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Monday, January 13, 2020

Astros’ Jeff Luhnow, AJ Hinch suspended for 2020 | MLB.com

Wow1

Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch have each been suspended without pay for the 2020 season by Major League Baseball, which on Monday released the findings from its investigation into Houston’s sign-stealing allegations.

Houston also forfeits its first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 MLB Drafts as part of the penalties. In addition, the Astros were fined $5 million, which is the highest allowable fine under the Major League Constitution.

In addition, former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman, who was dismissed by the club in October after he made offensive and insensitive comments directed at a group of female reporters at the conclusion of the American League Championship Series, has been suspended for one year. Taubman, who is currently not employed by a Major League club, will not be able to work in baseball during that time.

The suspensions of Luhnow, Hinch and Taubman are to begin immediately, ending on the day following the completion of the 2020 World Series.

Jim Furtado Posted: January 13, 2020 at 02:09 PM | 257 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: a.j. hinch, astros, jeff luhnow

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   101. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:44 PM (#5915308)
Also, it makes getting a temporary GM a lot tougher, if they know they are only going to be on the job for one season.(same with manager) you pretty much had to fire them after that suspension.


Sounds like they’re promoting from within anyway. They already announced Espada as the new manager, and there are rumors that Putila will take over the GM’s job.
   102. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:46 PM (#5915310)
The fans in the Astros subreddit are really sad about Hinch and Luhnow being fired, so that's funny.


Seems like so long ago when they were defending Taubman and attacking the reporter he yelled at.
   103. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:48 PM (#5915311)
The MLB Network has all their big guns on the MLB Now program today - Ken Rosenthal, Tom Verducci, Bob Costas, & Jayson Stark, along with host Brian Kenny. I wonder if they were tipped off that there would be Big News today, or maybe someone leaked a copy of the report?
   104. Sunday silence Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:48 PM (#5915313)


Also, it makes getting a temporary GM a lot tougher, if they know they are only going to be on the job for one season.(same with manager) you pretty much had to fire them after that suspension.


THis is the obvious reason why they had to be fired. why the hell would you put your franchise in limbo like that for a year, as it goes in some other direction w/ one year manager/GM and then returns with radioactive fallout boys Luhnow/Hinch? What would that be like?



The bit about the players is a bit of a dodge but it would be difficult. But also, suspending players on other teams hurts those other teams who had nothing to do with this and those teams acquired those players before knowing this scandal even existed. I suppose you could hand out some fines without suspensions to players ... although that's really just making a guy work for free during his suspension. If you can identify the ringleaders among the players, they'd be obvious suspension candidates. Otherwise, if the Astros had an official captain, maybe you could single him out.


This is obviously well stated but in addition: he (the Comm'r) had to get those players to come in and give statements. Which while not directly hitting them in the pocketbook (although some endorsements may be lost) they lose a great deal of credibility to fans, their family and to history. It's not direct tradeoff of course but that's how it goes sometimes.

What's he supposed to do for the future? Suspend the entire team? Then how's he gonna get players to cooperate the next time something like this happens? He has to work with them. Not to mention the union issues.

Plus, Manfred can only fight so many battles. He figures the only way to create a lasting level playing field is to hit them at the top, the GMs and the draft picks. That's the only real deterrent to institutionalized cheating that he has. Finding/suspending players isnt going to stop that. Draft picks are the future and the life blook, this was about the max he could have done and it was deserved.

Q: How would Selig have handled this??
   105. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:48 PM (#5915314)
What are the chances Manfred spoke to Crane before the suspensions were issued and (suggested) that Crane (do the right thing and) fire them?

100%. 1000%. One million percent.
   106. Bote Man Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:52 PM (#5915317)
Sounds like they’re promoting from within anyway.

That ought to dispose of the "toxic culture" that allowed this to happen, alright!
   107. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:53 PM (#5915318)
How COULD you realistically punish players, though?

Never mind the CBA -- could you realistically assess and determine with high degree of confidence that caught the worst offenders? Or do you punish them all?

   108. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 04:59 PM (#5915319)
could you realistically assess and determine with high degree of confidence that caught the worst offenders? Or do you punish them all?

That's what Sister Rose used to do in the 6th grade
   109. Fancy Pants Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:02 PM (#5915320)
The MLB memos made the GM & Field Manager responsible for compliance with the video technology rules. Can’t really discipline the Astro players for something the Bench Coach was running with the full knowledge of the Manager, and probably the GM. The right people were punished.

This is dumb (as per usual from a Clapper post). The existence of the memo is an aggravating factor, which justifies the harshness of the penalties directed at the Astros and Luchnow/Hinch.

But you can absolutely discipline players for developing and participating in a scheme that they were fully aware of being cheating. It is not like without the memo, the players had no clue that this was forbidden. They absolutely knew what they were doing, and knew it was wrong. And disciplining them for that is absolutely proper.
   110. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:10 PM (#5915324)
Fascinating. Be interesting if like in places in tech and finance if these guys resurface after being away for a while or there is an understanding that the guilty cannot be allowed back in to the sport?
   111. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:11 PM (#5915325)
Well, this is interesting: https://mobile.twitter.com/KyleNYY/status/1216830546803818496?s=19

In a deleted Instagram post, Logan Morrison accuses the Astros of banging on trash cans as far back as 2014. The linked post includes a couple of clips that would seem to corroborate it.
   112. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:13 PM (#5915326)
He also says that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox were using technology to steal signs.
   113. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:16 PM (#5915327)
Logan Morrison accuses the Astros of banging on trash cans as far back as 2014. The linked post includes a couple of clips that would seem to corroborate it.

that was long before Cora got there
   114. RoyalFlush Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:19 PM (#5915329)
THis is the obvious reason why they had to be fired. why the hell would you put your franchise in limbo like that for a year, as it goes in some other direction w/ one year manager/GM and then returns with radioactive fallout boys Luhnow/Hinch? What would that be like?


A bit like the New Orleans Saints Bounty ordeal - Manager/coach out for a year; Exec VP out for half a season. They waited it out. Not completely the same situations. I'd rather my team bang on a trashcan than try and end people's careers. If I had to chose.
   115. Khrushin it bro Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:20 PM (#5915331)
Banging on cans did end people's careers most likely.
   116. winnipegwhip Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:24 PM (#5915333)
Banging on cans did end people's careers most likely.


Unlike fake punting on fourth down with the lead which should end careers.
   117. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:26 PM (#5915335)
That's what Sister Rose used to do in the 6th grade


With or without the connivance of the Brothers Cornelius?
   118. Captain Supporter Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:26 PM (#5915336)
This is dumb (as per usual from a Clapper post).


This is worse than dumb. Its a classless ad hominem attack.
   119. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:27 PM (#5915339)
that was long before Cora got there


Yep, and that’s part of what I thought was so interesting.
   120. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:36 PM (#5915341)
He also says that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox were using technology to steal signs.

Wasn't this already revealed, and punished (very lightly)?
   121. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:51 PM (#5915344)

Never mind the CBA -- could you realistically assess and determine with high degree of confidence that caught the worst offenders? Or do you punish them all?

It might be a bit unfair, but the fact that you can't punish everyone isn't a great reason not to punish anyone. It's certainly not how the criminal justice system works anywhere that I'm aware of.
   122. The Duke Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:52 PM (#5915345)
I like everything about this. By axing the GM and manager, you send the message to all GMs that management personnel in the dugout need to report any suspicious activity. Managers, coaches, trainers etc will all be given explicit instruction to report any and all activity. So, yes the players skate this time, but this can’t ever really happen again on such a large scale because the players will be ratted out now.

And, by the way, congrats to Mike Fiers for taking such a courageous step.
   123. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:53 PM (#5915347)
And, by the way, congrats to Mike Fiers for taking such a courageous step.

Indeed. They should award him the Astros picks :-)
   124. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 05:59 PM (#5915348)
It might be a bit unfair, but the fact that you can't punish everyone isn't a great reason not to punish anyone. It's certainly not how the criminal justice system works anywhere that I'm aware of.
The criminal justice system, at least the Anglo-American version, and I suspect othersl that are considered at all enlightened, doesn’t use collective guilt. If the government can’t prove who fired the fatal shots from the building, they can’t punish everyone present on the theory that someone there did something wrong.
   125. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:04 PM (#5915353)
Can the Orioles get a refund on their front office?
   126. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:15 PM (#5915359)
The criminal justice system, at least the Anglo-American version, and I suspect othersl that are considered at all enlightened, doesn’t use collective guilt. If the government can’t prove who fired the fatal shots from the building, they can’t punish everyone present on the theory that someone there did something wrong.


There was a Law and Order SVU episode in which a murder was committed by one of a set of identical twins. the murderer was caught on surveillance camera, but there was no other evidence. Both twins had the means, motive, and opportunity, both wanted the victim dead, and both declined to cooperate with police. Thus, knowing it was definitely one of the two, but not knowing which, they couldn't be prosecuted.
   127. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:19 PM (#5915360)
Wasn't this already revealed, and punished (very lightly)?

AFAIK, the Dodgers have never been publicly linked to electronic sign stealing/signaling.
   128. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:21 PM (#5915361)
The criminal justice system, at least the Anglo-American version, and I suspect othersl that are considered at all enlightened, doesn’t use collective guilt. If the government can’t prove who fired the fatal shots from the building, they can’t punish everyone present on the theory that someone there did something wrong.


This wasn't a criminal matter, though - it's a civil matter, and collective guilt gets assessed all the time, directly and indirectly, in civil matters... I mean, 2002 wasn't a great time to be a job-hunting CPA who had Arthur Andersen listed atop the resume...
   129. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:27 PM (#5915362)

The criminal justice system, at least the Anglo-American version, and I suspect othersl that are considered at all enlightened, doesn’t use collective guilt. If the government can’t prove who fired the fatal shots from the building, they can’t punish everyone present on the theory that someone there did something wrong.

Nobody is suggesting collective guilt, but MLB is suggesting collective innocence (or at least collective immunity from punishment) -- i.e. if we can't be confident we've punished *every* guilty party, then we can't punish *any* guilty party.

There may be good reasons for not punishing any of the players, but the above doesn't seem like a good one.
   130. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:29 PM (#5915364)

There was a Law and Order SVU episode in which a murder was committed by one of a set of identical twins. the murderer was caught on surveillance camera, but there was no other evidence. Both twins had the means, motive, and opportunity, both wanted the victim dead, and both declined to cooperate with police. Thus, knowing it was definitely one of the two, but not knowing which, they couldn't be prosecuted.


Even with DNA that would be true. You'd need fingerprints.
   131. Walt Davis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:35 PM (#5915365)
Sounds like they’re promoting from within anyway. They already announced Espada as the new manager, and there are rumors that Putila will take over the GM’s job.

I was gonna make that point -- if they were bringing Luhnow and Hinch back, they would just appoint these guys as interim. And they might still well be -- it's not easy to find a permanent manager and GM in mid-Jan. I suspect they'll start interviewing GM candidates at some point during the season (maybe in time for the draft, more likely to make sure they have one ready for the offseason) and managers after the year. Unless of course the team wins big this year. But we'll see.

There's probably no realistic alternative for GM; for manager you could bring in Dusty (or Davey Johnson or somebody with an Astros connection ... Larry Dierker or Art Howe?) as caretaker for a year. But pitchers and catchers report in a month (hooray!), you cant clean out the entire coaching staff and FO unless you think the repuational damage is so bad it's worth punting the season.

he (the Comm'r) had to get those players to come in and give statements.

yep, grant them immunity to encourage them to truthfully spill the beans.

It might be a bit unfair, but the fact that you can't punish everyone isn't a great reason not to punish anyone. It's certainly not how the criminal justice system works anywhere that I'm aware of.

Sure, you prosecute who you have evidence on. Another way the criminal justice system works anywhere that I'm aware of is to make deals with underlings who participated in the crime to get their testimony against those higher up in the conspiracy. MLB may have simply decided that the ones they most needed to punish were Luhnow, Hinch and the Astros organization even if that meant they couldn't punish everyone.

Again, if they could have gathered good evidence that Players A and B were the "ringleaders" in the clubhouse, then punish those guys. But, unless there were emails or something, getting that evidence likely would have required either getting other players to turn on them (against the player code unless everybody has immunity) or getting Luhnow/Hinch to turn on them (but they're the guys you most want to nail). The other option is getting the team captain, if there was one, to fall on his sword.

(By the way, I didn't really bother to follow this story in any detail. Maybe there was documented evidence of key players.)
   132. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:44 PM (#5915368)
This wasn't a criminal matter, though - it's a civil matter, and collective guilt gets assessed all the time, directly and indirectly, in civil matters... I mean, 2002 wasn't a great time to be a job-hunting CPA who had Arthur Andersen listed atop the resume...
Post # 124 responded to, and quoted from, post # 121, which made the comparison to the criminal justice system. However, the civil law system isn’t a great analogy, either. The September 15 MLB memo made it quite clear that preventing misuse of video technology was management’s responsibility. The severity of the punishment is due to what the Astros did after that, not before. Faulting players for cooperating with their Bench Coach’s instructions, which the Manager was fully aware of, is a losing hand in the grievance process. And who would be punished, those who had the best 2017 season, the most improvement from 2016, those who took the most breaking balls? That’s all unworkable. If other teams are now less interested in Astros players because their stats are suspect, or even because they consider them to be immoral, that would be like the 2002 job-hunting Arthur Andersen CPA, but individuals weren’t fined for securities law violations without proof of their own actions.
   133. Zonk Begs Your Pardon, Mr Blago Posted: January 13, 2020 at 06:46 PM (#5915370)
I could get behind a conspiracy theory to protect Jose Altuve....

In both senses of the sentence :-)
   134. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:01 PM (#5915373)
   135. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:05 PM (#5915375)
Luhnow's "apology" was predictably terrible. Hinch's was pretty good though.
   136. Walt Davis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:06 PM (#5915376)
2002 wasn't a great time to be a job-hunting CPA who had Arthur Andersen listed atop the resume.

And this might well be the end of Luhnow's and Hinch's careers (certainly Taubman's), very likely the last major positions they'll hold in MLB ... and listing your tenure there at this time is not likely to be a major plus on your resume from here on out.

You'd need fingerprints.

Fingerprints are not super reliable, especially in some states that have low standards.** Statistical analysis and experiments have blown a hole in much of the "scientific, forensic" evidence we've seen on TV and the frequently poorly trained and/or biased forensic techs make things even worse. In the fictional scenario, guessing the two identical twins were reasonably wealthy (usually the case in these TV dramas), they could probably find their own forensic expert to testify the prints don't match.

** At least as of about 10 years ago or so. Maybe digital technology has changed things but, in the old days, the usual US standard for a fingerprint match was (if I recall right) a match on 6 "points" with some states allowing matches on just 3 or 4 points. A fingerprint match, much less a partial print, was never "these are identical" it was "this supposed fingerprint expert employed by the state claims there are 6 places where these two prints are the same and (possibly) this was reviewed by another supposed expert that also works for the state (or possibly FBI or other state)." The National Academy of Science undertook a major review of forensic "science" that called many techniques into question ... a brief web browse suggests fingerprints didn't do too bad, at least as long as you have at least two genuinely independent experts assess the match. Here's a Wiki summary of the debate:

The validity of forensic fingerprint evidence has been challenged by academics, judges and the media. In the United States fingerprint examiners have not developed uniform standards for the identification of an individual based on matching fingerprints. In some countries where fingerprints are also used in criminal investigations, fingerprint examiners are required to match a number of identification points before a match is accepted. In England 16 identification points are required and in France 12, to match two fingerprints and identify an individual. Point-counting methods have been challenged by some fingerprint examiners because they focus solely on the location of particular characteristics in fingerprints that are to be matched. Fingerprint examiners may also uphold the one dissimilarity doctrine, which holds that if there is one dissimilarity between two fingerprints, the fingerprints are not from the same finger. Furthermore academics have argued that the error rate in matching fingerprints has not been adequately studied. And it has been argued that fingerprint evidence has no secure statistical foundation.[25] Research has been conducted into whether experts can objectively focus on feature information in fingerprints without being misled by extraneous information, such as context

Here's a link for you legal types.
   137. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:10 PM (#5915377)

And who would be punished, those who had the best 2017 season, the most improvement from 2016, those who took the most breaking balls? That’s all unworkable.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think it would be that hard to collect testimony here. It's like a massive Prisoner's Dilemma with a lower evidentiary standard than the criminal justice system, and you've already got one former player talking to the press, other guys who no longer play for the Astros as well as pitchers who didn't benefit from the scheme and could have been hurt by it afterwards. But I suspect, as others have suggested upthread, that those type of tactics would have been viewed as too adversarial and perhaps unlikely to hold up in a union grievance.
   138. Sunday silence Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:14 PM (#5915379)
Post # 124 responded to, and quoted from, post # 121, which made the comparison to the criminal justice system. However, the civil law system isn’t a great analogy, either. The September 15 MLB memo made it quite clear that preventing misuse of video technology was management’s responsibility.


Well this is kind of ironic on your part too. You are bringing up this whole issue of collective guilt which would be a real concern, but it doesnt seem at all appropriate to what happened here.

its seem clear that there was some sort of sign signaling going on with just about every player on the team. It also seems elementary that the hitters knew this or else they didnt seem understand why players in the dugout were banging on trash cans.

Is it not clear to you that most of these hitters knew they were stealing signs? I dont see why this collective guilt issue is relevant to this.

ANd as long as your bringing up memos that players might not know about I thought it was clearly understood by players that they cant steal signs using electronics. Is that not correct ? So they had to be aware of some rule about this. Does that just not make an impression on you?
   139. Sunday silence Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5915380)

Luhnow's "apology" was predictably terrible.


Well the guy says he didnt know what was going on. Does Manfred's report shed any more light on what evidence we have of this? LUhnow is saying it was lower level people in the organization doing this, I wasnt there I dont know.
   140. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:21 PM (#5915382)
Credit to Mike Fiers for the courage and commitment to be forthcoming about this. Being a whistleblower is not easy and I hope there isn't backlash laying in wait for him. Credit, too, for Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich for their initial reporting of this.

My only quibble with the penalties is the $5MM fine. I know that's the maximum allowed, but it seems skewed to me that a player can lose more from a PED suspension (e.g., Alex Rodriguez or Cano) than a team can lose for egregious violations. I'm not certain what the maximum should be for teams, but the amounts that occur to me are either a fine equal to the top MLB player salary or a fine equal to the offending team's top player salary.
   141. Astroenteritis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5915383)
As an Astros fan, I've refrained from commenting on this situation, but now I can say the penalties are about what I expected. I am very surprised the club fired Hinch and Luhnow, though. Didn't see that coming. If that's Crane's attempt to look like someone with integrity, it is hilarious. Enough said about the owner. I think MLB felt they had to make an example of the Astros, and they certainly deserved punishment for flaunting the rules after being warned about their behavior, but I'll never be convinced that quite a few other teams shouldn't be looked at more closely, too.

Also, I'm way more upset by the Taubman incident and what that says about the organizational culture. If Taubman is representative of the kind of sh*tbags they have working in the front office, then a lot more firings should be forthcoming.
   142. SoSH U at work Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5915384)
Fingerprints are not super reliable, especially in some states that have low standards.** Statistical analysis and experiments have blown a hole in much of the "scientific, forensic" evidence we've seen on TV and the frequently poorly trained and/or biased forensic techs make things even worse. In the fictional scenario, guessing the two identical twins were reasonably wealthy (usually the case in these TV dramas), they could probably find their own forensic expert to testify the prints don't match.

** At least as of about 10 years ago or so. Maybe digital technology has changed things but, in the old days, the usual US standard for a fingerprint match was (if I recall right) a match on 6 "points" with some states allowing matches on just 3 or 4 points. A fingerprint match, much less a partial print, was never "these are identical" it was "this supposed fingerprint expert employed by the state claims there are 6 places where these two prints are the same and (possibly) this was reviewed by another supposed expert that also works for the state (or possibly FBI or other state)." The National Academy of Science undertook a major review of forensic "science" that called many techniques into question ... a brief web browse suggests fingerprints didn't do too bad, at least as long as you have at least two genuinely independent experts assess the match. Here's a Wiki summary of the debate:


As with 126, Dick Wolf had an L&O episode for that.
   143. Astroenteritis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:25 PM (#5915386)
Also, someone's going to write a retrospective on this disaster called Bang the Can Slowly.
   144. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:27 PM (#5915388)
MLB puts out a memo emphatically stating, or restating, that preventing misuse of video technology is management’s responsibility, primarily the GM & Field Manager. The Astros ignored the memo, and got caught, but for some reason some here want the players to be punished because management, the baseball operations staff, and video technicians all ignored the MLB memo? I don’t see the point - you don’t need to punish those who merely heard the banging trashcan to fix the problem, and Manfred would probably lose if he tried. In any event, it seems fairly clear from the report that Cora’s Chief Henchman (Henchman-In-Chief?) was Carlos Beltran, who now manages the Mets. Isn’t that punishment enough?
   145. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:34 PM (#5915389)
Well the guy says he didnt know what was going on. Does Manfred's report shed any more light on what evidence we have of this? LUhnow is saying it was lower level people in the organization doing this, I wasnt there I dont know.
I highly recommend reading the report. Luhnow insisted that he didn’t know, but the Commissioner said the scheme was mentioned in two e-mails sent to him by lower-level baseball operations staff. There’s also conflicting testimony about some conversations. Manfred didn’t bother deciding whether Luhnow was lying, and took the position that it was Luhnow’s job to make sure that the Astros weren’t misusing video technology, especially after the MLB memo.
   146. Walt Davis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:48 PM (#5915393)
I don't think anybody ever quite answered bbc's question of when do the suspensions of L&H end. She's reference the player PEDs (and other?) suspensions where, if the player is suspended for year X but isn't employed by a team then the suspension does not start until he is employed in year X+1. This happened to Manny who initially retired after receiving the 1-year suspension. He first found out that the suspension also meant he couldn't play Dominican winter league then he learned that his suspension hadn't started even though he hadn't played in a year. He applied to be reinstated (as in available to be signed) and got some time off for the retirement year but still had to serve some time.

So bbc's question is whether this works differently for FO suspensions. Luhnow no longer works for a MLB team, the Astros have surrendered their rights to his employment for 2021 and beyond (even if they still pay him). The fact that he was still under contract for this season and beyond is very different from Manny's situation and I can see where a player in that situation would also be serving his suspension in year X even if released by his team and not signed by anybody else (certainly you can only suspend the salary for a year) ... but I'm not certain of that. Or was that Manny thing simply because he officially retired and if he'd just not retired, his suspension would have been served in year X?

Back to punishing players, maybe MLB and MLBPA could have agreed on a scheme where the 2017 players collectively make a charitable donation of $X million, with their contribution to the scheme based on salary and service time with the Astros (e.g. everybody donates 1% of their MLB salary that was paid by the Astros). That of course "punishes" the innocent but at least the money goes to charity and if innocent Player A is sufficiently annoyed by that, then he can gripe to the guys responsible and maybe they will volunteer to pay a bigger share. (Or simply apply the "fine" anonymously such that the "guilty" players contribute then it's announced as a collective apology donation.)

On unofficial, communal punishments ...

My guess is "none" but possibly being caught up in this scandal will hurt the future HoF chances of Beltran (or Altuve, Springer, Correa, Bregman but it will be a while before we have to consider their HoF cases). A basically unsubstantiated claim in the NYT ended up ruining Sosa's chances and testimony of two inconsistent and unreliable witnesses was not enough to convict Clemens but has been enough to keep him out of the HoF and, of course, the very, very likely use of PEDs by Bonds has not only kept him out of the HoF but may have gotten him blackballed from a final season or two. On the other hand, it may or may not be hurting Pettitte, is very unlikely to hurt Ortiz and, surprising to me, Manny and especially Sheffield are seeing a pretty jumps this year (and leaving Sosa totally in the dust).

Park this topic for a future thread but I find it interesting that so few of the Bonds/Clemens HoF voters are willing to vote for Sosa and Manny. B&C are stuck at 60% and not likely to go anywhere (almost nobody changes their minds on them) but at least 40% of those folks who vote B&C don't vote for Manny and at least 2/3 of them don't vote for Sosa. It suggests that a fair amount of the B&C support is along the lines of a PEDs discount (with them still obviously qualifying) or "they were HoF before they started PEDs." Manny getting fewer votes because he was caught in the official program and suspended twice makes sense but not for Sosa if the rationale of these voters was "PEDs shouldn't matter for HoF voting." It does make sense if many of them have decided that Sosa never would have been HoF worthy without PEDs. (There's also the possibility of strategic voting but that's not a good reason these days.)
   147. Sunday silence Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:49 PM (#5915394)
Is it odd that Manfred did the investigation? DIdnt MLB hire Dowd or someone to do the PEte Rose report? Just odd. Not saying its wrong.

That's interesting the part you said about the emails. I wonder if that part of the story will go on.
   148. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:54 PM (#5915396)
I don't think anybody ever quite answered bbc's question of when do the suspensions of L&H end.


From Manfred's statement, both Luhnow and Hinch "shall be suspended without pay for the period beginning on January 13, 2020 and ending on the day following the completion of the 2020 World Series."
   149. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:01 PM (#5915398)
I don't think anybody ever quite answered bbc's question of when do the suspensions of L&H end.
After the 2020 World Series - their firing won’t change that. The interesting question is whether Crane will refuse to pay the post-2020 portions of the contracts for Luhnow & Hinch, claiming their misconduct breached the contracts. Might depend on whether they have anything on him.
   150. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:01 PM (#5915400)
There was a Law and Order SVU episode in which a murder was committed by one of a set of identical twins. the murderer was caught on surveillance camera, but there was no other evidence. Both twins had the means, motive, and opportunity, both wanted the victim dead, and both declined to cooperate with police. Thus, knowing it was definitely one of the two, but not knowing which, they couldn't be prosecuted.
Wow, what an amazing benefit of being a twin! Why don’t more sets of twins go into the hit man business?
   151. Rennie's Tenet Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:04 PM (#5915402)
Is there any chance that this puts a little ding in the tank three years/win three years fashion? It can't help that one of major success stories was built on fraud.
   152. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:08 PM (#5915404)

Fingerprints are not super reliable, especially in some states that have low standards.** Statistical analysis and experiments have blown a hole in much of the "scientific, forensic" evidence we've seen on TV and the frequently poorly trained and/or biased forensic techs make things even worse. In the fictional scenario, guessing the two identical twins were reasonably wealthy (usually the case in these TV dramas), they could probably find their own forensic expert to testify the prints don't match.


If you only have to choose between two people, I'd guess they're pretty reliable.
   153. The Honorable Ardo Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:24 PM (#5915407)
Side note: Gerrit Cole's "I'm not a part of this organization" vibe after Game 7 makes a LOT more sense now.
   154. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:29 PM (#5915409)
I'm sure someone's made this point before, but this doesn't exactly seem to be the ideal time for MLB to be partnering with sports books and promoting gambling.

EDIT: Hmmmmm, now that link doesn't seem to work. (smile) But the URL is https://www.playpennsylvania.com/fox-bet-mlb-sports-betting-partnership/
   155. Blastin Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:29 PM (#5915410)
Cole is having a fine offseason
   156. Fancy Pants Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:32 PM (#5915412)
If you only have to choose between two people, I'd guess they're pretty reliable.

While identical twins do not have completely identical fingerprints, they do typically have incredibly similar ones.
   157. SoSH U at work Posted: January 13, 2020 at 08:49 PM (#5915417)

Side note: Gerrit Cole's "I'm not a part of this organization" vibe after Game 7 makes a LOT more sense now.


If that was the reason, absolutely. I don't know why we would necessarily conclude that.

   158. i hear there are a lot of dead animals in 57i66135 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 09:10 PM (#5915421)
i'm not sure if anyone posted this yet, but here's a twitter thread that zapruders through video of what the astros were doing, and how it was effecting games.




the impact that this had on games cannot be overstated.
   159. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: January 13, 2020 at 09:44 PM (#5915435)
Well the guy says he didnt know what was going on. Does Manfred's report shed any more light on what evidence we have of this? LUhnow is saying it was lower level people in the organization doing this, I wasnt there I dont know.

What rational person would give Luhnow the benefit of the doubt at this point? I’m sure that he and Crane were the only people that had no clue what was going on. C’mon.
   160. i hear there are a lot of dead animals in 57i66135 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 09:45 PM (#5915436)
Also, I'm way more upset by the Taubman incident and what that says about the organizational culture. If Taubman is representative of the kind of sh*tbags they have working in the front office, then a lot more firings should be forthcoming.

say what you will about taubman's personal failings, but at least he was a relatively competent professional.


less than a year from now, 60+ million americans are going to vote for president "grab 'em by the #####\", despite that shitdemon trying to spark world war ####### three.
   161. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2020 at 09:53 PM (#5915441)
say what you will about taubman's personal failings, but at least he was a relatively competent professional.
Aside from the totally unprofessional behavior while representing the Astros in their clubhouse. And the lying to his bosses about it.
   162. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:00 PM (#5915443)
Side note: Gerrit Cole's "I'm not a part of this organization" vibe after Game 7 makes a LOT more sense now.

I can still hate him though for the organization he is part of now.
   163. Ziggy is done with Dominican discotheques Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:14 PM (#5915451)
A bit like the New Orleans Saints Bounty


I don't follow lesser sports, but I was really surprised that this didn't end in long prison sentences and lifetime bans for everyone involved. As far as I can tell this was just a zillion times more egregious than anything that's ever happened in baseball.

The report goes out of its way to exonerate Crane, which I guess makes sense, considering that he's (one of) Manfred's (thirty) boss(es). There was some speculation that Manfred leaned on Crane to fire Hinch and Luhnow, but if that's the case you'd think that a lifetime ban would have been forthcoming, so as to save Crane their salaries over the remainder of their contracts.

Also: as to collective punishments for the players, they all at least knew what was going on. Not stopping it was what Hinch is being punished for, you'd think that all of the players would be equally culpable.
   164. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:14 PM (#5915452)

The MLB memos made the GM & Field Manager responsible for compliance with the video technology rules. Can’t really discipline the Astro players for something the Bench Coach was running with the full knowledge of the Manager, and probably the GM. The right people were punished.


Why can't you discipline the players? The report makes it pretty clear it was a player-driven scheme. I agree that the managers, coaches, and GM should be held responsible too, but I am kinda at a loss as to why no players were disciplined, Carlos Beltran in particular.


From the report:

Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams’ signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros’ dugout.


   165. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:19 PM (#5915455)
Astroenteritis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5915383)

...If that's Crane's attempt to look like someone with integrity, it is hilarious.


DINGDINGDING

I'll never be convinced that quite a few other teams shouldn't be looked at more closely, too.


DINGDINGDING


Also, I'm way more upset by the Taubman incident and what that says about the organizational culture. If Taubman is representative of the kind of sh*tbags they have working in the front office, then a lot more firings should be forthcoming


DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!

i am very glads that my friends don't work there no mo
   166. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:19 PM (#5915457)

i'm not sure if anyone posted this yet, but here's a twitter thread that zapruders through video of what the astros were doing, and how it was effecting games.


I totally forgot about Hinch laughing off that Yankees accusation. Yea, he deserves to be suspended.
   167. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:20 PM (#5915459)
He also says that the Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox were using technology to steal signs.
Believable. Also the Giants, Padres, Angels, Diamondbacks, Mariners, As, Rangers, Twins, Royals, Cardinals, Cubs, White Sox, Indians, Reds, Twins, Brewers, Tigers, Pirates, Phillies, Jays, Rays, Marlins, Braves, Nats, and Mets.

I mean, seriously, does anyone think this is something other than "These are the ones who got caught"?
   168. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:22 PM (#5915460)
now david

my brew crew are all Perfect Little Angel Choirboyz and they wouldn't NEVAH do nothing like that
   169. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:22 PM (#5915461)

the impact that this had on games cannot be overstated.
I think it just was.
   170. Walt Davis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:27 PM (#5915463)
From Manfred's statement, both Luhnow and Hinch "shall be suspended without pay for the period beginning on January 13, 2020 and ending on the day following the completion of the 2020 World Series."

Again, doesn't actually quite answer the question because Manfred's statement preceded the firing. (Unless this is a later statement.) The question is does the firing change that since L&H are no longer employed by a MLB team. Again, Manny's suspension was announced, he chose to retire but his 100-game suspension remained in force when he un-retired (though it was reduced to 50 games). If the Ms had released Cano after his suspension, would his suspension clock only have started after some team picked him up? (This must happen to suspended minor-leaguers all the time.) Manfred's statement is roughly the equivalent of "Player X is suspended for the first 80 games of the 2020 season because his last drug test of 2019 was positive" only to then have nobody sign this player in spring 2020 in which case, from the Manny example, the suspension remains in effect until somebody signs him even if that's not until the 81st game of the 2020 season. So in that case, it would matter than Manfred had said "2020." (It's quite possible they are careful not to say "2020 season" when it comes to player suspension announcements.)

bbc is asking the question of whether players and FO staff are treated differently under these similar circumstances. That's not definitively answered at the moment.

Really, in order to be "suspended" you have to be employed -- if it really is limited to 2020 then, now that he's fired, it has converted to a 1-year (or 10 month) "ban" not a suspension. That is different than how it worked for Manny. As I mentioned earlier, that Luhnow was still under contract past 2020 but Manny wasn't could be a key difference.
   171. The Duke Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:28 PM (#5915464)
The report basically was nice enough to let luhnow claim no knowledge. That can’t be true but to me it looks like mlb trying to save someone who has added a lot of value to the game.

Hinch, on the other hand. What the heck was he thinking? I’ll destroy the TV twice but I won’t tell people to cut it out ? Was he really even in charge ? Who would hire him after that report? How utterly embarrassing for him. And to have the chutzpah to make fun of the whistling charges. Reminds of the scene in four weddings and a funeral “very disappointing!”.

And when will we get a real accounting of the Correa-Luhnow incident. This organizational behavior certainly calls into question whether Correa was correct that the Cardinals system was pilfered (without in any way condoning his actions ). And as I recall crane was lobbying for much harsher penalties for the Cards - well Jim here are your harsh penalties.
   172. Dock Ellis Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:33 PM (#5915466)
of course bbc was right all along
   173. winnipegwhip Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM (#5915468)
In regards to Luhnow's claims of being distant from the events, wasn't Bo Porter fired because of his frustration with Luhnow's overbearing presence around the dugout and clubhouse?
   174. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:47 PM (#5915469)
And when will we get a real accounting of the Correa-Luhnow incident. This organizational behavior certainly calls into question whether Correa was correct that the Cardinals system was pilfered . . .
I don’t get to break into your house just to make sure you haven’t stolen any of my property, and, of course, Correa did far more. The Correa matter was thoroughly investigated, and neither the courts nor MLB found anything to support Correa’s ‘defense’. Let’s not go there again, nothing has changed.
   175. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:56 PM (#5915473)
Again, doesn't actually quite answer the question because Manfred's statement preceded the firing. (Unless this is a later statement.) The question is does the firing change that since L&H are no longer employed by a MLB team.


I think Manfred's statement should be taken at face value. He's given them a date-based suspension, in contrast to a games-based one like players receive for PED suspensions. With players, that's why a suspension will remain to be served if a player isn't under contract to a team, aka a player didn't really serve his time if he wasn't under contract and so didn't miss games for which he would otherwise be eligible as a player.
   176. base ball chick Posted: January 13, 2020 at 11:08 PM (#5915477)
winnipegwhip Posted: January 13, 2020 at 10:38 PM (#5915468)

In regards to Luhnow's claims of being distant from the events, wasn't Bo Porter fired because of his frustration with Luhnow's overbearing presence around the dugout and clubhouse?


- sort of

but it wasn't just frustration - he was OPEN about it and the sore on the ass done busted when bo stood up for the players who were NOT happy about the way mark appel was being, uh, stroked, and in front of the major leaguers. it was byby bo

- as for chris correa, things were "investigated" and at the time luhnow and siggy poo were determined to be little angelz who wouldn't NEVAH have stolen no info from the cardinals Organization. i would love to hear the evidence correa didn't present - but now that he is out of prison, and has a nice job, i am guessing he doesn't want nothing to do with no baseball no mo, seeing as how he prolly wants to keep his job
   177. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: January 13, 2020 at 11:08 PM (#5915478)
   178. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 13, 2020 at 11:36 PM (#5915484)
wasn't Bo Porter fired because of his frustration with Luhnow's overbearing presence around the dugout and clubhouse?

I thought it was because Bo Porter doesn't know the rules of baseball.
   179. Fancy Pants Handle on Altuve's Buzzer Posted: January 13, 2020 at 11:43 PM (#5915485)
Believable. Also the Giants, Padres, Angels, Diamondbacks, Mariners, As, Rangers, Twins, Royals, Cardinals, Cubs, White Sox, Indians, Reds, Twins, Brewers, Tigers, Pirates, Phillies, Jays, Rays, Marlins, Braves, Nats, and Mets.

I see what you did there.
   180. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 13, 2020 at 11:56 PM (#5915489)
Actually, since Baltimore hired General Manager Mike Elias from the Astros, it’s quite likely the Orioles picked up some or all of Houston’s cheating ways. That’s embarrassing for team that still lost 108 games.
   181. The Duke Posted: January 14, 2020 at 12:03 AM (#5915492)
167. Do you mean “doesn’t everyone believe all 30 teams are blatantly cheating and ignoring explicit MLB guidance ?”

Of course they aren’t all doing it. There’s a common belief that everyone was illegally obtaining and using illegal drugs (PEDs) and that all teams were gaming the Latin American talent market. None of these things are true

Were 5-10% of the teams/players doing these illegal things? That’s believable. And in all these cases, at the outset, the illegality/ethical concerns may be have been cloudy but as time goes by and it’s clear the thing you are doing is wrong, the behavior tends to dwindle.

I’ve worked for 5 major companies at pretty high levels. I’ve seen a few people play fast and loose with rules but it’s a small minority and I have found that activity lessens to almost 0% the more money/reputation you have at risk.

Look at the fallout for all the people involved in these three activities (and especially for Chris Correa in the Cardinals situation). Who would want that ?
   182. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 12:14 AM (#5915495)

Chris Correa committed a felony; I'm not suggesting that everyone does that. I'm suggesting that MLB rules (that have never before been enforced) are pretty much universally violated.
   183. SoSH U at work Posted: January 14, 2020 at 12:14 AM (#5915496)
167. Do you mean “doesn’t everyone believe all 30 teams are blatantly cheating and ignoring explicit MLB guidance ?”


Yes, but also see Post 180.

   184. greenback slays lewks Posted: January 14, 2020 at 01:37 AM (#5915501)
And this might well be the end of Luhnow's and Hinch's careers (certainly Taubman's), very likely the last major positions they'll hold in MLB ... and listing your tenure there at this time is not likely to be a major plus on your resume from here on out.

I assume Taubman and Hinch are toast, but Luhnow built a franchise that averaged 104 wins over the last three years. If you're an owner and the established punishment for Luhnow getting caught is a $5 million fine and a couple of lost draft picks, then the downside isn't meaningful.

If something equivalent happened in college sports, Luhnow would have a head coaching job the day after his suspension ended. Granted, the only sports institutions sleazier than the NCAA are FIFA and the IOC.
   185. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 07:18 AM (#5915505)
I'm suggesting that MLB rules (that have never before been enforced) are pretty much universally violated.


In this case, though, MLB sent around a memo saying "hey, we're going to enforce this rule, so make sure you're in compliance."

   186. PreservedFish Posted: January 14, 2020 at 08:13 AM (#5915508)
Luhnow built a franchise that averaged 104 wins over the last three years. If you're an owner and the established punishment for Luhnow getting caught is a $5 million fine and a couple of lost draft picks, then the downside isn't meaningful.


This is such a bizarre way of looking at it.
   187. The Duke Posted: January 14, 2020 at 08:45 AM (#5915511)
Luhnow will likely get another shot. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the cardinals bring him back to allow him to stay in the game until someone rehires him as GM.

Speaking of which, most teams have a VP of business operations and a GM. Do the Astros not have this dual structure ?
   188. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 09:14 AM (#5915519)
I assume Taubman and Hinch are toast, but Luhnow built a franchise that averaged 104 wins over the last three years. If you're an owner and the established punishment for Luhnow getting caught is a $5 million fine and a couple of lost draft picks, then the downside isn't meaningful.


What makes you think any of these guys are such singular geniuses? I'm pretty confident that the next 30 would-be GMs are 95% as good as the current 30.

Even within a front office, the GM is only a small part of the overall talent.
   189. JJ1986 Posted: January 14, 2020 at 09:23 AM (#5915522)
I would think Hinch is much more likely to work in baseball again, maybe not in a dugout, but as a scout or instructor if he wants to. There are hundreds of those positions available, while there are only 30 GM spots and I doubt Luhnow would take something below that level.
   190. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 09:33 AM (#5915527)

What makes you think any of these guys are such singular geniuses? I'm pretty confident that the next 30 would-be GMs are 95% as good as the current 30.

Whether we believe it or not, the owners keep paying these guys as though they believe it. So I agree Luhnow will probably get another job at some point.

Chris Correa committed a felony; I'm not suggesting that everyone does that. I'm suggesting that MLB rules (that have never before been enforced) are pretty much universally violated

The rule isn't that old so this is a strange statement to make. Furthermore, teams have in fact been punished for violating it. The Red Sox were fined in 2017 for violating the rule around electronic communications using Apple watches, and the Yankees were also fined for a prior phone usage violation. Between the 2017 and 2018 seasons, MLB sent a memo to the clubs pretty much making it specifically prohibiting pretty much the exact behavior engaged in by the Astros, and saying that teams and their employees would be punished for violations.
   191. PreservedFish Posted: January 14, 2020 at 09:40 AM (#5915529)
Why would you hire Luhnow, and deal with the media blowback, when you could hire one of his former assistants?
   192. PreservedFish Posted: January 14, 2020 at 09:54 AM (#5915536)
Hinch comes across in all this as a good guy that ultimately didn't have the stones to put his job/reputation on the line in order to stop the cheating. I think he probably deserves another chance.

Luhnow, however, presided over what was clearly a very ugly organization. His success was marvelous, but you don't need Luhnow to replicate it. Whatever secret sauce he has is already filtering throughout the league as coaches, players and FO members move to different organizations.

The other thing is that Hinch has nothing else - this is his career, and the only way he could possibly earn money like this. He sounded contrite, and probably really is contrite, and probably really wants to correct his reputation.

Meanwhile, McKinsey is probably already preparing a job offer for Luhnow. His old buddies can't wait to slap his back and commiserate with him, after all, he was merely doing what any of them would've done if they'd been given the chance. He'll be nicely compensated to go out gladhanding Texas millionaires or something.
   193. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:01 AM (#5915538)
Luhnow will likely get another shot. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the cardinals bring him back to allow him to stay in the game until someone rehires him as GM.

They can even give him his old login back.
   194. Rally Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:12 AM (#5915541)
If something equivalent happened in college sports, Luhnow would have a head coaching job the day after his suspension ended. Granted, the only sports institutions sleazier than the NCAA are FIFA and the IOC.


Coach violates the rules? Fire him, pay him all the money on his contract and let him get a new job for another NCAA team. After several years of investigation, impose the penalty on his old team by punishing kids who were probably 10 years old at the time the violations occurred. What could be more just?
   195. Jose Bautista Bobblehead Day Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:21 AM (#5915544)
Luhnow once fired a minor-league coach on the spot for refusing to implement long-toss training, but, sure, he had no idea what the "lower-level employees" of his MLB coaching staff and roster were doing.
   196. shoelesjoe Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:24 AM (#5915546)
Actually, since Baltimore hired General Manager Mike Elias from the Astros, it’s quite likely the Orioles picked up some or all of Houston’s cheating ways.


Elias was Houston’s director of amateur scouting, and then put in charge of player development and minor league operations. Doesn’t mean he didn’t know about what was happening on the field with the big league club, but his official responsibilities were focused more on the minor league side of things.

What interests me is the fact that Carlos Beltrán was one of the players who initiated this scheme right after joining the Astros at the beginning of 2017. He’d been a Yankee for most of the previous three years (which included the Apple Watch scandal), and as the Alex Cora saga seems to indicate guys who successfully cheated on one team were likely to continue the practice on whatever team they went to next.
   197. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:35 AM (#5915550)
There was a Law and Order SVU episode in which a murder was committed by one of a set of identical twins. the murderer was caught on surveillance camera, but there was no other evidence. Both twins had the means, motive, and opportunity, both wanted the victim dead, and both declined to cooperate with police. Thus, knowing it was definitely one of the two, but not knowing which, they couldn't be prosecuted.


The Kray twins pulled that trick off a few times. They also sometimes would switch places with one another before killings, so that the one with means had no motive and the one with motive had an ironclad alibi.
   198. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:42 AM (#5915554)
Luhnow will go work for some evil company, like Goldman Sachs or McKinsey, and be well-paid for doing terrible things. Stuff like he did with the Astros is nothing but a job qualification there.
   199. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:49 AM (#5915555)
could you realistically assess and determine with high degree of confidence that caught the worst offenders? Or do you punish them all?

we all were led to sit down outside the principal's office after the Great Thumbtacks-On-Chairs* Incidents of 1974.
all but one boy, that is. as we sat to await our fate, he came running past us to the boy's room - but he threw up before he got there. always wondered if he felt guilty for being the only non-guilty one.

one particularly impudent rascal had a scowl on his face, which the chief nun insisted he remove. he stood up, scowl intact. she smacked him hard across the face. he never flinched, and kept his gaze - even with reddish finger marks on his cheek. woulda been a helluva movie scene.


* - the end came when one kid, realizing our chairs were cheap plastic, rammed the sharp end of a compass through the bottom. the ensuing scream awakened even the most clueless of the nuns.

............

also, fear not that I am a twin - we have committed no crimes together. as fraternal twins, we are no more genetically related to each other than we are to our three other siblings. plus we look nothing alike, so not even that superficial edge would hold (we do walk alike, though - same fast cadence that our Dad had).
   200. Blastin Posted: January 14, 2020 at 10:53 AM (#5915558)
Luhnow will go work for some evil company, like Goldman Sachs or McKinsey, and be well-paid for doing terrible things. Stuff like he did with the Astros is nothing but a job qualification there.


Like basically everyone I went to college with! It's gross!
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