I'm a bit confused. I see an Aug 11 transaction opetioning Manoah. Did he never report? Or he's been there for a month but has left the team? He's still listed on the 40-man as of this morning so he wasn't DFAd.

TFA doesn't say anything about timing, but I believe you're right--it was a month ago that the Blue Jays optioned him down and he refused to report.

Supposedly Manoah is crying that the Blue Jays only did it to keep him from being a Super Two. It might be a more credible claim if his ERA didn't damn nearly start with a 6.

After returning in July, he had about a 5.00 ERA and FIP, not good but #5 starter material. Is he the worst pitcher on the staff?

not good but #5 starter material. Is he the worst pitcher on the staff?

Gausman - 3.28 ERA
Bassitt - 3.83 ERA
Berrios - 3.63 ERA
Kikuchi - 3.57 ERA
Ryu - 2.65 ERA

Ryu has only been back for 23 innings but he has been sharp and a lot more predictable than Manoah these days.

I'm a bit confused. I see an Aug 11 transaction opetioning Manoah. Did he never report? Or he's been there for a month but has left the team? He's still listed on the 40-man as of this morning so he wasn't DFAd.

Manoah never reported. As of two weeks ago, according to GM Ross Atkins, the pitcher never left town, they said he had stayed put, to undergo some specific testing. The tone and the language were very weird. (They were so vague, to my ears, that they were leaving open the possibility that these were non-physical tests.)

He's still on the 40 man, now placed on the "temporarily inactive" list according to the podcast. The gist I got today was that Manoah hasn't thrown a pitch under team supervision since "being sent out" and hence it's now time to admit that even if the Jays make the playoffs, Manoah wouldn't even be ready for a relief role. My take? - most teams would have suspended Manoah by now.

As an aside, I listen to this "Blair & Barker" podcast every day, it's good.*

*{Well, it has grown on me, over the years? Jeff Blair has been a newspaper sport reporter since the 80s, covering mostly the Expos, and then the Jays, and he still occasionally writes but now mostly does radio. Kevin Barker is the colour commentator: former major leaguer, mostly minor leaguer, and big time prospect. A Manitoboan and a Virginian, talking baseball every day. My granddaddy's mind would be blown.}

Manoah never reported. As of two weeks ago, according to GM Ross Atkins, the pitcher never left town, they said he had stayed put, to undergo some specific testing. The tone and the language were very weird. (They were so vague, to my ears, that they were leaving open the possibility that these were non-physical tests.)

He's still on the 40 man, now placed on the "temporarily inactive" list according to the podcast. The gist I got today was that Manoah hasn't thrown a pitch under team supervision since "being sent out" and hence it's now time to admit that even if the Jays make the playoffs, Manoah wouldn't even be ready for a relief role. My take? - most teams would have suspended Manoah by now.

Agreed--I'm surprised they haven't just suspended him without pay for refusing to report where assigned. I'd have thought they were within their rights to do that. But since they haven't, there must be some reason they don't believe they can safely do it.

If he isn't suspended, what is he? Is he on the restricted list? Is he still on the 40 man?

I'm guessing they just trade him now.

They put him on the "temporary inactive list," whatever that is. It sounds like where you'd put a player who's gone for a couple days for the birth of his child or death of his parent, but I don't really know. It certainly isn't the Restricted List, where a suspended player would be. He is on the 40-man and still getting paid.

It does seem clear enough that Manoah wants to be released, and the Jays would rather he pitch well in the minors for a month so they can get something for him. I'd be surprised if he ever put on a Blue Jays jersey again.

I don't know how many (if any) options they still have on him. I guess if he just goes into Operation Shutdown then at some point they run out of options and have to waive him.

This year was the first option used on Manoah as he wasn't yet on the 40 man when he first came up. FanGraphs confirms this - says he had 3 options coming into 2023. So if they wanted to they could option him next year for the whole year and tell him to pout in rookie ball if they wanted. Then do the same in 2025. I suspect some team will make an offer (at maybe 25% of his value) this winter thinking they can get him back to 100% in a 'I will prove them wrong' situation. Maybe another team has a player who is mad at the team and wants out. I suspect though the Jays would take A ball talent in exchange now (longer term but might become something). Very frustrating as he was a Cy Young candidate last year and if he was even a league average pitcher this year the Jays would probably be a lock for the playoffs right now instead of being on the edge of it.

Manoah has always been a little full of himself, maybe more than a little. Refusing to report for a minor league assignment (if that's actually what happened) in the middle of a mediocre season would be right in character. Maybe the Jays can trade him to Tampa for Wander Franco.

#3 It's tough to use a pitcher who's walking a little over 6 per 9IP.

Manoah has always been a little full of himself, maybe more than a little. Refusing to report for a minor league assignment (if that's actually what happened) in the middle of a mediocre season would be right in character. Maybe the Jays can trade him to Tampa for Wander Franco.

Much as it is a natural tendency to seek out the exact opposite after a bad breakup, I'm not sure targeting a guy who you are certain would not refuse a minor... is the way to go.

They put him on the "temporary inactive list," whatever that is. It sounds like where you'd put a player who's gone for a couple days for the birth of his child or death of his parent

that seems to be exactly what it is, but for minor leaguers. You're only supposed to be on their for family illness or some personal obligation and reason number three:

(3) awaiting release for the purpose of allowing the player to sign with a foreign league

so they are getting ready to release him?

Terrible as he's been this year... He's 25.

He was worth 1.9 WAA and 2.9 WAR as a 23 rookie (9-2, 3.22, 139 ERA+, 20 starts 111 IP) in 2021 and 4.4 WAA and 6 WAR (16-7, 2.24, 172 ERA+, 31 GS, 196 IP) in 2022. He's still cheap - I don't think he's arb-eligible until *next* year.

Sure, he's been terrible this year and now he's being a pain in the ass, so maybe his bridges are now entirely burned in Toronto.

But absent something I'm unaware of -- but I cannot imagine he doesn't have a relatively decent amount of value in trade... like, I cannot imagine there's a single team who won't be inquiring about the cost to acquire him.

Perhaps he's a grade A jackass... but A)this feels like the Jays would have been better off stuffing him into the bullpen if he wasn't going to be Halliday and agree to go down and get sorted... and then deal him in the offseason, B)reiterating, absent something we don't know, hard to see how every other team wouldn't at least be interested, and C)I tend to suspect that Manoah may very well have a point about being screwed out of super 2 status.

Dammit zonk, I saw that joke this morning and came here to post it.

sunday silence: I assume the rules are pretty lax around that list for minor leaguers. I wouldn't read anything into it.

Dammit zonk, I saw that joke this morning and came here to post it.

Heh - well, mine was 'original' (at least, I didn't see it anywhere else first :-).... I'll grant it's a layup so I'm not claiming any comedic genius!), so I don't feel bad at all!

yeah I shouldnt have suggested they are going to release him. They can keep him on the Temp list for awhile to save up a minor league roster spot. Apparently the "testing" was real at least according to stories linked on the Baseballref site. There were some injury concerns, maybe Manoah feels he's fine and that's their excuse to shut him down.

yeah I shouldnt have suggested they are going to release him. They can keep him on the Temp list for awhile to save up a minor league roster spot. Apparently the "testing" was real at least according to stories linked on the Baseballref site. There were some injury concerns, maybe Manoah feels he's fine and that's their excuse to shut him down.

Oh sure - wasn't meaning to drop the hammer so harshly....

Maybe there was no other option for the Jays - like I said, entirely possible Manoah is a grade A jackass - but this does feel like the sort of thing where I feel like the Jays messed up here somehow.

I guess I see it this way -- optimally, Manoah would be open to pulling a Halladay... but - I think Manoah's (quite right) point would be that Hallady didn't have nearly the MLB track record he had at the point where he blew up and went down to get sorted and he actually wasn't getting blown up to the extent Halladay was.

The MLB-PA basic agreement is the basic agreement - and the Jays certainly have the legal right under the BA to send him down... but this just feels like an area where I'd have used some kid gloves. Maybe they did (again, quite possible he's a jackass) but even if he is? Then I'm mostly trying to find a way to soften the value-blow of this season to retain his challenge trade value.

This imbroglio - even if it's Manoah's fault entirely or mostly - only hurts his trade value, assuming bridges are burned and he's gonna be pitching for someone else next year.

There could always be more to it, but the story seems cut-and-dried to me. Manoah has been one of the worst pitchers in the major leagues this season. Even after returning from his first demotion he improved only from "absolutely terrible" to "bad". The Jays are in a tight race for a wild card spot and could not afford to keep sending him out to get rocked every fifth day, but don't want to make him a reliever either. The normal and ordinary thing to do for a team in their situation is send the guy down to Triple-A to keep making starts.

Manoah of course is angry about this because it will cost him millions of dollars by pushing him out of Super Two status. The only rightful targets of his anger are the players' union for approving this aspect of the CBA, and himself for sucking. But he's young, and he's immature even for a 23 year old, and got pissed off at the team instead.

The team could have suspended him, but since he's being paid peanuts as a minor leaguer anyway, chose not to.

But it's weird that he's not pitching at all and the team seems OK with that.

From what I read the team does not have to pay them if they are on the Temp list. And in most cases they dont pay them.

Re: options. I guess the other option is they can put him on Restricted List with the COmm'r approval. Although if everything is OK with him on the Temp list then I guess there's no reason to go that route.

Does he have an agent? Maybe his agent should do the talking.

if he feels he lost Super 2 status, cant the team simply renegotiate a new contract with him and bump him up some to make up for what's happened? or is that against the CBA?

From what I read the team does not have to pay them if they are on the Temp list. And in most cases they dont pay them.

Re: options. I guess the other option is they can put him on Restricted List with the COmm'r approval. Although if everything is OK with him on the Temp list then I guess there's no reason to go that route.

Does he have an agent? Maybe his agent should do the talking.

if he feels he lost Super 2 status, cant the team simply renegotiate a new contract with him and bump him up some to make up for what's happened? or is that against the CBA?

I guess this might be my point for what I'd have done if I were the Jays... I think the record for a first arb award is 10m (I think Bellinger?) - after his 2023, Manoah *obviously* wouldn't get that or anything close. Is there a number I could offer him - I'm just spitballing here - 2m? - where I basically tell him "Look, forget arb and service time... We'll give you a contract for next year that will be more than you've earned to date but we want to send you down to get worked out"

I mean, special cases exist beyond the CBA where it would seem to be better for the team to just cut a deal - even a 1m or 2 beyond what they could finagle otherwise - rather than be a hardass.

I wouldn't do that for fungible reliever X or utility player Y -- but for a guy that sure *looked* like an ace as recently as last year? I'd be willing to pony up a mil or so just to keep him happy and keep us on the same page....

Manoah was probably looking at $1.5-2 M in arb. A couple of years ago, John Means (with a full 3 years service) settled for 2/$6. This year, Nestor Cortes (3 full years) settled for 1/$3.2 soming off 250 innings of 150 ERA+. If Manaoh had had a good year, he'd have been in line for pretty big money and sometimes that will carry forward after a normal bad year but this has kinda been a disaster. So in theory, I agree, giving him $1 or $1.5 ought to mollify him but sounds like a guy who doesn't realize how much his value has dropped so I don't know if he'd be mollified.

I wouldn't do that for fungible reliever X or utility player Y -- but for a guy that sure *looked* like an ace as recently as last year? I'd be willing to pony up a mil or so just to keep him happy and keep us on the same page....

exactly. And this is why you let your agent do the talking.

A)this feels like the Jays would have been better off stuffing him into the bullpen if he wasn't going to be Halliday and agree to go down and get sorted

FYI this was the second time this season that Manoah was optioned to the minors. He was sent down in June, all the way to the team's instructional and spring training headquarters in Dunedin. The intention was to give him unfettered access to the facilities, away from the limelight, and together with organizational staff work on having him return to his previous form. I suppose that was him "doing a Halladay"? He started a game in the Rk-level Florida Complex League, then a game at AA, then returned to the majors. He returned in July to pitch poorly for a team hunting a playoff spot, and dreadfully in August. His SO/BB ratio is almost 1.00, his WHIP is 1.7+ His stuff doesn't profile as good enough to bump a reliever off the major league roster, and with Hyun-Jin Ryu rehabilitated from his Tommy John surgery and throwing better than Manoah, the Jays decided against going with a six man rotation and continue to let Manoah and his ERA of almost 6.00 take the mound.

Sure on a different team or in a different scenario, Manoah might still be in the majors, trying to fix things. And things definitely need fixing. Sending him to the minors again has nothing to do with his Super Two status, this isn't about Toronto trying to save a few shekels. Toronto would have preferred a productive and contributing Alek Manoah to this one, who stinks and thinks he can live outside of the CBA.

This report says Manoah initially stayed in Toronto instead of reporting to the minors with the team’s blessing:

Back on August 22, not too long after Manoah was optioned, Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet reported that Manoah had stayed in Toronto as opposed to reporting to Triple-A Buffalo, with the team’s blessing. “We’re just trying to work through the right time to get him back rolling again,” manager John Schneider said. “So nothing really to report.” When asked who made that decision, Schneider replied “It’s kind of both of us working through it to figure out what’s just best for him to get back and be productive,” the manager said. “So yeah, a joint thing and just taking it day by day.”
. . .
A few days after that, Nicholson-Smith reported that Manoah had recently undergone a battery of medical tests, but nothing serious was found. He didn’t report to Buffalo right away in case a stint on the injured list was required, but once his health was confirmed, he was expected to report to Buffalo at that time to start building back up to game readiness.

On September 5, Nicholson-Smith relayed that Manoah had been placed on the temporarily inactive list by the Bisons, adding that Manoah was with the club but they wanted to utilize his roster spot as he built back up. But earlier this week, another report from Nicholson-Smith relayed that it was unlikely Manoah would pitch in another game this season, prioritizing rest and recovery for potential long-term benefits.

It’s a bit fuzzy, but maybe not the outright insubordination of the classic refusal to report scenario.

Curt Flood enters the chat

A Curt Flood comparison? I got one word for that - REALLY?
Are you saying teams "own" a player, like chattel? Should we remove a team's ability to option a player to the minors? That Manoah should get to become a free agent if he's not good enough to stick on the MLB roster?

It’s a bit fuzzy, but maybe not the outright insubordination of the classic refusal to report scenario.

That's definitely a wrinkle in this situation. As I said earlier, most teams would have suspended Manoah for refusing to report. But Toronto is complicit in allowing Manoah to act this way.

I wonder what other teams think of how Toronto has handled this? In fact, I wonder what the Union, and other players think of this situation? I'm interested to listen to former Marlins exec David Sampson's "Nothing Personal" podcast on Friday, he says Manoah will be a topic.

My company's regional HQ is in Buffalo, and I can readily understand why Manoah is refusing to go there.