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Wednesday, December 07, 2011
Albert Pujols mulls 3 offers: Cardinals, Marlins, and 1 more
DALLAS—Marquee free-agent first baseman Albert Pujols, fueling the most lucrative bidding war in baseball history, obtained three 10-year contract proposals Tuesday that would pay him in excess of $200 million, an official close to the negotiations told USA TODAY.
The official could not comment on the negotiations because they are ongoing.
Pujols, who could announce his decision as early as Wednesday, has offers from the St. Louis Cardinals, Florida Marlins and a third team that has publicly declined to be identified. Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak confirmed his club increased its offer to Pujols late Tuesday, his first offer in nine months.
WE HAVE MYSTERY TEAM!
Gamingboy
Posted: December 07, 2011 at 02:03 AM | 113 comment(s)
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Tags: cardinals, miami, rumors
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Perhaps its al-Qaeda speaking through a masked spokesman.
Possible mystery team: Other than the Yankees (who given the 1B/DH situation don't seem to be players), who has the coin to make a 10-year/$200+ million offer? The Cubs? I'm at a loss.
I can't imagine if the offers are close he'd leave the Cardinals, but crazier ####'s happened, I guess.
On that note, how set would the Phillies be if they didn't give Ryan Howard that extension? They could have spent that money on either Fielder, or Pujols, or Reyes, or just signed a contract with Ryan Howard that addressed the fact he had an injury when he signed his contract.
Why do you think so TE? It seem to me the Giants only sign crappy free agents. When have they nabbed the top FA available? (1993 comes to mind.) Since their (arguably) best young player is a first baseman (Belt), not to mention Huff is still around, I would think they should look to upgrade elsewhere.
The Nationals.
-- MWE
I think you look to sign Pujols *because* your first base options are Brandon Belt and Aubrey Huff, not in spite of it. Besides, if you think Belt is ready to break out, the Giants appear okay putting him in left, and they aren't exactly awash in corner outfielders.
The Yankees and Red Sox have both been awfully quiet so far this offseason...
They've both have $150M 1Bs. No chance they're adding a $200M 1B.
Bobby Heenan is one of my favorite wrestling personalities of all time, but he kind of took some of the surprise out of that angle by even suggesting that Hulk Hogan might be the mystery partner.
Allegedly for fewer years, though.
fielder is looking for 8.
ryan howard is signed for 5. the team paid a premium to do it. it doesn't look too ####### good right now, but his contract isn't gonna cripple the team now or in the future.
can i just take a moment to say how unwatchable TNA is right now. even just reading the two sentence description of impact on the onscreen guide makes me literally (figuratively) facepalm. it's just complete garbage.
Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.
Well, if they do land him it would go a long towards justifying their ticket prices.
Word is that the Cubs offer is high dollar, but well shy on the length side.
And I'm guessing well short of total dollar value as well.
Oh God yes. The Bobby roode angle could not have been any worse at bfg and after. I like a lot of their talent but i'm out.
It's just idle radio chatter/rumor reporting, but what I heard on the ride home is that the Cubs actually came in highest on AAV, but for several years shorter than anyone else was offering. I suppose that also means the total $$$ value was low, but regardless -- if we're looking at something in the 8-10/200+ million range, I'd pass, too.
Sounds like a smart offer from a smart GM.
then it couldn't have been the Cubs, their Gm is Theo Epstein. I don't think he's ever made a smart offer on a free agent. He usually leverages his massive resources to get the guy he wants, whether he needs him or not.
I've often wondered why more GMs don't do more of the higher AAV/fewer years offers. I guess I can understand the "last contract" mentality from a player, but it's not like security is at issue. I suppose you can never have to worry about moving again -- and I understand the team perspective of spending 200 over 10 perhaps making more sense than 200 over say, 7...
But still - you're sucking up a roster spot during (more than likely) drek years and even if you sign the deal knowing the last couple years are just sunk costs - you almost always end up wasting ABs or IP on a player not worth it. Releasing a player and just eating 50 million isn't something any team easily does.
I guess luxury tax implications can play into it, too.
In which sense? I mean if one team offers 6/$200 and another offers 8/$200 then surely (all else equal) the player takes 6/$200 but there's no advantage there for the team.
So I assume you're thinking 6/$180 vs 8/$200. Then it's just a matter of which wants to gamble. If the player thinks he can get more than 2/$20 6 years later, he might go for the first offer. On the other hand, if the first team really wants the player, an addition 2/$20 is not that big a deal.
And then you get into NPV where the 8/$200 deal is probably about the same NPV as 6/$180 in which case the player might as well take 6/$180.
In Pujols' case, if it's 10/$200 I have no real problem with that from the Cubs' perspective given I was "willing" to go 8/$200. 10/$250 is probably past my breaking point. Anyway, there's a lot of wriggle room in "in excess of $200 M".
I find most current pro wrestling unbearable, but TNA sounds comically bad from what friends tell me. A buddy of mine got free tickets to a TNA house show last month, so we went just for the laughs. I was underwhelmed by almost all of the wrestling, but got a laugh out of Scott Steiner getting on the house mic and saying, "I usually like to pick a couple of ladies out of the audience to take back to my hotel room. But the problem is that I'm looking out in the crowd right now and all I see are ugly #######."
To TNA's credit, they conjured up a really loud crowd thanks to the promise of free backstage passes for the loudest fans throughout the show.
If I'm offered a 10 year 200 mil or an 8 year 180 mil, I'll probably lean very strongly towards the 10 year contract, it's more guaranteed money, and if I want, I'll still have a job 10 years down the road. On top of that, there is a legitimate possibility that after 8 years, I might not be worthy of getting even a 2 year 20 mil contract. or extent it out to a 8 year 190 vs 10 year 200, again, there is a possibility I won't be worth even a 2 year 10 mil contract...so ultimately it's about the raw dollar amount.
edit: or what Walt said.
Good on them. The availability of Fielder hurts Pujols's leverage a little. I wouldn't want the Cubs to go 10.
They've already signed his D Wade. Mark the Marlins down for a World Series loss in 2012.
Personal tax issues too.
Congratulations! What do you plan to do with the team, now you've bought it?
In terms of location but not in terms of contract length and amount. Not at these amounts.
Congratulations! What do you plan to do with the team, now you've bought it?
I plan on getting a ton of free handouts.
anyway, comically bad would be a very large step up for TNA, relative to my current opinion of it.
1) How many elite years does Pujols have left?
2) How much is an ordinary Pujols worth purely in terms of marketing value?
This is such an difficult contract to value because the first number is so unclear while the second number is so relatively high.
He might sold some extra tickets 10 years from now if it is his final year but an Albert Pujols that plays like an old Lyle Overbay has next to no marketing value.
unless the offers are north of $50 million "in excess" maybe they should hold off on calling it the most lucrative bidding war...
I don't think this mythical beast exists
really not offering a no trade clause on a ten year contract? Yep, have to agree, can't be to confident about keeping him if that is the case, a no trade clause is only meaningful for the first five years of the contract.
I had a long TNA rant here, but they're not worth it. It just amazes/infuriates me how they have had so many advantages in terms of talent and situation and have squandered them for almost literally no gain over several years of being WWE's only competition. The amount of talent they they've either wasted, fired, or not signed at all is just staggering. They have a prime time TV slot to promote whatever they want, so they promote... Hogan vs Sting? In 2011? While simultaneously managing to degrade the rest of their talent? It's remarkable, someone really should write a book on this.
But really, I think all I need to say is, Judy Bagwell on a Forklift Match.
So you're telling me that Eric Bischoff and Vince Russo took what didn't work 15 years ago, replicated it nearly to the letter, and are shocked that its not working now?
Eric Bischoff is too big to fail, apparently.
Why do people think trades are not part of the puzzle?
WWE just booked Kevin Nash vs Triple H in a ladder match in the year 2011. My mind boggles at the possibilities.
One of Bobby Heenan's things over the years was his absolute, steadfast hatred and mistrust of Hulk Hogan. He hated him in every promotion they crossed paths in. WIth the nWo, Heenan was in the position of a heel announcer who was on the side of WCW because he was a professional who was disgusted with what these "outsiders" were doing. It completely made sense within his character that he would even think that Hogan would turn heel on WCW. There's also the fact that in '96 before the Monday Night Wars REALLY got going, turns were done much less frequently. Even when arenas were sick of Hogan's act and booing him, NOBODY - even the smartest, most insider fan possible - thought anyone would ever turn him heel because he still had the name value and it was such a proven success.
Wrestling fans bring up this "Heenan ruined it" thing a lot nowadays, but I've gotta say it feels like revisionist history because I don't remember ANYBODY back then saying "Heenan blew it and revealed the turn".
The second place team in the west still has to worry about the third place team in the east.
I think you're spot on there. I was a pretty big wrestling junkie back in the late 90s and early 00s, even ran the largest MSN Group (anyone remember those? lol) about pro-wrestling, and this is quite literally the first time I have ever heard about this "Heenan ruined it" thing. Never once read it in an article at any of the popular sites back in the day or heard a single person ever mention it in a chatroom.
Agreed on the point - which would be true most years, but not in 2012 (granted you're in trouble if he's ordinary in year 1 of 10) where his marketing impact would be greater in a new city vs the net loss in STL (where they take less of a hit as reigning WS champs) - or any year in which Pujols hypothetically gets traded to yet another team.
Also factor in the the 3000 hit and 500/600/700* HR milestones bumps that would apply in any market.
*he'd need to average 25.5 HR over 10 years for 700
I guess that's fair. I was 12 and subsequently devastated when Hogan turned. I only got the WWF PPVs (I actually managed a nice streak of coercing my mom into buying ever WWF show from Summerslam '91 to mid-2003), so I heard of the turn and didn't actually see it until many months later. Upon that first viewing, the comment still stood out, though, especially since Tony Schiavone sounded like it legitimately caught him off guard.
Vince Russo eventually desensitized us to the concept of turns, but I agree that at the time, they were almost always notable. It's still for me the most shocking turn in wrestling history.
Shawn Michaels throwing Marty Jannetty through the Barbershop window is still my favorite heel turn ever, though.
I think it's hard to say what the future will bring, but it seems to me that the panache associated with such milestones has depreciated pretty seriously in the last decade.
Because people are (smartly) focusing less on the "record chase" and moment in which the record's ultimately broken than they are on the fact that having one of those guys means you're giving PT to an old dude in decline.
Not weird at all. A trade is the Marlins' plan B if Pujols doesn't measure up to the contract or if the rest of the team collapses around him. Mark Teixeira's contract is up after 2016, exactly halfway through the proposed Pujols contract, and exactly when the Marlins could be unloading him for the 2016 version of Alfonso Soriano.
It also just so happens that Derek Jeter's contract (the option year) expires exactly halfway through the Reyes contract.
If the Marlins are really that concerned about it they probably shouldn't be giving him a ten year contract.
and considering who we're dealing with here, the fact that miami is making an issue of this basically telegraphs their intent to move him at some point in the near future.
Yup. At least it doesn't completely reverse my point...oh wait.
I don't think that's fair. It telegraphs nothing more than their intent to remain trade-flexible. Maybe the team has a policy of not giving out no-trade clauses for anyone (for while management will likely change hands in the midst of a long-term contract, ownership may not do so, and may not want to be hamstrung by this particular contract detail).
After 2016 Pujols will have full no trade protection since he'll be a 10-5 player.
The ability to trade him only comes into play the first 5 seasons of his contract after that he has it regardless of what Florida wants and does not want in the contract. Basically Florida is standing firm on wanting to be able to trade Albert at any time to anywhere over the next 5 seasons. Which as I said is just weird.
I think what this is telegraphing is that either Loria doesn't have the money or is not prepared to risk a loss at some point down the road. I'm thinking he is hedging his bets on fan turnout. If he spends all this money and opens a new stadium and in three years they are drawing 5,000 a game he wants to be able to unload all these contracts and go back to pocketing 30 million a year in revenue sharing profits.
Probably right. And, of course, if Pujols goes to Miami and three years from now it is as you describe, he'll likely want out.
But he'll want a payday as well or at the very least a say in where he goes.
As a Cardinals fan, it would upset me if Pujols left to join al-Qaeda.
Probably not much worse than joining the Cubs. And the concern over watching him win the Series in another uniform would be about the same.
needless to say, he was traded after year 1.
there is absolutely no reason to give loria the benefit of the doubt in this situation, and the fact that he's unwilling to close this deal with a NTC should make it entirely clear that he's not actually committed to contending, and that he'll pull the plug out from under this team if he even gets a hint that his profit margin will be at risk.
the fact that this NTC is an issue at all should just serve to double down on pujols' insistence on having it.
A no-trade clause has value, otherwise nobody would care. We can debate what that value is until the cows come home, but if Albert wants one, then it becomes part of the negotiations, yes? Which means it will be haggled over, just like everything else.
I guess what I'm saying is that negotiations produce a lot of noise that, ultimately, doesn't mean ####. Couldn't this just be part of that noise?
but this is an organization that will never deserve the benefit of the doubt when there's another plausible explanation.
The same reason the Red Sox aren't. A 5-6 year deal for CJ Wilson is a big investment. I think there are enough fair questions about this guy to shy away.
But that applies to the Angels, Rangers, Marlins etc also. And he would be a smaller investment to NY than he would be to the others.
I suppose but they've clearly decided he is worth the risk. I didn't mean to be quite snooty as I sounded but I think it's a simple fact that the Yankees and Sox don't feel he is worth it. This isn't Halladay or someone that it's a no brainer. I think both "go get him" and "stay away" are defendable positions.
If the Yankees never make him an offer, then this is a fact. I guess my question was more why don't the Yankees think that he is worth it - given their SP need and payroll clout?
Good!
I hope this all blows up in Loria's face... dream 2012 scenario -- as the Marlins drop their 9th straight to fall an even 20 games back on August 1, federal agents enter the owner's box and arrest Loria over the stadium extortion/financing.
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