Why not use signs?

I am mildly fascinated by low-level cheating. I understand the motivation to cheat at MLB or the motivation of, say, Bernie Madoff. The psychology behind the folks who cheat at, say, amateur master (i.e. "old folks") cycling or, say, to win an extra community college baseball game is what intrigues me. Is "Random State aged 40-49 road cycling 2nd place 2023" going on your gravestone? No? Then don't cheat for it.

#2, its not like money becomes useless at the thousands of dollars level instead of the millions. It's still the guy's job, and he gets a raise for doing well, or fired for doing poorly. In fact, being able to pay the mortgage or not is probably a bigger motivation to cheat than being able to buy the second yacht.

We have guys pretending to be girls so they can win sporting events they could never win if they competed as men - and getting away with it - nothing in the cheating world surprises me.

#4, have you ever met a transgender person in your life?

whY dO lIbs maKe evEryTHinG p0lITicaL?

Wow, #4, I've been here 14 years without feeling the need to figure out how to put someone on ignore... until now.

We have guys pretending to be girls so they can win sporting events they could never win if they competed as men - and getting away with it - nothing in the cheating world surprises me.

Remember, this same guy thinks the name of the Negro League Museum is a "trap."

Honestly, its pretty clear at this point that The Duke is one heck of a troll job. Sure, spewing such nonsense and hatred is still unequivocally bad, but that he fires off this crap then won't acknowledge the responses shows that he knows its crap and doesn't even believe it himself.

I hope it's not a faux pas to post on topic here...

I am mildly fascinated by low-level cheating. I understand the motivation to cheat at MLB or the motivation of, say, Bernie Madoff. The psychology behind the folks who cheat at, say, amateur master (i.e. "old folks") cycling or, say, to win an extra community college baseball game is what intrigues me. Is "Random State aged 40-49 road cycling 2nd place 2023" going on your gravestone? No? Then don't cheat for it.

There are a certain number of people in the world, a certain small percentage, that are just going to cheat at everything they can. It's who they are, on a fundamental level. Many of those who are also extroverted end up as salespeople, always, always looking for an angle, not feeling like they're living unless they're running hustles. And I think this personality type (defect?) is more common in athletics, at all levels, than in other areas of life, because it can be a blurry line between it and competitiveness. Winning Is Everything.

We're probably going to see even more of that personality type, in places and in ways we won't much enjoy, now that professional sports is welcoming gambling with open arms.

#3 .... maybe, you never know, and I'm hardly an expert on NJ community college baseball. But as the intro mentions, he's been there for 13 years, doesn't sound like a situation where he's on the hot seat. I don't imagine it's a year-round full-time gig either. And of course, if the job was vital to his personal well-being (financially or otherwise) then he's just lost it because he cheated and that's gonna make it really hard for him to get a similar job. So why risk losing the job in hopes of a $1,000 raise? But sure, for all I know he was told win the conference or you're fired.

So men competing in women's sports is perfectly fine with you all? I think there's a lot of women who think otherwise. I find it funny that men don't think twice when women are getting screwed over. If a similar thing were happening in a male sport, there would be hell to pay. It's like who cares - no one watches women's sports anyhow. Even the Olympics put a stop to this.

It's cheating. Isn't that what the article is about. Cheating.

It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: May 12, 2023 at 09:21 PM (#6128075)


There are a certain number of people in the world, a certain small percentage, that are just going to cheat at everything they can. It's who they are, on a fundamental level.

- truth

who was the ballplayer who said something like "i jut HAVE to win" about not even letting his small daughter win at anything. not saying he cheated but i know one parent who does

The Duke Posted: May 13, 2023 at 07:40 AM (#6128118)
So men competing in women's sports is perfectly fine with you all? I think there's a lot of women who think otherwise. I find it funny that men don't think twice when women are getting screwed over. If a similar thing were happening in a male sport, there would be hell to pay. It's like who cares - no one watches women's sports anyhow. Even the Olympics put a stop to this.

It's cheating. Isn't that what the article is about. Cheating.

- sigh

if it was actual "men" they would beat females by gigantic amounts and they don't. i disbelieve your average male athlete would agree to chemical or physical castration just to beat a bunch of females in a swim meet. i think you have a problem with trans females and this is a convenient excuse. interesting i dont hear all the screeching and hysteria about transMALES, in the mens rooms (eying all the dangling danglers or whatevs), on the math club (well, THAT might could be a problem), on any other group anything

and if you had a transman who was the size of, say, yordan alvarez (or even alex bregman - 6' - giggle, pls) there would only be objections from so called "christians" who are firm believers in hating anyone not exactly like them. i have asked a bunch of guys about transmen competing in a sport with them and they have ALL said - well, are they gonna help us win? if yes, hey, no problem

there would also be problems from the kind of guy who thinks - hey i can always beat a (so called) grrrrl, i am better than THEMMMMMMMMMMM

i disbelieve your average male athlete would agree to chemical or physical castration just to beat a bunch of females in a swim meet.

That’s true, IMHO, but chemical or physical castration isn’t required. One of the objections to that Penn trans swimmer was an alleged tendency to show off the original equipment in the locker room.

There’s a big gulf between this:

. We have guys pretending to be girls so they can win sporting events they could never win if they competed as men

And this:

So men competing in women's sports is perfectly fine with you all?

***

It’s perfectly reasonable to be conflicted or unsure about what’s right in terms of transgender women competing in sports, but not supporting the nonexistent problem you claimed, that cisgender men are putting on tennis skirts to win women’s tournaments or whatever.

There's obviously some legitimate concern over athletes such as Lia Thomas having a physical edge at the NCAA level. As I see it, the problem about making policy decisions based on that very small number of athletes at the highest levels is the profoundly negative effect on the many more kids/teens who aren't that good and aren't a threat to winning medals but just want to live (and play) the way that gives them comfort. I'm decidedly more worried about their well being than whether some woman from Kentucky finishes fifth instead of tied for fifth.

You guys are so stupid, letting two idiots hijack an otherwise benign topic.

Just because... see post 17.

I think the most important point from the article, and I can't believe I'm the first to bring it up: is "Rodney Velardi" the half-assed, made-up name Randy Velarde gives when he checks into hotels? Is this his alter-ego? Or is there somehow a high-ish level baseball personality also named Rodney Velardi?

Fun fact: RMc's nephew graduated from Rowan University just a few days ago. Nice kid.

So men competing in women's sports is perfectly fine with you all?

I don't have a huge problem with someone being born biologically male, transitioning to female, and then competing as a woman. (Another fun fact: my buddy's eye doctor was Dr Renee Richards.) But competing as a man, as Lia Thomas did, and then saying, "Hey, girl now!" and then competing as a woman? Naah. That ain't right, and if I were one of Thomas' competitors, I'd be furious. I don't even blame Thomas, who's just playing by the rules that were laid down, but the NCAA for allowing it to happen. They're so scared of being called "not one of the cool kids" (or "bigots!") that they let stuff like this happen. Sheesh.

is "Rodney Velardi" the half-assed, made-up name Randy Velarde gives when he checks into hotels?

Asking the real questions.

Back on the topic, I'm fascinated and pleased that we got through 20 posts on cheating in baseball without the Astros being mentioned! Oh hell, I just mentioned them, didn't I?

The psychology behind the folks who cheat at, say, amateur master (i.e. "old folks") cycling or, say, to win an extra community college baseball game is what intrigues me.

There is a lot about the psychology of MAMILs* that is intriguing -- but if you're already willing to drop $$$ to engage in Lance Armstrong cosplay, some light cheating doesn't seem all that out there.


*middle-aged men in lycra

There is an old rule that the smaller the stakes the more willing people are to fight to the death to win (including cheating). It lands under the 'if I can't win this then what can I win?'. Best example I saw personally was in a local competition for figure skating that my teen daughter was in. She was good, not the best but competitive. There was another girl who was, not horrible, but easily the weakest of the group. Before the competition started her dad, who was on the board as was I, went up to the judges and I could see a hundred dollar bill being passed (Canada so each bill is a different color thus easy to tell). Then his daughter started winning golds like mad. This girl never won golds despite her parents making her do extra practices. I was told she hated figure skating by that stage but would do it because her parents insisted. A few of us were talking about how it made no sense, she was skating as always, as were the other girls - no one doing stuff outside their usual range. I talked with the president of the club away from everyone and told him what I saw and how the results were very fishy but he insisted that I should just ignore it. Seems that guy had been giving extra cash/time/etc. to the club all in an effort to live out a sports dream through his daughter. Lord knows how much he blew on it.

Meanwhile my daughter got her medals that day honestly, and her and her friends were laughing at that poor girl who was bitter and mad that no one respected her medal haul.

This coach is like that girls dad. So determined to win something minor that he'll ignore all rules and try anything just to have that moment of unearned glory. It is very sad when you think about it. The kids on his team lose out as now they'll be listed as cheaters by everyone. No win, no individual achievement will be seen as legit by others due to this act of cheating.

As to the transgender issue - my daughter plays with a transgender boy - her league allows people transitioning from female to male to play in the girls league if they were in it before. He is bigger than most, thanks in part to the drugs taken to transition. He had a total of 1 assist all year and no goals. My daughter, all 5'2" of her, had 11 goals and 3 assists (and 1 fight - defending an even shorter girl who was smashed down by a girl who was around 5'10"). She has played in mixed leagues in the past and dominated (the last year in one she had at least 22 goals, I missed quite a few as being a single parent I had to take care of my youngest while she played quite often). Girls under 20 often can compete with boys even in physical sports like hockey. No transgender women have been playing against her as far as I know, but I know she wouldn't care nor would I. I've seen girls who are around 6' tall in the league who get lots of goals just due to their size, others like my daughter who are short who skate between the giants and score anyways.

The Lia Thomas controversy is nutty imo. She won ONE title. 1. Big deal. Her best times have since all been surpassed by CIS women multiple times. You can look it up. Once someone AMAB gets onto the drugs needed for transition their physical advantages are dropped drastically. Lia Thomas is actually a great example, was a contender as a male, went onto the drugs, the next year competed as a male but lost badly, the next competed as a female and was back into contention with a single major win. So far despite very loose rules on it, transgender women have 0 Olympic medals, no sign of wins in pro-women sports (where potentially millions could be made in golf or tennis).

Most famous pro is Renee Richards who made the 2nd round of the US Open Tennis as a male, did a court case to be allowed to compete as a woman and lost in the first round. Her one win was in 35-and-over singles. Her best result in the regular was making it to the 3rd round. There are no transgender women playing pro tennis right now. If the advantage was so massive don't you think someone would've won by now or at least done more than Renee Richards?

So why risk losing the job in hopes of a $1,000 raise?

Probably because hes gotten away with it for 13 years. In a past life, I worked in a field that would allow run ins with business cheats of all kinds, and, anecdotally, the lower stakes meant less eyeballs looking at you, and more opportunity to cheat. Sure, the small businessman taking a few illegitimate tax deductions or putting personal expenses on the company card pales in comparison to Nestle trafficking slaves, but the chances of getting caught for the former are low, and buying a Supreme Court Justice costs a decent chunk of money to get out of the latter.

Fun fact: RMc's nephew graduated from Rowan University just a few days ago. Nice kid

Very cool! Congratulations. My father taught there for many years and I took a couple of classes there myself, nearly 50 years ago.

That was when it was Glassboro State, and also when the college that was the opponent in the cheating game was Gloucester County College. They have kind of merged since into a rebranded 2/4-year college system in that part of South Jersey.

#2 Happens everywhere. You'll see no hit run gamers who actually use cheat engine to make themselves invulnerable. Or guys who try to make a leaderboard by splicing segments together or ...

And they're gaining nothing beyond a listing on some internet leaderboard.

I mean I can understand the Billy Mitchell cheating (sort of). He made real money. Other gaming cheaters, not so much.

And they're gaining nothing beyond a listing on some internet leaderboard.

Neither are the players who do it without cheating. Sometimes being on the internet leaderboard is enough.

The Lia Thomas controversy is nutty imo. She won ONE title. 1. Big deal.

I'm guessing it was a big deal to Emma Weyant, Erica Sullivan, Brooke Forde, et. al.

Her best times have since all been surpassed by CIS women multiple times.

[citation needed]

Look, how successful Lia Thomas was as a woman's swimmer really isn't the issue here. It's opening the door to allowing people who were not only biological males but actually competed as men previously to now compete with women. And that's nutty. (The people in charge know that, but they want so desperately to appear "evolved" and one of the cool kids that they refuse to see what's right in front of them. Geez.)

but they want so desperately to appear "evolved" and one of the cool kids that they refuse to see what's right in front of them

This is where [citation needed] should have been typed.

“I have great respect for Lia,” Forde said in her prepared statement. “Social change is always a slow and difficult process and we rarely get it correct right away. Being among the first to lead such a social change requires an enormous amount of courage, and I admire Lia for her leadership that will undoubtedly benefit many trans athletes in the future. In 2020, I along with most swimmers, experienced what it was like to have my chance to achieve my swimming goals taken away after years of hard work. I would not wish this experience on anyone, especially Lia, who has followed the rules required of her. I believe that treating people with respect and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be, which is why I will not have a problem racing against Lia at NCAAs this year.”

Link

She doesn’t speak for all swimmers, obviously, but it would be great if those who profess to care so much about women’s sports actually cared what the competitors had to say.

She doesn’t speak for all swimmers, obviously, but it would be great if those who profess to care so much about women’s sports actually cared what the competitors had to say.

She wants to desperately appear as evolved and one of the cool kids, obviously.

She wants to desperately appear as evolved and one of the cool kids, obviously.

Yeah, kinda. I mean, what's she going to say? "I'm p*ssed off that this person, who competed as a man just a few years ago and thus has the advantages of a man's body, gets to compete against me as a woman. T'aint right, McGee." That's a good way to get #cancelled, or worse. (And if Forde actually wrote one word of that PR twaddle, then I'm a lugnut.)

Yeah, kinda. I mean, what's she going to say? "I'm p*ssed off that this person, who competed as a man just a few years ago and thus has the advantages of a man's body, gets to compete against me as a woman. T'aint right, McGee."

Such an approach has worked out swimmingly for Riley Gaines, who has parlayed her fifth-place tie with Thomas into a lucrative place on the perpetually aggrieved tour. You probably caught her at one of her stops.

Maybe Forde doesn't want a "place on the perpetually aggrieved tour" (which consists almost entirely of people on the left, but never mind). Maybe she just wants this to be over with, after having to deal with an outsized piece of media attention that literally never attaches itself to womens' collegiate swimming. "Look, honey, we're preparing this PR statement with all the right words in it. Just sign it, and you can go back to your life, without having to deal with those nasty protestors anymore. Savvy?"

And as far as Riley Gaines goes, yikes. (Not sure I believe her, but, still, yikes.)

(And if Forde actually wrote one word of that PR twaddle, then I'm a lugnut.)

I'm not sure what's worse, your assumption that she didn't write it or your assertion that it's "twaddle." It's an incredibly graceful and compassionate statement. If we're going to decide as a society that empathy should be condemned as twaddle, then I'll join you as a lugnut, because I'd rather not be human.

Maybe Forde doesn't want a "place on the perpetually aggrieved tour" (which consists almost entirely of people on the left, but never mind).

Sure it does.

Maybe she just wants this to be over with, after having to deal with an outsized piece of media attention that literally never attaches itself to womens' collegiate swimming.

Or maybe she said what she said, and you don't like it so you're dismissing it out of hand.

And if Forde actually wrote one word of that PR twaddle, then I'm a lugnut.

She's at Stanford, and her father is a professional writer. I'm sure that she can write.

and her father is a professional writer.

Wow, I didn't realize Pat was her dad. He was a super nice guy when we used to run into each other on the Midwest sportswriting circuit.

I'm not sure what's worse, your assumption that she didn't write it or your assertion that it's "twaddle."

She's, what, 22? There's not a 22-year-old on the planet that writes or talks that way, period. It could not be more obvious this was written by the People's Committee to Promote Goodthink, or maybe an AI set up for that purpose. Twaddle, I say.

Maybe Forde doesn't want a "place on the perpetually aggrieved tour" (which consists almost entirely of people on the left, but never mind).

Sure it does.

Oh, the people that are rioting and burning down cities every night are on the right? Good to know.

And I noticed that you all ignored the Riley Gaines article I quoted, because bad people with the wrong politics deserve to be kidnapped...!

Oh, the people that are rioting and burning down cities every night are on the right? Good to know.

Jeez, they really ought to stop that.

They should instead do real manly things like shooting beer cases or bemoaning the desexualization of shelled candies.

There is no shortage of aggrieved on your side, you dumb ####.

And I noticed that you all ignored the Riley Gaines article I quoted, because bad people with the wrong politics deserve to be kidnapped...!

Whether it happened exactly as she describes it or, in all likelihood, it's some lesser version, it was still disgraceful. It doesn't change the fact she's cashing in on all of this the way none of the cool kids are.