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Monday, January 13, 2020

Astros’ Jeff Luhnow, AJ Hinch suspended for 2020 | MLB.com

Wow1

Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch have each been suspended without pay for the 2020 season by Major League Baseball, which on Monday released the findings from its investigation into Houston’s sign-stealing allegations.

Houston also forfeits its first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 MLB Drafts as part of the penalties. In addition, the Astros were fined $5 million, which is the highest allowable fine under the Major League Constitution.

In addition, former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman, who was dismissed by the club in October after he made offensive and insensitive comments directed at a group of female reporters at the conclusion of the American League Championship Series, has been suspended for one year. Taubman, who is currently not employed by a Major League club, will not be able to work in baseball during that time.

The suspensions of Luhnow, Hinch and Taubman are to begin immediately, ending on the day following the completion of the 2020 World Series.

Jim Furtado Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:09 PM | 257 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: a.j. hinch, astros, jeff luhnow

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   1. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:13 PM (#5915148)
Daaaaaammmmmmn!
   2. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:13 PM (#5915149)
and from Jess Passan's twitter:
No players were disciplined by Major League Baseball in the Astros' investigation. While Mets manager Carlos Beltran was part of it, he was a player at the time and thus was not suspended.

Discipline for Red Sox manager Alex Cora is coming. It is going to be harsh, per sources.
   3. Rusty Priske Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:15 PM (#5915151)
The suspensions are one thing, but the draft picks? Wow. Back-breaking.
   4. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:16 PM (#5915153)
Not my team, so the biggest part of me is just doing a Nelson Muntzian ha-HA....

But this seems.... pretty harsh.
   5. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:16 PM (#5915154)
The title was never going to be stripped.

The first round picks for TWO years is a lot. Cora is ###### too.

Is... Taubman still so ####### glad they got Osuna or no?
   6. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:16 PM (#5915156)
Twitter seems almost evenly divided between "Wow, good for MLB for dropping the hammer" and "Well if that's all it costs to win a World Series everybody should start doing it". I lean toward the former. Basically, MLB could have done a hand slap or they could have done a real punishment. This is clearly the latter, if arguably on the light side of that (and really, even that's a fairly hard argument: the thing that jumped out at me as being too light was the $5 million, but if that's the max allowable, then that's the max allowable).
   7. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:18 PM (#5915159)
Alex Cora would seem to be next. Cora reportedly was involved in the Astros 2017 scheme, the Red Sox 2018 Apple Watch shenanigans, as well as Boston’s unauthorized access to & use of in-game video. That’s 3 strikes, so he seems likely to get the same 1-year suspension that Luhnow & Hinch received. The Red Sox probably get fined, too, but to really deter future violations, MLB should ban beer sales at Fenway Park for a year.
   8. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:18 PM (#5915160)
IDK.... the whole "vacating a title" thing has always seemed pretty stupid to me. It's stupid when the NCAA does, it would be stupid if a professional league does it.
   9. The_Ex Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:19 PM (#5915161)
How much of this was for the incident and how much for the Astros being dicks? The commissioner refers to both issues in the report but doesn't split the suspension.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:20 PM (#5915162)
the Red Sox Apple Watch shenanigans in 2018


And they should have gotten more than a slap on the wrist (if they even got that) for that.
   11. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:20 PM (#5915163)
I'm glad to see them get harshly punished.

But flags fly forever.
   12. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:20 PM (#5915164)
I haven't been following the details of this drama, but was the GM involved in this? Banging trash cans sounds like the sort of thing that office workers might not know about.

Why no player suspensions? They were the ones hitting the curve balls. Is it just "if the Astros had to play their AAA squad for a year, Houston would riot?"
   13. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:21 PM (#5915165)
IDK.... the whole "vacating a title" thing has always seemed pretty stupid to me. It's stupid when the NCAA does, it would be stupid if a professional league does it.


Agree completely. Same as with guys who used steroids. History really happened. And it's not like it puts the Astros in the free and clear. Folks are going to remember that the 2017 Astros cheated their way to a World Series title for a long, long time.
   14. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:24 PM (#5915168)
Also worth noting:
MLB said in its statement that if Luhnow or Hinch "engage in any future material violations" of MLB rules, they will be placed on the league's permanently ineligible list.
That’s significant.
   15. The Duke Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5915169)
Justice handed out fairly. Well done, MLB
   16. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5915170)
Why no player suspensions? They were the ones hitting the curve balls.


They just don't want a fight with the union. Also it does seem to be about the culture and that's a management issue.
   17. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5915172)
Not a great week for Houston sports.
   18. reech Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5915173)
Whether or not it is perceived as a harsh penalty, I get the feeling that this and if Cora gets a year suspension is also a warning salvo from Manfred- the next penalties will be that much harsher-
   19. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:26 PM (#5915174)
Why no player suspensions? They were the ones hitting the curve balls. Is it just "if the Astros had to play their AAA squad for a year, Houston would riot?"
The players didn’t implement the scheme, and couldn’t have without the teams’ top officials involvement. The players are also covered by a CBA that makes their discipline considerably more complicated.
   20. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:27 PM (#5915177)
this and if Cora gets a year suspension


He might get longer considering the report says he was intimately involved and then TOOK IT WITH HIM.
   21. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:28 PM (#5915179)
Stoked to see Hinch and Luhnow suspended for this. I would probably have given Hinch three years, but I'm ok with one.
   22. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:30 PM (#5915180)
...I mean what's stopping them from just firing those guys on top of that, anyway?
   23. Rally Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:31 PM (#5915181)
It's stupid when the NCAA does, it would be stupid if a professional league does it.


100% agree. Especially as a fan of the Louisville Cardinals, always and forever NCAA champs no matter what the NCAA says.

It will be interesting to see how well this is enforced. Easy for Hinch I suppose, he won't be at the ballpark and somebody else will have to make out the lineups and pitching changes. More difficult for Luhnow. Assuming Jim Crane values him and intends to have him run the team going forward, is MLB going to be bugging phones to make sure Crane doesn't get Luhnow's input before signing off on major player moves or extensions?
   24. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5915183)
I haven't been following the details of this drama, but was the GM involved in this? Banging trash cans sounds like the sort of thing that office workers might not know about.

Why no player suspensions? They were the ones hitting the curve balls. Is it just "if the Astros had to play their AAA squad for a year, Houston would riot?"


It's probably impossible to prove the GM was involved or not. I approve of making them responsible for team misconduct that involves a large group of their employees. They should be held to a standard higher than non-participant in long term, rampant rule breaking.

As to the latter, I assume it is because the players are protected by the CBA which means the league would need to meet higher standards of proof to punish them. Plus, you can accomplish the same thing without holding a trial by punishing the managers and GMs (which I guess reinforces the first point).
   25. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:34 PM (#5915184)
Assuming Jim Crane values him and intends to have him run the team going forward


The only thing Crane values is money, and Luhnow is probably a financial liability now.
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:35 PM (#5915185)
Assuming Jim Crane values him and intends to have him run the team going forward, is MLB going to be bugging phones to make sure Crane doesn't get Luhnow's input before signing off on major player moves or extensions?


Chris Correa is ready and willing to help MLB any way he can.

   27. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:36 PM (#5915186)
More difficult for Luhnow. Assuming Jim Crane values him and intends to have him run the team going forward, is MLB going to be bugging phones to make sure Crane doesn't get Luhnow's input before signing off on major player moves or extensions?
Hard to believe that Crane could value Luhnow’s input so highly that he would risk the draconian punishments that would likely result if he was caught. Luhnow would be risking a permanent ban, so I also doubt he’d be interested.
   28. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:40 PM (#5915189)
The players didn’t implement the scheme, and couldn’t have without the teams’ top officials involvement. The players are also covered by a CBA that makes their discipline considerably more complicated.

according to Passan's twitter, it was ENTIRELY player-driven (along w/Cora). Hinch showed his disapproval by TWICE damaging the monitor
   29. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:41 PM (#5915191)
Are they forcing the team to call it Enron Field again, too?
   30. . . . . . . Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:41 PM (#5915192)
This is significantly harsher than I expected. Good on MLB.
   31. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:41 PM (#5915193)
As to the appropriateness of the Astros punishment: Harsh, but fair. Had to be done.
   32. Alex Vila Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5915195)
Chris Correa is ready and willing to help MLB any way he can.

I read this as "Chick Corea is ready...", and my immediate thought was, "A Jazz man? That's thinking outside the box!
   33. Kiko Sakata Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:43 PM (#5915196)
according to Passan's twitter, it was ENTIRELY player-driven (along w/Cora)


If that's true, then the lack of player punishments is a big problem. Is it even obvious that the union would go to bat for any suspended Astros players? This scheme would have hurt at least as many MLBPA members (the pitchers on other teams getting rocked, those pitchers' teammates) as it helped.
   34. . Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5915198)
MLB said in its statement that if Luhnow or Hinch "engage in any future material violations" of MLB rules, they will be placed on the league's permanently ineligible list.


It wouldn't have been an affront to baseball justice if they'd been put on that list now.

100% agree. Especially as a fan of the Louisville Cardinals, always and forever NCAA champs no matter what the NCAA says.


Actually, no, they're not (*) -- and this is a perfect example of what I was talking about with Lisa and others in whatever thread that was when I noted that big-time American sports net-net are corrupting of the populace.

(*) Well, for 1980 and 1986 they are, and hearty congratulations to them, but there's no sense in which they are for 2013.
   35. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5915199)
bad link--corrected below
   36. villageidiom Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5915200)
The Red Sox probably get fined, too, but to really deter future violations, MLB should ban beer sales at Fenway Park for a year.
So from now on they're only going to sell Budweiser?
   37. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:45 PM (#5915201)
It must be said, again, repeatedly, but: I'M SO GLAD TAUBMAN GOT BANNED FROM BASEBALL. I'M SO GLAD TAUBMAN GOT BANNED FROM BASEBALL. I'M SO ####### GLAD TAUBMAN GOT BANNED FROM BASEBALL.
   38. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5915202)
The commissioner's
statement re: Hinch
   39. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:47 PM (#5915204)
. . . according to Passan's twitter, it was ENTIRELY player-driven (along w/Cora).
The players don’t control the video feed, the scheme was implemented because team officials decided to do it.
   40. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:51 PM (#5915205)
The MLB website has Manfred’s 9-Page Statement.
   41. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:52 PM (#5915206)
when i last blogged, the astros slogan was "root for the good guys". they come a long way baby and not in the right direction

of course, ed wade was still running things and it's not like he was a good guy, but he makes this lot look like angels. not the california kind neither

i am also very unsurprised that mlb decided that the owner was as innocent and unknowing about the perfidy as a newborn baby. he's got a bad history his own self, not that nobody cared. i was unsurprised he hired luhnow - there was a good reason that mozeliak didn't want him no mo, and unsurprised that a shtttt like taubman was his petsy-poo

very funny that they needed to ban taubman. like any other club would have anything to do with him

the fine is pocket change to a billionaire. removing the first 2 picks is not good - see 2007. of course, the rest of their picks were awful and the 3 who later reached the majors didn't sign with the astros in the first place... things sure have changed since 2006 when an owner/GM decided thast there was no reason to spend any sort of money on unproven young players (which is why the astros farm system crashed and burned. the owner was furious that the GM spend over a million bucks to sign chris burke, who later became a ML player and would have been a heck of a lot more useful had he not been kept in the minors for 3 years too long so as the owner could play biggio full time after he shosuld not have been a ML regular... but ah digress)

   42. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5915208)
Beltran gonna have some fun questions to answer.
   43. Dock Ellis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:55 PM (#5915209)
@ChrisCotillo

MLB says Alex Cora was involved in developing both schemes, in Houston and Boston. Discipline will be withheld until Sox investigation is complete.
   44. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:58 PM (#5915211)
Wow, Cora is ALL OVER that report.
   45. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:59 PM (#5915212)
Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5915202)

The commissioner's statement re: Hinch


- unclear how hinch was supposed to put a stop to it if luhnow/taubman were in on it. are people suggesting he was supposed to commit career suicide and go to the media? because we ALL know that going to mlb wouldn't have done spit as they would suppress it
   46. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:01 PM (#5915214)
Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:54 PM (#5915208)

Beltran gonna have some fun questions to answer.


- from the media you mean. because he already had to answer questions from MLB and he was a player at the time he and cora did this so he isn't gonna be disciplined. would be VERY interesting if the mets fired him, but they won't
   47. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:03 PM (#5915215)
That report is surprisingly well-written. It's actually compelling prose.
   48. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:04 PM (#5915216)
from the media you mean.


Yes, that's what I mean.

As for Hinch, the report says, "However, Hinch admits he did not stop it and he did not notify players or
Cora that he disapproved of it, even after the Red Sox were disciplined in September 2017. "

It's not his fault but he's complicit, so boo hoo.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5915218)
Hinch got himself buckweavered.

   50. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5915219)
I find it unnecessary to determine Taubman’s culpability
for the Astros’ rules violations because, as described below, I am imposing significant
discipline on him for his inappropriate conduct in the clubhouse.


Hahahahahahahaha #### that guy
   51. . . . . . . Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5915220)
"Finally, I will make some general observations regarding the Astros’ baseball
operations department that were gleaned from the 68 interviews my investigators
conducted in addition to the nine interviews conducted regarding a separate investigation
into former Assistant General Manager Brandon Taubman’s conduct during a clubhouse
celebration. Like many Clubs with very experienced individuals running their baseball
operations departments, Astros owner Jim Crane and his senior executive team spent their
energies focused on running the business side of the Club while delegating control and
discretion on the baseball side to Luhnow. And it is difficult to question that division of
responsibilities in light of the fact that Luhnow is widely considered to be one of the most
successful baseball executives of his generation, credited with ushering in the second
“analytics” revolution in baseball and rebuilding the Houston Astros into a perennial
Postseason contender. But while no one can dispute that Luhnow’s baseball operations
department is an industry leader in its analytics, it is very clear to me that the culture of the
baseball operations department, manifesting itself in the way its employees are treated, its
relations with other Clubs, and its relations with the media and external stakeholders, has
been very problematic. At least in my view, the baseball operations department’s insular
culture – one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations, combined with a
staff of individuals who often lacked direction or sufficient oversight, led, at least in part,
to the Brandon Taubman incident, the Club’s admittedly inappropriate and inaccurate
response to that incident, and finally, to an environment that allowed the conduct described
in this report to have occurred. The comments in this paragraph relate only to the baseball
operations department. This aspect of our investigation did not extend to the business side
of the Club that functioned independently of baseball operations.
"

Wow.
   52. Khrushin it bro Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5915222)
The Red Sox probably get fined, too, but to really deter future violations, MLB should ban beer sales at Fenway Park for a year.
So from now on they're only going to sell Budweiser?


Nah, Bud Light Seltzer
   53. I am Ted F'ing Williams Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5915223)
Forget the suspensions, they're fired.
   54. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5915224)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahahaha #### them
   55. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5915226)
Yeah, I was lurking at the Astros SB Nation site--said there that Crane fired both of them.
   56. rconn23 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5915227)
Have to believeafter Cora's obvious suspension he will be fired by the Red Sox.
   57. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:12 PM (#5915228)
Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:06 PM (#5915219)

I find it unnecessary to determine Taubman’s culpability
for the Astros’ rules violations because, as described below, I am imposing significant
discipline on him for his inappropriate conduct in the clubhouse.



Hahahahahahahaha #### that guy


- with a jackhammer

sideways

without lube
   58. Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:13 PM (#5915230)
I would have been thrilled if the Nats had won the World series over an underdog team of sainthood candidates, but the Astros completely turning themselves into 80's movie villains, complete with cruel taunts and cheating schemes, really just gave it that extra cherry on top.
   59. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:14 PM (#5915231)
Have to believeafter Cora's obvious suspension he will be fired by the Red Sox.


The Sox gonna win with a new manager again? Or is this a Valentine year?
   60. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:14 PM (#5915232)
rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5915226)

Yeah, I was lurking at the Astros SB Nation site--said there that Crane fired both of them.


- it's official - just popped up on astros.com

however, crane is not showing fans any sympathy by lowering ticket prices
   61. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:14 PM (#5915233)
Maybe the Astros would like to hire Carlos Beltran away to be their manager.
   62. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:15 PM (#5915234)
hey bbc

Hope you and fam are well

rr
   63. wjones Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5915235)
Just got a text that Luhnow and Hinch have been fired. That will teach them to get suspended.
   64. The Mighty Quintana Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:18 PM (#5915236)
The Sox gonna win with a new manager again? Or is this a Valentine year?


Paging Mr. Baldelli!
   65. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5915237)
Here's the part of the statement re: players:

I will not assess discipline against individual Astros players. I made the decision in September 2017 that I would hold a Club’s General Manager and Field Manager accountable for misconduct of this kind, and I will not depart from that decision. Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical. It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability. It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.


If sign stealing is a big deal, then this seems to be to be... problematic. I know they've got a union and all, but these were the guys doing it. Hinch tried (sort of half-heartedly) to stop it, and Luhnow may-or-may-not have even known about it. But the report is very clear that it was the players who were behind the scheme.

Edit: And Cora, he was definitely behind it too.
   66. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5915238)
Wow.


Indeed...

It's odd, though...

one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations,


We can argue intent, we can argue efficacy, etc... but as someone who - today, has to take annual ethics training that amounts to "If it feels like 'cheating' - then you should step back consult corporate counsel" but DIDN'T just 5-10 years ago...

   67. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:22 PM (#5915240)
...I mean what's stopping them from just firing those guys on top of that, anyway?


"And so you shall!" -- M. Python
   68. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:25 PM (#5915242)
Does Alex Cora currently have any children?
   69. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:33 PM (#5915247)
rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:15 PM (#5915234)
hey bbc

Hope you and fam are well

rr


- thanks

fortunately no one is suffering because no one is an astros fan. my mama, now a cards fan, is gloating
   70. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:33 PM (#5915248)
will be interesting to see if cora gets fired too
   71. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:33 PM (#5915249)
Luhnow and Hinch have been fired.


Are they still only suspended for the 2020 season (although as of right now they're unemployed), or will their suspensions start if and when someone hires them?
   72. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:36 PM (#5915251)
manfred said for the 2020 season
   73. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:37 PM (#5915252)
Are they still only suspended for the 2020 season (although as of right now they're unemployed), or will their suspensions start if and when someone hires them?


And from the other direction, what does firing them mean for compensation? One for the lawyers, I guess - but I wonder whether firing them immediately has some implications regarding Crane paying out the remainder of their contracts or not.
   74. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:39 PM (#5915253)
Does Alex Cora currently have any children?

Four (per Wiki); they're being held is escrow until the investigation is complete.
   75. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:40 PM (#5915256)
crane will have to pay their salaries after 2020, is my understanding from what has happened to any other manager who gets fired.

   76. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:40 PM (#5915257)
manfred said for the 2020 season


Yeah but that was before they got fired.
   77. Bote Man Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:40 PM (#5915258)
   78. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:42 PM (#5915259)
Yeah but that was before they got fired.

They still don't get paid for 2020. If they were simply fired, they would.
   79. Itchy Row Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:43 PM (#5915261)
The Sox gonna win with a new manager again? Or is this a Valentine year?
Cora in dark glasses and a moustache?
   80. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:44 PM (#5915263)
crane will have to pay their salaries after 2020, is my understanding from what has happened to any other manager who gets fired.


I suspect so, too... IANAL, but this seems like a case where you either take the PR hit and let the legal process play out (i.e., I presume Crane's lawyers could have worked on voiding their contracts) or - you pay the dollars now. I'm sure it's not either/or - but I do know that one is always better off crossing the Ts and dotting the Is BEFORE pulling the termination trigger, not afterwards.
   81. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:46 PM (#5915267)
very funny that they needed to ban taubman. like any other club would have anything to do with him

I don't think any MLB team would hire him publicly, but without the ban I suspect another team might pay him as a consultant. This ban makes that expressly forbidden.
   82. puck Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:51 PM (#5915271)
When was the Red Sox sign stealing scheme supposed to have been done? I see they mention the apple watch thing, but that was before Cora. All through the 2018 season and post-season? Cora's in big trouble, huh?
   83. Tin Angel Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:52 PM (#5915273)
That report is surprisingly well-written. It's actually compelling prose.


Seriously. It's like they hired an actual writer.
   84. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:52 PM (#5915274)
All through the 2018 season and post-season? Cora's in big trouble, huh?


yup
   85. Walt Davis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:54 PM (#5915276)
I am surprised by, but don't object to, the severity of the penalties. I'll speculate it's because of what's said in that paragraph posted. Manfred decided the FO was rotten pretty much top to bottom, couldn't help but wonder how much other dodgy stuff they'd done that he didn't know about, etc.

The bit about the players is a bit of a dodge but it would be difficult. But also, suspending players on other teams hurts those other teams who had nothing to do with this and those teams acquired those players before knowing this scandal even existed. I suppose you could hand out some fines without suspensions to players ... although that's really just making a guy work for free during his suspension. If you can identify the ringleaders among the players, they'd be obvious suspension candidates. Otherwise, if the Astros had an official captain, maybe you could single him out.

In terms of baseball-specific penalties, this blows the punishment for the Cards hacking the Astros out of the water, doesn't it? The hacking incident seems a much graver FO violation to me -- this sign stealing is upgrading the technology of a classic of baseball cheating. But that gets us back to the culture thing -- if the hacking thing really was one rogue element vs. Manfred here finding that pretty much the whole apple is rotten.
   86. reech Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:54 PM (#5915277)
What are the chances Manfred spoke to Crane before the suspensions were issued and (suggested) that Crane (do the right thing and) fire them?
   87. Jose Is Absurdly Chatty Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:56 PM (#5915279)
Firing them seems a bit petty. That assumes a bit more ignorance at the top than I think is reasonable. The suspensions are well deserved and I feel do the right thing in terms of both retroactive punishments plus sending the message to everyone going forward that this isn't OK.

the Red Sox 2018 Apple Watch shenanigans


This was 2017, not 2018. Cora was in Houston at the time.
   88. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:57 PM (#5915281)
What are the chances Manfred spoke to Crane before the suspensions were issued and (suggested) that Crane (do the right thing and) fire them?


I would think/hope zero.
   89. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:57 PM (#5915282)
The fans in the Astros subreddit are really sad about Hinch and Luhnow being fired, so that's funny.


...I hope the players are sad too, because #### them for doing it.
   90. Bote Man Posted: January 13, 2020 at 03:58 PM (#5915283)
Cory McCartney @coryjmccartney
Per Forbes, the Astros' value went up $100M the year after the World Series win and revenue went up $48 million. These punishments aren't hurting ownership.
   91. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5915284)
What are the chances Manfred spoke to Crane before the suspensions were issued and (suggested) that Crane (do the right thing and) fire them?

I doubt he needed that. Those guys just cost his franchise $50M+ in player value and $5M.
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5915285)
The fans in the Astros subreddit are really sad about Hinch and Luhnow being fired, so that's funny.


...I hope the players are sad too, because #### them for doing it.


Sure, but it's not like Hinch and Luhnow couldn't have stopped them. Remove the video monitor. Done.
   93. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5915286)
crane will have to pay their salaries after 2020, is my understanding from what has happened to any other manager who gets fired.
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Crane should be able to make a pretty good argument that Luhnow & Hinch violated their contracts by participating in the rules violating scheme without his authorization and not telling him. They cost him $5M & those super-valaubale top draft picks. That should be cause to fire just about anyone.
   94. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:02 PM (#5915287)
Oh of course, and they deserved their placement in the garbage. As far as the players, it's mostly satisfying because they really seemed to have strong ties to Hinch, and their "we're the apex predators" nonsense is hilarious now.

But management deserves the big boot. The players can just feel and look bad.
   95. cardsfanboy Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:06 PM (#5915290)
What are the chances Manfred spoke to Crane before the suspensions were issued and (suggested) that Crane (do the right thing and) fire them?

I doubt he needed that. Those guys just cost his franchise $50M+ in player value and $5M.


Also, it makes getting a temporary GM a lot tougher, if they know they are only going to be on the job for one season.(same with manager) you pretty much had to fire them after that suspension.
   96. MuttsIdolCochrane Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:34 PM (#5915301)
As many of the above comments pointed out this was officially "player driven". No punishment can be fair if the drivers and cheaters themselves are not made to pay. They're all GUILTY. Even the Black Sox were officially found NOT GUILTY. Unlike these Astros. What are they again? Oh yeah, GUILTY.
   97. drdr Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:37 PM (#5915303)
When this investigation started, it was suggested that no players will be disciplined, since the front offices were expected to read the memo from the league that clearly stated that such use of monitors was illegal and will be severely punished, but players normally don't have access to that type of memos.
   98. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:38 PM (#5915304)
Whatever the official explanation may be, it's quite obvious that no players were suspended because the players are strongly unionized and there is a CBA negotiation coming up that's already fixing to be the most acrimonious in twenty years.
   99. Zonk didn't order a hit on an ambassador Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:41 PM (#5915306)
Personally, I'm already wondering if OOTP21 is going to add an option to cheat with technology, cheat without technology, or don't cheat -- and then event triggers to handle firings and suspensions!
   100. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:41 PM (#5915307)
The MLB memos made the GM & Field Manager responsible for compliance with the video technology rules. Can’t really discipline the Astro players for something the Bench Coach was running with the full knowledge of the Manager, and probably the GM. The right people were punished.
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