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Wednesday, October 30, 2019

American Leagues Rushmore Update, 2019

From Dr. Chaleeko’s web site, though this article is by his cohort Miller:

the conversation turned to who should be on the Mets’ Mount Rushmore. I thought it was an interesting question, a bit of a rarity for talk radio. It’s a question I wanted to answer. However, I wanted to approach it a bit differently and certainly numerically. I’m going with straight, career bWAR as my number. But there’s a wrinkle – ah, there’s always a wrinkle. To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.

Mike Webber Posted: October 30, 2019 at 09:13 AM | 49 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: american league, rushmore

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 30, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5896231)
Pirates: Clemente, Stargell, Sam Leever, Mazeroski. My guess is that if some eccentric actually did this, Leever would be replaced by #5 Traynor.
   2. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2019 at 09:48 AM (#5896233)
So the Jays' Rushmore is Luis Leal, Garth Iorg and who else?

That's really an impossible standard for most of the expansion teams (the Royals would still have a decent one) and the A's.



   3. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 09:50 AM (#5896236)
Cubs are tough. Banks is a no-brainer. Next best career Cub is Stan Hack. And then who? Charlie Hollocher? Mark Prior? If time played in the NA doesn't count, Cap Anson I suppose, but the Cubs were in the NA and Anson played for a different team the whole time.
   4. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 30, 2019 at 09:56 AM (#5896241)
The Rockies would have Todd Helton and three active players (Arenado, Blackmon and Story, unless you're a Jon Gray fetishist). Unless I missed someone, the second-highest WAR for a player who only played for the Rockies but isn't currently on the team belongs to Wilin Rosario at 1.8. That's career, not single season.
   5. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5896247)
That's really an impossible standard for most of the expansion teams


The Astros have a better team than the Cubs and Braves.

edit: I see that current players count. So for now the Cubs at least could compete with the Astros, but as far as retired players with no chance to move on, it's Banks, Hack, Hollocher, and Prior. Bagwell, Biggio, Don Wilson, J. R. Richard are better.
   6. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5896250)
Mets: Wright, Kranepool, Ron Hodges, deGrom

How sad is this?
   7. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5896252)
a Jon Gray fetishist

There are many shades of them.
   8. Rally Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5896253)
Would have been near impossible for most of the Angels' history. Now we've got a good start with Trout and Salmon. Jered Weaver would be a good 3 but for 9 games and zero wins for the Padres.

For first pass I'll go with Ohtani and Calhoun 3-4. Calhoun might join another team this offseason if the Angels turn down his option. I'll have to check to see who the best retired 1 team Angels are.
   9. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:08 AM (#5896260)
The 1 team retired Braves are even more pathetic. Chipper is a fine centerpiece, but unless I'm mistaken, the next best is Rick Camp, and it goes downhill from there. Looking forward to Friday.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5896261)
Oh, they employ a one-team rule and count current players? That's dumb.

   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:13 AM (#5896265)
To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.

This is dumb. Make it 80% of total WAR or something.
   12. Rally Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5896267)
Scot Shields played his whole career with the Angels, so welcome to the team, Scot! Very good setup man for a few years, 14 WAR, and part of the 2002 team. Not in danger of ever playing anywhere else.

I'll go with Ohtani as #4 as he's more likely to play with the 2020 team, and in hopes that he's still there when he ends his career. Is he eligible though? Or does Fighting Ham for Nippon disqualify him?
   13. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:16 AM (#5896268)
FTA:

I’m going with straight, career bWAR as my number.


I'll cut him some slack, because he probably didn't put as much effort into it, but:

Rushmore II: Mariano Rivera, Whitey Ford, Bill Dickey, and Bernie Williams.

Rushmore III: Ron Guidry, Thurman Munson, Mel Stottlemyre, and Jorge Posada.


That's fine as far as it goes, but Roy White (46.8) has more WAR than a bunch of those guys.
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:20 AM (#5896273)
Scot Shields played his whole career with the Angels


Shields occupies a pretty unique space - a straight middle reliever with a 10-year career all with one team.
   15. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:40 AM (#5896292)
A lot of Angels players stay on the Angels a long time. They don't do a lot of trades and players never want to leave. Gary DiSarcina spent his entire career with the Angels. Darin Erstad was there for 11 years. Erick Aybar was there for 10 years. Garrett Richards was on the Angels for 8 years. Chone Figgins was there for 8 years. Bengie Molina was there for 8 years. Kole Calhoun has been on the Angels for 8 years and counting. Tim Salmon, Garret Anderson, Troy Percival, Chuck Finley. And once they sign a veteran to a big contract those veterans also stay to the end of the contract. (exception: Mo Vaughn)

Like Scot Shields, there was a guy named Robb Quinlan who spent his entire 8-year career on the Angels with a total of 1112 at-bats.

   16. Don August(us) Cesar Geronimo Berroa Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:55 AM (#5896317)
To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.

This is dumb. Make it 80% of total WAR or something.


I agree with snapper on something! This eliminates Pete Rose from the Reds, which is stupid.

Though, the only-ever Reds Rushmore would still have Bench, Larkin and (most likely) Votto on it.

edit: Looks like the 4th would be Bid McPhee. so, 4 guys with more than 50 bWAR. Not too shabby.
   17. Random Transaction Generator Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5896341)
If you were to stick to a more reasonable 80% innings pitched or plate appearances requirement (instead of the rigid 100%), then the Blue Jays could have:

Dave Stieb (56.9)
Vernon Wells (28.7)
Lloyd Moseby (26.0)
Jim Clancy (24.7)

If it's 80% of career bWAR, the the Blue Jays could have:

Dave Stieb (56.9)
Tony Fernandez (37.5)
Jose Bautista (37.3)
Carlos Delgado (36.8)

The 100% rule is silly because Stieb would be excluded for the 0.7599% of his career spent with the White Sox. He actually accumulated OVER 100% of his career bWAR with the Blue Jays (-0.6 bWAR with the White Sox).
   18. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5896350)
To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.

This is dumb. Make it 80% of total WAR or something.


There's a place for both discussions. Yes, the proper "best" Braves team is Aaron, Spahn, Niekro, and either Chipper or Mathews, with apologies to Maddux, Glavine, and maybe some others. But it's also interesting that the top 4 career players for a team that has operated continuously since 1871 is Chipper and a bunch of barely above replacement level guys.
   19. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5896353)
To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.

This is dumb. Make it 80% of total WAR or something.


I agree with snapper on something! This eliminates Pete Rose from the Reds, which is stupid.



Yep. Takes Seaver off the Mets, too.
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5896354)
But it's also interesting that the top 4 career players for a team that has operated continuously since 1871 is Chipper and a bunch of barely above replacement level guys.

I don't see it as interesting that you exclude Yogi Berra from the Yankees for 9 (PR stunt) PAs. Stieb and his 22 IP in Chicago have already been noted.

There needs to be a materiality threshhold.
   21. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5896357)
YOU may not find it interesting, but others do. including me. get over it
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5896362)
I do think it's interesting to look at a team's best players who spent their entire careers with a franchise.

I think it's dumb to present a franchise's best players group that excludes guys who didn't play their entire careers with the club but include guys who won't play their entire careers there.

   23. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5896363)
Pretty easy for the Dodgers: Kershaw-Drysdale-Reese-Robinson.

Yes, pls.
   24. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:46 AM (#5896366)
I think it's dumb to present a franchise's best players group that excludes guys who didn't play their entire careers with the club but include guys who won't play their entire careers there.


Agreed. Last year, Bryce harper would have made the list of best Natspos, but Dawson, Raines, Carter and Vlad would not be on it.
   25. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 11:48 AM (#5896368)
Pretty easy for the Dodgers: Kershaw-Drysdale-Reese-Robinson.


Thing is, you have a pretty good place holder for Kershaw until he retires.
   26. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 30, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5896422)
Cubs are tough. Banks is a no-brainer. Next best career Cub is Stan Hack. And then who?
I was going to suggest Phil Cavarretta, but it turns out he did the Ron Santo thing with the White Sox at the end of his career. I had no idea.
   27. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: October 30, 2019 at 12:49 PM (#5896428)
This is fun. Some people in this thread are taking it way too seriously.
   28. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 30, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5896429)
To make your team’s Rushmore, you can never have played for another team.
That’s rather arbitrary, and has nothing to do with Mount Rushmore. Washington & Jefferson spent much of their lives as British subjects.
   29. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 12:58 PM (#5896434)
The Indians are tough--Feller obviously, but Boudreau played a couple of throwaway years with the Bosox at the end of his career. Bob Lemon has only 37.5 WAR and Al Rosen has 32.6, but other than them there's no one with > 20 lifetime WAR who played only with the Tribe.
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 30, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5896441)
That's really an impossible standard for most of the expansion teams
I can't even think of who would qualify for the Rays or DBacks. Kiermaier I guess for the Rays. Brandon Webb for the DBacks, although I thought he had one or two random starts for another team as a comeback attempt. But looking it up, apparently not - I guess it was a Mark Prior situation where he didn't make it back to the majors.
   31. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 30, 2019 at 01:39 PM (#5896458)
That’s rather arbitrary

So is carving four dudes into a mountain in the Dakotas.
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5896472)
So is carving four dudes into a mountain in the Dakotas.

The crazy part is it was supposed to be full body figures. Borglum's death left it where it is now.
   33. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: October 30, 2019 at 01:54 PM (#5896477)
The Rays notoriously have almost zero players who manage to both begin and end their careers with the Rays. Basically they have to have a career-ending injury in less than 5 years or else they get traded. There's Jeff Niemann, Andy Sonnanstine, and I honestly think the top 4 might have Damian Rolls in it.

Breaking this pattern are two franchise players, Longoria and now Kiermaier.

Of course that's also true of the D-backs but the players don't leave quite as early in their careers. Current player Nick Ahmed might be in their top 4.
   34. Itchy Row Posted: October 30, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5896478)
I'd prefer separating pitchers and hitters into separate mounts. Then Buck Weaver would be on the hitter one carved into Guaranteed Comiskey.

If you go by home runs instead of WAR and don't count active White Sox Jose Abreu and Tim Anderson, the Sox top four would be Ron Karkovice, Dayan Viciedo, Luke Appling, and another Black Sock, Happy Felsch.
   35. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 30, 2019 at 02:17 PM (#5896497)
The Rays notoriously have almost zero players who manage to both begin and end their careers with the Rays.

The A's, even notoriouser.

Not counting active players, the Athletics Rushmore (with bref WAR):
Eddie Rommel (50.3)
Dick Green (16.0)
Daric Barton (9.1)
Steve McCatty (9.2)
   36. Howie Menckel Posted: October 30, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5896555)
Daric Barton (9.1)
Steve McCatty (9.2)

I take this as a subtle reference to the great AL ERA title scandal of 1981

nice way to even the score, I'd say!
   37. cookiedabookie Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5896569)
It would be more interesting to look at this since free agency, given how much harder it is for teams to keep players for their entire careers.
   38. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5896573)
It would be more interesting to look at this since free agency, given how much harder it is for teams to keep players for their entire careers.


True, but even back then, the A's and Braves were serial traders of their legends.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5896574)

It would be more interesting to look at this since free agency, given how much harder it is for teams to keep players for their entire careers.



The Braves and A's indicate that it's never been easy.

Yes, players have more freedom to leave now. They also have more freedom to stay.

   40. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 03:32 PM (#5896586)
The Braves and A's indicate that it's never been easy.


Cubs too. They have Banks and Hack, but after that it's slim pickings. No one from the great 06-10 dynasty, no one (except Hack) from their great 1929-1938 run. No one (except Banks) from their late-60's-early 70's good teams. They would have Sandberg if not for his cup of coffee in 1981. After Hack, their next best are 2 players who likely wouldn't qualify had it not been for abrupt ends to their careers, Hollocher and Prior. They have had 4 HOF second baseman, but their best non-active career 2B is another guy who's career ended abruptly, Ken Hubbs.
   41. Perry Posted: October 30, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5896615)
Cardinals: Musial, Gibson, Molina, Wainwright. For now. (Jesse Haines just misses out -- he pitched 1 game for Cincinnati in 1918, didn't pitch in the majors in 1919, then spent the next 18 years with the Cardinals.)
   42. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 04:36 PM (#5896624)

Yeah, for the Mets it's basically Wright and a bunch of current players. Ed Kranepool played a lot of games, but Pete Alonso had more WAR last season than Kranepool compiled in his career.
   43. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 30, 2019 at 05:45 PM (#5896654)
Bob Lemon has only 37.5 WAR and Al Rosen has 32.6, but other than them there's no one with > 20 lifetime WAR who played only with the Tribe.

to correct myself, I was looking at position players only; turns out Mel Harder (48.5 WAR) and Addie Joss (46.9) clear the 20 WAR mark rather easily while playing only for the Indians.
   44. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 30, 2019 at 06:23 PM (#5896669)
Lemon, Rosen, Harder, and Joss are a fine foursome to pick from to support Feller. That might be about average among the original 16. OTTOMH, Cubs, Braves, A's, Phillies, and WS are worse.
   45. Walt Davis Posted: October 30, 2019 at 10:08 PM (#5896848)
Further on #40 ... you also have Santo's one season with the White Sox (certainly not his idea), Chance's 33 PAs as player-manager with the Yanks, Hartnett's 165 PA with the Giants and Root's 60 innings with the Browns. If we had something like a 95% rule, the Cubs Rushmore would look very good. That might be true of other teams of course.
   46. bbmck Posted: October 31, 2019 at 01:44 AM (#5897231)
42 of 196 players with 50+ position player WAR only played for one franchise (so far).
15 of 103 players with 50+ pitching WAR only played for one franchise (so far).

7 - NYY
5 - DET, LAD
4 - BOS, CIN
3 - BAL, CHW, MIN, SFG
2 - CHC, HOU, PIT, SEA, STL
1 - ATL, CLE, COL, KCR, LAA, MIL, NYM, OAK, PHI, SDP

WSN - Steve Rogers 45.1
ARI - Brandon Webb 33.0
TEX - Elvis Andrus 31.7
TBR - Kevin Kiermaier 26.2
MIA - Jose Fernandez 12.8
TOR - Luis Leal 10.6
   47. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 31, 2019 at 01:44 AM (#5897232)
Pretty easy for the Dodgers: Kershaw-Drysdale-Reese-Robinson.

Pretty easy, yet you still screwed it up.
   48. bbmck Posted: October 31, 2019 at 02:43 AM (#5897239)
Debut since 1961, position or pitching WAR only to level the field somewhat for expansion franchises:

245.9 - CIN: Johnny Bench, Barry Larkin, Joey Votto, Dave Concepcion
237.8 - BOS: Carl Yastrzemski, Dustin Pedroia, Jim Rice, Mookie Betts
226.1 - NYY: Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry
221.7 - DET: Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Bill Freehan, John Hiller
211.4 - HOU: Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Jose Altuve, Don Wilson

207.1 - BAL: Cal Ripken Jr, Jim Palmer, Chris Hoiles, Scott McGregor
194.8 - MIN: Joe Mauer, Kirby Puckett, Brad Radke, Tony Oliva
185.8 - KCR: George Brett, Alex Gordon, Frank White, Dennis Leonard
178.2 - MIL: Robin Yount, Ryan Braun, Teddy Higuera, Jim Gantner
178.1 - NYY2: Roy White, Thurman Munson, Jorge Posada, Don Mattingly

166.3 - SEA: Edgar Martinez, Felix Hernandez, Kyle Seager, Hisashi Iwakuma
155.6 - ATL: Chipper Jones, Freddie Freeman, Julio Teheran, Rick Camp
152.2 - PHI: Mike Schmidt, Aaron Nola, Ryan Howard, Cesar Hernandez or Odubel Herrera
145.7 - LAD: Clayton Kershaw, Bill Russell, Mike Scioscia, Wes Parker
142.8 - WSN: Steve Rogers, Ryan Zimmerman, Stephen Strasburg, Anthony Rendon

141.2 - LAA: Mike Trout, Tim Salmon, Kole Calhoun, Scot Shields
137.9 - SFG: Buster Posey, Robby Thompson, Madison Bumgarner, Matt Cain
135.9 - COL: Todd Helton, Nolan Arenado, Charlie Blackmon, Trevor Story
124.9 - PIT: Willie Stargell, Starling Marte, Gene Alley, Francisco Cordova
118.5 - STL: Yadier Molina, Adam Wainwright, Matt Carpenter, Kolten Wong

110 - NYM: David Wright, Jacob deGrom, Noah Syndergaard, Michael Conforto
109.3 - CLE: Corey Kluber, Francisco Lindor, Jose Ramirez, Jason Kipnis
90.9 - SDP: Tony Gwynn, Tim Flannery, Manuel Margot, Hunter Renfroe
78 - CHC: Kris Bryant, Kyle Hendricks, Javier Baez, Mark Prior
74 - CHW: Jose Abreu, John Danks, Britt Burns, Ron Karkovice

73.7 - TEX: Elvis Andrus, Rusty Greer, Roger Pavlik, Matt Harrison
63.8 - ARI: Brandon Webb, David Peralta, Nick Ahmed, Jake Lamb
56.5 - TBR: Kevin Kiermaier, Desmond Jennings, Blake Snell, Willy Adames
55.7 - OAK: Matt Chapman, Dick Green, Matt Olson, Steve McCatty
34.4 - TOR: Luis Leal, Ricky Romero, Jerry Garvin, Devon Travis
27 - MIA: Jose Fernandez, Brian Anderson, Renyel Pinto, Chuck Smith

Only the Yankees have any players with 40+ WAR who don't make Top 4 and they have 6 also Brett Gardner and Mel Stottlemyre with Rico Petrocelli 39.2 and Kent Hrbek 38.6 coming closest.

Highest % of Top 4 combined:

76.1 - Tony Gwynn
70.2 - Mike Schmidt
54.8 - Chipper Jones
51.7 - Brandon Webb
51.3 - Mike Trout

47.7 - George Brett
47.4 - Jose Fernandez
46.4 - Kevin Kiermaier
46.3 - Cal Ripken Jr
46.0 - Willie Stargell
45.8 - David Wright

45.0 - Todd Helton
44.9 - Clayton Kershaw
43.4 - Robin Yount
43.0 - Elvis Andrus
41.1 - Edgar Martinez
40.5 - Carl Yastrzemski
   49. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: October 31, 2019 at 06:23 AM (#5897252)
Tigers are pretty solid with Kaline, Trammell, Whitaker and Freehan.

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