#### Crane. #### Cashman. Done and done.

The original Bob Nightengale 'article' includes the line "Well, here we are five years later...but folks still refuse to forgive and forget." As if that's a long time and key players aren't still on the Astros.

You wear an Astros jersey at some of these places, and you can get into a fracas pretty quick

There's no question that the Astros are the heels of MLB these days, although it seems like the intensity of the backlash against them is already fading outside of maybe a couple of markets. But that said, I've been a road fan in a lot of places in different sports, and of course I've been to a million games at Wrigley, which draws a ton of road fans. And I've never encountered or witnessed any genuine hostility. The vast, vast majority of fans are pretty good-natured and even welcoming towards road fans as long as the road fans aren't intentionally being obnoxious. And the ones that aren't good-natured are simply apathetic.

Bad things can happen anywhere, obviously, but I guess I'm saying that I doubt Crane's statement here, at least as far as he intends it to go beyond a very isolated incident or two.

"The vast, vast majority of fans are pretty good-natured and even welcoming towards road fans as long as the road fans aren't intentionally being obnoxious."

my oft-noted first pilgrimage to Wrigley in the summer of 1986 - a celebratory tour of the Mets' inevitable (and last) World Series title to come - had many thousands of Mets fans from the NYC metro area infiltrating Chicago.

this was after the launch of (ill-fated but well-named) People's Express, which offered affordable plane fares to the masses (this was only the second plane trip of my life).

the Bleacher Creatures out there were a little mystified by the volume of Mets fans, but they could not have been friendlier. every query about where we were from was met by comments like, "Wow, you guys are great baseball fans, and by the way your team is awesome."

we were surprised at the degree of Midwestern warmth we experienced (I had never been that far west in my life), and it propelled us into making the weekend of debauchery into an annual thing for years. I even wound up marrying a woman I met in a bar on the 11th annual trip.

the only ######## I ever came across in dozens of games at Wrigley were Cardinals fans, actually. many of them put the "insuff" in "insufferable."

my brother and many buddies of ours went to Seattle for I think the 1990 Final Four March Madness won by Michigan over Seton Hall (they won the tickets in a lottery before the NCAA season even started. I was too busy that year wasting my time on being in love, so I missed the epic trip).

they returned to report on the stunning level of douch ery of both the Michigan and Duke fan bases.

I just saw a video today of a post-game fist fight after a recent Dodgers-Giants game (if you're scoring at home, the Dodgers fan won by TKO over the Panik-jersey-wearing Giants fan). I haven't seen any violence like that at NY/NJ sporting events since the 1980s. still seems weird to me that California seems to be the epicenter of vicious fan-on-fan violence.

in the comments, there was a link from who knows when to a Padres fan cold-cocking a Rockies fan, who went down like a ton of bricks. if his head hit the concrete, he'd have been dead. I guess the game was in Colorado, because the offender immediately got swarmed like ants at a picnic.

I wonder if Crane can distinguish between an apple and an orange. Both are round and edible and a fruit. So they are similar. But they aren't the same thing.

The Yankees weren't "doing it" too. At least as far as the letter and our knowledge goes. The Yankees weren't ignoring directives from the commish. The Yankees didn't create an integrated business strategy which actively supported cheating and the Yankees weren't bashing trash cans.

But other than that it was the same.

Don't even get me started on the lack of real apologies.

the Bleacher Creatures out there were a little mystified by the volume of Mets fans, but they could not have been friendlier. every query about where we were from was met by comments like, "Wow, you guys are great baseball fans, and by the way your team is awesome."

This definitely tracks. Some places you go, and people are delighted that you came to visit their town - KC comes to mind as a place that I visited twice as a road fan and people seemed practically grateful that I chose their town for a pilgrimage (KC people seem very friendly and very enthusiastic about all things KC). Some places are a little more indifferent - I never had a problem in Milwaukee, but Brewers fans definitely give off the vibe that they're not exactly thrilled that Miller Park gets overrun a few times a year by Cubs fans. But Cubs fans at Wrigley always seemed cool with the out-of-towners, and bleacher types especially just want to hang out and have fun anyway, so visiting fans are like their buddies from another college in town for a party. I'm biased but Wrigley always seemed to have pretty good vibes to me, maybe because it is such a destination for so many people and so a substantial percentage of the crowd is always just happy to be there.

I was at Citi Field last week and there were more Braves fans around than I expected, but again, it was all pretty chill even though IMO the Braves contingent were being pretty annoying, nearly a whole section at one point doing the war chant thing. They got some boos from the surrounding fans but nothing hostile. And as I was leaving, a couple of Braves fans were being complete dickheads in the parking lot, running around mocking the Mets fans (the Braves won), but they were mostly ignored.

So again, I think the notion that fans are getting attacked with any significant frequency for showing up in a different jersey is just made up. I've just been to too many games in too many places to think that it's a real thing aside from isolated incidents here and there, i.e., the kind of random bad stuff that just happens sometimes. Even these days there are just very few total psychos out there wanting to start a "fracas".

#4, it's hard to predict how people will behave.
I went to old yankee stadium in '06 wearing a Red Sox shirt and had no problems at all.
I also remember some Padres fans in Fenway Park for an interleague game against San Diego asking, nervously, if it was okay to wear a Padres hat in the park. Everyone around them was mystified at the question. Finally someone told them, "There's only one wrong hat in Fenway Park." Even if you wear that one, if you're not obnoxious, things will probably be fine. Though, I remember a guy who made a point of wearing his yankees hat in Fenway . . to a Sox-Tigers game and multiple people asking him, with some agitation, what the hell are you doing?

The various Arlington stadiums over the years, very often, draw crowds where the visiting fans outnumber the home. Of course they are not all "visitors"; DFW is the kind of place you move to but don't necessarily adopt the local team, instead staying a Red Sox or Tigers or Angels fan. (I've even been to a Cowboys game where 49ers fans were in the majority, which is weird except the Cowboys were playing tepidly at the time and there are a lot of San Francisco fans across the country.)

But everybody's usually super nice, as people have noted. The only bad incident I ever saw was a very drunk Red Sox fan in the Ballpark bleachers, taking swings at people around him, but I really don't know if he was trying to hit Ranger fans or other Sox fans or maybe just his own in-laws.

There are occasional skirmishes in the stands at Angel Stadium; they're rare but not unheard of, although they happen more when the Angels are playing the Dodgers or the Yankees. But there are almost always fights when the Red Sox are in town. If you pose the question "Red Sox vs the field?" in terms of total number of fights, I'm taking the Red Sox. Visiting Red Sox fans are aggressively rowdy.

#### Crane. #### Cashman. Done and done.

This may be the best suggestion.

The Yankees weren't "doing it" too. At least as far as the letter and our knowledge goes. The Yankees weren't ignoring directives from the commish.

As far as the letter and our knowledge goes, the Yankees were absolutely ignoring directives from the commish prior to the last letter, but it's unclear if they continued to ignore directives after that.

Likewise, as far as the latter and our knowledge goes, you can substitute "Astros" for "Yankees" in that sentence and it's still true. Yes, the way they cheated is apples and oranges, but Crane is basically saying they were both fruit and you're saying no, it's apples and oranges. You're making Crane look good here. The Yankees and Astros and Red Sox (at a minimum) were doing it, in the same time frame. The Red Sox (at a minimum) were doing it afterward.

There's no question that the Astros are the heels of MLB these days, although it seems like the intensity of the backlash against them is already fading outside of maybe a couple of markets.

Having Dusty seems to help. Yeah, I hate the Astros, but good to see Dusty having another good year.

And Verlander. I’ve got more reason this year to want to see the Astros lose, since the Angels are actually contending so far. But the other night is was rooting for him. Mostly because well, Astros were up 6-0 so they were going to win anyway, once you accept that it would cool to see another guy get to 4 no-hitters.

Oh well, I just had to settle for an Angel no-hitter.

#4, it's hard to predict how people will behave.
I went to old yankee stadium in '06 wearing a Red Sox shirt and had no problems at all.
I also remember some Padres fans in Fenway Park for an interleague game against San Diego asking, nervously, if it was okay to wear a Padres hat in the park. Everyone around them was mystified at the question. Finally someone told them, "There's only one wrong hat in Fenway Park." Even if you wear that one, if you're not obnoxious, things will probably be fine. Though, I remember a guy who made a point of wearing his yankees hat in Fenway . . to a Sox-Tigers game and multiple people asking him, with some agitation, what the hell are you doing?

I wore my Yankee hat to Fenway all the time in the early 90s. Bleachers too. Never had a problem.

I've also never seen a non-####### visiting fan have a problem at Yankee Stadium (over five decades). Maybe some ribbing, but nothing aggressive.

Cashman has responded:

"I don't think anybody's going to dance to the tune he's singing," Cashman said before the first game of a four-game set against the White Sox at Guaranteed Rate Field on Thursday. "I'd say it's called deflection, him trying to equate probably ... an equivalent of a parking ticket to maybe 162 felonies."
. . .
Cashman pointed out the fact that the letter did not state the Yankees engaged in any real-time conveyance of signs to the hitters during live at-bats, which was the threshold established in the Astros' case in 2017. "I don't think anybody equates it to what the Astros did except for Houston," Cashman said. "[That is] the feedback from everybody in the industry, including Major League Baseball."
. . .
"No one's buying the tune he's singing, no one's going to dance to that tune," Cashman said of Crane's comments. "And the reason I kind of equated it to a parking ticket vs. a felony is, as you recall, they lost multiple years of first-round draft picks, they were fined millions of dollars and decided to fire their manager and general manager because of their actions. There's no equivalent to any of it. So that's why I said it's a deflection. No one's buying it. No one's singing to that dance tune. It is what it is. But I applaud him for trying."

that's a pretty effective response (says someone who isn't particularly enamored with the whole "stealing" topic)

Visiting Red Sox fans are aggressively rowdy.

Having seen the Sawx play on the road in several parks, this tracks. Boston fans on the road are also usually the drunkest people in the park. One suspects correlation....

That said, they aren't as bad as they used to be. Winning a couple WS toned down their inferiority complex somewhat, but they are still the obnxious outliers.

I've also never seen a non-####### visiting fan have a problem at Yankee Stadium (over five decades). Maybe some ribbing, but nothing aggressive.

When the Orioles were making a late September charge against the Yankees in 1996, my book shop manager went up to Yankee Stadium for a 3 game series, wearing an Orioles hat in the bleachers. He had the same experience, with a lot of mocking but nothing threatening.

Phillies fans also have a rep, but in the last game of the 1983 World Series at the Vet, I had an upper deck front row seat right behind the plate. When Murray hit his two home runs, I stood up to face the Phillies fans behind me, screaming and yelling "YESSSSS!" and "EDDIE!" at the top of my lungs. I could've easily been pushed over the railing to meet an early demise, but by that point the Phillies fans were so benumbed that they had no reaction at all.

I believe that would have been ruled justifiable homicide, in most precincts

#16 Sounds like Leaf fans in Ottawa. The Montreal fans are much less obnoxious than the Toronto fans.

Good for Cashman. I like my fruit analogy better than his parking ticket analogy but is he correct in identifying the huge penalties as evidence that the Astros actions were qualitatively different.

The Astros actions were certainly different in that their method was what you get when you're Wile E. Coyote and you order the ACME Sign Stealing Kit. What's this?
A garbage can and a hammer? Let's see, the opposing catcher, pitcher and 1st baseman can all hear the can banging, and being professional baseball players, will take about 1/2 an inning to figure it out and counter it. Then, word gets around the league and what you get is a system that the metrics show was virtually no help in actually winning games. The Astros home/road splits for 2017 bear this out. It's endlessly humorous that people trot out the "but the trash can" argument when it was easily the least effective thing any team was doing.

Now, don't get me wrong, the Astros were arrogant and stupid, and deserved their punishment, and the loss of one of the better managers and all those draft picks has definitely hurt the franchise, but to say anything they accomplished is less tainted than what other cheating teams accomplished in 2017 is just loony.

That’s a bit like complaining the vault didn’t have much money after robbing the bank.

The Astros actions were certainly different in that their method was what you get when you're Wile E. Coyote and you order the ACME Sign Stealing Kit. What's this?
A garbage can and a hammer? Let's see, the opposing catcher, pitcher and 1st baseman can all hear the can banging, and being professional baseball players, will take about 1/2 an inning to figure it out and counter it. Then, word gets around the league and what you get is a system that the metrics show was virtually no help in actually winning games. The Astros home/road splits for 2017 bear this out. It's endlessly humorous that people trot out the "but the trash can" argument when it was easily the least effective thing any team was doing.

I've seen those home/road splits, and it confirms my opinion that this whole episode's significance was way overblown. And I'm a Yankees fan.

Now, don't get me wrong, the Astros were arrogant and stupid, and deserved their punishment, and the loss of one of the better managers and all those draft picks has definitely hurt the franchise,

I'd just leave it at that. The fact that the sign stealing was ineffective doesn't lessen the necessity to use punishment as a deterrent. Who knows, the next time they might figure out a more subtle way of sending signals than banging on a bleeping trash can.