Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, July 21, 2006

AP: Blue Jays manager challenged Hillenbrand to a fight before he was cut

This new wrinkle in the story deserves its own thread, I think.

After Shea Hillenbrand wrote on the clubhouse bulletin board that the “ship was sinking,” Toronto Blue Jays manager John Gibbons challenged him to a fight.

There was no brawl, but the tense relationship between the two reached the breaking point during a team meeting Wednesday night. Gibbons was adamant that he would’ve quit if Hillenbrand wasn’t cut.

“That’s a fact. That’s how the whole thing got started,” Gibbons said before Thursday night’s game against the Yankees. “I told him he won’t see the field as long as I’m here.”
...
Gibbons acknowledged he challenged Hillenbrand to a fight. “He had a chance yesterday to defend himself in front of his coaches and his teammates. He chose not to,” Gibbons said.

Toronto Star: Hillenbrand soap opera is now Jays of our lives

NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 12:53 AM | 146 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blue jays

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2
   101. Swedish Chef Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:09 AM (#2106271)
"We're not going to allow someone to do something that is detrimental to not only our organization but the country of Canada and a Canadian ownership group that is paying a player a very good salary and I'm going to leave that at that."

Gee, thanks that you left it at that, how courteous.

"He's also a child molester and a member of the Klan, and I'm going to leave it at that."
   102. NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:15 AM (#2106274)
Anyone notice the lack of player support for Hillenbrand?

And risk having Gibbons put a full-nelson on you when you have your back turned?
   103. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:16 AM (#2106275)
#20 "But challenging him to a fight? If it's true, you just have to fire him--talk about a hostile workplace."

Agreed, you can't have a manager challenging a player to a fight. It undercuts his professionalism.

#36 "It could well be that Gibbons had absolutely no choice but to call out Hillenbrand or totally lose the respect of the team."

What if Shea took up Gibbons's challenge and beats Gibbons silly. Maybe the challenge itself would prevent the loss of respect irrespective of the outcome. But I'm guessing a beat down from Shea would harm Gibbon's respect. In the case of a beat down, Gibbons issued a challenged and had a player shut him up with a fist down his throat. I agree that Gibbons needed to take action to keep the team's respect but the verbal reprimand should have been enough.
   104. Flynn Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:35 AM (#2106280)
This is truly one of those situations where everybody looks bad.

Hillebrand is an #######, Gibbons is an #######, and Ricciardi seems asleep at the wheel.
   105. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:09 AM (#2106291)
Agree with 104. I've worked in places just like this. Sometimes it is easier to just start over.
   106. NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:09 AM (#2106292)
LA Times: Stoneman Appears to Have Hillenbrand on His Radar (RR)

The Angels are interested enough in Shea Hillenbrand that General Manager Bill Stoneman spent a fair amount of Thursday investigating the circumstances surrounding the Toronto infielder's falling out with the Blue Jays, which led to the team's designating Hillenbrand for assignment Wednesday.

"I'm fully aware of what happened," Stoneman said.
...
In earlier talks, the Blue Jays asked for second baseman Adam Kennedy, but because Hillenbrand was designated for assignment, giving Toronto 10 days to either trade or release him, Hillenbrand could probably be acquired for a mid-level prospect.

Competition for the right-handed hitter could drive up the price, though. At least seven teams — the Angels, Dodgers, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Twins, San Francisco Giants, Philadelphia Phillies and San Diego Padres — expressed interest in Hillenbrand Thursday.

"We've had a lot of interest," said Toronto General Manager J.P. Ricciardi, who is looking for starting pitching. "Some I've liked, some I haven't liked. We'd like to get a guy who could help us in 2006 or 2007, but that doesn't have to be the case."

We'll soon see if J.P. is bluffing, and how much cash (if any) he ends up swallowing...
   107. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:40 AM (#2106298)
It'd be sort of fun to see Kyle Lohse try to pitch in Toronto.
   108. NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 08:58 AM (#2106314)
The most front-office-friendly outlet, the Globe and Mail, has posted their latest take, although it sidesteps the fight issue, neither really confirming nor denying:

Gibbons was angry and challenged Hillenbrand. "He had his chance...[same quote you've read elsewhere]"
...
During [his Jays tenure], sources say, Hillenbrand had become a negative force -- a lot of the time just little stuff that had a cumulative effect -- in the clubhouse. There was concern that he was having an influence on some of the younger players.

"Every time we'd get on the way to doing something, certain guys just wouldn't allow that to happen and he was the leader," a source said. "It got old."
...
"Gibby has a couple of buttons you can push," one source said. "Shea pushed both of them."


Perhaps 'A source' and the snitch are the same person? :P
   109. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:06 AM (#2106316)
Is there any way we can lock Gibbons and Ozzie Guillen in a room together?

***

But they couldn't even get replacement-level(and third-best 2B available on his own team/AAA team) Adam Kennedy and his contract for Hillenbrand to begin with, so....

Adam Kennedy? Replacement level? Give me a break. The guy's been a Gold-Glover and an above-average hitter for four straight years, all of a sudden he's replacement level because of a few bad months? And Legs Figgins can't even carry Kennedy's glove around the bag, btw. And, honestly, though Howie Kendrick projects better over the next decade (duh) I'm not convinced he projects better for the rest of this season (though I'd lean toward saying he does); I suspect the odds are pretty good Kennedy will revert to an EqA in the .260 range the rest of the year, and I don't know that Kendrick is much better than that right now, and it's questionable that his defense is as good as Kennedy's (though Adam has decline a bit in that regard).
   110. NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:13 AM (#2106318)
Latest from the Toronto Star:
(The Star also has the Angels and Phillies as the teams showing the most interest in Hillenbrand.)
Hillenbrand also added that he wasn't the only one writing things on the board and that Zaun had scrawled the "paycheck" message. He said he only accepted responsibility when Gibbons asked the room about the messages because he had written the first part.

"It was a joke, but he didn't want to hear it," said Hillenbrand... "I didn't write what they're saying I wrote," he added. "What I wrote down was what I told you. There were other players involved and they were all writing things down and erasing them. It was meant to be funny."

Zaun avoided the media fray on the first night, but decided to tell his side yesterday when the Star asked about Hillenbrand's claim he'd written the "paycheck" message.

"Yeah, I wrote that down as a response to what he wrote," Zaun said. "I wasn't going to say anything until he brought my name up.

"(Gibbons) knows that I wrote the second part down because I went into his office after (the meeting) and told him it was me and why I did it."

Hillenbrand also suggested that Zaun may have been the anonymous player who called him "a cancer'' in a Toronto newspaper yesterday. No other players the Star spoke to yesterday — on or off the record — would go that far and a furious Zaun denied he had given the anonymous account.

To recap:
"play for yourselves" = Hillenbrand
"play for a paycheck" = Zaun
"sinking ship" = ??? (Chris Truby! It was probably him! Check his alibi!)

   111. NTNgod Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:17 AM (#2106319)
From an un-bylined column in the Star, but it reads like a Griffin piece:

"This is a sinking ship" — hell, the Star writes that almost every week and we still are allowed in the clubhouse.
   112. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: July 21, 2006 at 11:00 AM (#2106323)
BTF is a sinking ship. Post for your own paycheck.
   113. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 21, 2006 at 11:18 AM (#2106324)
Alright, Bottenfield, let's go. Step outside, #####.
   114. Daryn Posted: July 21, 2006 at 11:19 AM (#2106325)
"Gibby has a couple of buttons you can push," one source said. "Shea pushed both of them."

This was columnist Jeff Blair. I heard him say it myself and he wasn't quoting anyone.
   115. bunyon Posted: July 21, 2006 at 12:11 PM (#2106339)
I know it isn't truly to theme, but when I think of coaches and players, I think Pedro and Zimmer.

And, thanks for the memories, Harvey. I watched Reggie and Billy go at it on a lazy Saturday afternoon with my Mom. I was six. I think Dad was mowing.
   116. Jeff K. Posted: July 21, 2006 at 12:16 PM (#2106342)
"Gibby has a couple of buttons you can push," one source said. "Shea pushed both of them."

Was one of his parents on the Titanic or something (and Shea knew that)?

Because that's the only excuse I can see for losing your mind enough to challenge Hillenbrand to a fight, if he indeed did that.
   117. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 12:44 PM (#2106352)
What if Shea took up Gibbons's challenge and beats Gibbons silly. Maybe the challenge itself would prevent the loss of respect irrespective of the outcome. But I'm guessing a beat down from Shea would harm Gibbon's respect. In the case of a beat down, Gibbons issued a challenged and had a player shut him up with a fist down his throat.

What Gibbons does nothing and definitely, not maybe, definitely looks like an utter [kittycat]? (Gibbons was a catcher; Michael Barrett's girly punch notwithstanding, I wouldn't want to fight a catcher.)

It's so easy to sit back and call him a tool etc., but none of us knows what led up to Gibbons blowing his top. Any of us could construct a scenario where a reasonable person would consider what Hillenbrand did a last straw. And any of us could construct a scenario where a childish idiot drives one over the edge.
   118. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 21, 2006 at 12:56 PM (#2106360)
Doc:

You have a point about catchers. Historically, they have been a pretty tough group.

But I think the "champ" has to be Charles "Boss" Schmidt of the Tigers in the first decade of the 20th century. Among his pasttimes was pounding nails into the wall of the dugout--with his FIST.

He also endeared himself to the Tiger squad by beating the living sh*t out of Ty Cobb on the last day of the 1906 season. Local observers at the time insisted that was a catalyst for the Tigers run of 3 straight pennants. Guys knew that Schmidt would keep Cobb in line. Or at least from Ty beating the cr*p out of THEM.
   119. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:01 PM (#2106364)
Gibbons looks like he can handle himself. Hillenbrand's only chance would be taking him into the later rounds.
   120. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:22 PM (#2106376)
So say the Jays can't find a trade for Hillenbrand that they want to make, and want to send him to the minors. Shea would not accept that--then what happens?
   121. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:23 PM (#2106377)
But I think the "champ" has to be Charles "Boss" Schmidt of the Tigers in the first decade of the 20th century. Among his pasttimes was pounding nails into the wall of the dugout--with his FIST.

That's good, never heard that one.

Oil Smith came in for some major toughness props in the NHBA.
   122. Boileryard Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:24 PM (#2106378)
Considering that Hillenbrand was only hitting .244 this month, if he had taken a swing at Gibbons he'd have probably missed.
   123. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#2106379)
So say the Jays can't find a trade for Hillenbrand that they want to make, and want to send him to the minors. Shea would not accept that--then what happens?

Two men enter; one man leaves.
   124. JC in DC Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:33 PM (#2106385)
So say the Jays can't find a trade for Hillenbrand that they want to make, and want to send him to the minors. Shea would not accept that--then what happens?

Two men enter; one man leaves.


God I hated that movie. That's one of those sequels (like G'father III) you just wish they'd treat like it never existed and reshoot entirely w/new script and new actors.
   125. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:36 PM (#2106390)
(The Star also has the Angels and Phillies as the teams showing the most interest in Hillenbrand.)

Oh god no. Not only is Hillenbrand not any better than David Bell, I don't think he'll help much with the whole "this ship is sinking, play for your salary" attitude that ex-Phillies players have been complaining about lately.
   126. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:40 PM (#2106394)
God I hated that movie. That's one of those sequels (like G'father III) you just wish they'd treat like it never existed and reshoot entirely w/new script and new actors.

Excellent movie for about, what, 45 minutes? Then ick. Gibson's first shot at meaningfulness, led to some better efforts.
   127. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:43 PM (#2106395)
Did we ever have a thread on this?


Tsuyoshi Shinjo's grand entrance: Shinjo enjoyed a respectable rookie season for the Mets in 2001 but followed it up with two forgettable years for the Giants and Mets. After that, I assumed he'd just fallen off the face of the Earth. But, oh boy, was I wrong. The flamboyant Shinjo -- who announced in April that he would retire after the season to possibly become a nude model -- recently made the most ridiculous baseball entrance ever. Abner Doubleday had to be doing barrel rolls in his grave.
   128. Sam M. Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:58 PM (#2106408)
So say the Jays can't find a trade for Hillenbrand that they want to make, and want to send him to the minors. Shea would not accept that--then what happens?

Since they designated him for assignment, and I believe he can reject an assignment to the minors, he would become a free agent. (If he can't reject the assignment to the minors, then they could suspend him, or try to, and the union would fight it, claiming that Gibbons's conduct violated all sorts of provisions of the CBA, the Geneva Conventions, and the UN Charter. Hillenbrand would then be sent to Guantanamo to await the outcome of the arbitration.)
   129. BTF's left-wing cheering section (formerly_dp) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 02:15 PM (#2106418)
He'd void the rest of his salary though, yes? And would have to pass through waivers. So from the Jays perspective, this may be the best thing. Still, when you look at his numbers, it seems odd they couldn't get anything for him before this blowup.

I've called it before and I'll call it again- the World Series is gonna be Jays vs. Mets. This has gotta be the year.
   130. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 21, 2006 at 02:26 PM (#2106427)
Not to say that Gibbons was justified in challenging Hillenbrand to a fight, but I've always been annoyed by people who say stupid, unfunny things and then get all defensively "what? it was a joke so you can't get angry at me." A guy I used to work with did that constantly and I certainly thought about pummeling him. Unfortunately here on planet earth challenging your coworkers to a fight is a bad idea.
   131. Gamingboy Posted: July 21, 2006 at 02:31 PM (#2106434)
I say Gibbons and Hillenbrand should fight anyway. Nevermind that Shea is about to be released or traded. I want them fighting.

Fighting I tell you! And not some wimpy barroom brawl in a undisclosed location, I want them fighting with Baseball bats and catchers gear, TO THE DEATH. On TOP OF THE <strike>SKYDOME</strike> ROGERS CENTRE. And the roof would have OPEN AND CLOSE DURING THE BATTLE, so they'd have a moving battlefield.

That'd be so freaking awesome, if only it had happened.
   132. Chris Dial Posted: July 21, 2006 at 02:43 PM (#2106453)
91. Backlasher Posted: July 21, 2006 at 01:08 AM (#2106230)

So let me see if I have this right. Gibbons challenged Hillenbrand to a fight because he wrote something on a message board as a joke, as part of something going on with a group of other players?


Heavens to Betsy, I can't imagine anyone getting mad over a joke post on a message board.


Excellent....
   133. winnipegwhip Posted: July 21, 2006 at 05:17 PM (#2106610)
Obviously the Jays need a new manager....uhmm..somebody with leadership skills...perhaps someone who has lead troops in combat in Vietnam.
   134. vortex of dissipation Posted: July 21, 2006 at 05:56 PM (#2106638)
127. Quilvio Anti-retro Veras aka Chris Sabo-metrics Posted: July 21, 2006 at 09:43 AM (#2106395)

Did we ever have a thread on this?


Yes:

mainichi_daily_news_shinjos_clown_act_attracts_record_crowd_to_sapporo_dome/
   135. Craig in MN Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:04 PM (#2106645)
He'd void the rest of his salary though, yes? And would have to pass through waivers. So from the Jays perspective, this may be the best thing. Still, when you look at his numbers, it seems odd they couldn't get anything for him before this blowup.

No, the Blue Jays have to pay him his full salary, even if he rejects his assignment. Otherwise any team that has an bloated contract could just demote that player and hope they they don't want to spend time riding buses in the minors.
   136. birdlives is one crazy ninja Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:06 PM (#2106647)
What Gibbons does nothing and definitely, not maybe, definitely looks like an utter [kittycat]? (Gibbons was a catcher; Michael Barrett's girly punch notwithstanding, I wouldn't want to fight a catcher.)

But Gibbons didn't do nothing (I'm assuming you forgot an if after what). He verbally reprimanded Shea, in front of the whole team no less. The interesting thing is that now I'm reading Shea is not only one involved. Why didn't Gibbons reprimand them as well?

It's so easy to sit back and call him a tool etc., but none of us knows what led up to Gibbons blowing his top. Any of us could construct a scenario where a reasonable person would consider what Hillenbrand did a last straw. And any of us could construct a scenario where a childish idiot drives one over the edge.

A "don't judge until you've walked in that person's shoe" point... I don't know, it's a reasonable point. Unless Shea made a personal comment about Gibbon's family or a couple other sacred areas (now or in the past), I don't think your point stands. There a few sacred areas you don't touch (e.g. family, personal illnesses, personal trajedies) and unless Shea touched one them, Gibbons' professionalism take a hit in this incident.
   137. The Buddy Biancalana Hit Counter Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:09 PM (#2106654)
If Hillenbrand called Zidane's mother a terrorist whore, Gibbons was on the side of the angels.
   138. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:14 PM (#2106659)
Gibbons' professionalism take a hit in this incident.

Agreed...a better man/manager could've done it differently. Maybe. It's a difficult tightrope you walk, managing a baseball team. If you slip once in a while, I'd expect that too.

If I were in Ricciardi's shoes, I would probably have tried to make Gibbons and Hillenbrand make nice after Gibbons cooled down. Gibbons works for me, not Gibbons.
   139. MM1f Posted: July 21, 2006 at 06:41 PM (#2106693)
"But I think the "champ" has to be Charles "Boss" Schmidt of the Tigers in the first decade of the 20th century. Among his pasttimes was pounding nails into the wall of the dugout--with his FIST.

That's good, never heard that one.

Oil Smith came in for some major toughness props in the NHBA."


Both of them from Arkansas...hm. One of them from a town called Coal Hill, AR which just sounds like the home of someone that could hammer nails with his fist
   140. Who Swished In Your Cornflakes? Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:19 PM (#2106732)
I'm from Arkansas. I like to think I'm not the type of idiotic neanderthal you seem to think Arkansans are, MM1f. Don't drag that crap in here.
   141. baudib Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:34 PM (#2106752)
Obviously Gibbons did the right thing, although perhaps he should have done it earlier.

And Hillenbrand is wrong, the ship was sunk somewhere around the time Josh Towers was permitted to get more than 6 decisions.

He'll get a job somewhere and I'm sure he'll be well-behaved for a few months.
   142. Johnny Tuttle Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:35 PM (#2106754)
Have you ever dealt with a jerk? For a true jerk, it doesn't matter what you do about the situation. He's still going to be a jerk.

Besides, we don't know what the Jays have tried to do over the last two months to deal with the situation. We only know what they've done now, which is DFA him. As far as we know, they've tried jerk therapy, kitten-snuggling, clubbing him over the head with bats, or any of a hundred other things to try and deal with him.

As a side note, on a purely coincidental basis, I seem to remember that the trade rumors surrounding Hillenbrand first started about two months ago, so it's entirely possible that they were trying to do something about the situation. It could just be that no other team really felt like helping them out.


I just got criticized for dropping Gomes in my fantasy league, but of course, I've tried to trade him dozens of times since the end of May. The other guy didn't know that.

If he couldn't fetch Kennedy....
   143. The Balls of Summer Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:41 PM (#2106758)
Was one of his parents on the Titanic or something (and Shea knew that)?

Because that's the only excuse I can see for losing your mind enough to challenge Hillenbrand to a fight, if he indeed did that.


Apparently, Gibby's sister and mother are both sluts.
   144. MM1f Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:43 PM (#2106759)
"I'm from Arkansas. I like to think I'm not the type of idiotic neanderthal you seem to think Arkansans are, MM1f. Don't drag that crap in here."

Hey man, i'm from the south too. I certainly wasn't making any blanket statements about Arkansas and i object to the general "ha southerners are stupid rednecks" stuff too. I wasn't trying to say that...just noting a coincidence.

Plus, hammering nails into a wall with your fist is something to be proud of.

As for Coal Hill, regardless of the state and of what kind of town it actually is it does evoke a certain image. An image which i actually respect.
   145. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: July 21, 2006 at 07:50 PM (#2106763)
How many Yankee-crunching Blue Jays have now been DFA'd that year? Huckabee put Jeter out for a few months and got whacked that year, and Hillenbrand put Sheffield on the DL earlier this year and also got it.

Conspiracy!
   146. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: July 21, 2006 at 08:15 PM (#2106784)
Was one of his parents on the Titanic or something (and Shea knew that)?

Shea could have said "Too soon?"
Page 2 of 2 pages  < 1 2

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Sheer Tim Foli
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogWhat Does Endeavor, Silver Lake’s Push Into Baseball Mean For the Minors?
(14 - 9:59am, Dec 07)
Last: Cris E

Sox TherapyLocked Out and Semi-Loaded
(19 - 9:41am, Dec 07)
Last: Nasty Nate

NewsblogMinnie, Gil, Buck among 6 elected to Hall
(90 - 9:33am, Dec 07)
Last: dark

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - Domestic Cups, Congested Fixture Lists and Winter Breaks
(47 - 9:04am, Dec 07)
Last: jmurph

NewsblogMajor League Baseball is headed for a lockout. Is Ted Cruz the only one who can stop it?
(8 - 7:28am, Dec 07)
Last: sotapop

NewsblogRed Sox, Astros Interested In Trevor Story
(3 - 6:08am, Dec 07)
Last: Walt Davis

Hall of MeritJoe DiMaggio
(39 - 2:15am, Dec 07)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogA’s reportedly eyeing Tropicana site for possible Strip ballpark
(29 - 12:48am, Dec 07)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogOT - College Football Bowl Spectacular (December 2021 - January 2022)
(30 - 12:33am, Dec 07)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogHere is Mets' preliminary list of managerial candidates
(12 - 12:01am, Dec 07)
Last: The Honorable Ardo

NewsblogNBA 2021-2022 Season Thread
(1281 - 10:20pm, Dec 06)
Last: spivey 2

NewsblogMcCaffery: Jimmy Rollins, Ryan Howard passed Hall of Fame eye test
(104 - 9:26pm, Dec 06)
Last: LargeBill

NewsblogOT - NHL Thread
(36 - 8:00pm, Dec 06)
Last: Jose Has Absurd Goosebump Arms

NewsblogBaseball Hall of Fame ballot 2022: Alex Rodriguez, David Ortiz join; Bonds, Clemens, Schilling in final year
(98 - 6:21pm, Dec 06)
Last: dark

NewsblogMLB, union stopped blood testing for HGH due to pandemic
(37 - 1:45pm, Dec 06)
Last: Ben Broussard Ramjet

Page rendered in 0.3182 seconds
48 querie(s) executed