I was heartbroken when the Astros were moved to the American League, but I have to admit the move has worked out well.

Especially well if one hates the Yankees.

Yankees are the first team in MLB history to lose five consecutive LCS.

2022 - lost to Astros
2019 - lost to Astros
2017 - lost to Astros
2012 - lost to Tigers
2010 - lost to Rangers

I developed a formula to compare actual post-season success (WS, LCS, LDS) with expected post-season success based on regular season (wins, playoff berths). I only did this for the Wild Card era (1995 - current)

Up till now, the SF Giants have been the team which most exceeded expected performance.

If the Astros beat the Phillies, they will be #1 in this moving metric.

(data to follow in the next day or two)

I'm an Astro - hater but I can't help but admire their thumping success every year. They are also doing it without breaking the bank. Top 10 in salaries but never top 1-5. Very impressive

And they are doing it in many different ways over the years.

I'd be surprised if we ever see a team make it to the LCS 6x in a row again. That's quite a feat

Very impressive

Having said that

Go Phillies !!!!!!!

No team has knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs more often than the Houston Astros.

4 times - Astros
3 times - Cardinals, Dodgers, Red Sox, Tigers
2 times - Giants, Indians, Angels
1 time - Braves, Pirates, Reds, Royals, Mariners, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Rangers, Rays

Anyone think Harrison Bader's power surge is anything more than SSS? Dude is not a HR hitter. I wonder if the Yankees tapped into something like they did when they acquired Voit

Can the Astros finally slay the Dragon from the (NL) East?

No team has knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs more often than the Houston Astros.

4 times - Astros
3 times - Cardinals, Dodgers, Red Sox, Tigers
2 times - Giants, Indians, Angels
1 time - Braves, Pirates, Reds, Royals, Mariners, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Rangers, Rays

This post warms my heart.

Anyone think Harrison Bader's power surge is anything more than SSS? Dude is not a HR hitter. I wonder if the Yankees tapped into something like they did when they acquired Voit

He'd probably hit 20+ in 650 PA. If he plays a good CF, that's fine.

No team has knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs more often than the Houston Astros.

4 times - Astros
3 times - Cardinals, Dodgers, Red Sox, Tigers
2 times - Giants, Indians, Angels
1 time - Braves, Pirates, Reds, Royals, Mariners, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Rangers, Rays

In fairness you might add a list of the teams the Yankees have sent home for the winter.

8 times - Dodgers
7 times - Giants
6 times - Twins
4 times - Indians / Guardians, A's
3 times - Braves, Royals, Rangers
2 times - Cubs, Reds, Phillies, Cardinals, Orioles, Mariners, Red Sox**
1 time - Pirates, Angels, Mets, Brewers, Padres

** 3 times if you count the 1978 ALE playoff, and 4 times if you count the final day of the 1949 season that was a win-or-go-home for both teams

Anyone think Harrison Bader's power surge is anything more than SSS? Dude is not a HR hitter. I wonder if the Yankees tapped into something like they did when they acquired Voit

No evidence of that yet. He had 0 HR in 49 regular season PA since coming over. Even combined with the playoffs that's still SSS, less than a month's worth of PA.

Obviously he's a not 1 HR / 7 PA guy (rate in 35 playoff PA). Even Aaron Judge's AL record HR total only comes out to about 1 HR / 11 PA. But he's no slap hitter either, career 3% HR rate (league average 3.2%).

If you look at 2022 in total, 5 HR in 313 regular season PA (combined STL and NYY) and another 5 in 35 postseason PA, it comes out to 2.9%.

** 3 times if you count the 1978 ALE playoff, and 4 times if you count the final day of the 1949 season that was a win-or-go-home for both teams

Well, it's a good thing you don't.

Just think of those two games as double asterisks. (smile)

And in terms of the stakes involved they were both no different than last year's one-and-out WC game, where the Red Sox advanced and the Yankees went home.

And in terms of the stakes involved they were both no different than last year's one-and-out WC game, where the Red Sox advanced and the Yankees went home.

But the 1978 game was a regular season contest and last year's game was a postseason game. So, the Yankees did not knock the Red Sox out of the postseason in 1978 because the Red Sox never got to the postseason. And these distinctions matter. The 1978 Red Sox finished second in the American League East. The 2005 Red Sox finished tied for first.

Now, if you want to list all of the times the Yankees knocked the Red Sox out of qualifying for the postseason, and vice versa, I'm guessing there are a lot more dates than just 1978 and 1949. Of course, that's pretty far afield from the original list you were working off.

But the 1978 game was a regular season contest and last year's game was a postseason game. So, the Yankees did not knock the Red Sox out of the postseason in 1978 because the Red Sox never got to the postseason. And these distinctions matter. The 1978 Red Sox finished second in the American League East. The 2005 Red Sox finished tied for first.

I understand the distinction, and that's why I included those two years only as a footnote, and kept the "real" total at 2.

Now, if you want to list all of the times the Yankees knocked the Red Sox out of qualifying for the postseason, and vice versa, I'm guessing there are a lot more dates than just 1978 and 1949. Of course, that's pretty far afield from the original list you were working off.

Other than 1949 and 1978, there weren't any such years. The closest would've been 1904, when the Boston Americans / Red Sox entered the final day of the season with a 1.5 game lead over the Highlanders / Yankees. They played a doubleheader and the Bostons won the first game on a 9th inning Chesbro wild pitch. That clinched the pennant, but if the New Yorks had won that first game, then the second game would've been similar to that last game of 1949, when the two teams met head-to-head with identical 96-57 records.

2005 was a special case, but like 1904, that race was decided in the next-to-last game, and not by the final game of the season. Their final records were identical, but by winning on Saturday the Yankees clinched the division by virtue of their 10-9 head-to-head record over the course of the season.

Anyone think Harrison Bader's power surge is anything more than SSS? Dude is not a HR hitter. I wonder if the Yankees tapped into something like they did when they acquired Voit

He's not a power hitter, but he does have a bit of power, his 162 game average for his career is 16 hr, and a lot of those games are where he was a defensive replacement (which is why he only has 533 pa per 162 games played) As Snapper in 10 points out, he's probably a 20 hr hitter if he plays a full season, and maybe he's 30 over the next few years as power replaces speed.

I think the Yankees found something to unlock Bader's power. He's awfully old to find another gear, but 5 HR in a handful of games against playoff pitching strikes me as some kind of breakthrough. For years, people waited for Bader to figure it out in STL. He wasn't bad but he wasnt good either. He struggled mightily against righties especially in the SLG category. Now he hits 4 HR against righties under the brightest lights.

We shall see

No team has knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs more often than the Houston Astros.

4 times - Astros

That's especially noteworthy since the Astros have only been in the AL for 10 years.

The Yankees could really use upgrades at SS and 3B. Their lineup depth is shallower than most of the teams making noise in the postseason, and if Judge leaves (a longshot), they will be below-average nearly everywhere except Gleyber and Stanton, and those guys aren't exactly the stone-coldiest of locks themselves.

The Yankees could really use upgrades at SS and 3B.

A healthy DJ and a full season of Peraza might help, and maybe even their #1 prospect Volpe, though he may need more AAA experience. But they've got to get rid of Donaldson, even if it means swallowing part of his contract.

Their lineup depth is shallower than most of the teams making noise in the postseason, and if Judge leaves (a longshot), they will be below-average nearly everywhere except Gleyber and Stanton, and those guys aren't exactly the stone-coldiest of locks themselves.

Sad but true. It would also help if their bullpen could stay healthy for more than a few months in a stretch.

Haha I just read the Yankees made their coaches (and maybe also players?) watch some video of Kevin Millar etc from before Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. That hilarious and awesome.

Up till now, the SF Giants have been the team which most exceeded expected performance.

The Buster Posey Giants are right there with the Hornsby-then-Frisch Cardinals of 1926-34 in terms of squeezing maximum results out of minimum supporting star power.

Other than 1949 and 1978, there weren't any such years.

That's only if you limit to years one made the postseason and the other didn't. But I'm sure there are also times a sixth-place Red Sox team eliminated a second-place Yankee team.

In fairness you might add a list of the teams the Yankees have sent home for the winter.

The subject was the Yankees getting knocked out of the playoffs, so no.

I can understand why in this moment why a Yankees fan would look to mostly ancient history in a bit of childish defensiveness over their recent struggles to change the subject in their favor. Why you, as a professed Orioles fan, would do this is comical.

I developed a formula to compare actual post-season success (WS, LCS, LDS) with expected post-season success based on regular season (wins, playoff berths). I only did this for the Wild Card era (1995 - current)

Up till now, the SF Giants have been the team which most exceeded expected performance.

If the Astros beat the Phillies, they will be #1 in this moving metric.

That's especially impressive given that the Astros were known as playoff underachievers for the Bagwell-Biggio era.

No team has knocked the Yankees out of the playoffs more often than the Houston Astros.

4 times - Astros
3 times - Cardinals, Dodgers, Red Sox, Tigers
2 times - Giants, Indians, Angels
1 time - Braves, Pirates, Reds, Royals, Mariners, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Rangers, Rays

That's a great post.

I can understand why in this moment why a Yankees fan would look to mostly ancient history in a bit of childish defensiveness over their recent struggles to change the subject in their favor.

I've probably spent more words on the subject of the Yankees' shortcomings over the past dozen or so years than any other Primate. Usually the only response is "shut up with your sense of entitlement", which is about what I'd expect from a forum made up of mostly of Red Sox fans and other assorted communists.

Why you, as a professed Orioles fan, would do this is comical.

Baseball isn't politics. People are allowed to have more than one favorite team, strange as that might seem to someone who evidently thinks of baseball as some sort of a blood sport. And wouldn't surprise me if you suddenly became an Astros fan the minute the Yankees knocked off the Guardians, but I'm sure you'd say "that's different".

But they've got to get rid of Donaldson, even if it means swallowing part of his contract.

Donaldson put up 2.4 WAR in 132 games, so he wasn’t nearly as bad as some contend. If LeMahieu is healthy enough, I suspect he does see more time at 3rd base, unless Rizzo opts out and DJ ends up as the primary 1st baseman. However, Donaldson’s $21.5M 2023 price tag makes a trade difficult.

I can understand why in this moment why a Yankees fan would look to mostly ancient history in a bit of childish defensiveness over their recent struggles to change the subject in their favor.

The Yankees did win as many 2022 playoff games as the Cardinals, Braves, Mets & Dodgers combined, so it seems a bit strained to attempt to make them the poster boys for postseason futility, especially since they weren’t even pre-season favorites to win their division. 2022 ended with some disappointment, but the Yankees look to be in better shape heading into 2023 than they were going into 2022. Time will tell on that.

Baseball isn't politics. People are allowed to have more than one favorite team

Isn't this backwards? If a player from not my sports team joins my team and all else remaining equal I will start rooting for them. In politics if someone from not my team joins my team and all else remains equal I am not sure I root for them. For me in politics it is not my team vs your team it is my beliefs/view points against beliefs/view points that are opposing. If my team started to not have my beliefs/view points then they are not my team.

Donaldson put up 2.4 WAR in 132 games, so he wasn’t nearly as bad as some contend.

Only if you believe DRS. 1.6 WAR using UZR.

Baseball isn't politics. People are allowed to have more than one favorite team

Isn't this backwards? If a player from not my sports team joins my team and all else remaining equal I will start rooting for them. In politics if someone from not my team joins my team and all else remains equal I am not sure I root for them. For me in politics it is not my team vs your team it is my beliefs/view points against beliefs/view points that are opposing. If my team started to not have my beliefs/view points then they are not my team.

Also, no you're not. You get one favorite. You want to passively root for another one club, possibly in the other league, fine. But it's just one favorite per customer.

You get one favorite. You want to passively root for another one club, possibly in the other league, fine. But it's just one favorite per customer.

I think that’s more of a widely accepted preference than an iron clad rule, although I will agree that rooting for two teams in the same division is pushing the limits of eccentricity.

Anyone think Harrison Bader's power surge is anything more than SSS? Dude is not a HR hitter. I wonder if the Yankees tapped into something like they did when they acquired Voit

If you look at Bader's HR totals each year since he broke in, extrapolated to full-time play (550 AB), here's what you get:
2017--19
2018--17
2019--19
2020--18
2021--24
2022--9 (there's your outlier, but if you include postseason, he's at 17hr/550ab)

Bader's issues have been (a) playing time, due to the Cardinals constantly moving OFs in and out of the lineup over the last several years (he's never had 400 ab in a season), and (b) injuries.

Power-wise he reminds me a bit of prime Michael Brantley, who hit 22, 20 and 17 homers in full seasons, but who also missed a lot of time.

Interesting: one of Bader's top-ten comps through his age-28 season is Jose Bautista, who'd come off a four-year stretch of hitting 16, 15, 15 and 13 homers.

In his age-29 season, of course, he hit 54 homers, and followed that up with another 43 homers. I imagine the Yankees would take something along those lines from Bader.

In all seriousness, having watched him over his whole career, he's very streaky, and when he gets going it looks like he's finally "figured it out," and visions of a strong bat in center field start dancing in your head. He's shown the ability to smoke home runs this postseason, which is nothing new, but he's never been able to sustain it.

Take the defense, and the energy (which is a lot of fun as a fan and seems to go over well with his teammates, too), and with full-time play I could see him being a 20-homer guy most seasons. Could he hit 30 one year? Maybe, in a career year. Don't see him as ever a 40-homer guy unless something really changes.

For instance, in 2021 he homered three times in six games in May, three times in four games in July, and then homered in back-to-back-back games in September (he hit 7 overall in September 2021)---but also hit zero home runs in the month of August.

#25 (and also going off the Yankees recent ALCS failures),

The full calculations per my formulae for the years 1995-2002 show that if you count every season evenly, the highest regular season success a.k.a. expected postseason success would be

NYY
LAD
BOS
ATL
STL
HOU
...(lowest two are)
BAL
KC
---
and the teams with highest actual postseason success by counting LDS winner = 1, pennant winner = 2.5, WS winner = 5 (not cumulative, that is, 5 total) are

NYY
(gap)
BOS
STL
HOU if they win in 22
ATL
SF
HOU if they lose in 22
--
PIT the *only* team with no LDS wins / LCS appearances

By most exceeding predicted success, we have
NYY
MIA
SFG
STL
KC
-- (lowest are)
OAK
MIN
LAD

Of course the Twins had much surprising success shortly before the WC era. The As', well, success if we go back to 72-74.

This is all true plus Busch stadium is hard to hit homers in BUT, he had three month layoff, had a few games in sept to get his timing back and in a new league against the best pitchers in that league, he smoked 5 HRs in an AL playoff series that has had very few HRs. Could be a hot streak but it feels like more than that.

In all of the AL games this post season there have been 36 HRs, Bader has hit 5 of them. If you look at the HR leaders in both leagues it's a who's who of big boppers and Bader.

Now, if RECENT is more important, let;s say we weight 2022 as three times that of 1995 with everything proportional iun between, the rank of highest success above predicted is

HOU if they win in 2022
SFG
BOS
PHI they win in 2022
KC
HOU if they lose in 2022
STL
-
lowest three would still be OAK, MIN, LAD

So, whether you feel the Yankees have had much more or much less than their share of success, depends on if you were a Yankee fan/nonfan from 1996 onward, or only from 2010 onwward. Duh.

You get one favorite. You want to passively root for another one club, possibly in the other league, fine. But it's just one favorite per customer.

I think that’s more of a widely accepted preference than an iron clad rule, although I will agree that rooting for two teams in the same division is pushing the limits of eccentricity.

So there's the Language Police, and now there's the Allowable Rooting Police. Is there a committee here to run one's rooting preferences by? This is vital information that I need to have.

I've been rooting for the Yankees since before any of you were born, and I've rooted for the Orioles as my backup team since the days of Frank the Dodger Killer. And I'll always have even more backup teams during the postseason, with the current one being the Astros.

----------------

Now, if RECENT is more important, let;s say we weight 2022 as three times that of 1995 with everything proportional iun between, the rank of highest success above predicted is

HOU if they win in 2022

Wait, does this apply if the Astros win a 7 game series against a big underdog, or does it apply only if the Astros keep running the table? The latter makes perfect sense, the former not so much, as prior to the postseason they were second only to the Dodgers in the betting odds.

If Houston barely beats the Phillies, I can think of several teams that beat them in outperforming expectations. The 1997 and 2003 Marlins, the 2002 Angels, the 2014 Royals, etc. But maybe I'm not putting enough weight on those first two sweeps.

so 15 of the other 29 franchises have won pennants since the last time the Yankees did - and I can't decide if that's more or fewer than I would have expected. (and no way I don't make at least one mistake !)

World Series appearances/pennants, 2010-22 (last appearance for zeroes in parentheses):

4 - Astros
3 - Giants, Dodgers
2 - Rangers, Cardinals, Red Sox, Royals
1 - Mets, Tigers, Cubs, Indians, Nationals, Rays, Braves, Phillies
0 - Yankees (2009), Rockies (2007), White Sox (2005), Marlins (2003), Angels (2002), Diamondbacks (2001), Padres (1998), Blue Jays (1993), Reds (1990), A's (1990), Twins (1987), Orioles (1983), Brewers (1982), Pirates (1979), Mariners (never).

9 teams have fans who have turned 30 who don't remember a pennant win (precocious Padres fans aside)

I've probably spent more words on the subject of the Yankees' shortcomings over the past dozen or so years than any other Primate. Usually the only response is "shut up with your sense of entitlement", which is about what I'd expect from a forum made up of mostly of Red Sox fans and other assorted communists.

So when a thread titled "Astros win ALCS 2022" includes a comment about the Astros recently being a fairly consistent thorn in the side of the Yankees, your response about the Yankees previously having been a thorn in the side of other teams was brought up "in fairness" rather than from a sense of entitlement. Precious.

(In case it wasn't clear, it was the "in fairness" part that I was responding to in #24.)

The Yankees did win as many 2022 playoff games as the Cardinals, Braves, Mets & Dodgers combined, so it seems a bit strained to attempt to make them the poster boys for postseason futility, especially since they weren’t even pre-season favorites to win their division. 2022 ended with some disappointment, but the Yankees look to be in better shape heading into 2023 than they were going into 2022. Time will tell on that.

The Yankees have lost as many 2022 playoff games as the Astros, Phillies, Mets, and Cardinals combined, despite having had a bye. I mean, this is all a silly way of describing it either way. Regardless, they're definitely not the poster boys for postseason futility. I mean, they've been regularly making the postseason, and frequently advancing. That's no small feat. I can't dispute the Astros have been giving them postseason troubles - as the Astros have been doing for a lot of teams recently. Yankees fans have a lot to savor from 2022, and they need not get defensive about recently having been inferior to any particular team.

They weren't the pundit pick for the division - most went with the Blue Jays, and of the remainder I think the majority picked the Rays - but IIRC the preseason betting lines had the Yankees as the divisional favorites. With the shortened spring training I don't know how much any of the preseason predictions were credible, be it Vegas or Verducci. But I think the Yankees were pretty much a consensus to make the playoffs but not to win it, and they have at least met those expectations.

As you know I don't share your optimism that they will sign Judge, but I'm pretty sure they will reload one way or another. The Blue Jays and Rays aren't going away quite yet, and the Orioles are on the ascending part of the fabled success cycle, so I don't expect the Yankees to just settle for some retreads and hope for the best.

no way I don't make at least one mistake !

Twins is (1991)

Re 41: So exactly half of the teams (including *gulp* mine) have won a pennant in the last 13 years...and none of them are the Yankees!

Reds (1990), A's (1990)

Whodathunk that, 32 years later, neither team would've returned to the World Series (and considering they lost 202 games between them in 2022, it's not likely they will anytime soon)? The last man on either side to retire was Larkin, in 2004 (unless we're counting Canseco, who was making cameo appearance in the indy leagues until 2018!).

But I'm sure there are also times a sixth-place Red Sox team eliminated a second-place Yankee team.

That has never happened, unless you count a second place Yankee team that finished 15 games out like in 1970. I'm not going to calculate when that team got officially eliminated and who delivered the death blow. But in none of the times in which a Yankee teams finished no more than 2 games out did they play the Sox in the final series.

Is there a committee here to run one's rooting preferences by? This is vital information that I need to have.

I just gave it to you and this is the thanks I get.

That has never happened, unless you count a second place Yankee team that finished 15 games out like in 1970.

I wasn't even limiting it to second-place Yankee teams. Just the final loss that knocked them out of official contention. If you're including regular season games, then I'm any game is fair.

As you know I don't share your optimism that they will sign Judge . . .

In theory, if some team offers Judge $500M/10 years, that might give the Yankees some pause, but such an offer seems quite unlikely. Realistically, the Yankees can match or beat any reasonable offer, and since Judge is more valuable to the Yankees than any other team, and can make much more off-field income with the Yankees, a deal seems to be in the interest of both parties. We’ll know for sure in a few weeks.

As I pointed out in game thread it's easy to root for more than one team. My first love is the Cardinals. But I've rooted for the white Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the dodgers over the years. I even rooted for the cubs in the 80s when I went to many of their games (never against rhe Cards!)

I don't think it's uncommon for people to have multiple rooting interests given that people live in many different cities.

In theory, if some team offers Judge $500M/10 years, that might give the Yankees some pause, but such an offer seems quite unlikely. Realistically, the Yankees can match or beat any reasonable offer, and since Judge is more valuable to the Yankees than any other team, and can make much more off-field income with the Yankees, a deal seems to be in the interest of both parties.

Right, but if they do, they still have gaping holes at 1B (assuming Rizzo declines his option), 3B, SS, C, and LF or DH (depending on where you slot Stanton).

Even if Rizzo declines his option, the Yankees might still be able to retain his services, if he can be had for something not too far above the option price. A healthy LeMahieu could address the 1st or 3rd base situations, or perhaps half of each, too.

Is there a committee here to run one's rooting preferences by? This is vital information that I need to have.

I just gave it to you and this is the thanks I get.

I demand a notarized invitation to your next committee meeting.

---------------------

As I pointed out in game thread it's easy to root for more than one team. My first love is the Cardinals. But I've rooted for the white Sox, the Yankees, the Braves, the dodgers over the years. I even rooted for the cubs in the 80s when I went to many of their games (never against rhe Cards!)

I don't think it's uncommon for people to have multiple rooting interests given that people live in many different cities.

Besides the Yankees and the Orioles, I've also rooted at various points for the Tigers, the Blue Jays, the Astros, the A's, the Indians, the Mariners, the White Sox, the Brewers,the Royals, and even the Red Sox. And that's not counting the WS, where in certain years I've rooted for the Reds (1956), the Dodgers (1959), the Phillies (1964), the Mets (1985), and the Cubs (2003), though except for the 59 Dodgers it was only during the pennant races or LCS. If all I ever rooted for was one team, I'd spend most of my Octobers being disgusted, and that goes against my nature.

Besides the Yankees and the Orioles, I've also rooted at various points for the Tigers, the Blue Jays, the Astros, the A's, the Indians, the Mariners, the White Sox, the Brewers,the Royals, and even the Red Sox. And that's not counting the WS, where in certain years I've rooted for the Reds (1956), the Dodgers (1959), the Phillies (1964), the Mets (1985), and the Cubs (2003), though except for the 59 Dodgers it was only during the pennant races or LCS. If all I ever rooted for was one team, I'd spend most of my Octobers being disgusted, and that goes against my nature.

And yet, you can only have one favorite. It's right there in the definition.

Are there really people arguing that you can't be a fan of multiple teams within the same sport/league?

Are there really people arguing that you can't be a fan of multiple teams within the same sport/league?

Lots of people hold that philosophy. SoSH seems to be a True Believer in it.

Are there really people arguing that you can't be a fan of multiple teams within the same sport/league?

I'll agree that you probably have one clear favorite, but I certainly have other teams I like to see do well. I guess, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being diehard, I would be:

Houston-10
Detroit-3
St. Louis-1.5

I've liked Detroit and St. Louis since I was a kid (50+ years ago), but I can't legitimately call myself a "fan" of those teams. I would think we all have a soft spot for some teams other than our main squad.

Are there really people arguing that you can't be a fan of multiple teams within the same sport/league?

People can and should cheer for any team they want, for any reason they want. Certain patterns of fandom, however, do open oneself up to charges of, for example, jumping on the bandwagon, not being a "true" fan, only being a fan of teams that do well and such.

Typically, again there are no real rules, but typically people are not fans of multiple mutual rivals, especially in one division/conference. Typically people cheer for teams where they live or lived. Having a large number of "favorite" teams, especially not where one lives or who are rivals to other favorite teams is often the sign of someone who is team shopping for victories. Not always though, of course.

The other thing is that you can like or dislike a team as the roster changes. If I had to choose a "favorite" team from the entire history of baseball, it'd probably be the 1934 Cardinals, the Gas House Gang with Diz, Paul, Ducky, Pepper, the Flash, Leo, etc. And if I had to pick a team in history that I loathed more than any other, it'd be the 1985 Cardinals of Whiney Whitey, Coleman, TOOdah, Andujar, and pretty much everyone else other than Ozzie. Seeing them blow up in the 7th game of that year's WS was the greatest moment of baseball schadenfreude I've ever experienced. The only constant "laundry" I root for is the Yankees and the Orioles.

Jolly #40; I am only counting what they win (WS, LCS); not *how* they win it. Flags fly forever, regardless of how you get them.

Based on the Astros 2022 regular season (106 wins, div title), I have their "expected result" in the postseason to be in between a LDS victory and an AL pennant; so a WS appearance but losing is still a bit above expectations. Table below.

actual WS win value of 5.0
pennant but no WS value is 2.5
LDS win but WLS loss is value of 1

expected results were
LAD 2.5 HOU 1.5 (so the Dodgers *really* undershot their hopes, no kidding)
NYY 1.2 ATL 1.0 NYM 0.9
STL 0.5 TOR 0.4 CLE 0.4 SEA 0.3 SD 0.3 PHI .25 TB .25 MIL .05

Are there really people arguing that you can't be a fan of multiple teams within the same sport/league?

Are you really arguing you can have more than one favorite team? I'm stunned this is even a debate.

You don't call yourself cards(and some other teams, depending on my mood)fanboy.

The only constant "laundry" I root for is the Yankees and the Orioles.

Let's adjust the end of the 1982 season.

Game 162 (since you can't have any more 163s): Yankees and O's square off tied for first. Who ya rootin' for?

That's your favorite.

Let's adjust the end of the 1982 season.

Game 162 (since you can't have any more 163s): Yankees and O's square off tied for first. Who ya rootin' for?

That's your favorite.

Change that to Cubs/White Sox in the WS, my answer is neither. Or more accurately, it might be one or the other, depending on many factors unknown at this time. The generic "all things being equal" answer is neither.

Dealing with the substance of this:

(1) The Astros were very, very good; had good injury luck in their pitching staff in the sense that they key hands were on deck right now; and do a damn good job developing pitching. The Yankees probably were just as good or better than them in June; they were clearly the worse team now. The Yankees deserved to lose.

(2) The Yankees need to spend more. Not in a Heyman "BUY ALL THE HORSES" way, but they have by far the highest revenues in the league. Ownership is cheap. A lot of these "gaps" are because the Yankees aren't willing even to bid for players that are fair/good value in the interest of keeping payroll+tax spend down.

(3) The amateur scouting / MiLB development for position players continues to trail other teams, and it continues to be a drag on the main squad. The reason there are all these gaps that need plugging is that the Yankees aren't turning out MLBers.

(4) For pitchers, on the other hand, the system continues to produce a couple of MLB guys every year. Don't screw that up.

(5) The Major League scouting / player development is great, but they rely on it too heavily. Yeah, its cool you can turn up useful parts that aren't being used right by other teams, and turning a 29 year old castoff into an above average player for a season or two is a real coup, but you know what's better than that? 23 year old guys coming up who can still run and pick it and have star potential.

The only constant "laundry" I root for is the Yankees and the Orioles.

Let's adjust the end of the 1982 season.

Game 162 (since you can't have any more 163s): Yankees and O's square off tied for first. Who ya rootin' for?

First, that'd take a lot of adjustment, since the Yankees finished a distant 5th that year, while the Orioles entered the final day of the season tied with the Brewers for the division lead. I went to that entire final 4 game series and was obviously pulling for the Weavers.

That said, you could've picked a much more recent example: The 2012 DS where the Yankees beat the O's in a series that went the 5 game limit. And in that series I was totally split down the middle, and would've been just as pleased to have seen an Orioles win. The X factors that year were Raul Ibanez and Manny Machado, and it was impossible for me to root against either of them.

A healthy LeMahieu could address the 1st or 3rd base situations, or perhaps half of each, too.

DJ in 2021-22 had a 103 OPS+ in 1220 PA - and he turns 34 at the next All-Star break. his career OPS+ is 102.

he had a couple of really good years, but seems to be reverting back to sea level and he is at a dangerous age.

The idea that a serious sports fan would claim two teams as their "favorite" then not have a rooting interest in a playoff series is insanity to me. At that point you are just front running and that's fine if that's your thing but don't pretend you are anything other than a fairweather fan.

That doesn't mean you don't root for players and in situations teams. Like I was rooting for the Phillies over the Padres because the Red Sox weren't anywhere close to the series. But that's obviously different.

The idea that a serious sports fan would claim two teams as their "favorite" then not have a rooting interest in a playoff series is insanity to me. At that point you are just front running and that's fine if that's your thing but don't pretend you are anything other than a fairweather fan.

I see that the Allowable Rooting Police Committee (Chowdah Chapter) is still in session. (smile)

The idea that a serious sports fan would claim two teams as their "favorite" then not have a rooting interest in a playoff series is insanity to me. At that point you are just front running and that's fine if that's your thing but don't pretend you are anything other than a fairweather fan.

Not following.

Not following.

He's saying if your two favorites meet, you have to root for one, and that one is the team you really root for. Just translating; not taking sides here.

He's saying if your two favorites meet, you have to root for one, and that one is the team you really root for.

I don't see how, with what I quoted. That explanation makes no sense.

Again, all things being equal, if the Cubs and White Sox met in the WS, I would not have a rooting favorite. But things are rarely equal, and I could clearly see rooting for one of the other depending on circumstances. For example:

It's 2016. The Sox having broken their curse in 2005, I would root for the Cubs, all else being equal. If it were 2004, I would probably root for the Sox, because the 2004 Cubs were a very unlikable team. And lots of other factors can be in play. What if a longtime, long suffering favorite like Ryne Sandberg or Jose Abreu is on the team? I fail to see how that makes one a frontrunner or fair-weather fan.

I fail to see how that makes one a frontrunner or fair-weather fan.

How about it makes you a fan of neither team? Fan = fanatic. You're just a baseball fan that decides who to root for on multiple levels, and have a modest preference for the Chicago teams.

My nephews could be playing 3b and SS for the other team and I'd still root for the Yankees. Heck, if I were a major leaguer I'd probably secretly root for the Yankees against my team.

By definition, there is of course always going to be a "favorite" team, although that favorite team status is malleable based upon the desires of the person who is making that decision.

But it doesn't mean you can't be a fan of multiple teams. Every year I'm a Cardinal fan, but every year I have a few other teams I like and root for also, it makes me more invested in the sport as a whole when I have multiple rooting interests.

And when I was 25 years old, I used to use comments like "fair weather fan" as an insult, and now I realize, that is just a simplistic view espoused by idiots. I have more teams I root for than teams I root against or even teams that I'm neutral towards, and pretty much every few years those teams change. Yes of course (as my handle points out) I have a favorite team, but it doesn't mean I don't have other teams I like. And yes some are rival teams.

I rooted for Seattle this year, when I was in my teens, I despised Seattle, to the point that my friend and I would do insulting contests, and he would say "you are a Mariner" fan to rile me up. (this was well before Griffey or Ichiro of course) As a kid, my favorite AL team was the Red Sox or A's.... but this was before I actually met Red Sox fans and they turned me off of them.

Generally speaking now, I'm a fan of about 10 teams each season with alternating allegiances depending on the makeup, recent success, fans and many other factors, obviously Cardinals top my list, but that doesn't mean I don't root for other teams (including pretty much every team that has been in the Cardinals division at some point in time in the past decade...yes that includes the Cubs) Fandom isn't lifetime, it's just being a fan of something. I like comic books, my interests has waned and bounced back over the years, I like Star Wars my interest has done the same their, same with reading books or playing video games or whatever, it's not a lifetime commitment, it's what is enjoyable and gets your motor running at this point in time in your life.

As it stands I'm rooting for the Phillies, ten years ago you would never have heard me say that. 10 years from now I might not feel the same way. And it's not that I hate the Astros, was a huge fan of theirs for years also, but right now my rooting interest is for the Phillies (I almost always lean to the NL teams in the world series--- Dodgers and Giants are about the only exceptions to that---unless they are playing the Yankees)

Fan = fanatic.

And that doesn't really line up with the actual connotation of fan. 90% of the people who claim to be fans, are just people who root for a team, they aren't fanatics, they are just people who root for a team. The connotation in America of a fan is person who roots for a team, sure lesser sports like soccer have a higher percentage of insane morons rooting like rioters and fanatics, but just because that is what the term is short for, doesn't mean the connotation in a sane world is about a fanatic.

How about it makes you a fan of neither team? Fan = fanatic. You're just a baseball fan that decides who to root for on multiple levels, and have a modest preference for the Chicago teams.

My nephews could be playing 3b and SS for the other team and I'd still root for the Yankees. Heck, if I were a major leaguer I'd probably secretly root for the Yankees against my team.

All that nonsense aside, how does that make me a frontrunner?

All that nonsense aside, how does that make me a frontrunner?

I don't think it makes you a frontrunner. At the same time, I can't in any way relate to the the idea that you have two teams you root for equally. It just makes no sense to me, and I would imagine very few sports fans have such pure dual loyalties.

if some team offers Judge $500M/10 years

When A-Rod got his $252MM/10 yr deal in 2000, I half-jokingly said there would be a billion-dollar contract within 25 years. Well, barring hyper-inflation (keep votin' D, people) that's not going to happen...but that $252MM is now ~$420MM in today's money, so, say, a $750MM/15 year deal doesn't seem impossible.

I'm a Yankees and Mets fan.
Per game,i root depending on who needs it more when they play during the regular season.
Or if I am pulling for a specific pitcher (yes Degrom, no Cole)
I'll worry about it when they play again in the WS. In 2000 I rooted for the yankees (I hated Bobby valentine).
This year I woulda rooted for the Mets in a h2h ws.

But if either wins, I'm thrilled.

I am a fan of both the Vikings and 49ers (to switch sports). When they play though I absolutely pick a favorite. It is typically the 49ers, but sometimes, especially when the Vikings might have a chance to get to and gain the Superbowl victory that has eluded them(sigh), then I will favor the Vikings. It is never just a tie, and I also can't really understand such a thing. Doesn't make it impossible, just weird from my perspective.

Per game,i root depending on who needs it more when they play during the regular season.

Been there done that (not in baseball, but in football)

Edit: and see post 79 for another confirmation of that concept.

But if either wins, I'm thrilled.

And that is also something, I was happy for the Cubs winning their WS, I was happy for the Astros and the White Sox also when it happened. Rooting interest is fluid, and there is nothing wrong when you root for your rival, heck a rival could be thought of as your younger brother in some cases (unless you are European, then then only option apparently is to think of your rival as the third reich...seriously, those people are unhinged when it comes to sports--at least as it's portrayed in the media)

I just do not get the concept that it's impossible to root for more than one team. I root for both Star Wars and Star Trek, Marvel and DC, Mountain Dew and Mello Yellow.

Did Richard Williams root for Venus or Serena when they played each other?

I just do not get the concept that it's impossible to root for more than one team.

No one has said it's impossible to root for one team. We've said it's impossible to have more than one favorite. And I'll stand by that, despite the comments from reech and Misirlou. If you profess to have two favorite teams, you don't have any.

The yankees and mets play in 2 different leagues and do not go head to head in the standings.its not really a competition. What the mets do has no bearing on the yankees success , unless they are in the world series.

In other sports where the teams are on the same division (ie islanders, devils and rangers) or nba (knicks and nets), I can understand actively rooting against one or the other.

No one has said it's impossible to root for one team. We've said it's impossible to have more than one favorite. And I'll stand by that, despite the comments from reech and Misirlou. If you profess to have two favorite teams, you don't have any.


Then I guess Richard Williams didn't have any daughters.

I don't think it makes you a frontrunner. At the same time, I can't in any way relate to the the idea that you have two teams you root for equally. It just makes no sense to me, and I would imagine very few sports fans have such pure dual loyalties.

One city, 2 sad sack teams. It is probably unique, and even amongst Chicago fans, it's unusual. I grew up with my father's father taking me to Cubs games, and my mother's uncle taking me to Sox games.

I think it's pretty easy to have more than one favorite and there probably a lot of different combinations of how one likes multiple teams.

I am a Cubs fan. They are the one team throughout the decades that I have rooted for but as i moved around the country inhave liked other teams as well. I rooted for the Phillies, Brewers, and Nationals over the years as well as the Cubs.

I rooted for the Phillies, Brewers, and Nationals over the years as well as the Cubs.

Did you root for them against the Cubs?

I did not. But then again throughout most of my cub fandom they sucked so it didn't matter. Which made it easier to like and follow the local home team.

Here's my amazing streak. I move to New York in 1996 and the Yankees win the world series with a talented young team. I then move to Philadelphia in 1998. They start off bad but they turn it around and start winning a bunch of games. At the end of 2003 I move to Wisconsin and once again they are terrible but soon start winning a bunch. I then move back to New York for 2008 and 2009 and once again the Yankees win the world series. I then move to DC and once again they are a terrible team that starts winning a bunch. In 2014 i take a job in Baltimore and the Orioles get to the AlCS for the first time since 1997. I then move to Atlanta at the end of 2016. They are a terrible team but quickly turn it around and go to the playoffs 5 straight times and win the WS.


The only team i couldn't get to the LCS while i was there or soon after was the Brewers. I am the cause for greatness in numerous cities. Hell i even briefly lived in Dallas in 1996 and that was the first year they ever made the playoffs.

In theory, if some team offers Judge $500M/10 years, that might give the Yankees some pause, but such an offer seems quite unlikely. Realistically, the Yankees can match or beat any reasonable offer, and since Judge is more valuable to the Yankees than any other team, and can make much more off-field income with the Yankees, a deal seems to be in the interest of both parties. We’ll know for sure in a few weeks.

Wouldn't this exact argument have been made for Cano?

What money is Judge going to make off the field in NYC that he can't in LA? Is he giving tours of the Empire State Building or something?

1948 is a near playoff example of the Red Sox knocking out the yankees. The yankees came into Fenway to play the Sox in games 153 and 154. The two teams were tied at 94-58 both one game behind the Indians. The Red Sox beat the yankees both games with Ted Williams going 4-6 with a homer, 3 doubles and 4 walks total in the two games and the Indians losing game 154 to the Tigers resulting in a playoff game between the Sox and Indians that the Indians won.

Right, 1948 was close but not quite, since by the end of game 153 the Yankees had been eliminated, and game 154 mattered only to the Red Sox for pennant purposes. The only times the Red Sox eliminated the Yankees in a game where it was win or go home for both teams was the 2004 ALCS game 7 and the 2021 WC game.

Williams was on fire during that weekend series, but then in the playoff game his only hit was an 8th inning single with 2 outs and nobody on, when the Red Sox were down by 7 to 3.

Right, 1948 was close but not quite, since by the end of game 153 the Yankees had been eliminated, and game 154 mattered only to the Red Sox for pennant purposes. The only times the Red Sox eliminated the Yankees in a game where it was win or go home for both teams was the 2004 ALCS game 7 and the 2021 WC game.

When was the requirement that it had to be a do-or-die for both teams get added into the mix?

Yeah, doesn't fit the dipsomaniac Dave Egan narrative that Ted didn't hit in the clutch.

When was the requirement that it had to be a do-or-die for both teams get added into the mix?

It's just an added bit of trivia. Don't be offended, it was nothing personal.

Don't be offended,

Not offended, just amused. RTG posted a list of the teams that had knocked the Yanks out of the playoffs. You changed that to include the teams the NYY knocked out, added the times they beat the Sox out of getting to the postseason, then told, Rough, "No that one doesn't count."

Except I didn't "change" RTG's list. I simply added a new list. What's the problem with that?