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Thursday, October 24, 2019

Astros Fire Assistant GM Brandon Taubman | SI.com

The statement:

During the past two days, the Astros pro-actively assisted Major League Baseball in interviewing Astros employees as part of MLB’s investigation of the events published in the recent Sports Illustrated article Major League Baseball also separately interviewed members of the media over the past 24 hours,” the team said in a statement on Thursday. “Our initial investigation led us to believe that Brandon Taubman’s inappropriate comments were not directed toward any reporter. We were wrong. We sincerely apologize to Stephanie Apstein, Sports Illustrated and to all individuals who witnessed this incident or were offended by the inappropriate conduct. The Astros in no way intended to minimize the issues related to domestic violence.

“Our initial belief was based on witness statements about the incident. Subsequent interviews have revealed that Taubman’s inappropriate comments, were, in fact, directed toward one or more reporters. Accordingly, we have terminated Brandon Taubman’s employment with the Houston Astros. His conduct does not reflect the values of our organization and we believe this is the most appropriate course of action.

“We are thankful to Major League Baseball and to everyone that cooperated in the investigation. As previously stated, the Astros are very committed to using our voice to create awareness and support on the issue of domestic violence. We fully support MLB and baseball’s stance and values regarding domestic violence. We will continue to make this cause a priority for our organization.

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 24, 2019 at 05:35 PM | 115 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: astros, brandon taubman, jeff luhnow

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   1. asinwreck Posted: October 24, 2019 at 05:57 PM (#5894123)
So, how did the Astros come to write their initial, complete bullshit press release? Who's responsible for that?
   2. The Duke Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:12 PM (#5894124)
The mlb must have signaled horrid sanctions which will now be reduced for having fired him. I suspect they will get a max fine.
   3. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:27 PM (#5894129)
(2) Yeah I'm imagining something like "Fire him and we'll just fine the #### out of you. Don't, and we'll suspend him, Luhnow, and Crane for a loooooong time."
   4. Quaker Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:29 PM (#5894130)
To recap, the guy who actually committed DV was suspended but not fired.

The Mets manager & a pitcher cursed at and directly threatened a reporter. Google says they were fined but not terminated following the incident.

Meanwhile, Taubman loses his job.

In a sane world, punishments would actually align with offenses, but that's not the world we live in.

   5. The Duke Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:45 PM (#5894135)
If you haven’t been looking around lately, it’s not a sane world
   6. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:48 PM (#5894137)
An immediate suspension would have probably satisfied enough people to be the end of it. But not at this point.

I'd say it's almost unfair to Taubman, but it sure sounds like he lied to the team about what happened, giving the Astros a plausible defense for their inaction and Taubman much less of an argument for keeping his job.
   7. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:55 PM (#5894142)
Meanwhile, Taubman loses his job.

In a sane world, punishments would actually align with offenses, but that's not the world we live in.


Like snapper was saying yesterday (I read some of the thread but did not post), Taubman is most likely imminently replaceable. Osuna is not Gerrit Cole, but he he is a pretty good young reliever who is on a good contract (he is arb-eligible in 2020). That may not be "sane" to you, but it is just the reality of the talent allocations and spectra that the two guys are on, which is why most people (me included) need to avoid doing really stupid shitt at/related to work.
   8. The Duke Posted: October 24, 2019 at 07:04 PM (#5894147)
It’s always the cover-up, not the crime that does people in
   9. Quaker Posted: October 24, 2019 at 07:06 PM (#5894149)
I still contend this is much ado about nothing, and I don't think a guy should lose his career over these sorts of comments, particularly if it's a first offense. But I guess everyone in the other thread got their wish, so congrats.
   10. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 07:21 PM (#5894155)

I still contend this is much ado about nothing, and I don't think a guy should lose his career over these sorts of comments, particularly if it's a first offense. But I guess everyone in the other thread got their wish, so congrats.

I don't think it's much ado about nothing, but I didn't necessarily think he should be fired for the comments alone (and the reporter who first wrote about it was not asking for him to be fired). However, if he lied to the team about what happened, firing seems appropriate.
   11. Srul Itza At Home Posted: October 24, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5894163)
He deliberately taunted a group of woman reporters about a matter related to domestic violence, always a touchy subject.

He did so for no particular reason, and in response to no immediate provocation, but instead at a time when the issue was not in front of anyone, thus re-opening a wound that was in the process of scabbing over.

He did so in a particularly offensive and obvious manner, dropping f-bombs and repeating it six times.

He did so at a time when the eyes of the baseball world were squarely on his team, at a moment which should have been wholly celebratory, creating a completely predictable and embarrassing distraction.

He then compounded all of the above by lying, or supporting a lie, about the incident, making his team look even worse, and making other people complicit in his actions.

You might hold that any one of those was not a fire-able offense, but taken together -- and in the context of a business whose product is essentially entertainment, nostalgia and good will -- they more than justified termination.
   12. depletion Posted: October 24, 2019 at 07:58 PM (#5894171)
I have to agree that he may have lied to his boss about the incident. Otherwise, fining him the rest of the year’s pay, or something along those lines might have been the response. Lying to your boss is almost always a terrible idea. The reason he’s your boss is probably that he’s smarter than you. His job is hard, harder than yours. And it gets much harder if the peons who work for him lie to him after they make a mistake. Police said alcohol may have been involved.
   13. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:30 PM (#5894183)
Chandler Rome @Chandler_Rome
Jeff Luhnow said he has not reached out to any of the women to whom Brandon Taubman directed his tirade. He said he plans to.

Chandler Rome @Chandler_Rome
Jeff Luhnow on why: “I have been traveling up here. I had to have a pretty tough conversation this morning with someone that’s worked with me for a long time. But I will, as soon as I can.”
Sports Illustrated’s Stephanie Apstein was among the reporters at the news conference


Chelsea Janes @chelsea_janes
Luhnow said it was “devastating” to learn what really happened. “I wouldn’t wish it on anyone in this room, just like I wouldn’t wish it on anyone in this room to sit up here and answer these questions either.”

Bill Shaikin @BillShaikin
Three days and four statements later, Luhnow finally faces the media and ... asks for sympathy? Poor Jeff Luhnow.


Chandler Rome @Chandler_Rome
Jeff Luhnow: “This is not endemic. This is not a cultural issue.”
   14. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5894187)
It’s always the cover-up, not the crime that does people in


Well, not always. I mean, for Ted Bundy, say, it was the crime(s).
   15. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5894188)
He did so in a particularly offensive and obvious manner, dropping f-bombs and repeating it six times.


But it was his first offense!
   16. SoSH U at work Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5894189)
Hell yeah, Luhnow needs sympathy. I don't think people realize how difficult it is to fire someone when you can't figure out what he did wrong.

   17. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:40 PM (#5894190)
The reason he’s your boss is probably that he’s smarter than you.


You & I have never worked in the same places at the same time, I see.
   18. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 24, 2019 at 08:43 PM (#5894193)
If you're at or near the bottom of the hierarchy then your boss is probably dumber than you (because their job sucks even worse than yours). Above middle management, though, your boss almost certainly is smarter than you, or at least just as smart and more experienced.
   19. depletion Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:17 PM (#5894213)
gef, I am your boss. Now stop wasting time on this pointless board and get back to work.
   20. Bhaakon Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:25 PM (#5894216)
In a sane world, punishments would actually align with offenses, but that's not the world we live in.


Well, that really depends on the goal. If the goal is equality and fairness, then yes. If the goal is to actually dissuade people from repeating the behavior, then each future offense merely demonstrates that the previous punishment was insufficient and must be surpassed.
   21. JRVJ Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:35 PM (#5894218)
I would not be surprised if Taubman is quietly hired as a consultant or some such by the Astros during the off-season.
   22. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 24, 2019 at 09:54 PM (#5894222)
Or by the Cardinals, so they can pick his brain about the Astros' proprietary knowledge. :)
   23. Hank Gillette Posted: October 24, 2019 at 10:17 PM (#5894233)
He did so in a particularly offensive and obvious manner, dropping f-bombs and repeating it six times.


But it was his first offense!


And his second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth.
   24. base ball chick Posted: October 24, 2019 at 10:52 PM (#5894251)
The Duke Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:12 PM (#5894124)
- The mlb must have signaled horrid sanctions which will now be reduced for having fired him. I suspect they will get a max fine.

snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:27 PM (#5894129)
- Yeah I'm imagining something like "Fire him and we'll just fine the #### out of you. Don't, and we'll suspend him, Luhnow, and Crane for a loooooong time."


- especially because this complete buttmunch made the team look REALLY BAD during the world freaking series

and there is NO way that this creep is not representative of the FO culture, or did something so "out of character" - it IS his character

- it's times like now that i wish i didn't have a firm policy of using good manners at all times because i sure would love to talk to a few friends of mine for some gossip. if you know who ah mean., and ah think yew do


Quaker Posted: October 24, 2019 at 06:29 PM (#5894130)

To recap, the guy who actually committed DV was suspended but not fired


- agree that males who are women beaters shouldn't be playing mlb. beating up a woman should have the same penalty as betting on baseball
   25. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: October 25, 2019 at 01:03 AM (#5894270)
Gold Wife and I both have worked crisis comms situations - and we're aghast, professionally, at the Astros' insistence on laying out rakes they can step on. Luhnow's presser today was a butt-naked disaster.
   26. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:32 AM (#5894277)
The reason he’s your boss is probably that he’s smarter than you. His job is hard, harder than yours.

You... You've never had a boss before, have you?
   27. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:33 AM (#5894278)
Gold Wife and I both have worked crisis comms situations - and we're aghast, professionally, at the Astros' insistence on laying out rakes they can step on. Luhnow's presser today was a butt-naked disaster.

It's insane. It's like they can't figure out how not to pee in their own boots.
   28. JAHV Posted: October 25, 2019 at 04:20 AM (#5894285)
It's insane. It's like they can't figure out how not to pee in their own boots.


Luhnow's quotes remind me of my old boss, whom I would describe as an alien wearing human skin who was given a half hour crash course on proper social interaction and empathy on the way down to earth. You can see that he knows it's necessary to say things in a situation like this, but he's not quite sure why.
   29. Bug Selig Posted: October 25, 2019 at 06:55 AM (#5894291)
I don't think a guy should lose his career over these sorts of comments, particularly if it's a first offense.
He hasn't.
   30. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 08:08 AM (#5894297)
agree that males who are women beaters shouldn't be playing mlb. beating up a woman should have the same penalty as betting on baseball


There's something to be said for that, especially in today's sports culture that essentially corrupts the populace by leading them to rally around their team's woman-beaters (and other criminals). When sports is actually a corrupting influence (*), rather than a teaching influence, special measures are probably necessary.

OTOH, we always have to allow for the possibility of growth, rehabilitation, and redemption(**), particularly when we're talking about people in their early 20s. Automatically taking away their livelihoods probably isn't the best path to these important things, particularly if the perpetrator is truly remorseful, takes real (not agent fake) responsibility for their actions, and commits to real (not agent fake) change. Some, not all, woman-beaters could be redeemed and I wouldn't necessarily want to write off each and every one.(***)

(*) Taubman himself is an example of this corrupting culture, having been plainly corrupted by it.

(**) Even if today's gross and icky and juvenile Twitter culture doesn't. The adults need to take charge and marginalize those fanatic weirdos.

(***) I have no idea where Osuna would fit within this framework.
   31. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5894300)
   32. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:14 AM (#5894308)
- agree that males who are women beaters shouldn't be playing mlb. beating up a woman should have the same penalty as betting on baseball

I can see your point, but the issue is going to be what's the burden of proof. Right now, it's very low. It's basically any credible accusation. Not conviction, not indictment. There's not even a hearing with witnesses.

If you went to a "death penalty" for the guy's career, the union isn't going to accept that, nor should they. You very well might end up in a situation where the paper penalty is harsh, but literally no one actually gets punished.
   33. Blastin Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:22 AM (#5894309)
They have also shown in various studies that if a man loses his entire career because of DV, it becomes more dangerous for the partner in the time after.

HOWEVER, definitely as severe a punishment as PEDs. Like, the postseason ineligiblity would be an easy fix. Then they're just toxic and not all that useful. But the partner isn't suddenly with a guy who is the same but also without a paycheck.

So I think "games played based on severity of offense and ineligible for the postseason" would curtail the Chapman/Osuna "depressed asset" stuff.
   34. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:30 AM (#5894312)
I can see your point, but the issue is going to be what's the burden of proof. Right now, it's very low. It's basically any credible accusation. Not conviction, not indictment. There's not even a hearing with witnesses.

If you went to a "death penalty" for the guy's career, the union isn't going to accept that, nor should they. You very well might end up in a situation where the paper penalty is harsh, but literally no one actually gets punished.


The second issue resonates more than the first - yes, unions are duty-bound to defend members and whether it's the MLBPA or IBEW, they'd insist on more than just an accusation and some kind process (and likely wouldn't go for one and done).

The first issue, though - I honestly don't see as an issue in the case of a major league baseball player.... I.e., what would the motivation be for a false accusation? Anything other than money? Well... if a false accusation undercuts the lucrative earning potential, it eliminates the only logical reason someone would make a false accusation in my mind.
   35. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5894317)
"pro-actively assisted".

What a bunch of ########.
   36. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:39 AM (#5894318)
Taubman didn't lose his career, he lost a job.

If the consequences of his cretin behavior cost him his career, he has no one but himself to blame.

I thought the right was about taking responsibility for your actions.


   37. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:41 AM (#5894319)
I thought the right was about taking responsibility for your actions.

I'm about as far right as you get on BBTF, and I've been calling for his firing for days.
   38. Blastin Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:41 AM (#5894320)
I just really hate the "hey I have a wife and child so i cannot be bad man" part of his terrible apology the most, as well as the team saying they gave all of 300 grand to charities to show they care.

Like, come on, people. How is the org so bad at PR?

Hubris indeed.
   39. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:43 AM (#5894322)
I'm about as far right as you get on BBTF

But you don't fit easily on the political spectrum.
   40. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:44 AM (#5894323)
But you don't fit easily on the political spectrum.


He wasn't calling for the guy's firing based on the "political" content of what he did, like the woke-ites are. You don't have to get into the nobility of the purple bracelet stuff to think the guy should be shitcanned.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5894326)
But you don't fit easily on the political spectrum.

No, I don't. My economic views virtually don't exist in the modern political context.
   42. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5894333)
My economic views virtually don't exist in the modern political context.


They exist; they just don't have very many proponents among current US political office-seekers. There aren't many centrist, rational, humanist liberals in 2019 either -- but rational, humanist centrist liberalism as a political philosophy very much exists.
   43. rpackrat Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5894359)
He is bad for PR and, just as important, he is a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen. I don't blame an employer for not wanting him around.
   44. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:33 AM (#5894365)
No, I don't. My economic views virtually don't exist in the modern political context.


Not to go all OTP, and forgive me if I am misremembering your views, but don't they align pretty closely with the current occupant of the White House?
   45. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:39 AM (#5894367)
They have also shown in various studies that if a man loses his entire career because of DV, it becomes more dangerous for the partner in the time after.

I'm guessing it also makes the partner less likely to report the DV -- like maybe you just want a restraining order to keep the guy away, but you don't want to lose your primary source of child support, etc.
   46. JAHV Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5894369)
as well as the team saying they gave all of 300 grand to charities to show they care.


I don't even think this is true, if I remember the quote correctly. Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but I think the quote was that they RAISED $300 thousand for charity. It wasn't even their own money, at least not all of it.
   47. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:53 AM (#5894377)
Snapper can better explain his own view, but my impression is that he's sort of a libertarian that ALSO thinks the government should have a swift and strong hand in breaking up organizations that get too large or powerful. I think he thinks that laissez-faire economics works best on small scale, within limited communities and such, but that it's a disaster writ large. It just doesn't fit on the socialist-capitalist spectrum at all.
   48. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:56 AM (#5894379)

The first issue, though - I honestly don't see as an issue in the case of a major league baseball player.... I.e., what would the motivation be for a false accusation? Anything other than money? Well... if a false accusation undercuts the lucrative earning potential, it eliminates the only logical reason someone would make a false accusation in my mind.

I don't know, if it's a guy who's already made $50 million, you probably won't care that it hurts his future earnings potential.

And while I think false accusations are very rare, there could be other motivations besides money.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5894380)
I don't even think this is true, if I remember the quote correctly. Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but I think the quote was that they RAISED $300 thousand for charity. It wasn't even their own money, at least not all of it.


That was one quote, but other references seemed to suggest it was their money.
   50. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5894381)
He is bad for PR and, just as important, he is a sexual harassment lawsuit waiting to happen. I don't blame an employer for not wanting him around.


Exactly. He's a risk not only for his own workplace, but also for the workplaces of the guests of his employer. SI managers could theoretically be on the hook if they didn't respond adequately to Taubman's (at least) bullying and hostility toward its employees.
   51. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:11 AM (#5894389)
Snapper can better explain his own view, but my impression is that he's sort of a libertarian that ALSO thinks the government should have a swift and strong hand in breaking up organizations that get too large or powerful. I think he thinks that laissez-faire economics works best on small scale, within limited communities and such, but that it's a disaster writ large. It just doesn't fit on the socialist-capitalist spectrum at all.


Um, no.

He's not a libertarian and what you've described is ALSO not any sort of libertarian.... I can summon David to clarify if you wish.
   52. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:11 AM (#5894391)
Snapper can better explain his own view, but my impression is that he's sort of a libertarian that ALSO thinks the government should have a swift and strong hand in breaking up organizations that get too large or powerful. I think he thinks that laissez-faire economics works best on small scale, within limited communities and such, but that it's a disaster writ large. It just doesn't fit on the socialist-capitalist spectrum at all.


OK. I mainly recall him being pro-tarriff in order to bring jobs back.
   53. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:14 AM (#5894396)
Not to go all OTP, and forgive me if I am misremembering your views, but don't they align pretty closely with the current occupant of the White House?

Not really. He's fairly close to me on trade, but he's massively pro-big business, and I'm massively anti-big-business. I basically wouldn't let any business with more than 10-20% market share exist very long. I'd favor hugely aggressive anti-trust enforcement, and highly progressive corporate taxes.

Virtually ever top Financial and Technology company in the U.S. has serious monopoly/oligopoly power, and should either be broken up, or regulated as a utility.

At the end of the day I'm a distributist, a school of thought which follows closely from Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum. Completely anti-socialist, but extremely pro-worker and small business.
   54. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5894400)
I could see distributism actually gaining adherents someday. It's the natural compromise endpoint with the country's growing socialist movement, which (rightly) bemoans the social implications of wage dependency. The way you cure that is by turning a bunch of wage earners back into yeoman, albeit not yeoman farmers as in Jeffersonian pre-industrial times, and the way you do that is by breaking up big business wherever possible. The country never should have allowed things like Wal-Mart putting a bunch of small businesspeople out of business. Whatever was gained in "efficiency" was lost in the social costs of wage dependency and the loss of yeoman spirit and outlook. An independent businessperson, by the very nature of their trade, has a different and better outlook on the world than a wage slave.
   55. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5894403)
Um, no.

He's not a libertarian and what you've described is ALSO not any sort of libertarian.... I can summon David to clarify if you wish.


That's correct. Most libertarianism is foolish, just like all the "enlightenment" thinking evolving from musings on the "State of Nature". Every philosophy that emerges from the idea that society and government were created by a bunch of autonomous individuals agreeing to give up their unlimited freedom, is bunk.

Individuals do not exist a priori. Society did not evolve from unattached individuals. Every single person in history was born into a family, and community, with valid claims on, and responsibilities to, that family and community.

The place I concur with Libertarianism is that I generally think the Gov't should leave people alone, unless there is a compelling reason to regulate.
   56. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5894404)
He's not a libertarian and what you've described is ALSO not any sort of libertarian


It's not anything easily identifiable in modern political debate. It has elements of libertarian and of socialist, and elements that are wildly opposed to each of those two wildly opposed philosophies.
   57. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5894411)
extremely pro-worker and small business.
...right up until the minute you step into a voting booth!

Yeah, yeah, I know. I just have to every now and then.
   58. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5894416)
Yeah, yeah, I know. I just have to every now and then.

I only get to choose between the options presented. I find creeping socialism more anti-worker and small-business than predatory capitalism. They both suck, but the latter is easier to get rid of without bloodshed.
   59. Lassus Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5894417)
I can summon David to clarify if you wish.

Like a demon? You really did make this sound rather frightening.
   60. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5894419)
I find creeping socialism
If you find "creeping socialism" anywhere in the U.S., you're more of an ideologue than I thought.
   61. Esoteric Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5894421)
so we're getting to the point where this thread should be shut down. no politics.

btw *i* am probably as far to the right as Primer gets (seriously), but this really, really needs to remain a no-politics place. politics is garbage and there are many better places to debate it than here.
   62. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:35 AM (#5894423)
If you find "creeping socialism" anywhere in the U.S., you're more of an ideologue than I thought.

Gov't taking over the medical insurance industry? The Green New Deal?

The Progressive wing of the Democratic party is now open in its fondness for socialism.

   63. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5894425)
so we're getting to the point where this thread should be shut down. no politics.

I'll stop.
   64. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5894426)
If you find "creeping socialism" anywhere in the U.S., you're more of an ideologue than I thought.


Socialism's appeal in the US is obviously growing, beyond any serious doubt. Whether that makes it "creeping" or not is, one supposes, up to the beholder.
   65. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5894427)
Clearly you two need more Baby Shark in your lives.
   66. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:43 AM (#5894431)
o we're getting to the point where this thread should be shut down. no politics.


Except it isn't no politics. The Taubman issue is political by nature, and became political discussion. The women's soccer thread this summer became a wokefest in favor of all the political issues raised by the USWMT. If the wokefest shuts down, then and only then will it be no politics. But they're unable to stop, so it never will.



   67. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5894433)
I'd like it if we had a cordoned off politics place on the site, but get why we don't.
   68. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:47 AM (#5894434)
Gov't taking over the medical insurance industry?
Oh dear. I mean...you seem to be at least someone who is open to facts and reality. You can't seriously believe this.

Yeah, let's just stop.
   69. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5894436)
Yeah, let's just stop.


Then the threads about "equal pay" for the women's soccer team will stop? And threads like the Taubman thread and all the political commentary therein will stop?

Yeah, good luck with that.
   70. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5894441)
Then the threads about "equal pay" for the women's soccer team will stop? And threads like the Taubman thread and all the political commentary therein will stop?
Not saying anything about that. I'm saying that this particular conversation should stop, because it's not going to go anywhere productive if one thinks that the government has actually taken over (or is taking over) the medical insurance industry. I could, for example, provide links to the many, many non-government providers of medical insurance, but I'm assuming that's been tried before. So, back to the Astros.
   71. Sunday silence Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:57 AM (#5894445)
[ ] Astros players wear support for victims of Domestic Violence in Game 3
..[ ] Nats players join them.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 11:58 AM (#5894447)
because it's not going to go anywhere productive if one thinks that the government has actually taken over (or is taking over) the medical insurance industry.

It's the announced plan of major Presidential candidates.
   73. Sunday silence Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5894449)
Every single person in history was born into a family, and community,


Romulus and Remus say: "Ciao!"
   74. . Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5894451)
I'm saying that this particular conversation should stop, because it's not going to go anywhere productive if one thinks that the government has actually taken over (or is taking over) the medical insurance industry.


One could easily argue the same thing about a bunch of woketry that gets routinely posted here.
   75. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5894454)
I find this thread to be far less rancorous if you have the appropriate [Ignored Comment]s in place... but to each his own.
   76. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5894457)

Romulus and Remus say: "Ciao!"


Shouldn't that be Ave! or Salve!

And wolves are people too!
   77. PreservedFish Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5894475)
What about Victor of Aveyron?
   78. Cris E Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:46 PM (#5894483)
“Astros GM Jeff Luhnow was asked whether he had personally reached out to @stephapstein to apologize. Luhnow said he’s been busy and hasn’t had the time. Stephanie was sitting in the room.”

Yeah, but all the way over there, near the back.
   79. Cris E Posted: October 25, 2019 at 12:56 PM (#5894486)
I would like to fully endorse #11 as a pretty good list of the reasons this is based in business and not Justice! The organization doesn't need to agree with (or even understand why) their customers believe anything, but as an entertainment company trying to sell millions of tickets they need to react to it.
   80. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 01:48 PM (#5894517)

AFAIK political discussions aren't banned. Off-topic political discussions are banned. Enforcement is a bit arbitrary, but practically speaking even the latter are usually left alone as long as they're civil.
   81. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 25, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5894520)
He's fairly close to me on trade

You like creating new tariffs depending on who you are angry about?
   82. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:00 PM (#5894524)
(deleted comment as per requests above.)
   83. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5894527)
but practically speaking even the latter are usually left alone as long as they're civil.


You mean cival, don't you?
   84. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:06 PM (#5894529)
I used to be a far more lukewarm free trader than I am today - but we have 3+ years of data now... and the data says that isolationism simply does not work. Unless you want to argue that manufacturing data would be even worse, I guess - the numbers have shown pretty conclusively it's a fool's errand to think you can preserve jobs doomed to automation.

What's worse - the agricultural impact (and most of those dying mill towns are surrounded by plenty of farms) has lapped the losses several times over.

I still support trade policy that seeks to export labor rights abroad, as well as environmentalism... but as a job saver/creater? It's a failure.
   85. Greg Pope Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:43 PM (#5894544)
Enforcement is a bit arbitrary, but practically speaking even the latter are usually left alone as long as they're civil.

I'd agree. People stating their opinions and/or positions seems to work out OK. It's when people try to convince others to change their positions that it really degrades. Or the name-calling starts. Or SBB shows up. So this thread ticks one of those boxes, but if you ignore his posts, then so far I think we're fine.
   86. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5894551)
politics is garbage and there are many better places to debate it than here.

Name 3.

I mean I can sort of understand if you just want to "stick to sports" and keep "politics out of it." But if you think there are places that actually do political discourse better than the group of commentators here (at least used to)... then you need to readjust your medication. You are either taking far too much, or not nearly enough.
   87. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:52 PM (#5894553)
I'd like it if we had a cordoned off politics place on the site, but get why we don't.

I mean, I might know a place where the exiles of old OTP congregate to continue their dark, satanic conversations about politics... if you want I could discordially invite you.
   88. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5894554)
And wolves are people too!

I don't know about people, but they definitely have a family, and a community.
   89. Moeball Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5894557)
Sorry to interrupt the OTP discussion by getting back to talking about the Astros but, seriously, are they hiring FO people based on recommendations from the Dallas Mavericks? Too soon?

You may now return to your regularly scheduled OTP programming. BTW, whatever happened to Ray or Sam? Haven't heard anything from them in forever. Did they just quit?
   90. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5894561)

Sam might have been banned, I don't recall.

I think Ray basically left with the OTP thread. He showed up to the BBTF softball game in August, though.
   91. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5894562)
I mean, I might know a place where the exiles of old OTP congregate to continue their dark, satanic conversations about politics... if you want I could discordially invite you.


If it's tempting -- you can #### there!

Double-edged sword - harder to Albright someone.... but - it's always fun to embed GIFs... I have a fine selection of broken hinges you can borrow.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled OTP programming. BTW, whatever happened to Ray or Sam? Haven't heard anything from them in forever. Did they just quit?


Sam got banned (he's on the island of misfit toys with the rest of us regularly though)... Ray is the straw that stirs the drink over yonger...
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5894563)
BTW, whatever happened to Ray or Sam? Haven't heard anything from them in forever. Did they just quit?

Sam was banned. Ray just drifted away. Saw him at the softball game, he's fine.
   93. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5894577)
Ray is indeed doing well (still very much being Ray though). I don't think I am stepping out of bounds, If I say he is now apparently engaged.
   94. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:41 PM (#5894578)
if you want I could discordially invite you.


Is that an app? it's not a website, is it?
   95. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:41 PM (#5894579)
It's a lot harder for Ray to be the center of attention in a no-politics zone, which apparently defeats the purpose of posting in his case.
   96. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:42 PM (#5894580)
Is that an app? it's not a website, is it?


A message board is one facet of its functions.
   97. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:42 PM (#5894581)
Is that an app? it's not a website, is it?


Both... Easier to use on a smartphone or tablet via the app - but I use the web version on my laptop.
   98. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:52 PM (#5894592)
What did Sam do to get banned?
   99. Moeball Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5894597)
Really - what does it take to get banned from here?

Surprised to hear about Ray's engagement. I guess another MGTOW falls from the ranks.
   100. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 25, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5894598)
What did Sam do to get banned?

I'm having a hard time recalling. Someone got banned for racism, but I think that was Yankee Redneck.
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