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Wednesday, June 08, 2022

Angels resort to nothing but Nickelback walk-up songs amid 13-game losing streak

On the verge of a franchise record for consecutive losses and having already fired their manager, the Angels decided to make a change on Wednesday by walking up to nothing but Nickelback songs against the Boston Red Sox.

Yes, really.

For posterity, here is the full set list, via intrepid ESPN reporter Alden Gonzalez:

Shohei Ohtani: “Photograph”

Jo Adell: “Rockstar”

Jared Walsh: “How You Remind Me”

Matt Duffy: “Someday”

Juan Lagares: “If Today Was Your Last Day”

Brandon Marsh: “When We Stand Together”

Jack Mayfield: “What Are You Waiting For?”

Kurt Suzuki: “This Afternoon”

Tyler Wade: “Animals”

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 08, 2022 at 11:52 PM | 117 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: angels, nickelback, stab me in the ears

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   1. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 09, 2022 at 12:27 AM (#6080796)
This isn't helping my depression even a little bit.
   2. Walt Davis Posted: June 09, 2022 at 01:06 AM (#6080804)
Red Sox 1, Angels 0 ... so apparently it nauseated the Boston hitters too.

EDIT: Is this the musical equivalent of Mark Grace's "slumpbuster" theory?
   3. Cooper Nielson Posted: June 09, 2022 at 04:25 AM (#6080809)
They deserve to lose another 13 straight games after this stunt.
   4. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 09, 2022 at 08:24 AM (#6080816)
They're reduced to straight up trolling BBTF at this point.
   5. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 09, 2022 at 08:46 AM (#6080819)
Angels' record against AL East teams: 5-14. Serves them right for starting their games at 10:00.
   6. John DiFool2 Posted: June 09, 2022 at 09:29 AM (#6080822)
Tyler Wade: “Animals”


They should do Floyd next.
   7. Nasty Nate Posted: June 09, 2022 at 10:01 AM (#6080824)
Tyler Wade: “Animals”

They should do Floyd next.
Maybe the Angels fired Maddon with a memo: ###### up old hag - Ha ha, charade you are
   8. JJ1986 Posted: June 09, 2022 at 11:47 AM (#6080830)
Because Candlebox didn't have enough hit songs?
   9. villageidiom Posted: June 09, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6080833)
You got to be crazy. Got to have a real need.
   10. pikepredator Posted: June 09, 2022 at 12:17 PM (#6080835)
This is awesome in a sick and twisted sort of way. I'm a Red Sox fan but I respect the Angels players for deciding "hey let's do something ridiculous to keep the mood light". I work in sales and it's easy to have fun when my team is all selling well. It's much more important to do goofy things during tough stretches.
   11. GGIAS (aka Poster Nutbag) Posted: June 09, 2022 at 12:47 PM (#6080839)
Now things are really what they seem. No, this is no bad dream.
   12. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: June 09, 2022 at 01:32 PM (#6080849)
I have a confession, I never totally got the hate for Nickelback. Was it just a backlash thing because they got popular? They're nothing special to be sure, but they are far from the worst thing in the Top 40.
   13. Booey Posted: June 09, 2022 at 01:43 PM (#6080852)
#12 - Yeah, same. Don't get me wrong, they're not GOOD by any means, but the seemingly universal agreement that they're basically the worst popular band of all time has always struck me as weird. Plus of course the fact that they ARE super successful but almost no one will admit to liking them can only mean one thing: a lot of the "haters" are lying...

Creed is the same way. Everyone agrees that they're terrible, but they were huge in the late 90's and early 2000's, so methinks a sizable number of people are succumbing to peer pressure and just pretending to follow the crowd consensus.
   14. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: June 09, 2022 at 01:49 PM (#6080853)
I don't know if Nickelback still gets any current airplay, but there is virtually no guitar-based music in the Top 40 anymore. And yes, I'm a dinosaur who still listens to terrestrial radio (occasionally).
   15. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 09, 2022 at 01:59 PM (#6080855)
I couldn't have named a single Nickelback song before today. I'm listening to Photograph and it seems like maybe I heard it before? Seems pretty forgettable.

I'm getting older every year (it's true!) but I despise nostalgia of every stripe. This song bleeds it.
   16. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: June 09, 2022 at 02:05 PM (#6080857)
13 - Creed is a good comp. Like Nickelback they seem to me to be an entirely forgettable band of the type. They aren't anywhere near worth the kind of vitriol they seem to get.
   17. villageidiom Posted: June 09, 2022 at 02:42 PM (#6080861)
Plus of course the fact that they ARE super successful but almost no one will admit to liking them can only mean one thing: a lot of the "haters" are lying...
They're all tight lips and cold feet.
   18. Booey Posted: June 09, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6080863)
#16 - Yep. There were a ton of these similarly generic, interchangeable post-grunge rock bands in the early 2000's, but only a couple of them seem to draw such intensely negative reactions at the mere mention of their name.
   19. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: June 09, 2022 at 03:14 PM (#6080865)
Nickelback's peak happened during the last few years where I was a demographic the pop music industry really gave a #### about, so here's my take:

- It seems like every generation needs a couple of pop music acts to really rally against in a way that becomes disproportionate to the actual music's quality. Often, this seems to correlate with that act really catching fire, which leaves a lot of people perplexed and, eventually, hostile.

- The front man for Nickelback just has a really polarizing look that, when paired with the music, made them a much easier target for scorn. Between the long dopey face and the stupid stringy hair, you kind of just wanted to not like the guy even before he started belting out those mediocre lyrics.
   20. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 09, 2022 at 03:31 PM (#6080866)
Turns out I do know Rockstar (slightly catchy but so stupid and mediocre) and How You Remind Me (which I always kind of liked). Don't think I know any others of theirs though.

I'm a bit surprised of all bands its nickelback that has become a meme. Indifference seems more appropriate.
   21. Lassus Posted: June 09, 2022 at 03:46 PM (#6080869)
I mean, this is funny.

I disagree with #3, I think they deserve to at least lose to the Mets in the World Series after this.
   22. Booey Posted: June 09, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6080870)
#20 - How You Remind Me is actually a decent song, and Someday is sort of okay too. Beyond that though, I'll pass (but I won't get angry if I happen to hear it playing somewhere. The people who act like it literally makes their ears bleed are being dramatic).
   23. Red Menace Posted: June 09, 2022 at 04:15 PM (#6080874)
As has been noted here musical tastes shifted and sincere, guitar-driven rock disappeared from the landscape. Nickelback was the last super big group of that type and has surfed a simultaneous wave of success and hatred. It would be like if a disco group launched in 1980 and continued to release albums and pack stadiums (or dancehalls, whatever) for a decade.
   24. . Posted: June 09, 2022 at 04:20 PM (#6080876)
I went back and listened to Rockstar early this morning and, no, it didn't make my ears bleed.

But it's a terrible, dreadful, awful song.

In terms of genre, I don't even really see Creed as a comp for it. Rockstar is more like worse Garth Brooks or something. It's got a goofball, twangy, neo-country vibe, and the irony-free ode to livin' large issuing from the voices and instruments of those cheeseballs is cranked-up-to-11 cringe-inducing.

Their late '10s comp is probably something like Imagine Dragons, who I'd classify as not really ... good ... but roughly eleventy billion times better than Nickelback.
   25. . Posted: June 09, 2022 at 04:39 PM (#6080880)
That look on the lead singer's face in the video when he sings "livin' with me must have damn near killed you" tho.
   26. Walt Davis Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:06 PM (#6080888)
I don't think I know a single Nickelback song -- I'd probably sorta recognize one just from supermarket, etc. play but I was successfully avoiding commercial radio and I think their peak popularity was around the time I moved out of the US and I don't know that they had such popularity here (although they are known and I do recall when a young colleague here expressed excitement that she was going to the Stones show because she wanted to see Nickelback who was opening).

Anyway, my impression of the criticism is that it was yet another example of corporate rock. Bands that are essentially marketing algorithms deserve to be ridiculed. "Authenticity" is a problematic concept and over-rated in its importance but that doesn't mean there's no such thing as fake and fake music is worse than "bad" music. (Bad fake music of course being the worst.)

But y'know, it's the 21st century and one moment you're quietly grocery shopping and the next moment you find yourself singing along publicly to Huey Lewis.
   27. villageidiom Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:14 PM (#6080891)
I'm a bit surprised of all bands its nickelback that has become a meme.
A target for faraway laughter.
   28. Zach Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:19 PM (#6080894)
Ok, here's my theory:

When I was in grad school, I rented a room in a house with several undergrads.

One of the undergrads -- a very nice gal -- knew that people liked Pulp Fiction, so one day she proudly brought back an edgy, cool movie of her own:

Boondock Saints.

Which is terrible in a forgettable way. But if you look at it as "I can't believe it's not Pulp Fiction!" it achieves a whole new plateau of awfulness.

Nickelback is "I can't believe it's not Soundgarden!".

   29. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:37 PM (#6080902)
I think it's mainly people who actively listen to rock music who disdain Nickelback, because there's approximately a million rock bands better than them. But if they're the only rock band you're hearing, they're not that bad, I guess.

The only worthwhile thing in Boondock Saints is Willem Dafoe's performance.
   30. Howie Menckel Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:45 PM (#6080905)
not sure I have ever heard a Nickelback song, but I thought the sentiment was that it was a harder-rock band that couldn't sell records so they were corporate-morphed into a pop band so they 'sold out.'

none of that may be true, but I think that's the meme. and when in doubt, print the legend.
   31. . Posted: June 09, 2022 at 06:46 PM (#6080906)
Look out world if the Angels all walk up to Pavement.
   32. Walt Davis Posted: June 09, 2022 at 07:11 PM (#6080912)
On the other hand, it's perfect timing for Mr Nickelback to release a solo acoustic effort recorded during lockdown, produced by (spins wheel) Conor Oberst, that's actually not half-bad and get some critical cred.

Otherwise he might have to wait until he dies to get the Mike Nesmith treatment.
   33. Tony S Posted: June 09, 2022 at 08:21 PM (#6080922)
Nickelback is the Grand Funk Railroad of its era. Wildly popular, wildly sneered at, in actuality just another ordinary, generic rock band with a few catchy tunes here and there.

They're the ultimate Texas-Roadhouse-waiting-room band.

There's worse.
   34. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 09, 2022 at 08:36 PM (#6080925)
As has been noted here musical tastes shifted and sincere, guitar-driven rock disappeared from the landscape.
I think this is a lot of it. Ultra-sincerity, if accompanied by an arena-rock sound rather than bedroom-indie, is a really tough sell with the cognoscenti these days. Even if you do it well, you’re still going to get mocked by a ton of detractors (see Springsteen, U2, Pearl Jam, etc.). If you do it badly, look out.
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: June 09, 2022 at 10:14 PM (#6080934)
rabbit hole warning for you audiophiles:

about 18 months ago, a new industry seems to have popped up on Youtube called "First Time Hearing"

(maybe it's older - I never watched much Youtube)

it tends to be young people - often black - who react to hit songs from the 1950s to the 1980s.

honestly, I never heard of "autotune" before, but many are struck in realizing that as they watch a live performance - yes that's the singer, or the band, for real.

they love Elvis, they REALLY love Tom Jones, plus Bob Seger, Johnny Cash, and so on.

now, the reactions are always positive, which can make a person wonder.

but the comments invariably are from Baby Boomers who are thrilled that young people like "their music" and are very respectful in their notes.

maybe the whole thing is a racket. but if you have a tough day, it's nice to end it by hearing an old recording that at least seems to intrigue young people.

and while I'm not a Ton Jones fan, I don't think those reactions by the ladies to "I'll Never Fall in Love Again" are faked.

same for The Righteous Brothers' "You've Lost That Loving Feeling."
   36. Walt Davis Posted: June 09, 2022 at 11:41 PM (#6080952)
Just a couple of months ago, a band called Shinedown reclaimed the record for most #1s on the "Billboard mainstream rock" chart with 17. They battle back and forth with Three Days Grace (who I think I might have heard of but am probably thinking of Three Doors Down or Third Eye Blind).

It seems that Nickelback in 2001 was the last band to have a #1 on both the "mainstream rock" and the hot 100 charts. "Rock" has about as much relevance in modern culture as baseball (same demographic too).
   37. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 10, 2022 at 02:12 AM (#6080960)
"Rock" has about as much relevance in modern culture as baseball (same demographic too).


Interestingly, the country where baseball is still the #1 team spectator sport is also the country where rock is still the dominant musical style. Patrick St. Michel, music writer for the Japan Times, among other publications, writing a few days ago...

"...rock never left Japan. People have hailed the rise of EDM and hip-hop to the mainstream over the last decade, but despite going through the cycle multiple times now, rock remains the core of Japanese popular music. That’s happened while large chunks of the rest of the world seemingly have shifted away from rock, at least from a very surface view of pop trends and charts (and, uhhh, Grammy nominees). But Japan, stubborn in its own beautiful way, clings to the style..."
   38. The Honorable Ardo Posted: June 10, 2022 at 03:39 AM (#6080961)
Did they try it again today, or revert to their usual walk-up music?

The streak is over, though "Shohei does the improbable... drives in 2 runs, allows 1 run in seven innings" isn't a sustainable winning strategy.
   39. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 08:29 AM (#6080969)
"Rock" in the traditional sense got carved up into niches -- alt-rock, grunge, college, Britpop emo, etc. -- decades ago. Nothing at all is "mainstream" anymore, but guitar-driven music that sounds an awful lot like it always has still very much exists.(*) Will it ever rule the music scene like it did in what is now probably best referred to as "arena rock" stage?(**) No, but nothing will.

(*) See, e.g., Japandroids. Two dudes, one on drums, one on vocals/guitar. Awesome band.

(**) And even at that, there's no question that things like disco at its ca. 1977-79 peak -- now seen as part of arena rock's heyday -- was as/more popular and more influential.
   40. villageidiom Posted: June 10, 2022 at 08:45 AM (#6080970)
Did they try it again today, or revert to their usual walk-up music?
Gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2022 at 09:35 AM (#6080978)
At the risk of triggering BTF’s anti-wokesters (Andy, Bear, the lesser cousin of Dan, Theo and Juan), I assumed one of the reasons for the contemporaneous downgrade of the Nickelback oeuvre was the awful misogyny.
   42. Tony S Posted: June 10, 2022 at 10:55 AM (#6080991)
I assumed one of the reasons for the contemporaneous downgrade of the Nickelback oeuvre was the awful misogyny


Well, perhaps, but in this they are not so unique. Misogyny is extremely common in rock (and hip-hop, and country).
   43. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 10, 2022 at 11:22 AM (#6080994)
about 18 months ago, a new industry seems to have popped up on Youtube called "First Time Hearing"
it is older, but yeah. also sort of a racket and sort of real. being positive gets you more clicks, plus some of the like is genuine. part of what's going on, i think, is also that culture is more segmented today and people know more about their subgenres and cubbyholes but less about the broader spectrum of possibilities. when you venture out and explore, you're bound to find some interesting stuff, even if it's not necessarily going to be a go-to for you moving forward. (just like how i think, say, dolly parton, is fairly incredible but i have zero desire to ever seek out her work.)
whatever. glad people like watching those videos and like putting 'em out. nothing wrong with people being positive about (most) stuff.
---
creed was f###### terrible.
---
sosh, as a wokester who's also a bit of a hipster (really, i'm more hipster adjacent), i don't know the lyric content of nickleback (have heard them many times, have listened zero. not a fan but also think it's a little weird that they're the band that got flagged as a joke). are you saying that they are particularly unique in their purported misogyny or just that it's part of that style of music? (hat tip to tony s)
---
unpopular opinion but: i enjoyed the boondock saints. yes, their fanbase has a bunch of lunatics in it and the director kind of sucks and i've got all sorts of issues with the film but - i dunno - i had a good time watching it. it sure is real dumb though.
   44. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 10, 2022 at 11:23 AM (#6080995)
not to minimize your point, tony but i'm going to offer an amendment:
Misogyny is extremely common in rock (and hip-hop, and country, and everything).
   45. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 10, 2022 at 11:37 AM (#6080996)
about 18 months ago, a new industry seems to have popped up on Youtube called "First Time Hearing"
The Angels should have made a video of Ohtani's first time hearing Nickelback. I would click.
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: June 10, 2022 at 11:40 AM (#6080998)
Their misogyny struck me as particularly odious, DK.
   47. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 10, 2022 at 11:42 AM (#6081000)
i'll trust you here, thanks
   48. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 01:21 PM (#6081014)
In four-plus decades of listening to music, you can count on one hand the number of times I've taken the lyrics literally. Nor, other than on very rare occasions, is there any indication that they're meant by the artist to be taken literally.(*) The idea that a song, therefore, could be "misogynist" doesn't even compute as a theoretical concept. You might as well call a song "snickerdoodle."

(*) In one of the worst songs ever published anytime, anywhere (**), Dan Fogelberg croons about his chance meeting with an old flame and he obviously is intending to tell an essentially true story. So, ok, take it literally. Whatever. He's very respectful of the woman, very earnest, very feminist, all the rest. The whole tone in the lyrics is one of equality and respectfulness and wistfulness and the singer seems like a really swell guy and I'm sure if Dan is still with us he's probably cruising art fairs sporting t-shirts with all manner of important and proper and caring slogans about the whales and the Earth and the children. But the song's dreadful. That's an aesthetic judgment; I of course have no issue with the underlying respectfulness, for example, I'm a massive fan of the Lemonheads' Into Your Arms."(***) Point being, if you're spending your time on a constant snipe hunt for "misogyny" and all the rest and the snipe hunt bleeds over into music, you're going about the whole thing entirely wrong.

(**) Auld Lang Syne.

(***) "I know a place where I can go // When I'm alone // Into Your Arms oh oh oh // Into your arms // I can go." Try the live version on YouTube from Letterman.
   49. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6081015)
As to Nickelback's reputation in the woke template and cosmos, the guy looks so ridiculously misplaced when he sings the lyrics, by which I mean little about his presence or face or anything comes close to equating to the persona he and his lyrics are trying to create, that paying any further deconstructive attention is almost impossible and a waste of time.

In "How You Remind Me" he's trying to come off as a guy who drives women to such intense emotion that, as he sings, "livin' with me must have damn near killed you." He's so milktoasty that it's pretty much impossible to see any woman actually thinking that. When I went back to the video yesterday and saw the face he made to accompany and try to punctuate the lyrics and the thought and self-impression behind them, and the persona he was trying to create, I literally laughed.
   50. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 10, 2022 at 02:03 PM (#6081019)
"...if Dan is still with us..."

He died from cancer in 2007.
   51. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 02:18 PM (#6081022)
Then a belated RIP to Dan and an apology to his spirit. We 12 and 13 year old late Xers weren't your target audience, but we didn't have iPhones or personal headphones and a lot of us didn't have very big bedrooms and the sound from our Boston albums carried in the house and drove everyone nuts and there weren't many TV channels or radio stations and our parents controlled the house stereo. I'm sure our parents and their friends made better use of your music (wink, wink) than we did. But you're still part of us. And I only laughed at Denis Leary's joke once. OK, maybe twice.
   52. Ron J Posted: June 10, 2022 at 02:36 PM (#6081024)
#43 I also enjoyed Boondock Saints. I don't claim it has any artistic merit. I just see it as the movie equivalent of one of Saint's Row 2 (or maybe 3). Weird but enjoyable.

I totally get not liking it though.
   53. Walt Davis Posted: June 10, 2022 at 05:40 PM (#6081051)
I assumed one of the reasons for the contemporaneous downgrade of the Nickelback oeuvre was the awful misogyny.

Probably not. They were already a joke by 2008 or so. Their last big-selling single in the US was 2005; their last million-selling album 2011. Those are too early for the Me Too movement ... alghough, fair enough, probably almost everybody's last million-selling album was 2011 given how these things are counted these days. They were still popular in Australia though with a gold single as late as 2012. (Thanks Wiki!)

Based on how folks talked about it, I had the impression they were pretty popular with women rock/pop fans. Is that not the case? One of the ways misogyny works in arts culture is that things liked by mainly women aren't taken seriously. That doesn't play out so cleanly in rock necessarily -- the Stones for example always had lots of female fans; I assume there are still women flashing their breasts at AC/DC -- but if you want rock cred, you certainly don't want to be seen as catering to female fans. That's all especially true if it's tweenage girls. Seems to me most of the "skater punk" bands have a similar rep as Nickelback. (I'm not sure who even qualified as skater punk, all well after my time.)

Re Japan -- probably also the #1 market for jazz, maybe one of the Euro countries is bigger. Japan loves, loves, loves Blue Note, even obscure titles are still reissued there.
   54. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 05:58 PM (#6081052)
NY Post, May 2021:

Nickelback fans have had it rough.

First, they’ve had to defend their favorite band from jokesters on the internet who’ve mercilessly mocked the group for years.

Now, they’re getting catfished.

Devotees of the Canadian rock group are being contacted by profiles pretending to be band members Chad Kroeger, Ryan Peake, Mike Kroeger and Daniel Adair. Some are looking for love; others money in the form of Bitcoin or iTunes gift cards. None of them are real, but committed supporters respond anyway, on the off chance their celebrity crush is on the other side of the screen.

It’s gotten so bad that in July, the band tweeted out a message to remind followers to keep their guard up. “Friendly reminder that the only official Nickelback Twitter account is right here, along with Mr. @TheDanielAdair,” they wrote. “Look for the blue checkmark to know it’s the real deal on all social networks. Report any accounts that are claiming otherwise.”

Friendly reminder that the only official Nickelback Twitter account is right here, along with Mr. @TheDanielAdair. Look for the blue checkmark to know it's the real deal on all social networks. Report any accounts that are claiming otherwise. We hope you all are safe and well!
— Nickelback (@Nickelback) July 29, 2020

Queens resident Nicole Godja has been contacted by several profiles pretending to be frontman Chad Kroeger since last year, on Instagram, Facebook and Google Hangouts. She follows the band on their verified Instagram account, and was part of a Facebook fan group, where several other members have been contacted by fake accounts.
   55. . Posted: June 10, 2022 at 06:06 PM (#6081054)
Nickelback raises the very real question of whether an act can be so bad that it would be existentially impossible for it to "sell out."
   56. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 10, 2022 at 07:47 PM (#6081077)
EDIT: Nevermind.
   57. Howie Menckel Posted: June 10, 2022 at 07:57 PM (#6081082)
Blue checkmarks! very amusing.

none of my many relatively new colleagues have the coveted mark, which I scored a decade ago. some have noticed.

like a lot of things in the world, nobody noticed it, seemingly, until Twitter apparently stopped giving them out. then suddenly it became a "thing" in insular circles.

I think they did a good job of not handing them out to scammers. but at this point, plenty of very credible people don't have them so it's not a - well, 'black mark' - against someone not to have it. that said, they'll tear my mark from my cold, dead fingers lol.

so with the mark, probably trustworthy.

without? hard to say, so dig around a bit.

feels like Nickelback might be digging its own unfashionable hole deeper by even referring to the marks - not exactly cutting-edge there, although the intent seems reasonable.

I'm already deemed unfashionable, so no such worries !
   58. Moeball Posted: June 11, 2022 at 03:24 AM (#6081232)
Talking about backlashes made me think of the HBO documentary on the Bee Gees. Barry Gibb was talking about how the band was performing to a sold out crowd of thousands, all dancing to the various hits from Saturday Night Fever, at the same time the Disco Sucks riot in Chicago was happening! He said when they heard about the riot later and how people were burning their albums, they knew their "jumping the shark" moment had come and things were about to go downhill in a hurry. Going from the most popular group with endless radio airplay to the most hated band that no one wanted to listen to happened almost overnight and it got ugly. Fortunately, decades later Barry can look back at that time and laugh, but he says it was pretty scary while it was actually happening. The level of hate was chilling.
   59. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2022 at 09:54 PM (#6081437)
I was curious about the timeline:

1977 Fonzie jumps the shark
1979 Disco demolition
1985 coining of "jump the shark" by some guy named Jon Hein
1997 Hein starts jumptheshark.com

Now ... some other things I've learned. (1) Winkler apparently was (is?) a very good water skier which is why it was put in. (2) I always thought it was a trip to Hawaii (another common sign the creative juices are gone) but it was just a trip to LA. (3) Happy Days didn't actually hit the top of the ratings until the 76-77 season (its 4th) and was #2 in the 77-78 season when Fonzie jumped the shark. So it wasn't a desperate attempt to rejump popularity but was at the peak of popularity and was still #4 the next season and was still getting ratings about as good as its early seasons through the 81-82 season. Possibly "jumping the shark" should be ... hmmm, I was gonns aay Chachi but he came on in 1977 too. Really the end came when Howard left the show which is more like "obvious problem" rather than jumping the shark.

Granted, I've never been clear whether JTS is the first sign of impending doom, the tipping point or the moment when all hope is lost.
   60. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2022 at 09:57 PM (#6081438)
Ron Howard (quoted in the Wiki entry for JTS):

"I remember Donny Most and I sitting there, looking at the script. Donny was really upset. He said, 'Oh man look at what our show has kind of devolved into. It's not even very funny, and you know Fonz is jumping over a shark' ... and I kept saying 'Hey Donny we're a hit show, relax. You know it's hard to have great episodes one after another. Fonzie jumping over a shark it's gonna be funny, and great ... I remember thinking that creatively this was not our greatest episode, but I thought it was a pretty good stunt, and I understood why they wanted to do it. And what I remember the most is, it was fun actually driving the speedboat which I did a bit of, noticing that Henry was really a pretty good water skier ... But the thing that has to be remembered about the jumping the shark idea, is that the show went on to be such a massive success for years after that. So, it's kind of a fun expression, and I get a kick out of the fact that they identified that episode (because granted maybe it was pushing things a little too far), but I think a lot of good work was still done after that show, and audiences seemed to really respond to it."
   61. Howie Menckel Posted: June 12, 2022 at 10:00 PM (#6081439)
I happened upon a piece of the Jump the Shark episode a couple of months ago (ironically) while channel-surfing.

it's more awful than anyone can possibly imagine, aided by the fact that not only was Winkler over 30 by then, but he looked it. why he would be hanging around with teenagers was.... weird.
   62. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2022 at 10:20 PM (#6081440)
Finally, one might also point to Disco Demolition Night as the moment when "classic rock radio" jumped the shark. It obviously hung on for a good bit (I assume it carries on to this day) and was quite popular among the white frat boys of my generation but talk about being on the downslope creatively. Whether "classic rock" itself was on the downslope I suppose depends on whether (a) you classify the Clash, the Police, U2, Van Halen, etc. and eventually Nirvana as "classic rock" and (b) what you think of the creativity of those bands.
   63. Walt Davis Posted: June 12, 2022 at 10:22 PM (#6081442)
double
   64. . Posted: June 13, 2022 at 09:13 AM (#6081473)
Finally, one might also point to Disco Demolition Night as the moment when "classic rock radio" jumped the shark. It obviously hung on for a good bit (I assume it carries on to this day) and was quite popular among the white frat boys of my generation but talk about being on the downslope creatively. Whether "classic rock" itself was on the downslope I suppose depends on whether (a) you classify the Clash, the Police, U2, Van Halen, etc. and eventually Nirvana as "classic rock" and (b) what you think of the creativity of those bands.


If you peruse the Billboard charts, they show a pretty amazing peak for disco, roughly a couple months before Disco Demolition Night -- and then it was basically over.(*) Fell off a cliff. DDN, unsurprisingly, was a paradigmatic lagging indicator.

Whether "classic rock" itself was on the downslope I suppose depends on whether (a) you classify the Clash, the Police, U2, Van Halen, etc. and eventually Nirvana as "classic rock" and (b) what you think of the creativity of those bands.


Not at all, not really, sorta, clearly, clearly. The only thing separating Nirvana from classic rock was the culture getting better at branding and classifying and a later generation, as youth tends to do, rejecting existing labels for their things.

(*) March 8, 1979: Do Ya Think I'm Sexy, Rod Stewart's foray, Number 1; I Will Survive, arguably the anthem of disco, 3; Tragedy, one of many Bee Gees forays, 4; Donna Summer's Heaven Knows, 6; Le Freak, canonical and pantheonic disco, 7; YMCA, nothing more need be said, 8.
   65. . Posted: June 13, 2022 at 09:14 AM (#6081474)
Make of it what you will, but every entertainment business extant would kill for Happy Days' post shark jump ratings and eyeballs. That's more a media structure thing than anything else, but still.
   66. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 13, 2022 at 12:01 PM (#6081480)
I remember thinking that the local classic rock station had jumped the shark when they started playing bands like Red Hot Chili Peppers. RHCP wasn't "Classic Rock", it was "Alternative". Classic Rock, of course, was the stuff from the 60s, 70s and early 80s that came out before I really started listening to music.

Eventually I realized that I was just getting older, and these labels were largely meaningless.
   67. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 13, 2022 at 01:37 PM (#6081492)
Eventually I realized that I was just getting older, and these labels were largely meaningless.
And to tie things together, the very first time you utter anything general along the lines of "god why does music these days suck so much?"...that's the day that your youth has jumped the shark.
   68. Tony S Posted: June 13, 2022 at 01:45 PM (#6081494)
"Classic Rock" eventually came to mean "seventies AOR", with fifteen or so "accepted" artists in heavy rotation. I'm actually surprised the format lasted as long as it did given the stultifyingly predictable playlists.
   69. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2022 at 02:06 PM (#6081500)

"Classic Rock" eventually came to mean "seventies AOR", with fifteen or so "accepted" artists in heavy rotation. I'm actually surprised the format lasted as long as it did given the stultifyingly predictable playlists.


I like to think of classic rock as music that's much, much older than what was played on the "oldies" station when I was a kid.

   70. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 13, 2022 at 02:22 PM (#6081506)
Getting back to baseball, after the all-Nickelback effort failed to get the Angels a win, an apparently increasingly desperate Joe Maddon got a Mohawk, hoping to change the Angels luck, but was fired before he could show it to the players. Alas, no pictures available (yet).

Maybe he can get a band gig.
   71. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: June 13, 2022 at 03:00 PM (#6081511)
OK, I give up, what's the difference between album rock and classic rock?
   72. Tony S Posted: June 13, 2022 at 03:21 PM (#6081512)
I like to think of classic rock as music that's much, much older than what was played on the "oldies" station when I was a kid.


So, Duke Ellington? :)

I know what you mean -- if you apply a textbook definition of "classic" you get Elvis and Little Richard and Buddy Holly and a bunch of other artists who were played on self-described "classic rock" stations about as often as the Rays sell out. But language evolves to fit reality -- "classic rock", for all intents and purposes, refers to a narrow slice of white boomer blues-based arena-rock, focused on the seventies, with a little spillover into the adjacent decades.

It's an academic debate anyway, since we're (thank goodness) no longer dependent on the radio to access any type of music we want.
   73. SoSH U at work Posted: June 13, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6081519)
classic rock", for all intents and purposes, refers to a narrow slice of white boomer blues-based arena-rock, focused on the seventies, with a little spillover into the adjacent decades.


I think there's still a fair bit of 60s stuff in the mix. But even if I grant your more limited definition, it's still older now than the "oldies" were then. Some of that 70s crap is 50 years old.
   74. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 13, 2022 at 04:05 PM (#6081521)
"classic rock", for all intents and purposes, refers to a narrow slice of white boomer blues-based arena-rock, focused on the seventies, with a little spillover into the adjacent decades.


What I noticed about "classic rock" when it first reared its ugly head in the late 80s/early 90s was that it very specifically referred to music made by people born in the 1940s. It was mostly late 1960s and 1970s music, but they would play more contemporary music if it was put out by an old-timer like John Fogerty or Robert Plant.
   75. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: June 13, 2022 at 04:15 PM (#6081525)
This entire discussion - "what is classic rock?" - forms the bulk of the book Twilight of the Gods.

This Atlantic article summarizes the thesis of that book well: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/05/was-classic-rock-a-sound-or-a-tribe/561188/

He [Hyden, the author] does toy with more formal definitions of classic rock, though. Early on, we’re reminded that the term derives from radio taxonomies, and that the divide that programmers made between “oldies” and “classic rock,” somewhat arbitrarily, drew a line in the mid-’60s. But he also suggests that intrinsic to classic rock is an emphasis on cohesive albums like The Dark Side of the Moon and Tommy. As a teen, what attracted him to classic rock was that it “felt like the opposite of pop music, which was proudly disposable and all about the here and now … whereas classic rock had roots that you could trace back as far as you cared to go.” The genre, he argues, began with Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band in 1967 and ended with Nine Inch Nails’s The Fragile in 1999.
   76. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: June 13, 2022 at 04:21 PM (#6081528)
What I noticed about "classic rock" when it first reared its ugly head in the late 80s/early 90s was that it very specifically referred to music made by people born in the 1940s.


1986 is considered the year classic rock really became mainstream and you are bang on with generation of featured artists at the time - - Eagles, Rolling Stones, Led Zep et al.
   77. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 13, 2022 at 04:53 PM (#6081534)
For some reason I think of Golden Earring's "Radar Love" as the quintessential classic rock radio song. They were always playing that song on the local station when I started driving.

The Four Seasons were the embodiment of an "oldies" band.
   78. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 13, 2022 at 04:58 PM (#6081536)
This reminds me of the blowback when Rolling Stone updated their Top 500 Songs list last year. The original 2004 list was dominated by classic rock with some Motown and punk sprinkled in. More than half the songs on the 2021 update weren't on the original -- a lot more rap and R&B, and of course some new songs from the 2000s and 2010s. Still plenty of Beatles and Stones and Dylan, but a lot of older readers were very, very mad about it.
   79. villageidiom Posted: June 13, 2022 at 06:31 PM (#6081546)
a lot of older readers were very, very mad about it
Get out of the road, if you want to grow old.
   80. Howie Menckel Posted: June 13, 2022 at 10:13 PM (#6081595)
that resistance by old people to a new generation taking over would be a good basis for a song.

something like:

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is worth savin'
You better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone


Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
   81. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 13, 2022 at 10:56 PM (#6081606)
a lot of older readers were very, very mad about it


Wow old people complaining about change, especially new-fangled tastes and ideas put out by younger people, colour me stunned! Water is still wet; news at a 11:00.
   82. Hombre Brotani Posted: June 13, 2022 at 11:44 PM (#6081633)
old people complaining about change, especially new-fangled tastes and ideas put out by younger people
The common thread that runs through everything in American culture these days.
   83. Baldrick Posted: June 14, 2022 at 06:19 AM (#6081642)
Music today rules. Nickelback is in fact dreadful. Boondock Saints isn't a 'good' movie but it's pretty fun, and is a perfectly lovely version of the thing it is. Classic rock is impossible to define exactly but I think most folks have a pretty clear understanding of what counts. It's the AOR style of rock that followed after (but generally does not include) the 1964-1966 transformation of rock and roll.

Stuff like Pearl Jam or RHCP or Weezer isn't 'classic rock' exactly, at least not yet. But as we get further and further away from that era, the period of 'classic rock' will continue to expand and eventually that 90s stuff will be fully enveloped.
   84. . Posted: June 14, 2022 at 07:34 AM (#6081644)
Or as Kiss put it:

Don't let them tell you that there's too much noise
They're too old to really understand
You'll still get rowdy with the girls and boys
Cause it's time for you to take a stand
Yeah, yeah




   85. Tony S Posted: June 14, 2022 at 09:14 AM (#6081646)
The common thread that runs through everything in American culture these days.


I don't know if you need the "these days" qualifier, but boomers gotta boom.
   86. Der-K's tired of these fruits from poisoned trees Posted: June 14, 2022 at 09:28 AM (#6081647)
83/baldrick: pretty much
on music - i'm not anti- the music of today, but i do feel like we're at a point between interesting developments. stance is likely based on my ignorance.

separately, i feel like my appetite for new music was kinda voracious and then hit a wall, like my brain was full - sometime around 10 years ago (when i was in my last 30s). i still check out new stuff and whatnot, but it's totally not the same. (not that this is an unusual response to aging + it is decidedly unrelated to changes in music quality.)

on culture and the old days, this bit from dana gould more or less sums up where i stand:
"I don’t b#### about Millenials. John Entwistle once complained that he didn’t understand rap. Pete Townsend said, “It’s not our job to understand it. It’s our job to get the f### out of the way.”
New generations come of age. The older generation’s job is to shut up and adapt."
   87. Tony S Posted: June 14, 2022 at 09:33 AM (#6081649)
John Entwistle once complained that he didn’t understand rap.


I'm always amused by rap-haters who worship at the altar of "Subterranean Homesick Blues".
   88. . Posted: June 14, 2022 at 09:44 AM (#6081651)
New generations come of age. The older generation’s job is to shut up and adapt."


That bromide has more application in the realm of artistic culture, and I'd call it generally accurate there. It's essentially irrelevant if a guy in his late 60s "understands" new art forms or the art forms of the young generally.

That said, to take a simple example, it was very much not the "job" of someone who came of age in Weimar Germany to "shut up and adapt" to Nazism.
   89. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 14, 2022 at 10:06 AM (#6081654)
The term Classic Rock seems to be morphing to mean Guitar Rock. Classic Rock on reddit now includes ACDC, Guns and Roses, Dire Straits, Tom Petty, and even Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Alice in Chains. I suppose eventually it will include Nickeback/Blink 182/Matchbox 20/etc.

The Rock and Rock Hall of Fame long ago became the Pop Music HOF.

   90. villageidiom Posted: June 14, 2022 at 10:40 AM (#6081659)
The Rock and Rock Hall of Fame long ago became the Pop Music HOF.
Is this not what you expected to see?
   91. Nasty Nate Posted: June 14, 2022 at 10:50 AM (#6081662)
The term Classic Rock seems to be morphing to mean Guitar Rock. Classic Rock on reddit now includes ACDC, Guns and Roses, Dire Straits, Tom Petty, and even Nirvana/Pearl Jam/Alice in Chains. I suppose eventually it will include Nickeback/Blink 182/Matchbox 20/etc.
I don't know about reddit, but yes the Classic Rock radio stations absorbed a lot of hard rock and metal years ago, and then those 90's bands more recently. Their playlists would be more interesting if they further absorbed things like guitar-driven funk, early 60's rock, a limited amount of jam band stuff, etc.
   92. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2022 at 11:12 AM (#6081665)
Their playlists would be more interesting if they further absorbed things like guitar-driven funk, early 60's rock, a limited amount of jam band stuff, etc.


Also, if they played more than three songs from the typical classic rock outfit.
   93. Nasty Nate Posted: June 14, 2022 at 11:17 AM (#6081667)
Also, if they played more than three songs from the typical classic rock outfit.
Yeah. They are decent about that for a very select group of artists. But I don't know why they don't do it more. Their audience would love more deep cuts, live versions etc., mixed in with the hits.
   94. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: June 14, 2022 at 02:19 PM (#6081694)
I'm hoping this thread somehow converges to Suzi Quatro, but it's taking it's time to get there.
   95. villageidiom Posted: June 14, 2022 at 02:46 PM (#6081707)
I'm hoping this thread somehow converges to Suzi Quatro, but it's taking it's time to get there.
If you don't mind I'll spend my time here by the fireside in the warm light and the love in her eyes.
   96. . Posted: June 14, 2022 at 02:50 PM (#6081708)
I imagine that eventually we'll stumble into it.
   97. villageidiom Posted: June 14, 2022 at 03:58 PM (#6081727)
I imagine that eventually we'll stumble into it.
You dreamed of a big star.
   98. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: June 14, 2022 at 05:49 PM (#6081749)
I want to +1 the "music today is great". I don't know about the radio or what they sell at target, but whatever you like, someone somewhere is making it, and experimenting with it, and doing awesome creative stuff with it. And it's all cheap and easy to find.
   99. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 14, 2022 at 06:35 PM (#6081756)
How is that possible?! I have it on good authority from the retroactively classic rock group Metallica that artists won't make music if they don't get paid. Can you imagine how sad the world would be without music? We need to ban the internet yesterday.
   100. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 14, 2022 at 06:54 PM (#6081764)
I don't know about reddit, but yes the Classic Rock radio stations absorbed a lot of hard rock and metal years ago, and then those 90's bands more recently. Their playlists would be more interesting if they further absorbed things like guitar-driven funk, early 60's rock, a limited amount of jam band stuff, etc.
We can hold out hope that someday Classic Rock will consist of nothing but Pavement.
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