really saying is that he should walk away from the money and game, because the money is driving the behavior of his employer, because of the fallacy of sunk costs and possible bad decisions his employer might make.
No. I'm not saying he should have walked away from the money. I'm saying he should have reached a settlement with the Angels to get his money, maybe deferred a bit, and not stunk up the league for the last couple, three years.
Aren't the A's required by, like, the Constitution or the 10 Commandments or something -- the Baseball Encyclopedia, perhaps -- to serve as the final stopping place for every player anyone recognizes by name?
That is actually close to true. He averaged 40 with StL, and 26 with LAA, so if you add 14*8 (skipping 2020), you get 774. Add in a full 40 for an imaginary full 2020 and he is over 800. But I don't think that's how it works, just copy-paste your age 20s into your 30s!
oh honey
(or what 13 said)
However, for Pujols to actually be close to 700 HRs (within 10?), he’d have to have a better 2021 than most expect. Perhaps, in his own way, Pujols was saying it’s not happening.
I'll be stunned if he's an active player next year though.
Pittsburgh, Texas and Baltimore could sign him next year. What do they care ?
I love that he still wants to play. How great is that? You’d have to pull me off the field, too.
He was having at least one surgery per offseason for several years in a row. I think plantar fasciitis popped up for him later in his St. Louis days and it only got worse in Anaheim. He wants to be on the field, and, from my outsider's reading of his quotes and from watching him these last nine years, there's a mixture of delusion about his ability and a commendable sense of duty and responsibility to his team to be on the field. Albert strikes me as a guy who won't miss a game for injury unless there's no way he can play. So he stuck it out through entire seasons with debilitating pain in his feet, only to have surgery in the offseason which required a recovery period that left him unable to train the way he wanted.
Some of that is supported by statements from Albert and the team and some of it is my own reading of the situation, so take it for what it's worth. His skills have clearly declined with age, and there is a lot of evidence that he's actually 43 now. But I do think his injuries kept him from having the more gradual decline that a lot of elite players have. Instead, they sapped his strength after that age 36 season and he was never able to get back to that level.
It's interesting to compare with the articles talking about Ricky Henderson or Manny Ramirez playing in Japan or some tiny semi-pro league after MLB, or even someone like Julio Franco, whom everyone loved even with a negative WAR his last four years -- the tone in those sorts of treatments seems to be 'It's great that they love the game so much.' But Pujols doesn't get that.
Hank Aaron basically did that. 342 HR, 158 OPS+ in his twenties, 371 HR, 161 OPS+ in his thirties.
The 1994-95 strike probably cost The Crime Dog 10-15 more homers, which would have punched his ticket to Cooperstown.
On the plus side, he's amassed an insurmountable lead in career GIDP. 399 vs Ripken's 350.
The night he gets #400 will be special. Will they award him both the 1st and 2nd base bags?
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Rose's job was to write his onw name into the lineup. It THE reason the Reds got him. I was at his first game back in Cincy in '84 and the Reds were talking up the record from day 1. Not long after, the 4192 swag factory was running 3 shifts producing Hit King/Ty Cobb/4192 merch. That wasn't his fault or his error, the Reds hired him exactly for that. And his combined WAR for '84/85 was 2.3, which beats the hell out of Pujols
Six seasons:
Pedro Feliz
Five seasons:
Vinny Castilla
Gary Gaetti
Pete Rose
Frank Malzone
Four seasons:
Alex Gordon
Ichiro
Juan Pierre
Garret Anderson
Joe Randa
Ron Coomer
Tim Wallach
Keith Moreland
Brooks Robinson
Vic Power
Bubba Phillips
Jim Gilliam
Pujols only has 3 - last year wouldn't count for him because of the PA
best bWAR as an Angel: 4.8
I find it sad b/c I have a 1000 things I'd love to do in my lifetime that I'll never have the time nor money to do. Pujols could do anything he wants, but instead wants to repeat the same thing he's done for 20 years, except at a much much worse rate. I presume he has a family that he's okay being away from for another year.
Go do something else. Either something fun, or something that helps others.
Ask me how I know.
The point that we love Colon and Franco holding on forever makes clear we think we own inner circle HOFers and that they should never play worse than inner circle HOFer. A lot of them love the game as much as Colon and Franco. And he's 43. That isn't old. Once you quit playing, that's it, it's over and you won't be coming back at 58 (well, most won't).
The Angels can release him anytime they like. If it were my team, I would have. But they haven't, so, I hope his foot holds together and he has a good year. I don't expect it, but I hope it.
If he hits 30 HR this year, yeah, I think he'll get a spot somewhere if he's not worried about money. Royals maybe?
Of the 1,000 things I'd love to do in my lifetime, 900 of them involve things inside of a major league baseball stadium. So I find it hard to blame him for loving his job. Playing sports is fun. And Pujols' foundation does a lot to help families dealing with Down's Syndrome.
I feel like I have the exact opposite mindset. I always find it sad when someone retires in the middle of a contract, regardless of how good they are when they hang them up. It means they're either too injured to continue to play or they no long enjoy playing. I can't imagine willfully walking away from the game while someone is still paying me to play it.
Is it fun when you're the worst guy on the field? Especially when you used to be the best guy?
Depends how many teams are using the DH next year. Do the Royals have anyone likely to be penciled it for that? Seems like a good semi-homecoming situation where they could draw a few people for a round-number-chase. If the Cardinals have a DH spot to fill, even better.
If Pujols is talking about it, I'm guessing he's thinking it may be fun. What have the stories out of Anaheim been the past few years, in terms of where he fits on the "I'm still who I was despite all the contrary evidence and am not getting the playing time I deserve" to "he's been great, like an extra batting coach even when he's not playing" spectrum? I mean, Jason Giambi was never at Pujols's level, but he was still a big deal for a while, and he hung around anywhere that would take him for what seemed like forever.
Bonds 259 444
Mays 279 349
Sosa 273 336
ARod 429 267
Griffey 398 232
Ruth 284 424
Thome 233 356
So hardly uncommon to hit more, even many more, HRs in your 30s than 20s. As Arod and Griffey kinda show (and Ott before them), being a top HR hitter through 29 hasn't boded well for your 30s. I'm sure there are many others on the HR list with more in their 30s (Palmeiro, Ortiz, probably Mac, Stargell, Reggie I would think and then maybe some more who are around 50/50).
If he did get two fullish years, Pujols would probably pass Ruth for 2nd on the all-time RBI list (he needs 115) but he's still 197 behind Aaron which would require two solid years which seems very unlikely.
Oh god, I can totally see this. Pujols has veteran presence and totally has the values* they like.
*-the Christian variety
Pujols does not have "hugely negative defensive value." Per Rfield, he remains an average or slightly better 1B. Nearly all 1Bs have negative value of course but he's still picking it there OK and somebody's got to play there. (The bat is the issue.)
And Miggy is aging worse. Pujols was still a good player at 34-35 and not terrible at 36. Even with an atrocious age 37, Pujols had 6.5 WAR across 34-37; Miggy is at 0 for those ages (and is pretty strictly a DH with "hugely negative defensive value"). Miggy still has 3 years on that contract. It is weird that Pujols gets all this negative reaction and Miggy gets very little. Cabrera's extension was 8/$240 and the Tigers are probably going to get 5 WAR and 7 replacement-level seasons for that but it's the Pujols contract trotted out as the disaster and has everybody wishing he would just retire already.
Are you playing baseball every day? Then it's fun. It's not AS fun, but it's still fun. If the Angels sat Pujols on the bench every day, then I could see him working out a deal with them to buy out the remainder of his deal. But he's still getting to play more than half the time. If you think you've got something to contribute (and regardless of what we think, Pujols obviously still thinks he does), then yeah, it's still fun.
David Samson said yesterday that every GM in the league believes he's older than his listed age.
I would not want to engage in any activity every day at which I was terrible. Playing golf with people who are way better than you sucks, even if you play relatively well.
There have been more people within the game talking about the speculation openly, but I think the main piece of evidence is what Rally referenced above. Pujols gave an interview a few years ago where applying math to his story made it clear that he was at least two years older than his listed age. Of course, his memory could be off, which happens all the time, but unless he just completely made the story up about facing Dotel, the details would require that he was two years older than he says. It's not absolute proof, but it's better than just pure speculation in that it came directly from Pujols.
I wouldn't either. But Albert Pujols is not terrible at baseball.
Edit: This also ignores everything else involved with the game. Heck, I'd pay money just to take batting practice at Angel Stadium. Or take groundballs. He gets to hang around and mentor his teammates and interact with other ballplayers for hours per day, something that Pujols apparently loves according to all reports.
https://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/pujols_age_revisted
One that is looking to tank, and wants to say, Hey, we're trying, we signed a Hall of Famer!
Where are Davis’ obligation to walk away to give someone else a chance to play?
Where are Davis’ obligation to walk away to give someone else a chance to play?
1) Davis has made a lot less than Pujols. His four terrible season comprise the majority of his earnings.
2) No one cares if Chris Davis sucks.
I suspect the Baltimore Orioles and their fans do.
Yeah, the Angels should absolutely trade or release him. He really has no role on the team.
Is it fun when you're the worst guy on the field? Especially when you used to be the best guy?
You ask a similar question later: Is it fun to be terrible. And the answer is, of course not. But it's MLB. Being the worst MLB player is still being otherworldly good. Pujols hasn't been good but he'll be a long way from worst person to make a MLB appearance in 2021. I didn't quote your thing about playing golf with people better than you. If you're not having fun playing and you don't enjoy their company, don't play. But don't tell me I shouldn't have a good time having a few drinks on a long walk and teasing them about taking themselves too seriously.
No one cares if Chris Davis sucks.
This is the weird part to me. Albert Pujols owes me nothing. I enjoyed watching an all-time great be an all-time great. That he's a 25th man on a bad team now has no effect on that. (Also, as long as Chris Davis is in the league, Pujols won't be the worst player).
I mean, I don't think we're going to come to agreement here. But I think you take career image and golf too seriously. I suspect you think I don't take it seriously enough.
Nah, he's helping cement those sweet, sweet #1 picks. He'll be long gone before they're good.
i used to be a fake age denier, but that was when i was dazzled by pujols' career in st. louis.
when we won the series in 2011 i briefly forgot what had happened with him that season. he missed his 30/.300/100 mark by a single hit and a single rbi, and had several chances in the last game, which i watched on the edge of my seat. but looking back, you could see it happening. his OPS that year was the lowest of his time as a cardinal by far, and he only had 15 IBB that year and a ton of GIDPs. this was only two years after he had batted .327 and led the league in OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, total bases, etc. ... he was aging fast.
those years in anaheim have me seriously wondering.
the cardinals have always been a completely unsentimental organization about the talent on the field -- branch rickey was the GM of the cards when he practically invented player development in the minors, and he famously said he'd rather let a guy go one year too soon instead of one year too late. the 'cardinal way' is still a thing, sorta. so i wasn't surprised when they let albert get away after 2011, and i don't see them giving him some kind of limited role for a brief period next year, as some other orgs might do -- wasn't boggs past it when he finished with the rays, who signed him cuz he was from the area?
finally ... if i was still getting a chance somewhere, i'd play too, numbers be damned.
if only the Boston Braves had signed, say, a Babe Ruth, they might have lasted another 15 years there....
Mickey Mantle hung 'em up at age 36 mainly because his body gave out, but when he retired (March 1, 1969, it's on the Topps card I got as a kid), he also suggested he thought he was terrible in 1967 and 1968 because hit only .245 and .237 to knock his career AVG below .300.
but he drew 107 and 106 walks (so 213, vs 210 Ks), 2nd in AL in both seasons - and he was 5th in OBP in '67 and 3rd in his '68 finale for his 11th and 12th top 5s in the AL in the category. he also was 9th in WAR in 1967.
Pujols is on the other extreme - he knocks in 100 runs, so he thinks he's a reasonably valuable player.
[ANNOUNCER: "Pujols is not, in fact, a reasonably valuable player."]
According to MLB, he'll be 41 this season. As for being 43, the evidence is all circumstantial, aside from his "admission" in the discussion on the homer he hit of Dotel, which could be weird, faulty memory or apocrypha. I've long held the position that there isn't enough for me to be completely convinced he's lied about his age.
However, there's enough circumstantial evidence now that I think it's more likely than not he's older than his official MLB age. His career arc, his family background, the pictures of him in high school, the Dotel story...there's a lot there. My basic position on it is now: Absent hard evidence, I don't think it's fair to convict him of being a fraud, but I'm also not going to argue with anyone who is convinced he's 43. He probably is.
I think he's 43 but maybe he's closer to 44 or 45 - we can go with '41' as well if that is what the record says.
Yeah, but the Tigers got good years out of Cabrera before the extension.
At any rate, he had a Hall of Fame career. That’s what counts.
All of which is to say that while I can maybe believe that his true age was somehow kept secret all this time, I think it's very likely that the Angels knew his true age when they offered the contract.
... the military service during WWII ...
Put me in the camp of, if a team signs a player who knowingly lied about his age, they should have some recourse (what recourse exactly, I'm not sure)
Mow the owner's lawn in the summer and clean out the gutters in the fall?
I think I get it. Beyond baseball just being fun to play, as long as he's playing baseball he's ALBERT PUJOLS. Once he retires to spend time building bird houses or whatever, he's just the guy who used to be ALBERT PUJOLS. I few years ago I met a guy in my field who... well, doesn't have it anymore. But in the 70s he set the world on fire. And he still gets invitations to give keynote addresses at big conferences, and people speak in hushed tones around him. He's been, effectively, putting up zero WAR seasons for decades, but because of what he accomplished in the past he's still a huge deal. As long as Pujols is still an active player, and spending all of his time in baseball circles, and so on, his greatness is still, in a way, present. (Even if he's not actually great anymore.) Jo Adell, even if he is a total bust and never makes it back to the big leagues, will tell his grandkids about how he was teammates with Albert Pujols. But after Pujols retires, he doesn't get that, at least not in the same way. His neighbors are not going to tell their grandkids about how they used to live down the block from Albert Pujols, or, if they do, it will be in a "this is a neat thing" sort of way, not in the way that Adell is going to tell his grandkids about it.
The main driver of the lying about age thing is that he's from Latin America. Players from there have been accused of lying about age for decades, and it is sometimes true. It was much worse in the 1950s and 60s, because you had a lot of black guys who lied because no MLB team took them seriously until they were 25 or so. When that problem went away, the lying went away. I think it was Tony Perez who actually used his brother's documentation when he came to the U. S., because his brother was younger than he was. Not sure it was Perez, but that's what I remember.
Huh, I never would've guessed that a porn star would still be so recognisable with his pants on.....
That's a fair call. But if the Angels had no idea, I can imagine Moreno is not too happy about it.
so sayeth Hugh Jorgan
It was a Tony from Cuba, but Tony Oliva, not Tony Perez. From Oliva's SABR bio:
...surviving the sinking of the Titanic...
I was surprised to see him doing a cameo in the James Cameron flick too, but you can just catch him in the back of one of the lifeboats.
Samson may be saying that now, but in 2011 his Marlins were one of the top competing bids before Pujols signed with the Angels. They might have offered more money. My guess as to why Pujols didn’t sign there is the Marlins probably were only going to pay him 5 million in year 1 and trade him before the raises kicked in.
I'd rather watch even a greatly diminished Pujols play rather than an anonymous AAA guy, wouldn't you?
It's the problem of proving a negative, of course, and there is a LOT of smoke around this question. So maybe it's a fire. But a misremembered story from 20 years ago and David Samson being a self-serving ass still make as much, or more, sense than that Pujols lied about his age.
On the other hand, I've thought a fair amount on this issue. My father spent a year playing in the Giants system after graduating college in 1956. This would have been, like D ball or something. When Baseball Reference got minor leaguers listed, I was obviously excited to see his page. It all checked with his stories except for his birthday. Right day, but 1935 instead of 1934. I asked Dad and he just shrugged and said you can't trust what you see on the internet. I didn't push. When he died, I saw his birth certificate (so much paperwork in death) and the folks at BRef scooped up his obituary within a week or two and corrected the age.
My hunch is someone messed up a date and Dad went along with it. He was in the National Guard by that point and a college graduate so I don't know how he'd think he'd get away with lying. But...maybe. And certainly if a scout wrote down the wrong year, I doubt he would have said anything. Something in the way he addressed it when I showed him suggested he knew something was hinky.
Gets boring sometimes. When Pujols hits a ground ball and runs to first, I sometimes change the channel, watch a sitcom rerun, and turn back before he gets to first base.
For the draft there were several issues. His age and his agent being two of them. Others being that his performance in front of scouts was uneven and being a relatively new prospect a lot of teams didn't get to see him a lot. Consequently some scouts and teams liked him and some scouts didn't and some teams he wasn't even on their radar.
The Rays were high on him along with the Red Sox. The Red Sox got cheap on signing bonus. Pujols wanted the team drafting him to put up money for college should baseball not work out and the Red Sox wouldn't.
The Rays were the ones expected to draft him within rounds 2-5 or so but for some reason they got cold feet. The Rays scout who discovered him for the team quit the next year in disgust.
Even the Cardinals were thought to draft him in the first 10 rounds. In the end he was just a "hey, what about this guy? Our scouts like him." pick for the Cardinals.
Because Mickey Mantle knew that what made Mickey Mantle, Mickey Mantle, wasn't drawing walks.
Smart guy that Mickey Mantle.
I beat a bad case in 2018-19. Stretching, massaging the tendon with a tennis ball, picking up dice with only your toes and depositing them in a cup, being an absolute Nazi about the shoes you put on your feet 24/7. I probably threw away $1,000 worth of shoes and replaced them all. But, yeah, it really sucks when you have it. Low point was probably going to the doctor and him basically saying there was nothing he could do.
I have it, and the think about it is it hurts most when you first step on the feet after lying/sitting down. Once you fight through the pain and start moving, your foot loosens up and it gets a lot better.
I had a back attack two weeks ago, and it was agony to get started moving. But I went outside to shovel snow, and after 10 minutes, I didn't really notice it.
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