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Saturday, November 20, 2021

A’s land RHP Honeywell in trade with Rays

The A’s struck a deal with the Rays on Friday afternoon to acquire right-hander Brent Honeywell Jr. in exchange for cash considerations.


A’s get: RHP Brent Honeywell
Rays get: Cash considerations

It wasn’t that long ago that Honeywell was rated as one of baseball’s elite prospects. Along the way, a slew of elbow injuries derailed his progression and pushed him down Tampa Bay’s depth chart to the point where he became stuck in a roster crunch.

Perhaps a move to Oakland can provide a needed fresh start for the 26-year-old righty. A second-round pick by the Rays in 2014, Honeywell quickly ascended through the Rays’ Minor League system and appeared on the brink of a breakthrough to Major League stardom. However, that all came to a screeching halt in 2017.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:45 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, brent honeywell, rays

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   1. Doug Jones threw harder than me Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:10 AM (#6053668)
Trades between the A's and Rays are very rare, IIRC. Probably because the two organizations fancy themselves (and probably are) the "smartest organizations in the majors". So that makes any trade between them very intriguing. Too bad there isn't another player involved.
   2. Dr. Pooks Posted: November 20, 2021 at 03:06 AM (#6053671)
I would surmise that another factor making trades between the A's and the Rays a rarity is the fact that a significant portion of the trades for both teams are focused on dumping salary.
   3. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 08:22 AM (#6053678)
It’s odd the A’s paid cash. Can’t have been much.
   4. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:33 PM (#6053703)
I presume this a pure 40-man deadline-related crunch. Tampa had too many players they'd rather protect on the 40-man, and the A's have a few slots open, and it is worth a little bit of cash to find out. I'm surprised more teams do not make deals like this right before the 40-man deadline: All it would typically take is a little cash, or a very young, low-level prospect who does not yet need to be put on the 40-man because of their lack of service time.
   5. CFBF is Obsessed with Art Deco Posted: November 20, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6053708)
I assume there was a bitter struggle between the two teams over which would pay MLB's $2 fee for filing trades with the league office.
   6. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 01:56 PM (#6053722)
Trades between the A's and Rays are very rare, IIRC. Probably because the two organizations fancy themselves (and probably are) the "smartest organizations in the majors". So that makes any trade between them very intriguing. Too bad there isn't another player involved.

I seem to remember that the Rays had a rep for only making trades that they won lopsidedly, at least when Friedman was there. Do they still? I mean, this is clearly just a salary dump (the A's on the receiving end of a salary dump!). But still. Whenever they do something I tend to stare at it and try to figure out how they're ripping someone off.
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:07 PM (#6053726)
I seem to remember that the Rays had a rep for only making trades that they won lopsidedly, at least when Friedman was there. Do they still?

Don't know. But if this statement was true (Tampa only makes trades they clearly win) that would actually be a negative for Tampa. It means they make far too few trades, either because they insist on too high a return, or other teams have stopped trading with them. Far better to make a 10% margin on 100 trades than a 30% margin on 10 trades.
   8. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6053727)
Well, they're doing something right, they keep making the playoffs with the lowest payroll in the league.
   9. The Duke Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:19 PM (#6053728)
It’s 100k if you lose someone, but it’s rare to lose someone. Do you charge more or less than 100k? I guess it depends if you think the prospect has any value in trade or on your roster. If it’s surplus, you take anything. If it’s someone you want to keep charge more than 100? I can’t quite get my head around the math.
   10. McCoy Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:39 PM (#6053731)
Well, you can't really make 100 trades plus if you do you're basically trading minor league scrubs. So a 10% margin on 100 scrubs is worth far less than 30% margin on 10 players that go on to be regular major leaguers.
   11. McCoy Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:40 PM (#6053732)
10 Lou Brock trades are far better than 100 shuffling the deck chair trades.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: November 20, 2021 at 02:50 PM (#6053734)
10 Lou Brock trades are far better than 100 shuffling the deck chair trades.

Yeah, and you get like one of those a decade across all of MLB. Holding out for that is going to make you very inactive.
   13. Walt Davis Posted: November 20, 2021 at 04:21 PM (#6053747)
this is clearly just a salary dump

Honeywell has a whopping 8 days of service time. He has no salary to dump. This is the Rays moving a guy off their 40-man roster via sale rather than via rule 5.

#9: If he had any value in trade, they would have traded him. As to money, per's glossary, the current team gets $50 K then, if the rule 5 player doesn't stick, the original team can purchase him back for $25. Presumably you would charge at least $50 K to the A's -- you might be OK with a simple break even either because it's just an easier process or because you're doing the player a favor and think the A's are a better fit or maybe if you're hoping to build a bit of good will with the A's (but just a teensy bit). But mainly I assume you ask for more than $50 K. The A's can now turn around and make him available in the rule 5 draft if they want but presumably they have a spot for him.

[EDIT: grrr, I hate undated web pages. Another page confirms $100 K is the price now. Sorry about that.]

It’s odd the A’s paid cash.

Maybe the A's are paying Cash. :-)

On Rays and trades: they had their Lou Brock with the Chris Archer trade to Pitt for Glasnow and Meadows. Archer got hurt, was reasonably priced but not free and pitched meh (kinda like Broglio) -- it would be a bigger deal for the Rays if Glasnow was healthy (5.5 WAR in 206 IP 2019-21). Archer himself came to them in a very good trade of Matt Garza (solid for the Cubs), a trade the Rays won handily due to all three throw-ins being solid players ... Chirinos (13 WAR but none for TB), Fuld (5 WAR, 0 WAA, mostly for TB) and Guyer (6 WAR, 0 WAA, mostly for TB). FWIW, Chirinos is another guy they sold off.

The 2021 Rays had several players acquired via trade. Adames years ago, traded away this year. Arozarena, Choi, Diaz, Margot, Mejia, Brett Phillips and Wendle on the position player side. Along with Meadows that's 19.9/7.5 WAR/WAA. On the pitching side, other than Glasnow, it's mainly nameless relievers but looks like they added about 4-5 WAR but probably nearly all teams can say that at this point.

So Arozarena is another Brock trade for them so far. He's had 5 WAR in just over a season. Liberatore has been so-so in the minors, was ranked around #50 going into 2021, didn't do anything to move up the list really. There's also a C turning 21 who hasn't had much chance to do anything yet.

Wendle is just one of those Max Muncy types, picked up off the A's at 28, has put up 11 WAR, 6 WAA since. Phillips was picked up in a nothing trade, never hit before but DRS loves (I mean LOVES) his defense so he's been above-average and he's hit a 100 OPS+ for the Rays. Mejia came in the Snell trade. Margot (who costs real $) was picked up for a reliever coming off a phenomenal season who hasn't pitched well since. Diaz was picked up for Bauers and cash in a weird 3-way deal.

I have no idea if that's better than other teams -- almost any team that just won a bunch of games is gonna have a collection of formerly fringe players that had good seasons. The Dodgers (Frideman) have J Turner, Taylor, Hernandez and Muncy to their credit, a collection that even swamps Arozarena/Wendle. The A's just got 3.4 WAR, 2.1 WAA out of Tony Kemp (career 3.4 WAR) for crying out loud.

So what have we learned? The Rays have certainly had a lot of success with fringe trades the last couple of years. Could be luck but maybe if TB says "how about this guy?" you probably want to re-evaluate that guy. I have no qualms if the Cards got Brocked in the Arozarena trade. Possibly also their success is a sign of other teams' failures to develop their useful prospects -- maybe the Royals don't know how to teach guys to hit, the Rays do and can turn Phillips into a 100 OPS guy. And the Rays' love of defense goes back a long way -- that was Fuld's calling card (not to mention Zobrist) after all. Margot in RF and Phillips as Kiermaier's backup seem like overkill but a run saved is as good as a run created. It's probably easier for those sorts of guys to get lost in another team's system and for those teams to be willing to toss them into trades.
   14. McCoy Posted: November 20, 2021 at 06:36 PM (#6053779)
Don't forget about the Zobrist trade. I guess that would be more like the Bagwell trade.

And speaking of Garza they got him in the Young trade and went to the WS.
   15. Walt Davis Posted: November 20, 2021 at 08:15 PM (#6053800)
Zobrist was a long time ago (2006) and hard to conclude they had any real idea what they were getting. He was below-replacement for them in 200 PA in 2006, disastrous for just 100 PA in 2007, average in 225 PA in 2008 ... then 8.6 WAR in 2009 at age 28. They might have seen more in Zobrist than other teams, they might have been better at turning somebody like Zobrist into an average player at 27-28 than other teams ... but that was a miracle.

And for sure Delmon Young (and Brendan Harris!!) for Garza and Jason Bartlett worked out extremely well for the Rays. Back in 2007.

Out of curiosity, I wondered how well Huff (Zobrist) did for Houston. Not very -- 0.2 WAR, -0.6 WAA. Balt them got him, I assume on a multi-year contract based on his playing time. He was nearly replacement level in 2007. Then in 2008, 4.1 WAR. That was followed by a whopping -1.8 WAR in 2009. An FA again, he went to SF ... where he put 5.7 WAR. He was back to replacement level again the next year and done the next year. Overall, four 4-WAR seasons and 31 WAR in about 3200 PA spread across 5 seasons spread across 9 seasons ... and 3600 PA of replacement-level. Gotta be among the more extreme ever ... going from 0.3 WAR to 4.1 to -1.8 to 5.7 to -0.2 over 5 seasons.
   16. Cblau Posted: November 20, 2021 at 09:27 PM (#6053808)
How do cash considerations differ from cash?
   17. mathesond Posted: November 21, 2021 at 12:29 AM (#6053824)
How do cash considerations differ from cash?

I don't believe cash considerations ever won manager of the year :)
   18. McCoy Posted: November 21, 2021 at 07:52 AM (#6053825)
Re 15. Sure but the point is those three trades happened in around a 5 year span. Not once a decade and Archer trade II happened 12 years after the Zobrist trade. That's 4 great trades in 12 years not 30 to 40 years.
   19. McCoy Posted: November 21, 2021 at 10:17 AM (#6053832)
I believe cash considerations aren't guaranteed while cash is. So if player X makes the roster or some such thing we'll give you 300k. If he doesn't you get 10k. Something like that.
   20. Walt Davis Posted: November 21, 2021 at 06:15 PM (#6053897)
#18 ... OK, no argument there. If we want to further that discussion, we'd have to define a "Brock/Bagwell" trade. For example, Brock and Bagwell were recognized as top "prospects" while Zobrist was just a guy. I think it's correct that "just a guy" trades work out pretty miraculously quite often -- Wendle, Zobrist, Donaldson, J Turner, Muncy, Kike Hernandez, Johan Santana (a mircale rule 5 but same difference), Canha (OK, only 10 WAR but a solid player), etc.

The Garza-Archer trade is a "just 3 guys" trade really. Garza was fine for the Cubs (5.7 WAR, 2.8 WAA, leftover trade value) and Garza for Archer (12 WAR, 2 WAA for the Rays) is a pretty standard wins now for wins tomorrow trade. The 2nd big piece in that trade was supposed to be was suppose to be Lee who never made the majors. But Chirinos is (barely) the career WAR leader in that trade but mostly for the Rangers who picked him up from the Rays for cash. The Rays won that trade in a landslide but because of Chirinos, Guyer and Fuld all being good "guys."

Chirinos is kinda amazing. He'd been in the Cubs org so long he'd become a minor-league FA re-signed by the Cubs in 2009 ... to play at A+ at age 25. He finally had his breakout that year and again in 2010, traded in 2011 after 10 years in the Cubs org. Hard to get more "just a guy" than that.

I wouldn't consider Garza-Archer or the Zobrist trade or Jeff Kent back in the day to be a "Brock-Bagwell" trade any more than I think Piazza was a "brilliant draft pick" but that's just terminology. And on the bigger picture I agree with you -- the Rays have a long history of good trades and that the answer to #6 is yes.
   21. sunday silence (again) Posted: November 22, 2021 at 09:16 AM (#6053952)

Yeah, and you get like one of those a decade across all of MLB. Holding out for that is going to make you very inactive.

you constantly contradict yourself. Not 4 posts previously you insisted that it was always better to win a series of marginal trades rather than a Lou Brock type trade.

Then you point out the obvious, that it all depends on how many of each you do.

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