flip

I don’t think this makes Howie a liar. Just like his falsehoods about dating women who look like Shelley Long and Julie Bowen don’t make him a liar. This is normal male behavior.

I was married for 20 years. Got divorced, eventually remarried. I've called my new wife by my ex-wife's name a few times

Never married but was best man for my friend's second wedding. I was absolutely TERRIFIED that I was going to slip up and call wife #2 by wife #1's name in my toast. I carefully limited how much I said her name (twice) just to be sure.

Very funny, 102, very.

Never married but was best man for my friend's second wedding. I was absolutely TERRIFIED that I was going to slip up and call wife #2 by wife #1's name in my toast. I carefully limited how much I said her name (twice) just to be sure.

I was at a wedding where the father of the bride DID say the first husband's name in his toast. I didn't know them at all (was there as a plus one) so I don't know the consequences of the slip up. Although marriage 2 also ended in divorce eventually.

i was also guilty of "the latter" once (very early in a relationship, name uttered was one from a previous many year relationship). owned up to it immediately and my partner was understanding. honesty and open/clear communication are the best. (ymmv)
was it a mood kill at the time? of course.

--

kuiper: i think i'm where most people are at here...

that it would be intentional seems impossible. i genuinely believe he wanted to say good things about the museum (and, hey!, I'm excited that they're getting a new building - the current one isn't great)

greg d's #3 (panic) - um, unlikely. was too smooth for that?

leaving "say in private and slips in public" and "word salad". i'm generally disposed to word salad explanations (and announcing is hard! / spend enough hours on air and you'll do something) but i'm not sure what word combo results in that outcome? word said in private and slipped out in public is the most likely explanation, though i'm not willing to put money on it or anything (i don't know any of these people). i don't speak on air for a living, but i'm pretty sure some internal gear in my brain would shut my mouth down like partway through or that i'd catch myself IMMEDIATELY there after. (afaik, i have never said that word - i'm judging my potential response by stuff like rapping along to something and bailing mid-syllable or whatever. that said, announcing is different - you (i?) dampen parts of your brain (i dabbled at announcing, poorly) - but not shut down completely.)

unlike mccoy, i don't think it's trivially easy to suss out what kuiper does and says in private.

i am sympathetic to both the ideas that "it's not fair to potentially let someone go over a malaprop" and "how hard is it to find someone qualified to announce baseball who doesn't make this error" and am okay with a host of a's choices here. this does seem fundamentally different than what brennanman did but - again - how hard is it to find someone qualified to announce baseball who doesn't make this error?

--

i was talking with a queer friend from WV last night - big fan of mountaineer basketball (but only basketball), likes huggins - and told her of his comments. not thrilled! she wants him gone.
huggins is a very good coach (was a great coach - to still be very good at his age, given the nature of change in the sport over the last few decades, is truly impressive) but a bad human and i would love it if he retired yesterday. (and, to circle back slightly, an old tweet where huggins thanked his friend brennaman for speaking to his team is making the rounds.)

Unless Kuiper surrounds himself with some extremely private white supremacists his private actions will be made public very quickly after this. That it appears nobody is coming out of the woodwork to say what a scum he is is evidence that he likely doesn't say this in private or if he does to a very cloae circle of people

that does not track with what i have seen from the handful of overtly racist people i've known and the handful of public figures i've known - circles not without overlap.

I should have known some sniper would appear - lots of them on BBTF in 2023.

You new here?

First time on the internet?

but i'm not sure what word combo results in that outcome?

I don't think it's word salad at all. I think it's tripping over he unstressed syllable in the rhythm of the phrase, which doesn't want the long O in the unstressed syllable between the two stressed long Es. You've got three long E stressed syllables /-/-/. That pattern matters to a professional public speaker.

The Huggins thing . . . he's got to go, unless perhaps he chooses to do some victim-impact training and become a face for acceptance and tolerance going forward (in a world where such a voice could actually carry some weight). But I do think his written apology is well-written. Takes full responsibility that what he said was awful, does not diminish or hand-wave the impact it has. I liked the reference to "as I've told my players for 40 years, words and actions have consequences." And he's prepared to accept them, as well as accept the need to grow and change. All too often excuses for such behavior blame society and abdicate any personal responsiblity for one's actions.

In response to Howie and others - my second marriage is far better than my first for many reasons. Chief among then are mutual honesty and respect. I assumed Howie was joking with his post - ending with "date consecutive women with the same name" made me smile on a day where work has been exceptionally challenging and I took that as a written "wink-wink this advice is NOT serious".

I don’t think this makes Howie a liar. Just like his falsehoods about dating women who look like Shelley Long and Julie Bowen don’t make him a liar. This is normal male behavior.

Wait, what? I don't know who Julie Bowen is, but since when is Shelley Long some exemplar of beauty? I've dated and married women more attractive than Shelley Long. Unless emaciated is your standard of beauty, there are lots of normal women who are better looking than lots of Hollywood actresses.

Good enough for Sam Malone (and national TV) should be good enough for BBTF.

I don't think it's word salad at all. I think it's tripping over he unstressed syllable in the rhythm of the phrase, which doesn't want the long O in the unstressed syllable between the two stressed long Es. You've got three long E stressed syllables /-/-/. That pattern matters to a professional public speaker.

Great point ... and he left out the article which makes that first "E" -- the critical one -- naturally drift more toward an "I." I just enunciated it. Try saying "The Negro League Museum" and "Negro League Museum" at announcer speed with announcer enunciation three times and you'll easily see. No "I" drift in the former; a bunch in the latter.

I guess accent/dialect could matter -- mine's similar to Kuiper's -- but it's an obvious thing. If you say it without the article, the multiple seriatim "E"s come out sounding unnatural and weird and whiny and it's easy to see why your senses and brain would try to avoid the sound. It's doable, but unnatural with a lot of internal unconscious sensory resistance.

I don't know who Julie Bowen is

Don't be lazy.

No "I" drift in the former; a bunch in the latter.

Not really.

Huggins: “It was a Crosstown Shootout, yea, no, what it was, was all those f–gs, those Catholic f–gs I think.”

I asked this elsewhere, but I was legitimately wondering (without bothering so far in Huggins' case to find out) from which religion is "catholic fags" a regular insult? Baptists? Presbyterians?

Unitarians?

Not really.

You're from Boston.

If your "E's" come out like mine do, "Negro League Museum," without the article, where you just hit the soundwaves with it right away, sounds awful. "The Negro League Museum" significantly better though not great, something like "Negro League Hall of Fame" perfectly fine and normal.

I don't think it's word salad at all. I think it's tripping over he unstressed syllable in the rhythm of the phrase, which doesn't want the long O in the unstressed syllable between the two stressed long Es. You've got three long E stressed syllables /-/-/. That pattern matters to a professional public speaker.

Great point ... and he left out the article which makes that first "E" -- the critical one -- naturally drift more toward an "I." I just enunciated it. Try saying "The Negro League Museum" and "Negro League Museum" at announcer speed with announcer enunciation and you'll easily see. No "I" drift in the former; a bunch in the latter.

I guess accent/dialect could matter -- mine's similar to Kuiper's -- but it's an obvious thing. If you say it without the article, the multiple seriatim "E"s come out sounding unnatural and weird and whiny and it's easy to see why your senses and brain would try to avoid the sound. It's doable, but unnatural with a lot of internal unconscious sensory resistance.

Occam guffaws from the beyond.

Occam guffaws from the beyond.

... perplexed and agitated that his name and term would be used to denote a situation where someone describes a "phenomenal" day by using a slur.

Not really.
You're from Boston.

I'm from the Mohawk Valley, Utica/Rome. Definitely not really.


... perplexed and agitated that his name and term would be used to denote a situation where someone describes a "phenomenal" day by using a slur.

#2 ("This one") does not indicate intentional, active use. It indicates subconscious use and auto-filter malfunction.

You're from Boston.

If your "E's" come out like mine do, "Negro League Museum," without the article, where you just hit the soundwaves with it right away, sounds awful. "The Negro League Museum" significantly better though not great, something like "Negro League Hall of Fame" perfectly fine and normal.

I know the difference between the long E sound and the short I sound. There's a big difference. A BEEG difference.

I know the difference between the long E sound and the short I sound. There's a big difference. A BEEG difference.

Who doesn't?

#2 ("This one") does not indicate intentional, active use. It indicates subconscious use and auto-filter malfunction.

"He used a slur to describe a phenomenal day" wouldn't qualify as Occam's Razor or anything close.

Silly idea.

"I had a phe-NOM-enal day today; I spent it with a bunch of n_____s."

One thinks not. Occam absolutely thinks not.

Here is a Julie Bowen pic for those not familiar with her work.

Good enough for Sam Malone (and national TV) should be good enough for BBTF.

She's a good comic actress, and comediennes are not usually bombshells. Unless you're going to start telling us that no one here has dated anyone prettier than Carol Burnett, or Rhea Perlman.

Here is a Julie Bowen pic for those not familiar with her work.

Bad link. And I'm very disappointed it's not Albright or Rick Astley.

Maybe it was a nude.

Here is a Julie Bowen pic for those not familiar with her work.

DANG I STINK

She's a good comic actress, and comediennes are not usually bombshells. Unless you're going to start telling us that no one here has dated anyone prettier than Carol Burnett, or Rhea Perlman.

Ahem. -clears throat-

Unless you're going to start telling us that no one here has dated anyone prettier than Carol Burnett, or Rhea Perlman.

I have.

I always liked Shelley Long BITD. Even saw The Money Pit multiple times. Not really because of Shelley Long, but more because ... well, come to think of it, I'm not really sure why.

Not really because of Shelley Long, but more because ... well, come to think of it, I'm not really sure why.

Because you have poor taste in cinema?

The Huggins thing . . . he's got to go, unless perhaps he chooses to do some victim-impact training and become a face for acceptance and tolerance going forward

He coaches in West Virginia, a state that recently banned gender-affirming care for minors. A 2021 study ranked WV as being the least accepting state in the Union when it comes to homosexuality. If there's ever a safe space for bigotry towards queer folks, it's West Virginia. Bob Huggins will be just fine.

Because you have poor taste in cinema?

That appears to be the case! So thank you Shelley Long, for bringing that out.

Captain Joe, well done.

That appears to be the case! So thank you Shelley Long, for bringing that out.

IMO, poor films are the result of poor stories/writing. The actors are usually professionals.

whats the problem with shelly long? or the other girl/girls that looks like her? she your usual bland pretty White girl without fake boobs or bytchiness. if you prefer em thicc that's your thing but it don't make all the blond White girlz not pretty

lots of states banning gender affirming care for minors. and adults if they possibly can. general hatred of the UnPure or whatever they excuse is. i disremember the Christ preaching it being good to hate and hurt those who are Different. sounds a lot more like hitler's preaching

The actors are usually professionals.

Shelley Long certainly is.

disremember the Christ preaching it being good to hate and hurt those who are Different.

I confess to have missed the day in Bible study wherein Jesus came out in favor of for-profit doctors to be chopping off the breasts of 14-year-olds. Must have been an eventful class.

ad hominem removed. should know better

I confess to have missed the day in Bible study wherein Jesus came out in favor of for-profit doctors to be chopping off the breasts of 14-year-olds.

Is this where we cherry-pick the Bible rules that matter?

IMO, poor films are the result of poor stories/writing. The actors are usually professionals.

I think it is pretty hard to make a good tv show or movie - there's no shortage of projects that have a host of talented writers and talented actors and talented whatever else that just don't quite turn out right. (For that matter, it's not like the writers aren't usually professionals as well - as well as most of the behind the scenes people.)
One of the funnier and more talented people I've known in the performing arts has been nominated for multiple Emmys and a Tony for writing. (I wouldn't be surprised if his college roommate was a Primate at one point, but I digress.) The last time I tried one of his tv shows it had a good cast, okay premise... and tanked, more or less deservedly. It happens.

100%, Hombre. We'll see if Huggins is a man of his word or just making sh!t up to hide his bigotry.

Per Woj: Huggins to return, serve a suspension, have a $1m salary reduction, and attend sensitivity training.

i am sympathetic to both the ideas that "it's not fair to potentially let someone go over a malaprop" and "how hard is it to find someone qualified to announce baseball who doesn't make this error" and am okay with a host of a's choices here. this does seem fundamentally different than what brennanman did but - again - how hard is it to find someone qualified to announce baseball who doesn't make this error?

I mean, isn't that like asking, "How hard is it to find a shortstop who doesn't throw the ball over the first baseman's head?" It is impossible to find someone qualified who doesn't make errors.

well, when i say this error - this is doing some heavy lifting, no?

which goes back to what's the narrative behind it happening, which is a lousy basis for making these kinds of analyses but ... we've got what we've got.

I mean, isn't that like asking, "How hard is it to find a shortstop who doesn't throw the ball over the first baseman's head?" It is impossible to find someone qualified who doesn't make errors.

Well, the error is about degree, too. "How hard is it to find a shortstop who doesn't throw the ball over the first baseman's head?", sure. But how hard is it to find a shortstop who doesn't turn around and throw the ball into the left field bleachers? Not saying Kuiper's error is more like the second, but it's not a normal announcer misstatement, hence all the notoriety it's received.

but it's not a normal announcer misstatement, hence all the notoriety it's received.

Huh? Announcers and humans generally routinely mispronounce words. Like multiple times per day in some instances.

Dallas Braden is one smart guy or he has a really good lawyer writing his material (or maybe both):

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/dallas-braden-explains-lack-reaction-121910158.html

from a USA Today story

I don't think Braden is lying, or even mistaken. Some people can't listen to 2 conversations at the same time and process what both speakers are saying. I know that I'm one of those people. (Strangely, when I'm talking, I can process the gist of concurrent conversations fairly easily. But when I'm listening, it's "one at a time" or it's all noise.)

Dallas Braden is one smart guy or he has a really good lawyer writing his material (or maybe both):

So now we are also to punish those who don't let out a welp or have their eyeballs rocket out of their sockets when his/her colleague utters a comment that may or may not have been bigoted?

151 - i agree, joe. or, at minimum, think that's very credible.

We can rest assured that Dallas Braden has heard the word in question numerous times, as have I. It's in (extremely) common currency in the United States and it remains utterly bizarre that people continue to pretend that it isn't.

We can rest assured that Dallas Braden has heard the word in question numerous times, as have I.

No one, including Dallas Braden, has claimed he hasn't heard the word numerous times. Of all your posts, that was the dumbest.

I listen to a lot of 2-person podcasts, and so often the hosts are not listening to each other at all. They're planning what they're going to say next and you can't really do both at the same time.

For Kuiper's sake, I hope it was just a Steve Levy moment.

Levy kept it together for a while then hilarity ensued. Couldn't have helped that Olbermann was feeding him lines like, "Good thing there's no video of that."

152. You are an interesting individual, with a multiplicity of viewpoints.

I am envious of the content (of Braden's letter, not post 152). Mr. Braden is either a brilliant writer or he has a brilliant writer working for him.
It's NOT for me to judge the truthfulness of the content; it's a great explanation.
American River College and Texas Tech may be fine educational institutions (I have no personal knowledge), I've seen Ivy League educated lawyers submit worse material.

That is some high quality prose.

Some of these lawyer written statements sound more like risk management treatises.

posted for no reason...


klaus schwab. go.



[ Ignored Comment ], this is your time to shine.

Kind of unusual for Braden to put out a statement in the first place. Nobody was upset with him (well, the statement says, “several people” were). And it’s not exactly a ringing defense of Kuiper.

It seems likely that various reporters, bloggers & tweeters may have been looking for some comment from Braden. His reaction/non-reaction was mentioned by several here.

Huh? Announcers and humans generally routinely mispronounce words. Like multiple times per day in some instances.

By now I assume this responding to things that weren't said is actually an unconscious practice for you.

So now we are also to punish those who don't let out a welp or have their eyeballs rocket out of their sockets when his/her colleague utters a comment that may or may not have been bigoted?

Unlike some.

Kuiper got fired today.

A source briefed on the situation said, “This decision was based on a variety of factors, including information uncovered in the internal review.”

On-going saga:

A's broadcaster Glen Kuiper fired after using racial slur on air
Kupier's statement:

He reiterated that apology as part of another statement released Monday night, taking full responsibility for what he called "a terrible but honest mispronunciation" during his excitement to talk about his trip to the museum earlier that day.

"Please know racism is in no way a part of me; it never has been and it never will be," he said. "I appreciate the Negro League Museum president Bob Kendrick and Oakland A's great Dave Stewart's public support of me in light of this. I am an honest, caring, kind, honorable, respectful husband and father who would never utter a disparaging word about anybody. Those who know me best know this about me.

"I wish the Oakland A's and NBC Sports would have taken into consideration my 20-year career, my solid reputation, integrity and character, but in this current environment traits like integrity and character are no longer considered. I will always have a hard time understanding how one mistake in a 20-year broadcasting career is cause for termination, but I know something better is in my future."

I'd like to know what the "information uncovered in the internal review" was about. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the A's cutting local ties on their way out the door. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that a guy born in 1950 has a problem updating his vocabulary for the 21st century.

#164 - Not sure how much it changes your overall point, but Glen Kuiper was born in 1963, not 1950.

164--I'm neither a husband or a father, but at least I don't throw the n-word around.

Seriously, do I ####### hate the use of "husband and father" to mean "good human being."

#### you, your wife, your kid(s), and your speechwriter.

#164 - Not sure how much it changes your overall point, but Glen Kuiper was born in 1963, not 1950.

I got Glen and Duane mixed up. I contend this confusion is understandable!

I got Glen and Duane mixed up. I contend this confusion is understandable!

it's at least the 2nd time it's happened in this thread.

And if one of them wasn't me, I did the same elsewhere anyhow.

To avoid confusion all Kuipers should be legally required to change their name to Duane. It's the only sensible thing to do.

For some strange reason I watched some of the Seattle-A's game last night (on the Bay Area Oakland A's channel). I guess I was curious who the A's television announcers would be. I honestly don't know who the play-by-play announcer was but Dallas Braden was the analyst.

It was one of the weirdest games I have ever watched. And it had nothing to do with what occurred on the field. The "issue" I had with the broadcast was that the play-by-play announcer spoke almost exclusively about the Mariners. He talked about Ichiro, he talked about Edgar Martinez, he talked about Nelson Cruz. He talked in glowing terms about every current Mariner. He talked about the Mariners' 14-game winning streak last year. He talked about the Mariners making the post-season last year and gave details on how each series went. He talked about the difference in dimensions between the current Seattle ballpark and the Kingdome. He talked about Seattle manager Scott Servais as a minor league player. I could go on and on (he did). I watched the game for about an hour and he talked about the Mariners around 55 minutes of that time. The A's were actually leading the game while I watched with the A's pitcher throwing a 1-hit shutout. But he did not interrupt his Mariners soliloquy to mention any of that stuff.

My first thought was that he was a Mariners announcer that was doing the A's game due to Glen Kuiper's dismissal. I now believe that he was one of the A's radio announcers that was asked to do television last night. Anyway it was bizarre to say the least.

Was it Johnny Doskow? I think he called games in the minors

I'd like to know what the "information uncovered in the internal review" was about.

unfortunately, if Kuiper doesn't publicly go after the A's, it's going to look like there's fire there.

defendants are under no legal obligation to testify before a jury, and it usually is a terrible idea for a variety of reasons. but judge disclaimers aside, it seems unlikely that all 12 jurors typically can completely set aside their wish to hear from the defendant.

the difficulty for Kuiper is if he knows there is probably something bad - like a one-time incident or a couple of seemingly-private off-color emails - but perhaps indicative more of carelessness/too much booze than owning a white hood, then pushing to make it public is a net negative.

but it's also possible that there is a consistent pattern of terrible behavior (aka owning a white hood), in which case his decision is made for him because he can't possibly fight back.

I guess we'll never know.

Huggins with a DUI in PA, a blood-alcohol content of 0.21 in a 0.08 state. He had another DUI back in '04, so I'll look at this from a positve angle and be glad he'd gone nearly two decades without drinking and driving.

ESPN

Stating the obvious here, but he went nearly two decades without getting caught…

Also have to wonder if he was drunk when doing that podcast…it would make more sense if so.

Huggins has announced his retirement.

The guy had trash bags of empty beer bottles in the passenger side and trunk of his car, as well as an empty cooler. And it doesn’t sound like he was driving to the recycling facility. I hope he gets the help he needs and doesn’t put other people’s lives at risk in the future.