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Friday, August 07, 2020

A’s bench coach sorry for ‘unintentionally’ making apparent Nazi salute

Oakland Athletics bench coach Ryan Christenson apologized Thursday for “unintentionally” making a gesture resembling a Nazi salute following the A’s win over the Texas Rangers.

Christenson was seen on camera extending his right arm in the air as the team was making its way off the field, engaging in an elbow bump celebration with coaches.

Closer Liam Hendriks could be seen correcting Christenson’s gesture so it fit what the rest of the team was doing. Christenson then turned around and repeated the gesture.

“No, no straight arm, you have to bend your elbow,” Christenson said Hendriks told him, according to the San Francisco Chronicle. “Oh, I see what you mean, oh no, it’s like ‘Heil Hitler.’

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 09:33 AM | 119 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ryan christenson

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   1. Itchy Row Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:21 AM (#5968256)
The elbow bump was good in the beginning but went too far.
   2. I Am Not a Number Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:25 AM (#5968259)
So all good then? No need to cancel Ryan Christenson? The internet army is standing by, awaiting instructions.
   3. KronicFatigue Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:27 AM (#5968260)
The first salute looks like it's from a lack of awareness. I mean, I suppose there are people out there who wouldn't immediately realize that was a nazi salute, so I'll give him a pass. But the 2nd one looks like he found humor in his mistake. Looks like he was laughing about his mistake, while re-doing the salute. If I accidentally did something that could be offensive, I'd feel bad, not laugh about it. Heck, even from a selfish aspect, he should be concerned about making news and having to make an apology. But nope, it's "LOL, Nazis!"

I'm not offended or outraged. Just a headscratcher all around.
   4. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:28 AM (#5968261)
If Christenson were a Nazi, it would be really weird to announce it to the world in an empty stadium after a win over a 3-7 team. So he's probably just an idiot.
   5. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:30 AM (#5968262)
I think reading it in the most favorable light to him, he did it to be funny and provocative, Hendriks admonished himfor it, and he did it again as a nervous laughing reaction knowing he had messed up. Probably still warrants some sort of suspension.
   6. flournoy Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:56 AM (#5968270)
Yes, here we find ourselves where reading an absolute non-incident in the "most favorable light" warrants a suspension.
   7. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: August 07, 2020 at 11:01 AM (#5968271)
I don't think there is anything in that. Without knowing anything about Christenson it looked like the first time was just a brain fart and the second one was one of those "did I really just do this what the #### is wrong with me" situation.

Absent further information I'm willing to chalk this up as an unfortunate error. If I were Christenson I'd take a proactive step of making a donation in the amount of a game check to the ADL or some similar organization. Just a small thing but a tangible "yup, I understand I shouldn't have done this."
   8. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 12:17 PM (#5968280)
Yes, here we find ourselves where reading an absolute non-incident in the "most favorable light" warrants a suspension.
this is absolutely correct; actions have no consequences, and all that matters is what you're willing to admit is in your nazi saluting heart.
   9. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 12:34 PM (#5968285)
Double nothingburger with a side of nothingfries.
   10. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 07, 2020 at 12:54 PM (#5968289)
I am willing to wait for an unreasonable punishment before jumping on my soap box about how unreasonable we are as a society.

That saisd I have no idea what he was thinking, think it was dumb, but also what #9 said.
   11. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: August 07, 2020 at 01:30 PM (#5968295)
I’m waiting for encoded instructions from Soros on the dark web before I know how to react.

“I had a brain fart, I’m sorry” works for me.
   12. JRVJ Posted: August 07, 2020 at 01:41 PM (#5968297)
After watching the video, I'm not clear if Christenson is a dumb a*s or if he actually has some fascist proclivities. I would need to know more about thim to put this in contexts.
   13. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:03 PM (#5968302)
So no one has any evidence that this was anything other than someone somewhat clueless about how to line up for an elbow bump? But some wish to punish him anyhow? You’re the problem.
   14. Cris E Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:07 PM (#5968304)
Dumb comes in many forms: he might have been lining up for a high five instead of a bump. I'd cut some slack unless he's got a history of being a D-Bag in real life.
   15. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:08 PM (#5968306)
Dumb comes in many forms: he might have been lining up for a high five instead of a bump. I'd cut some slack unless he's got a history of being a D-Bag in real life.
case in point.


the video is extremely clear: it's a nazi salute. if you want to argue that it's fine to do that in trump's america, feel free; if you want to argue he didn't know he was saluting nazis, again feel free; if you want to argue that he was just trying to be funny, sure, go for it; but you can't ####### say that the skinhead wasn't saluting nazis. that hot dog is not a sandwich.
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5968307)
Probably still warrants some sort of suspension.


I'm taking this as a failed attempt at dry humor and then going about my business.
   17. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:16 PM (#5968309)
Man. Covid has turned a lot of people into bored, insufferable ########. Cutting off a car at an intersection is several degrees more troubling than this. What happened to slapping someone in the back of the head and calling them a dumbass?
   18. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:19 PM (#5968311)
Man. Covid has turned a lot of people into bored, insufferable ########. Cutting off a car at an intersection is several degrees more troubling than this. What happened to slapping someone in the back of the head and calling them a dumbass?

i tell you what: let's see his internet history and then we'll talk.
   19. Tin Angel Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5968312)
Stiggles, you really need to develop a hobby other than being outraged online.
   20. phredbird Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:30 PM (#5968313)

i was going to jump in in the usual BBTF fashion without reading the article and mouth some stuff.

but i think his apology rises to the occasion.

it sounds to me like he didn't mean to do that, would have stopped himself, did not resort to white victimhood etc. ... or maybe the As PR people got to him in time before he made things worse. who knows.


i can remember as snotty little kids (this is a long time ago, my only excuse) that sig heil-ing was something we would do as a gesture that the one giving the salute obeys! but in a sarcastic way. i think a student may have done that to a teacher once and got yelled at, lectured to/suspended or something.

the nazi salute is such an obvious provocation that the postmodern artist anselm kiefer employed it in a series of 'art actions' -- photos of himself, giving the salute among ruins and empty landscapes, this at a time when germans were having trouble reconciling their recent past history to their present day lives. posing by himself in these various environments made the gestures look empty and futile and scary all at once. he kind of walks an edge that can be worrisome, but i believe this series was in aid of awareness and dialogue and not sweeping the shame of germany under a rug. kiefer was a student of joseph beuys, a guy i find kind of creepy and hard to get into, in spite of his standing in postmodern art.

more here


i know this is only tangentially related to what happened yesterday in oakland. its unfortunate, i think he knows it was not the thing to do. to put it mildly.


   21. phredbird Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:40 PM (#5968315)


then you've got this guy

... anybody with a modicum of art history education knows how far back the swastika goes, but, well ... in this day and age, i would avoid it myself. it's just too fraught. YMMV.

his other paintings are impressive, to my kooky eye.
   22. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5968317)
Stiggles, you really need to develop a hobby other than being outraged online.

if it makes you feel better, i have plenty of rage offline, as well.


think of it this way:
if i'm overreacting, then oh well; some mediocre, replaceable dumbass gets fired because he did something stupid.
if you're underreacting, then a nazi sympathizer gets to keep his managerial position where he has significant oversight over the future evaluation of players on the team (many of whom are minorities).
   23. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:08 PM (#5968318)

I'm in the camp of let's wait and see if anything else comes out about him over the next 48 hours or so before we buy that it was just an honest mistake. I have a hard time believing that anyone would be so stupid as to knowingly give a Nazi salute during a televised baseball game, so I'm inclined to accept his explanation. But it's also kind of a bizarre hand gesture to make in that situation, even if you're trying to do the forearm-bump karate-chop thing that they apparently have been doing lately.

And yes, I realize nobody cares what I think and also I hadn't thought about Ryan Christenson in ~20 years before today, so this isn't important to my life.
   24. Greg Pope Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:09 PM (#5968319)
if you're underreacting, then a nazi sympathizer gets to keep his managerial position where he has significant oversight over the future evaluation of players on the team (many of whom are minorities).

What are the chances that this guy's a nazi sympathizer? I'd peg it as less than a hundredth of one percent.
   25. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:24 PM (#5968321)
What are the chances that this guy's a nazi sympathizer? I'd peg it as less than a hundredth of one percent.

do you consider the current president of the united states to be a nazi sympathizer?

   26. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:31 PM (#5968322)
I'm in the camp of let's wait and see if anything else comes out about him over the next 48 hours or so before we buy that it was just an honest mistake
i would say that's fair.

this kind of thing is not often an isolated incident, and if there's a pattern of behavior, it tends to come out*.


*although i'm pretty sure the rona also makes this kind of thing harder to dig into as reporting resources are being spread thinner and thinner.
   27. flournoy Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:33 PM (#5968324)
Rule of thumb: If you're demanding an authoritarian society where people lose their livelihoods for perceived "thought crimes," real or imagined (to the extent that a "thought crime" can be real in the first place), then the Nazi sympathizers are not who you think they are.

To put it another way, just because Stiggles is an outright fascist, I don't want him to lose his livelihood or his voice. Every word that comes out of his mouth is like an in-kind contribution to the Trump re-election campaign. Keep it coming.
   28. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:50 PM (#5968326)
Rule of thumb: If you're demanding an authoritarian society where people lose their livelihoods for perceived "thought crimes," real or imagined (to the extent that a "thought crime" can be real in the first place), then the Nazi sympathizers are not who you think they are.
this is not a thought crime. he literally did something, in broad daylight, on camera. actions have consequences.

this incident is evidence (not proof, mind you; but it is evidence) that he cannot be trusted with managerial oversight of minority subordinates (players), which is one of his key responsibilities as bench coach. therefore, unless there's a damn good reason not to remove him, he should be removed.


lastly: i know damn well what my own proclivities are; that's why i call this out as loudly as i do, when i see it from others.

and finally:
hating people who discriminate against others != hating others on the basis of their race/gender/sexual orientation/nationality.
GTFOOH with that ACLU bullshit.
   29. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: August 07, 2020 at 03:55 PM (#5968327)
If you're demanding an authoritarian society


You're confused. Only the Oakland A's and presumably MLB can fire Christenson's ass if they think his presence is bad for business based on this little incident. As a free-market, righty kind of dude, you should be down with that.

Unless there is a bunch of stuff about Christenson in back of this, I personally don't think that should happen. But the discretionary power of capital and management works across cultural and ideological lines, and the Viral Social Media Age is showing people that in kind of a new way.
   30. BillWallace Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5968330)
Read the F Article, he apologized sincerely. There is nothing unless more bad info comes out.

That said:
flournoy I've been you, but that was when I was stupid and an ass. Grow up and look around, read the room. There are people in all camps with weak minds and insecurities who bend towards authoritarianism and would control others... but the ones who are currently causing the most damage by orders of magnitude are the ones who find black and brown people inconvenient at best, and who think the nazis really did get a lot of things right. So the culture warriors battling against those principles get some slack, even if they go too far from time to time.

A true freedom loving person, who thinks about 1984 and brave new world on a regular basis, can not in the current time look at political correctness and cancel culture and think that THAT is the key problem of this age, or else they are revealing something quite inhumane about themselves.
   31. Adam Starblind Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5968339)
My friend's cousin's roommate once accidentally burned a cross on somebody's lawn. He said he fell.
   32. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:26 PM (#5968342)
So no one has any evidence that this was anything other than someone somewhat clueless about how to line up for an elbow bump? But some wish to punish him anyhow? You’re the problem.


Nope, Not true. Not even. First, there's NFW you spend time in the bench and don't see it done. Second, they've done that sort of end of game celebration before and he's done it right.
But, yeah, elbow bump without the exposed elbow, kind of like the hand-on-heart straight-arm.

do you consider the current president of the united states to be a nazi sympathizer?

good people on both sides, amirite?
   33. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:34 PM (#5968344)
Rule of thumb: If you're demanding an authoritarian society where people lose their livelihoods for perceived "thought crimes," real or imagined (to the extent that a "thought crime" can be real in the first place), then the Nazi sympathizers are not who you think they are.

Like I said, I'm inclined to believe his explanation. But if, in a couple of days, someone uncovers a bunch of anti-Semitic tweets or racist emails from his past, then I think they should fire his ass. Does that make me the real Nazi? (No, it does not.)
   34. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:36 PM (#5968345)
The demand for punishable Nazis far exceeds the supply.
   35. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:43 PM (#5968346)
Here's what the A's put out after this came to light:

"We do not support or condone this gesture or the racist sentiment behind it," the A's said in a statement Thursday night. "This is incredibly offensive, especially in these times when we as a club and so many others are working to expose and address racial inequities in our country. We are deeply sorry that this happened on our playing field."

I'm kind of surprised the organization did not say something in there along the lines of "while Ryan's gesture was obviously unintentional, he is deeply sorry for inadvertently doing something deeply offensive" or something.

I mean, if he has any track record or past remarks or actions remotely along these lines, it's a whole different situation...but this would be an awfully weird time and place to throw down the Nazi salute.

Also, it's not like the organization doesn't likely know him extremely well:

1995: Drafted by the A's out of college
1996-1999: Plays in A's minor-league system
1998-2001: Plays for Oakland A's
2013: Manages Class A Beloit A's affiliate
2014: Manages Class A-Advanced Stockton A's affiliate
2015-2016: Manages Class AA Midland A's affiliate; they win league championship both seasons, and he is named Texas League Manager of the Year in 2016
2017: Manages Class AAA Nashville A's affiliate
2018-present: Oakland A's bench coach

I mean, unless the A's really blew their background checks, scouting reports, and job interviews with him over parts of the past 25 years, this is probably not part of a pattern, folks.
   36. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:51 PM (#5968348)
I mean, unless the A's really blew their background checks, scouting reports, and job interviews with him over parts of the past 25 years, this is probably not part of a pattern, folks.
why is that possibility less plausible to you than 'middle-aged person accidentally saluted hitler'?
   37. JRVJ Posted: August 07, 2020 at 04:56 PM (#5968350)
if i'm overreacting, then oh well; some mediocre, replaceable dumbass gets fired because he did something stupid.


It could be that I'm getting older, but I do not have the insouciance needed to destroy the life of a person I don't know anything about, due to an action that could just be a dumb physical mistake.
   38. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 07, 2020 at 05:14 PM (#5968352)
It could be that I'm getting older, but I do not have the insouciance needed to destroy the life of a person I don't know anything about, due to an action that could just be a dumb physical mistake.
the world needs ditch diggers, too. and coaching in the major leagues is a privilege, not a right.

i don't think you're wrong to want to extend a benefit of the doubt; i just don't have that in me right now. my level of tolerance for this is right near zero.
   39. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 07, 2020 at 06:11 PM (#5968364)
Covid has turned a lot of people into bored, insufferable a$$hole$.

Naah. There have always been people like this...except now they have Twitter accounts.

Maybe he was really doing this?
   40. A triple short of the cycle Posted: August 07, 2020 at 07:31 PM (#5968373)
Melvin and Slusser are both defending him as not being aware of what he was doing i.e. not intending to give a nazi salute.

A's -Astros tonite. Let's go A's.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 07, 2020 at 10:17 PM (#5968394)

i don't think you're wrong to want to extend a benefit of the doubt; i just don't have that in me right now. my level of tolerance for this is right near zero.


Man get some help, seriously. No one should be as angry as you are. It's unhealthy.
   42. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 07, 2020 at 11:56 PM (#5968402)
Man get some help, seriously. No one should be as angry as you are. It's unhealthy.
That's more than a bit patronizing. He's mad that someone's doing the Nazi thing, and thinks there should be consequences. He's not demanding police action. He's not marching on state capitals brandishing weapons of war over it.

I don't think the guy should lose his job, but geez. Some guy kneels for the anthem for reasons, and was basically labeled a traitor. This guy literally snapped off a nazi salute for no reason at all, but we're all super comfortable with "it's all good, G." If someone stood out there with a black glove doing the Tommie Smith thing, you can guarantee there'd be a lot more people unhappy about that.
   43. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 09:11 AM (#5968429)
Man get some help, seriously. No one should be as angry as you are. It's unhealthy.
it's refreshing to know that your tots and pears are with me.
   44. Lassus Posted: August 08, 2020 at 09:36 AM (#5968432)
The demand for punishable Nazis far exceeds the supply.

As if you actually gave a shit.


FYI, this comment is about you, not the coach. I'm with Dan Lee, the dude is just a moron.
   45. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 09:41 AM (#5968433)
The demand for punishable Nazis far exceeds the supply.
did (((george soros))) pay you to write that? #bugagoo
   46. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 08, 2020 at 10:22 AM (#5968438)
As if you actually gave a ####.


LOL. He'd hide them in his attic if they needed to be hidden. After all, there are good people on both sides.
   47. Fourth True Outcome Posted: August 08, 2020 at 01:18 PM (#5968459)
So people are upset that this man, acting in a managerial capacity at work (on television!), might suffer consequences of his actions? If I or one of my coworkers gave the nazi salute at work, I would expect there to be consequences. I don't care if he meant it or not, that's something wildly inappropriate for anyone, especially someone who oversees others, and that's whether he's a quiet but fervent racist or just an idiot who didn't realize it was offensive. There's a debate to be had about where the line is for what those consequences should be, but the idea he should apologize and we all move on is ridiculous, actions have consequences.
   48. bunyon Posted: August 08, 2020 at 01:38 PM (#5968463)
Co sign 42. In a world where kneeling for the anthem gets widespread outrage and calls for firings and blacklisting, I’m fine with loud yells for a Nazi salute, whatever the intent.
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 02:29 PM (#5968470)
That's more than a bit patronizing. He's mad that someone's doing the Nazi thing, and thinks there should be consequences. He's not demanding police action. He's not marching on state capitals brandishing weapons of war over it.

It's a meta comment. Stiggles is enraged in every thread, about everything. Even with everything going on in 2020, his level of vitriol is unwarranted and unhealthy. Hate is bad for you, even hatred of legitimately hatable people.
   50. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 08, 2020 at 02:47 PM (#5968475)
Hate is bad for you, even hatred of legitimately hatable people.


So it's bad to hate Nazis. Got it.
   51. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 02:58 PM (#5968479)
So it's bad to hate Nazis. Got it.

It's bad to hate anyone, but even if you don't accept that, it's bad to hate so much, you can't wait even until you know if someone's actually a Nazi before experiencing that hate.
   52. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 08, 2020 at 03:05 PM (#5968480)
It's not bad to hate "anyone". It's unfortunate, but, sometimes it's appropriate.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5968482)
It's not bad to hate "anyone". It's unfortunate, but, sometimes it's appropriate.

I have to disagree. Sometimes it's hard not to, but that should be our goal.
   54. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 08, 2020 at 03:27 PM (#5968489)
Sometimes it's hard not to, but that should be our goal.


Don't "should" me. I'll hate Nazis, and not myself in the morning if I decide that I don't have to.
   55. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 03:58 PM (#5968501)
Don't "should" me. I'll hate Nazis, and not myself in the morning if I decide that I don't have to.
he's the kind of "white moderate" that martin luther king ripped into in his "letter from a birmingham jail".
It's not bad to hate "anyone". It's unfortunate, but, sometimes it's appropriate.
i can admit my rage goes beyond "appropriate" levels; it's not a good thing. i've just decided that holding it in doesn't make things any better. i'd rather be authentically angry about the things and the people who matter to me, rather than seek the approval of "white moderates" who bend over backwards to ignore the literal nazis goosestepping through charlottesville and beyond.
   56. flournoy Posted: August 08, 2020 at 05:49 PM (#5968524)
flournoy I've been you, but that was when I was stupid and an ass.


I'm sorry to hear that things have gotten even worse for you since then.

the ones who are currently causing the most damage by orders of magnitude are the ones who find black and brown people inconvenient at best, and who think the nazis really did get a lot of things right.


Who are these people? I've never met one.

So the culture warriors battling against those principles get some slack, even if they go too far from time to time.


Violent extremists who try to rip our constitution to shreds either fighting imaginary enemies or for power consolidation get no slack.
   57. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 08, 2020 at 05:57 PM (#5968526)
So it's bad to hate Nazis. Got it.

Only if you punch them.

you can't wait even until you know if someone's actually a Nazi before experiencing that hate.

What's the fun in that?
   58. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:07 PM (#5968527)
Violent extremists who try to rip our constitution to shreds either fighting imaginary enemies or for power consolidation get no slack.

secret police in unmarked vehicles, with military hardware, are abducting people off the street at random. imaginary enemies, indeed.


that's happening in this ####### country, btw. not castro's cuba; not iron curtained east germany; it's happening here. ripping the constitution to shreds, indeed.


oh, and the federal government is doing it over the objections of local elected officials. power consolidation, indeed.
   59. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:17 PM (#5968528)
   60. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:21 PM (#5968530)
he's the kind of "white moderate" that martin luther king ripped into in his "letter from a birmingham jail".

I'm not a moderate of any kind. I'm an old school conservative. Like Leo XIII conservative.

   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:23 PM (#5968531)
   62. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:24 PM (#5968532)
I'm not a moderate of any kind. I'm an old school conservative. Like Leo XIII conservative.
i apologize. it was wrong of me to assume you wouldn't choose to be on the side of bull connor. that's my fault.
   63. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:28 PM (#5968533)
Try these:

thank you officers carl and leo.


in the america i grew up in, police investigated crimes instead of indiscriminately abducting random people, days after a crime happened. you must have grown up in a different country. maybe one whose government was overthrown by kissinger.
   64. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 08, 2020 at 06:38 PM (#5968535)
Who are these people? I've never met one.

Try this
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 07:24 PM (#5968538)
i apologize. it was wrong of me to assume you wouldn't choose to be on the side of bull connor. that's my fault.

Ad hominem. Non sequitor.
   66. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 07:39 PM (#5968539)
Ad hominem. Non sequitor.
once again, let me apologize. i assumed that you knew the context of what you were responding to, but i guess you were just spouting off in ignorance. once again, that's my mistake.
   67. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 07:56 PM (#5968544)
i hope you understand my tots and pears are with you as you try to pass 10th grade english.
   68. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 08, 2020 at 07:56 PM (#5968545)
Stiggles posts like an a-hole; acknowledges that he is widely thought to be an a-hole, even by those whose political positions overlaps his, because of what he posts here; yet continues to post like an a-hole. He just might be an a-hole.
   69. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 08, 2020 at 08:12 PM (#5968548)
I've always liked that Stiggles is so honest and straightforward about what his BS (and it's not always BS, to be fair) and where his interests lie. I much prefer to deal with him than with people who talk as if they respect me when they don't really care if I live or die. None of that passive aggressive garbage from Stiggles.
   70. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 08, 2020 at 08:37 PM (#5968552)
I've always liked that Stiggles is so honest and straightforward about what his BS (and it's not always BS, to be fair) and where his interests lie. I much prefer to deal with him than with people who talk as if they respect me when they don't really care if I live or die. None of that passive aggressive garbage from Stiggles.
i'm sure my style is easier to approach when you're familiar with it from topics where death is not on the line.

granted, that shitty MFer does bring out this same level of ire in the basketball thread, and that started around 18 months ago, so maybe there's been an event horizon going on and all the different 57i66135 are converging into one, pure FU11 57i66135. god help us all.
   71. Lassus Posted: August 08, 2020 at 10:14 PM (#5968563)
who try to rip our constitution to shreds

Flournoy, Trump did this TODAY. EO's with zero constitutional backing or authority. No one throwing red paint on businesses is doing anywhere near the damage. But go ahead, imagine you know what danger to the Constitution actually is.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2020 at 11:13 PM (#5968576)
Flournoy, Trump did this TODAY. EO's with zero constitutional backing or authority.

Sorta like Obama did a bunch of times? Just because you like what he did, doesn't make it any different.

I much prefer to deal with him than with people who talk as if they respect me when they don't really care if I live or die.

Why do you think people who disagree with you politically don't care if you live or die? That's crazy. I don't wish anyone here any harm, not even much less severe harm.

This is a major problem in current discourse. Not agreeing with my specific solution to a problem = "literal" violence against me, is an insane and dangerous position to stake out.
   73. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: August 08, 2020 at 11:21 PM (#5968578)
EOs, according to the Federal Register:

Trump 177, so far
Obama 276, eight years
Bush43 291, eight years
Clinton 254, eight years

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/executive-orders

So this is obviously something that comtemporary POTUSes do. Whether Trump's today are egregious in some way--don't know. Ben Sasse, the hardcore NeverTrump R Senator from Nebraska, Tweeted that what Trump did today (and to make it even, Sasse also included what Obama did with DACA) was "unconstitutional slop." Sasse may be right, of course, but like all big-time pols, he will be looking to protect his own levers of power. So I don't know.

As to Stiggles, he doesn't bother me, but like I said on the COVID thread, he is in the group of guys, along with Clapper, RMc, Andy, and a few others, whose acts would play better over in the Discord politics thread that Andy promotes occasionally (Andy in fairness apparently posts there a lot). Being meta and inflammatory was just the usual vibe on OTP. With OTP and many of the bad boyz from the OTP crew gone, it sticks out some around here now.
   74. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 08, 2020 at 11:34 PM (#5968580)
d one of the actions would not increase federal unemployment benefits at all. Instead, the expert said it would instead create a new program that could take “months” to set up. And Trump’s directive to halt evictions primarily calls for federal agencies to “consider” if they should be stopped.
Trump also mischaracterized the legal stature of the measures, referring to them as “bills.” Congress writes and votes on bills, not the White House. The documents Trump signed on Saturday were a combination of memorandums and an executive order.

Second paragraph is patently unfair. It assumes that Trump understands the governing process, for which evidence has not been offered.
   75. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 09, 2020 at 02:08 AM (#5968584)
Why do you think people who disagree with you politically don't care if you live or die? That's crazy. I don't wish anyone here any harm, not even much less severe harm.
I never said you wished me harm, or that you would do me harm. This is a major problem in current discourse: putting words in other people's mouths, then playing the victim over it.

The other major problem in current discourse: Kneeling while trying to protest police brutality are considered traitorously disrespectful, while an actual Nazi salute gets handwaved away. I get bonus points for being topical.
   76. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 09, 2020 at 07:18 AM (#5968585)
David Newhan, a retired Jewish baseball player, says he and Christenson are best friends. They were best men at each other's weddings. David's father, sportswriter Ross Newhan, has also known Christenson's family since their kids played travel ball together. They both vouch for him.

So does Bob Melvin, manager of the A's, who is also Jewish.

I'm willing to chalk this one up as a very dumb mistake. Hopefully Christenson learns something from it.
   77. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 09, 2020 at 08:35 AM (#5968586)
Good news.
   78. Lassus Posted: August 09, 2020 at 10:36 AM (#5968590)
Sorta like Obama did a bunch of times? Just because you like what he did, doesn't make it any different.

OK, be stupid.
   79. Greg Pope Posted: August 09, 2020 at 11:26 AM (#5968593)
I'm willing to chalk this one up as a very dumb mistake. Hopefully Christenson learns something from it.

Yes. This is like if we had a meeting at work and the procedure was that in order to speak you had to raise your hand. And then halfway through the meeting Mary from accounting raises her hand, but it's a little bit forward. And someone says, "Uh, Mary, that looks like a Nazi salute". And Mary goes, "oops, sorry".
   80. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 09, 2020 at 11:55 AM (#5968596)
Yes. This is like if we had a meeting at work and the procedure was that in order to speak you had to raise your hand. And then halfway through the meeting Mary from accounting raises her hand, but it's a little bit forward. And someone says, "Uh, Mary, that looks like a Nazi salute". And Mary goes, "oops, sorry".
or like when a drunk police officer breaks into someone else's apartment then shoots them dead. it's clear self-defense.
   81. . Posted: August 09, 2020 at 01:21 PM (#5968608)
Don’t you have homes????
   82. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 09, 2020 at 01:31 PM (#5968612)

Yes. This is like if we had a meeting at work and the procedure was that in order to speak you had to raise your hand. And then halfway through the meeting Mary from accounting raises her hand, but it's a little bit forward. And someone says, "Uh, Mary, that looks like a Nazi salute". And Mary goes, "oops, sorry".

Well, it's a little more like if Mary said, "Oh, you're right, when I raise my hand like this [doing it again while standing at attention] it looks like I'm saying 'Heil Hitler!' Oops, sorry."

Again, at this point I believe it was an innocent mistake, but can you understand why some of us were in wait-and-see mode before immediately doing so?
   83. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 09, 2020 at 03:02 PM (#5968633)
Well, it's a little more like if Mary said, "Oh, you're right, when I raise my hand like this [doing it again while standing at attention] it looks like I'm saying 'Heil Hitler!' Oops, sorry."

as opposed to..."it's now company policy that everyone has to wear masks and bump elbows to prevent the spread of infectious disease". 'that's fascism; heil hitler'.
Again, at this point I believe it was an innocent mistake, but can you understand why some of us were in wait-and-see mode before immediately doing so?

i still haven't seen anything to make me think he shouldn't be fired. i don't care how many random white people he can find to vouch for him; i still have questions about his ability to lead a diverse group of people without discriminating against people of color.


i understand people want to give others a second chance, but every second chance comes at the cost of someone else's first chance, and i'm fairly sure whoever gets their first chance won't have flashed a nazi salute on television.
   84. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 09, 2020 at 04:55 PM (#5968652)
Again, at this point I believe it was an innocent mistake, but can you understand why some of us were in wait-and-see mode before immediately doing so?
This. Christenson was granted the benefit of the doubt instantaneously, and if you took offense to his Nazi salute, then YOU were the fascist. On the other hand, the kneeling brown guy goes out of his way to say that he intended no disrespect, and half the country lost their minds anyways. The double standard is, to say the least, grating.
   85. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: August 09, 2020 at 05:04 PM (#5968653)
Re 73: Stiggles is one of the very few people I have on ignore, cuz boy be crazay. I'd appreciate not being lumped in with him, thanks.
   86. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 09, 2020 at 05:31 PM (#5968661)
I'd appreciate not being lumped in with him, thanks.


No worries, you're lumped in with some other crazies.
   87. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: August 10, 2020 at 05:14 AM (#5968730)
As to Stiggles, he doesn't bother me, but like I said on the COVID thread, he is in the group of guys, along with Clapper, RMc, Andy, and a few others, whose acts would play better over in the Discord politics thread that Andy promotes occasionally


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Please no.

Ray and Andy are enough.
   88. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: August 10, 2020 at 05:21 AM (#5968731)
I do have to say ... this whole kerfuffle ... seems like a brain fart kerfuffle.

Unless some prior behaviour comes out ... I've got no spare ##### to give at the present time.
   89. MY PAIN IS NOT A HOLIDAY (CoB). Posted: August 10, 2020 at 05:50 AM (#5968732)
Because ... like ... why?
   90. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2020 at 09:12 AM (#5968741)
Everything I've read about this makes me think this was unintentional, though unfortunate. Ugh.
   91. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 10, 2020 at 10:34 AM (#5968761)
I do have to say ... this whole kerfuffle ... seems like a brain fart kerfuffle.

why a brain fart, but not a freudian slip?

you people keep bending over backwards to make excuses for this guy, but you don't know who he is, what he's like, what he believes or anything else about him, other than the fact that he flashed a nazi salute on camera. and yet, you still take his excuses at face value, and give him the benefit of the doubt, and it comes so naturally to you that you don't even stop to consider why you're so excited to see him getting off in your face?


incidents like this raise legitimate questions, and handwaving them away just because some rando who flashed a nazi salute brings out his childhood friends' father's rabbi, buries those questions before they're even asked. stop it.
   92. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: August 10, 2020 at 10:44 AM (#5968765)
As I noted in #7 above I'm willing to give Christenson the benefit of the doubt here. But some of the arguments I'm seeing here are nonsense. This is a ####### Nazi salute. If I accidentally hit the gas instead of the brake at a stoplight and rearend the car in front of me I'm getting punished. I think it's reasonable that when someone pulls a Nazi salute that they get punished (and I don't want to see him fired* but a fine and/or suspension seems appropriate).

* assuming no other information indicating something more nefarious at play.
   93. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2020 at 02:12 PM (#5968835)
I didn't see any mention in the comments here about how he likes to do some kind of fake karate thing in lieu of a elbow bump or whatever. (Susan Slusser tweeted some details on this at the time.) That, to me, is a more realistic aspect of the excuse than that he has a bunch of Jewish friends, or identifies as progressive, or any other thing that may correlate with a lack of desire to give a Nazi salute but certainly isn't exculpatory. Sometimes bodies do stuff that looks weird.


   94. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: August 10, 2020 at 02:32 PM (#5968851)
(I'm speaking to intent. The response/punishments are a different matter, where I certainly would understand taking an action against him even if he wasn't trying to do this.)
   95. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 10, 2020 at 05:40 PM (#5968894)
As I noted in #7 above I'm willing to give Christenson the benefit of the doubt here. But some of the arguments I'm seeing here are nonsense. This is a ####### Nazi salute. If I accidentally hit the gas instead of the brake at a stoplight and rearend the car in front of me I'm getting punished.

In what way would you be punished for the accident (if it was just a simple mistake as you describe above and not DUI/reckless/texting/etc.)?

I think it's reasonable that when someone pulls a Nazi salute that they get punished (and I don't want to see him fired* but a fine and/or suspension seems appropriate).

I think that's reasonable. I think it's also reasonable to say, "based on this guy's history, we believe this was an honest mistake and we're not going to punish him" (although presumably they also warned him that any whiff of this kind of behavior again will actually be punished).

I didn't see any mention in the comments here about how he likes to do some kind of fake karate thing in lieu of a elbow bump or whatever. (Susan Slusser tweeted some details on this at the time.) That, to me, is a more realistic aspect of the excuse than that he has a bunch of Jewish friends, or identifies as progressive, or any other thing that may correlate with a lack of desire to give a Nazi salute but certainly isn't exculpatory. Sometimes bodies do stuff that looks weird.

I mentioned it in #23. I didn't really find that explanation exculpatory by itself, but combined with the other stuff and the fact that nothing else of this nature has come out about him, I tend to believe him.
   96. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: August 10, 2020 at 05:43 PM (#5968896)
I agree with pretty much all of #95.
   97. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 10, 2020 at 06:04 PM (#5968902)
Also, in case it wasn't clear, I'm Jewish. No, this doesn't give me any unique insight into the situation--we're all entitled to our own reaction--but I didn't want to make it sound like I was telling some group that I'm not a part of how they should react to this.
   98. ramifications of an exciting 57i66135 Posted: August 10, 2020 at 06:05 PM (#5968903)
I think that's reasonable. I think it's also reasonable to say, "based on this guy's history, we believe this was an honest mistake and we're not going to punish him" (although presumably they also warned him that any whiff of this kind of behavior again will actually be punished).

who the #### is 'we'?

there was no independent investigation here; it may not just be a bunch of old white guys covering up one of their friends' racist outbursts by sweeping it under the rug, but if that's what it is, this is exactly what it would look like.
   99. Tin Angel Posted: August 10, 2020 at 06:19 PM (#5968907)
Stiggles, you realize you could actually be spending your time taking actions against racism and volunteering in a real way, person to person, instead of posting on a baseball forum about it all day right? Since we are basically all old white Nazi-apologizers, it seems like your time would be better spent actually doing something instead of drawing conclusions about a thing one baseball player did and arguing with anyone that disagrees with *your opinion.* You are the yin to SBB's yang.
   100. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: August 10, 2020 at 06:29 PM (#5968909)
Stiggles is one of the very few people I have on ignore, cuz boy be crazay. I'd appreciate not being lumped in with him, thanks.


I also have him on ignore, but only because he refuses to use capital letters. I can't speak to his sanity.
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