Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, June 07, 2022

Angels dismiss Maddon amid 12-game losing streak

The Angels relieved Joe Maddon of his duties as manager, the team announced on Tuesday. Phil Nevin, who had been the third-base coach, was named interim manager.

The move comes amid a 12-game losing streak that has dropped the Angels to under .500 at 27-29.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:22 PM | 61 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, joe maddon

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Walt Davis Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:35 PM (#6080439)
I wasn't expecting this (not that I had contemplated the question). It's just his 3rd season there and one of those was 2020. He's 68 so this might be it although he could become the next Dusty I suppose. High peak but low career value by manager standards, not a strong HoF case.
   2. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:44 PM (#6080444)
I wasn't expecting this


Me neither, and I don't think I agree with it. But I'll see what the Angels fans think.
   3. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6080445)
The Angels' record is better this year than last, and was better in 2021 than it had been in 2020. But not by a lot.
   4. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:50 PM (#6080449)
All the Angels need is a player-manager like Tris Speaker or Lou Boudreau.
   5. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 07, 2022 at 04:59 PM (#6080452)
I could be wrong, but I suspect the Angels think they are better than they really are. They have the greatest player of his generation in Trout, and only have a few more years with him before he starts falling from his peak (and perhaps deals with injuries even more frequently). They also have probably the most interesting and marketable star in the game in Ohtani.

And yet...they just aren't that good.

The American League, even with six playoff spots, is looking increasingly like three division winners and then the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th-place teams from the AL East as the wild cards. For the Angels, they probably have to win their division to make the playoffs - and that's not happening.

Eventually, regardless of the reasons for this failure despite these two centerpiece stars, you fire the manager.
   6. The Duke Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:02 PM (#6080454)
They love firing overpaid old guys before their contract is up. Pujols, Upton, Maddon. I'm sure there must be more
   7. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:06 PM (#6080455)
Is there a franchise that's handed out more big-money loser contracts in the last decade or so than the Angels? It's kind of crazy that they developed one of the best talents of a generation and yet they've been so spectacularly bad at fielding even remotely competitive teams for the bulk of that player's career.
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:26 PM (#6080463)
All the Angels need is a player-manager like Tris Speaker or Lou Boudreau.
Trout's managerial skills are suspect, judging from his fantasy football commissionering.
   9. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:26 PM (#6080464)
I could be wrong, but I suspect the Angels think they are better than they really are.
They're certainly better than this. They went from 24-13 to 27-29 in three weeks. Rendon's never quite gotten right then got hurt, Ward got hurt, Fletcher got hurt, Stassi got hurt, Suzuki got hurt. The Angels were suddenly playing Rengifo, Velazquez, Wade, and Chad Wallach every day. Marsh stopped hitting, Adell never started to. In the 19 games since their highwater mark, they're only averaging 3.25 runs per game, which grades out to the second-worst in the league. Their offense is top-heavy, so if (like right now) Trout and Ohtani and Walsh are struggling, the AAA squad they're playing because of injuries can't generate any help. Maddon's tinkering and juggling can't fix missing personnel.

The six-man rotation IS working, but the bullpen has nosedived during this stretch. Tepera and Loup have been bad, and Iglesias has been particularly horrible, with two blown saves and four losses in his last seven games. I DO think it's Maddon's fault for having six starters (5.5 of whom have been solid) and still somehow overusing his bullpen.

I think the team's a lot better than 27-29, but given what's happened, it's hard to see them making a serious playoff run now.
   10. Tin Angel Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:37 PM (#6080467)
Weird, what happened to the Angels SB nation site? Went there to see what Angels fans thought and nothing has been posted there since March.
   11. John Northey Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:39 PM (#6080468)
Do the Angels have any options at SS other than Andrew Velazquez (43 OPS+)? If not then it is hard to blame the manager for a GM choice. There were lots of really, really good SS's out there last winter but the guy the Angels are using was a waiver wire loss by the Yankees who is hitting dead on his career OPS+. Seems more a GM issue than a manager problem to me.

As to Maddon's HOF case - unless he gets another shot I don't see it. 754-705 with 1 WS title and 1 WS loss (8 playoff appearances, 4 as a wild card). Cito Gaston is never talked about for the HOF but has 2 WS titles and a 894-837 record (5 playoff appearances, all pre-wild card)
   12. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:40 PM (#6080469)
It's kind of crazy that they developed one of the best talents of a generation and yet they've been so spectacularly bad at fielding even remotely competitive teams for the bulk of that player's career.
The Angels picked Trout (and Grichuk and Garrett Richards) in 2009. From the 2010 draft up through this past year, the Angels have managed to draft exactly two players that have netted them even 5 career WAR for the organization: Kole Calhoun and David Fletcher. They've either been unable to develop prospects, or have traded them away for win-now players that didn't help them win now.
   13. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:55 PM (#6080477)
All the Angels need is a player-manager like Tris Speaker or Lou Boudreau.


Ohtani will do it in his spare time.
   14. McCoy Posted: June 07, 2022 at 05:56 PM (#6080478)
What happened to Maddon? Went from beloved Rays manager to breaking the curse in Chicago to everybody fine with Maddon out in Chicago and now 2.3 seasons in Anaheim and fired.
   15. Addie Joss Posted: June 07, 2022 at 06:07 PM (#6080482)
I've watched at least parts of all of the Angels' twelve consecutive losses and find it striking how similar their situation has been to that of the Phillies, who also couldn't buy a win and fired a reasonably respected manager (although Girardi is intense and Maddon appears to be the opposite). Both teams have had horrendous relief pitching over the last month, mostly by their most depended-on relievers and have also had really bad baseball luck - line drive at'em balls on offense with men on base and bloopers falling in on defense. The Angels are at least average defensively, though, unlike the Phils.
Neither managerial change will fix the two teams' underlying problems although they may cause their players to be a little more relaxed in the short term.
   16. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: June 07, 2022 at 06:29 PM (#6080485)
this is from an interview with Maddon today with the Athletic
It’s been kind of difficult overall. I’m into analytics, but not to the point where everybody wants to shove it down your throat. Real baseball people have felt somewhat impacted by all of this. You’re unable to just go to the ballpark and have some fun and play baseball. It’s too much controlled by front offices these days.


mmmmm- "real baseball people"?-that kinda surpises me, although it was apparently well-known that he and GM Perry Minasian didn't get along
   17. rr would lock Shaq's a$$ up Posted: June 07, 2022 at 06:33 PM (#6080486)
I think #12 is a big part of the answer to #14.
   18. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 06:45 PM (#6080489)
Weird, what happened to the Angels SB nation site?
That's what happens when you make people work for free. Most of the regulars went over to Crashing The Pearly Gates, where they can at least try and get some advertising and Patreon money, aren't beholden to corporate masters, and can curse and scream to their hearts' delight.
   19. Jay Seaver Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:01 PM (#6080492)
What happened to Maddon?


I always figured he was temperamentally suited to the situation in Tampa Bay where he was able to deflect attention and pressure from the younger players to let them grow into things, with a front office was happy to try and develop oddball counter-intuitive strategies (with less pressure because the Yankees and Red Sox were expected to win), but that once he got to Chicago and Anaheim, he had players who didn't necessarily want his Spirit Week stunts and who were in a position to push back on how they were used, plus higher-ups who expected to be #1.
   20. JimMusComp misses old primer... Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:07 PM (#6080493)
The management of the SB Nation sites went through some weird restructuring a while back. The management of Halos Heaven all left and started a superior site - Crashing The Pearly Gates.

Same folks. Good site. FYI.

I can’t believe they fired Maddon. This will change nothing. And I hate Phil Nevin running things. He’s a poor man’s Terry Collins.

Yuk.

[EDIT] Coke to Hombre
   21. The Duke Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:09 PM (#6080494)
There's plenty of active SBNation sites. Some are slow but I've not noticed one completely dormant. The Cubs site is Huge with a lot of content. The Braves site is excellent.
   22. Buck Coats Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:29 PM (#6080502)
The Angels picked Trout (and Grichuk and Garrett Richards) in 2009. From the 2010 draft up through this past year, the Angels have managed to draft exactly two players that have netted them even 5 career WAR for the organization: Kole Calhoun and David Fletcher.


I don't think this is all that unique though - in that time-span the Yankees also have drafted only two players who have gotten to 5 career WAR (admittedly one of them is Aaron Judge) (and not counting Jon Gray, who they drafted in the 10th round but couldn't sign).
   23. Steve Sparks Flying Everywhere Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:29 PM (#6080503)
The Angels picked Trout (and Grichuk and Garrett Richards) in 2009. From the 2010 draft up through this past year, the Angels have managed to draft exactly two players that have netted them even 5 career WAR for the organization: Kole Calhoun and David Fletcher. They've either been unable to develop prospects, or have traded them away for win-now players that didn't help them win now.


It’s really quite remarkable how bad the farm system has been the last few years. Artie’s active “management” of the teams hasn’t done them any favors either (signing Gary Mathews Jr, Pujols, Hamilton, etc, trading for Vernon wells and Kazmir, etc)
   24. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:30 PM (#6080504)
mmmmm- "real baseball people"?-that kinda surpises me, although it was apparently well-known that he and GM Perry Minasian didn't get along


In the later years in Chicago there was an undercurrent of this as well. The Cubs front office said in one postseason press conference that launch angle is not a fad. I think the latest turn of analytics into Statcast and the rise of a new level of Big Data left Maddon a bit cold. As front offices have bought into it with both feet, Maddon is on the outs more.

but that once he got to Chicago and Anaheim, he had players who didn't necessarily want his Spirit Week stunts and who were in a position to push back on how they were used, plus higher-ups who expected to be #1.


I can't comment on Anaheim, but the Cub players never had any problem with him. Relations worsened with the front office (as seen in the first part of this post). Also, he rather strangely wasn't bulletproof with the fans after '16. In fact, pretty much every pitching move he made in Games Six and Seven of the World Series were questioned in real time - and many backfired immediately. People still liked him as a manager overall, but felt the Cubs had to overcome him in those games to win. Then the Cubs spent a few years regressing instead of improving or maintaing, and the fans threw their lot in with Theo & Jed.
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: June 07, 2022 at 07:53 PM (#6080515)
People still liked him as a manager overall, but felt the Cubs had to overcome him in those games to win.


He also had considerable help from the other dugout.
   26. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:07 PM (#6080518)
I don't think this is all that unique though - in that time-span the Yankees also have drafted only two players who have gotten to 5 career WAR (admittedly one of them is Aaron Judge)
I think it might be. The Yankees are constantly reloading, so it's not totally shocking that they're willing to either trade prospects for vets, or discard them if they don't work out promptly -- which is how the Angels treat prospects. Just looking alphabetically at the list, I see that Arizona has six players and Atlanta has eight that fit the >5 WAR criteria in the same timeframe. I'm curious enough to see what the list for all 30 teams looks like. It'll take a few days, though.
   27. Jay Seaver Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:18 PM (#6080521)
24 - The impression I often got was that Joe Maddon really likes having a free hand more than most, especially if it means that the next day's game story is about how clever Joe Maddon is, and this was going to cause problems if he had to compete with anyone. In Tampa, the players churned and both management and ownership seemingly liked to stay in the background.

Anyway, good riddance. On top of his success annoying me as a Red Sox fan, he seemed like one of the guys most likely to use the passive voice around hit-by-pitch situations, saying that "something was going to happen".
   28. salvomania Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:23 PM (#6080522)
I'm curious enough to see what the list for all 30 teams looks like. It'll take a few days, though.

Cardinals have six who have accumulated at least 5 WAR with them, plus another four with 5+ combined WAR with multiple teams.
   29. JJ1986 Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:29 PM (#6080524)
I'm curious enough to see what the list for all 30 teams looks like. It'll take a few days, though.

The Mets have 5 on their team right now - deGrom, Nimmo, McNeil, Alonso and Lugo. I think the rest of the list is Harvey and Conforto.
   30. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:30 PM (#6080525)
From the 2010 draft up through this past year, the Angels have managed to draft exactly two players that have netted them even 5 career WAR for the organization: Kole Calhoun and David Fletcher.
International free agents can offset some poor drafts, but my hunch is that most teams that are bad in one area aren’t much better in the other.
   31. NaOH Posted: June 07, 2022 at 08:48 PM (#6080528)
I don't think this is all that unique though - in that time-span the Yankees also have drafted only two players who have gotten to 5 career WAR (admittedly one of them is Aaron Judge) (and not counting Jon Gray, who they drafted in the 10th round but couldn't sign).


Limiting things to the draft is kinda weird. I'd credit any team for any player who exceeds rookie limits with them. Smart enough to trade a vet when you're out of contention and get a good prospect (e.g., Gleyber)? Good on you. Signed an undrafted free agent (e.g., Severino)? Well done. Turned some longtime minor leaguer into something useful (e.g., Chad Green)? I wonder what that team recognized and/or adjusted with that player.
   32. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 09:02 PM (#6080530)
Limiting things to the draft is kinda weird. I'd credit any team for any player who exceeds rookie limits with them.
You're absolutely right. In fact, I'd say that if a team drafts for a prospect, and that prospect spends time in those minors before getting to the bigs as a rookie with that organization, that counts as well. International and amateur free agents, those count, also.

The Angels would still have only Calhoun and Fletcher. SIGH.
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: June 07, 2022 at 09:02 PM (#6080531)
People still liked him as a manager overall, but felt the Cubs had to overcome him in those games to win.



He also had considerable help from the other dugout.


I didn't have a dog in that hunt, and obviously Francona and Maddon have been very successful overall, but the grandstanding maneuvering by both of them was nothing like I've ever seen before or since. it was a like bizarro poker game where each manager tried to come up with the most clever way to lose the Series.

then it came down to the very last card - and Francona flipped over a 4 OPS+ regular season/hitless postseason Michael Martinez to make the last out. Maddon did all he could, but he was stuck with the trophy and immortality in Wrigleyville. well played, Mr. Francona, well played.
   34. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: June 07, 2022 at 09:16 PM (#6080536)
Limiting things to the draft is kinda weird. I'd credit any team for any player who exceeds rookie limits with them.
But even that shortchanges teams' player-development abilities, because, for example, the Dodgers pulled off the scrap heap dudes like Justin Turner (31.9 WAR) and Chris Taylor (15.7).
   35. NaOH Posted: June 07, 2022 at 09:34 PM (#6080539)
But even that shortchanges teams' player-development abilities....


Absolutely. I was just taking an angle on developing new talent. The point, ultimately—and I don't say this as if I'm educating anyone—is that the good teams find and develop talent in all sorts of ways and us focusing on only one area (e.g., the draft) isn't apt to indicate much about any particular organization.
   36. Brian C Posted: June 07, 2022 at 10:47 PM (#6080551)
I'm curious enough to see what the list for all 30 teams looks like. It'll take a few days, though.

Cubs have four, all in the first round: Happ, Schwarber, Bryant, and Baez. Couple more guys on the current roster over 3 and heading in the right direction with Hoerner and Thompson. Then there's Bote, still around and also over 3, although he's been heading in the wrong direction the last couple years and is hurt now.

Going by NaOH's standard ("exceeded rookie limits"), you'd add Rizzo, Hendricks, and Addison Russell.
   37. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 07, 2022 at 10:50 PM (#6080553)
I'd add Hendricks. I'm most concerned with player development, and Rizzo and Russell got essentially zero minor league development with the Cub organization.
   38. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: June 07, 2022 at 10:56 PM (#6080557)
Annnnnnnnd Trout leaves the game with an injury.

Good luck, Phil!
   39. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: June 07, 2022 at 11:16 PM (#6080558)
It's kind of crazy that they developed one of the best talents of a generation and yet they've been so spectacularly bad at fielding even remotely competitive teams for the bulk of that player's career.


I'm not sure they developed Trout at all. He showed up in the minors and performed way over his head at the age of 17. He was in the majors at 19. At 20 he was the best player in the game and he has been ever since. He has refined skills that major league teams don't even purport to teach at the major league level ever since.

Are they good or bad at development? Hell, I don't know. But Mike Trout was going to be a superstar no matter who drafted him.
   40. Walt Davis Posted: June 07, 2022 at 11:21 PM (#6080559)
Huh? Woulda thought 49 G and 153 PA and 66 (I think) service days with SD would have put Rizzo over the rookie limit.

I DO think it's Maddon's fault for having six starters (5.5 of whom have been solid) and still somehow overusing his bullpen.

That's a funny thing. You'd think a move from the 4 to 4.5 to 5-man rotation would increase IP/start as it decreased starts ... but it never did or not for very long at least. So 2022 Angels average 5.1 IP/GS with Lorenzen (a workhorse at 6.0) the only one over 5.3. The ML average is 5.1. Now if the 6-man rotation helps keep Ohtani's arm and bat fresh then it's probably still worth it; otherwise it's just shifting some innings for every starter to Chase Silseth which seems not a great idea at least in the short term (he's just 22 though).

I become more intrigued by the idea of the 4-man, 4-5 IP/start idea all the time. Give Cole his usual 180-200 IP spread across 40 starts and keep those #5/6 starters off the field as much as possible -- teams are gonna use 25 different relievers anyway.

Back to Maddon, as I posted in the other thread ... 10 games back in just 60 games in 2020, 18 back last year, already 8.5 back this year. Something's definitely not working. Sure looks more personnel-related that managerial but ya gotta start somewhere. The Upton comparison is kinda apt -- Maddon's a very expensive manager but he's not producing.
   41. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 07, 2022 at 11:42 PM (#6080563)

The management of the SB Nation sites went through some weird restructuring a while back. The management of Halos Heaven all left and started a superior site - Crashing The Pearly Gates.

Same folks. Good site. FYI.


Eh, the guy that ran Halos Heaven wrote a terrible column about Josh Hamilton's addiction and got canned, but a lot of the readers left with him to his new site. It's been a ghost town since. That and the Padres site are pretty empty, but the rest of the baseball sites are pretty active from what I can tell (full disclosure, I run the Royals site)
   42. Howie Menckel Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:02 AM (#6080567)
wow, that column is astounding - and in the worst possible way.
   43. The Honorable Ardo Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:31 AM (#6080569)
Maddon loves to be a contrarian and to be considered smart. He came too late historically; in the heyday of newspapers, he'd have columnists eating out of his hand and lauding his "genius". In the Internet era, it's harder to get away with that shtick.

Kevin Cash is a better manager than Maddon.
   44. SoSH U at work Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:53 AM (#6080574)
Eh, the guy that ran Halos Heaven wrote a terrible column about Josh Hamilton's addiction and got canned, but a lot of the readers left with him to his new site. It's been a ghost town since. That and the Padres site are pretty empty, but the rest of the baseball sites are pretty active from what I can tell (full disclosure, I run the Royals site)


That guy (Halofan) was an occasional primate. For some reason, many of our Angel fans defended him, but he has a history of awfulness. Some of it was on display at BTF.

   45. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 08, 2022 at 02:34 AM (#6080583)
Huh? Woulda thought 49 G and 153 PA and 66 (I think) service days with SD would have put Rizzo over the rookie limit.

Rookie status relies on AB rather than PA, for some unknown reason. Rizzo had 153 PA but he walked a ton, so he only had 128 AB (130 AB is the limit). Presumably enough of his service days came in September, when they don't count against rookie status.

Mike Trout had 135 PA but only 124 AB in his "pre-rookie" year.
   46. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 08, 2022 at 04:58 AM (#6080584)
For some reason, many of our Angel fans defended him, but he has a history of awfulness. Some of it was on display at BTF.
He's not a terrible person, but he did write a terrible column. He earned his firing.
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: June 08, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6080589)
He's not a terrible person, but he did write a terrible column.


That wasn't the only time he acted terribly. And he was almost always a troll when he posted here.
   48. John Northey Posted: June 08, 2022 at 11:14 AM (#6080619)
There is no excuse for the poor work by the front office. Check the Jays since 2015 when they won their division for the first time since 1993 - they sold the farm to get that division title, but since drafted 2016 (WAR in brackets): Bo Bichette (10.6), Cavan Biggio (5.5), 2017: Riley Adams (0.9), Kevin Smith (0 but a part of the Chapman trade), Nate Pearson (negative WAR but still seen as a top prospect by some), 2018: top 100 prospect in Jordan Groshans, 2019: Alek Manoah (5.2 WAR and climbing), 2020: Austin Martin (Critical in trade for Berrios), 2021: Ricky Tiedemann in 3rd round - climbing top 100 lists now.

That isn't factoring in their insane skill on the IFA front (Alejandro Kirk - signed September 2016 for next to nothing), Lourdes Gurriel Jr. (signed Nov 2016 to a $20+ mil deal that runs out after next season), among others.

Yes, it is nice being a Jays fan right now. Vlad was signed in 2015 btw. The Jays did all this while never losing 100 games, their worse was 95 losses in 2019 (still not last in their division). In fact the Jays have lost 90+ only twice this century.
   49. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:50 PM (#6080632)
I'm not sure they developed Trout at all. He showed up in the minors and performed way over his head at the age of 17. He was in the majors at 19. At 20 he was the best player in the game and he has been ever since. He has refined skills that major league teams don't even purport to teach at the major league level ever since.

Are they good or bad at development? Hell, I don't know. But Mike Trout was going to be a superstar no matter who drafted him.


I agree that Trout was going to be awesome no matter who drafted him, but I give the Angels credit because...they drafted him, and a bunch of teams skipped over him. He was the 25th pick of the 1st round; of the 24 players elected ahead of him, 10 have 0 career WAR or less (some have negative WAR from a cup of coffee in the bigs). Some of those 10, of course, never even made the major leagues. It is such a crapshoot, but if you pick Mike Trout, you get credit for it, period.

I also give the Angels credit for not getting too cute with figuring out how to pay him to stay with the Angels. Take it from this Red Sox fan who saw Mookie get traded away because they determined they couldn't possibly sign him to an extension...it isn't a gimme. Wayne Gretzky eventually left Edmonton. Lebron left Cleveland (and came back, and left again, but whatever). Brady left the Patriots. It is not a gimme that these generational stars are going to stay with your team forever, so to the extent that they were able to come up with a deal that kept him there - they get credit for that, too.

But they lose some credit for not being able to help keep him healthy, and they obviously lose credit for being unable to put a quality team around him. They are in the LA market, have plenty of money, have Mike Trout, have Ohtani...how are they not able to put together a sustained quality team around these assets? And it is actually hurting the sport, because the best player *Trout) and most marketable player (Ohtani) are somehow still toiling in relative anonymity, because the team always sucks.
   50. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:51 PM (#6080633)
As a Rangers fan who quickly tired of all the coddling and excuse making Hamilton required, I'm having a hard time finding what's so objectionable about the column. He hasn't managed to kill anyone yet but has racked up a felony indictment for injury to a child after assaulting his daughter then cutting a deal to plead out to misdemeanor unlawful restraint.
   51. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 08, 2022 at 12:59 PM (#6080635)
You don't find this objectionable?


Josh, when you finally die of a drug related matter it won’t be Arte Moreno’s fault. It won’t be the fault of the good fans in Anaheim who figured out your little game. They might have Donnie Moore’s karma on them but they won’t have yours. As much as I would like to say the blame for your future fate lies with the enabling national media and coddling players union, I think of Steve Howe’s face crushed against his truck’s windshield on a lonely interstate highway with crystal meth in his bloodstream and I know that all the blame will be on you, all of it, as it was with Howe. I can only hope that when you do yourself in, which you will, that, mercifully like Howe, you take nobody else with you.

   52. Nasty Nate Posted: June 08, 2022 at 01:01 PM (#6080636)
As a Rangers fan who quickly tired of all the coddling and excuse making Hamilton required, I'm having a hard time finding what's so objectionable about the column. He hasn't managed to kill anyone yet but has racked up a felony indictment for injury to a child after assaulting his daughter then cutting a deal to plead out to misdemeanor unlawful restraint.
Here's the thread about it if you are curious why people here disliked the column: https://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand/discussion/dmn_sb_nation_fires_angels_blogger_for_article_that_crossed_the_line_in_rip/P100

The moralizing was clearly phony, as the underlying reason for the author's criticism of Hamilton was because he was a poor acquisition for his favorite baseball team.
   53. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 08, 2022 at 02:20 PM (#6080648)
He hasn't managed to kill anyone yet


He kinda did.
   54. The Duke Posted: June 08, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6080669)
Nightengale has an article up saying that Pujols told Minasian they could never win with Maddon and that several vets thanked him for doing that (Trout, I assume )
   55. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: June 08, 2022 at 06:27 PM (#6080696)
Different sports and all but this is VERY similar to the Boston Bruins (NHL) firing their coach this week. Both Maddon and Bruin coach Bruce Cassidy probably had some issues that could be improved upon but both teams have surrounded Hall of Fame level top talent with not nearly enough and a completely barren farm system behind hit.
   56. Walt Davis Posted: June 08, 2022 at 09:41 PM (#6080743)
Getting at development in a more general sense ... but not as easily as I'd like ... here is some attempt to summarise recent debuts by year:

2010
40+ WAR: Donaldson, Sale, Stanton, Freeman
30+: Heyward, Cain, Strasburg, Santana (didn't know he'd been that good)
20+: Arrieta, Austin Jackson (!), Kimbrel
15+: A Chapman, Minor, K Jansen, S Castro, Lucroy, Leake, Dyson, Ramos

2011
40+: Trout, Goldschmidt, Altuve
30+: Rizzo, K Seager, Kluber, B Crawford, S Perez, Lynn
20+: JDM, DJL, Belt, Carpenter, T Frazier, Kipnis (remember him?), Duffy, Teheran, Blackmon
15+: Hosmer, Miley, Lawrie (not Lowrie), Eovaldi, Cozart (remember him?)

2012
40+: Machado, Harper
30+: Andrelton, S Marte
20+: Segura, Darvish, B Dozier, Quintana, Pollock, Cespedes, Bauer, Grandal, Keuchel
15+: Didi, Eaton, Y Gomes, Iwakuma, Corbin, Calhoun

2013
40+: Arenado
30+: Yelich, Rendon, Cole, Kiermaier, Bogaerts, Semien
20+: S Gray, Wheeler, Schoop, Wong, Ozuna, Ryu
15+: Puig, JBJ, Roark, Gausman, Pillar

2014 (a pretty shallow year)
40+: Betts, DeGrom
30+: Springer
20+: Abreu, Realmuto, Baez, Hendricks
15+: Inciarte, Stroman, Tanaka, Pham, C Taylor, E Hernandez, Suarez, Ray, D Peralta

2015
30+: Correa, Lindor
20+: Bryant, T Turner, Nola, C Seager
15+: K Marte, Buxton, Kepler, Conforto, Noah, Muncy, Gallo

2016
20+: Judge, Story, Bregman, Contreras
15+: Olson, T Anderson, Merrifield, Marquez
10+: Haniger, Benintndi, Clevinger, Nimmo, Y Gurriel, Manaea, Snell, Moncada, Fulmer, Taillon, Wendle, A Frazier, Berrios, Margot, Giolito, Swanson, Mancini, Musgrove

I'll stop there. Quick point is to point out that if your team has developed a Schoop, Wong, Austin Jackson, Benintendi, Mancini then that's a significant development success. Somebody like Kyle Schwarber over his 7 "seasons" prior to 2022 had about 4 full seasons of PAs and 9 WAR -- it's a long, hard road to be a genuine impact player.
   57. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 08, 2022 at 09:49 PM (#6080746)
Here's the thread about it if you are curious why people here disliked the column:
That didn't seem that long ago, but seven years really few by. Seeing Harvey's name show up was nice. It's weird how Matt Welch used to be a reasonable-sounding human.

The Angels haven't had a .500 season since 2015.
   58. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 08, 2022 at 10:09 PM (#6080758)
Cubs have four, all in the first round: Happ, Schwarber, Bryant, and Baez. Couple more guys on the current roster over 3 and heading in the right direction with Hoerner and Thompson. Then there's Bote, still around and also over 3, although he's been heading in the wrong direction the last couple years and is hurt now.

Going by NaOH's standard ("exceeded rookie limits"), you'd add Rizzo, Hendricks, and Addison Russell.


Again, it's not quite right to limit it to the draft. The Cubs also have Jorge Soler, Willson Contreras, Welington Castillo, Hector Rondon.
   59. Walt Davis Posted: June 08, 2022 at 10:10 PM (#6080759)
Some summary ... definitions but looks like about 20 "really big" stars over 7 seasons. Taking half of that 10+ group, lets call it 124 players to make the list, about 4 per team over 7 years. Of course that includes some guys (e.g. Abreu, Iwakuma, Gurriel, Darvish) who clearly weren't developed by a MLB team plus the Mike Trouts if you want to count them or not. The advantage of that list of course is that it doesn't care about draft, international FA, foreign league, etc.

It's kinda fascinating, but not surprising, that Todd Frazier and Jason Kipnis debuted the same year as Trout, did quite well, but their careers are already over. Chalie Blackmon will be joining them soon enough.

Call it 34 starters plus the 3 big closers of this era (all in 2011 ... interesting).

It would be interesting to see a team breakdown if somebody wants to take that one. The DBacks seem to have done pretty well -- Goldschmidt, Pollock, Eaton, Peralta, Corbin, K Marte, Inciarte, drafted Swanson, traded for young Didi and Robbie Ray. Hasn't done them a lot of good and Peralta and Marte are the only two still around.
   60. Brian C Posted: June 08, 2022 at 10:17 PM (#6080763)
Again, it's not quite right to limit it to the draft. The Cubs also have Jorge Soler, Willson Contreras, Welington Castillo, Hector Rondon.

I didn't limit it to the draft, which is why I made sure to mention Rizzo, Hendricks, and Russell.

Castillo and Contreras were both acquired pre-2010, so I excluded them, because the initial criteria put forth was "drafted" 2010 and after.

Soler doesn't meet the criteria - only 1.1 WAR with the Cubs (and only 4.3 total).

Same with Rondon - only 4 WAR with the Cubs and 4.9 overall.
   61. BDC Posted: June 08, 2022 at 10:31 PM (#6080764)
#56 is a pretty depressing list for the Rangers. Looks like only Darvish and Gallo debuted with them, of the 15+ group, unless I am missing somebody obvious; and as mentioned, Darvish was hardly their development; they paid a lot of money for his services, even if good value.

If you drop the threshold to 5+ you get such luminaries as Robinson Chirinos, Martin Perez, Rougned Odor, Delino DeShields, Jurickson Profar, Nomar Mazara, Isiah Kiner-Falefa, and Adolis Garcia. (They did not develop Garcia either but they gave him a shot in the majors.) Some of those guys had good years (Perez is back and having one now for them), but as a collection it's pretty much "minimum necessary to maintain a major-league team on the field" which squares with their W-L record for the last 5 years or so.

Meanwhile several awesome, very young stars have debuted since 2016 – none of them with Texas.

I guess things can only get better …

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Brian
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogTwitter: Andres Gimenez makes a great, heads-up play
(3 - 11:06pm, Aug 15)
Last: My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo

NewsblogRangers fire manager Chris Woodward in midst of fourth straight losing season
(17 - 11:05pm, Aug 15)
Last: Jaack

NewsblogOMNICHATTER for the week of August 15-22, 2022
(15 - 10:46pm, Aug 15)
Last: The Duke

NewsblogThe AL MVP race is closer than you think
(24 - 10:34pm, Aug 15)
Last: sunday silence (again)

NewsblogFernando Tatis Jr. offers ridiculous lie as excuse for cheating
(16 - 10:18pm, Aug 15)
Last: Dillon Gee Escape Plan

NewsblogMajor League Baseball's postseason schedule could feature latest calendar date in World Series history
(14 - 9:42pm, Aug 15)
Last: Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - European Leages Return
(39 - 8:29pm, Aug 15)
Last: AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale

Newsblog2022 NBA Playoffs thread
(4163 - 7:41pm, Aug 15)
Last: 57i66135 is a hard word for me.

NewsblogForecasting The 2022-23 Qualifying Offers: Position Players - MLB Trade Rumors
(12 - 6:31pm, Aug 15)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogTwitter: Wynton Bernard makes the major leagues [video]
(5 - 4:45pm, Aug 15)
Last: ReggieThomasLives

Sox TherapyPredictions of Ridiculousness
(73 - 4:12pm, Aug 15)
Last: Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful

NewsblogHochman: Ozzie Smith, '82 Cardinals celebrate 40 years since World Series title | Benjamin Hochman | stltoday.com
(6 - 3:40pm, Aug 15)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogJourneyman Wynton Bernard keys Colorado Rockies win after 10 seasons in minors
(3 - 3:29pm, Aug 15)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogGM Mike Elias: Orioles Will “Significantly Escalate The Payroll” During Offseason
(13 - 3:25pm, Aug 15)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogYankees in desperate need of jolt as feeble slide continues to grow concern
(3 - 3:17pm, Aug 15)
Last: Walt Davis

Page rendered in 0.5523 seconds
46 querie(s) executed