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Friday, August 30, 2019

Athletics handed winning run because a fielder accidentally jumped into their dugout

In the ninth inning of a game with significant wild card race implications, it was a pop-out on a foul ball that handed the Oakland Athletics the winning run on Thursday.

Facing the Kansas City Royals with runners on second and third with one out, A’s second baseman Corban Joseph hit a foul pop-up that drifted toward his own dugout on the third base line. Royals third-baseman Cheslor Cuthbert easily reached the ball’s landing spot, then extended out and caught the ball for an out.

However, Cuthbert wasn’t able to stop his momentum and had to jump into the A’s dugout. That would prove to be costly.

The umpire immediately called Joseph out, then signaled that play was dead and for both baserunners to advance. The Athletics went up 9-7, then held on in the bottom of the ninth to win 9-8.

So, any thoughts on the merits of this rule?

 

QLE Posted: August 30, 2019 at 04:47 AM | 16 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: athletics, dugout, rules of the game

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   1. JoeC Posted: August 30, 2019 at 05:25 PM (#5875754)
No serious quibbles with the rule (I see the point, though it may be unnecessary), but I have thoughts on the merits of the headline.

1) It was the winning run in retrospect, but when you hit a third-inning solo homer to go up 3-0 and end up winning 3-2, you don't generally call it the "winning run."

2) The fielder didn't accidentally jump into the dugout; he intentionally caught the ball, and ended up jumping into the dugout as an unintentional but predictable consequence. You might say that he "accidentally" caught the ball instead of letting it drop, since he admitted that he didn't know the rule, but it's not a 100% thing that it's a wrong decision to trade the out for the run there. RE24 has it close (1.37 vs 1.39 year to date, though a bigger gap in previous years, and of course expected win percentage is more important than expected runs here), and then you'd want to adjust for the count, the quality of the batter and pitcher, who's on deck, how many wild pitches the pitcher throws & catcher allows, how many sac flies the batter hits, who you have coming up next inning, how good their closer is, and other things that you're not calculating in your head between pitches.
   2. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: August 30, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5875800)
What’s interesting about that is how hard it is to go into a dugout now. This isn’t the old days (like 15 years ago) where teams didn’t have all manner of netting blocking the dugout and you’d get Mo Vaughn situations.

For me (and Red Sox fans of a certain age) that’s a Butch Hobson situation. I remember Butch doing it fairly theatrically a couple of times.
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: August 31, 2019 at 12:40 AM (#5875846)
You might say that he "accidentally" caught the ball instead of letting it drop, since he admitted that he didn't know the rule, but it's not a 100% thing that it's a wrong decision to trade the out for the run there.


Could he have caught the ball and threw it to the catcher or pitcher before he left the playing field? If so, that's the best play.

   4. DFA Posted: August 31, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5875957)
It's impressive to me that the umpire knew the rule in the moment.
   5. Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: August 31, 2019 at 09:04 PM (#5876028)
It's a pretty basic ground rule.
   6. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: August 31, 2019 at 11:10 PM (#5876045)
It's a pretty basic ground rule.


It's a rule book rule. But yeah, pretty basic. You carry a live ball out of the playing area and everybody moves up a base.
   7. fret Posted: September 01, 2019 at 03:56 AM (#5876070)
According to Fangraphs the Royals' win probability was 10.4% at the start of the at-bat and dropped to 8.1% after the play. It was the first pitch of the at-bat so the comparison is between 8.1% and the win probability with an 0-1 count (presumably higher than 10.4%). But like JoeC says, those numbers would need to be adjusted for the batter-pitcher matchup etc.
   8. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 01, 2019 at 03:27 PM (#5876133)
Wait, I have seen players going after foul balls tumble into the stands any number of times, but have never seen this rule referred to. Do they always make sure to do it with two outs or nobody on base?
   9. Greg Pope Posted: September 02, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5876259)
Wait, I have seen players going after foul balls tumble into the stands any number of times, but have never seen this rule referred to.

I was going to say this too. Players might tag up when a fielder dives into the stands, but I don’t recall seeing an automatic base.
   10. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: September 02, 2019 at 10:07 AM (#5876261)
It happened in game three of the World Series last year. Nunez fell into the stands catching a foul ball allowing Muncy to move into scoring position from where he scored the tying run.

I won’t say it’s common but it does happen. You’ve probably not noticed because the vast majority of the time it’s not an important play. It’s like Buckner’s error, guys make errors but that one is remembered because of the impact.
   11. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 02, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5876271)
Wait, I have seen players going after foul balls tumble into the stands any number of times, but have never seen this rule referred to. Do they always make sure to do it with two outs or nobody on base?


That's because a large portion of the famous ones are when there are either two outs or no one on base.

Derek Jeter run and fall into the stands was with two outs.
(You can see the Red Sox runners on the move without looking at Jeter.)

Josh Donaldson's leap into the stands was with no one on base.

David Wright's play was with two outs (if you can see through the pixels).

Javier Baez had no one on base.

Alex Gordon had no one on base.
   12. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: September 02, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5876273)
Larry Walker play

Not the same thing, as he was ruled to have thrown the ball into the sands, which results in 2 free bases.
   13. Sweatpants Posted: September 02, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5876275)
Lo Duca's was with the bases empty, too.
   14. vortex of dissipation Posted: September 02, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5876290)
There's also Jay Buhner's catch in 1997 when he caught Scott Hatteberg's fly ball at Fenway Park and tumbled over the bullpen wall, but Hatteberg was the lead-off batter of the inning, so no-one was on base.
   15. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 02, 2019 at 03:08 PM (#5876291)
Austin Jackson's absurd catch at Fenway where he flipped into the bullpen was also with no one on.
   16. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: September 03, 2019 at 04:25 AM (#5876375)
1) It was the winning run in retrospect, but when you hit a third-inning solo homer to go up 3-0 and end up winning 3-2, you don't generally call it the "winning run."
You don't? Since when?

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