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Monday, June 29, 2020

Aubrey Huff Says He Would Rather Die From Coronavirus Than Wear a Mask

“It’s not healthy to breathe in your own CO2 all the time and it seems like everyone is a coronavirus expert. If I God forbid get the coronavirus, here’s what I do: I go home, I get well and I get back and live my life. I would rather die from coronavirus than live the rest of my life in fear and wear a mask.”

Huff is not new to controversial comments.

NattyBoh Posted: June 29, 2020 at 09:34 AM | 155 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: aubrey huff, covid-19, masks

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   1. JRVJ Posted: June 29, 2020 at 09:51 AM (#5960107)
As someone who has COVID-19 right now, scr*w Aubrey Huff.

(Still no symptoms)
   2. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 09:52 AM (#5960108)
“It’s not healthy to breathe in your own CO2 all the time and it seems like everyone is a coronavirus expert."


Irony is dead.
   3. Tony S Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:01 AM (#5960109)
I go home, I get well and I get back and live my life.


Or you go home, then go to the ICU (if there are any beds available), and wind up not having a life to live.

But I'm sure that's better than wearing a mask once in awhile -- after all, that might mean occasionally subsuming your all-important rugged individualism. Priorities.

Get well soon, JRVJ.
   4. Zonk WARRIORS ALONE! Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:08 AM (#5960111)
And deprive the world of such an important thinker?

I pray Huff reconsiders before so callously risking the vital wit and wisdom he provides humanity... Even a slight chance of society no longer benefiting from the keen insights he provides the world seems like a bad idea.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:15 AM (#5960112)
Is this remotely surprising?
   6. Rough Carrigan Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:45 AM (#5960122)
Well, the New England Journal of Medicine said that masks are mostly a waste of time outside of a healthcare setting:

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.


So maybe everyone rushing to condescend to Huff should think again.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372
   7. Zonk WARRIORS ALONE! Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:57 AM (#5960124)
I would never rush to condescend to a genius like Aubrey Huff... I find a leisurely pace works just fine.
   8. BrianBrianson Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:57 AM (#5960125)
If you'd read the whole article, you might be shocked to discover the context it's referring to. Yes, wearing masks doesn't that significantly reduce your risk of contracting COVID, especially when you're the hypothetical medical professional treating someone infected with it in close quarters without using gloves, soap, or the like. People wear them because it significantly reduces your ability to spread it to other people.

So, yeah, the headline is wrong; it should read "Aubrey Huff says he would rather you die from COVID than wear a mask".
   9. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:58 AM (#5960126)
EDIT: Nevermind
   10. JL72 Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:59 AM (#5960127)
We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.


My understanding is that wearing masks protects others from the wearer. Sure, it may not help me, but it reduces my ability to infect others.

Edit - beverage of choice to Brian.
   11. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:03 AM (#5960128)
My understanding is that wearing masks protects others from the wearer. Sure, it may not help me, but it reduces my ability to infect others.
...which is supported by the linked article.

Also, the article notes that “the potential benefits of universal masking need to be balanced against the future risk of running out of masks and thereby exposing clinicians to the much greater risk of caring for symptomatic patients without a mask,” but does not mention any need to balance the benefits of mask wearing against Aubrey Huff’s desire to be as much of an ####### as possible at all times.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:04 AM (#5960131)
If Huff were such a fervent reader of the New England Journal of Medicine, he likely would have also seen this follow-up, in which the following was written:

We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org)1 as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less. It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions. Universal masking helps to prevent such people from spreading virus-laden secretions, whether they recognize that they are infected or not.

We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments... We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.
   13. Lassus Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:19 AM (#5960135)
We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments... We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.

I am too stupid to understand why a mask helps protect you if you're passing by sick people all day, but will not help protect you if you pass by a sick person once in the grocery store.

EDIT: Also, April 1 seems like an awful long time ago.
   14. bachslunch Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:29 AM (#5960139)
What knuckle-dragging butt-wipes like Huff likely don't realize is that we don't just exhale carbon dioxide, and furthermore the amount is small. Furthermore, the amount of oxygen exhaled only decreases by ca. 5-8%. There's a reason why mouth-to-mouth resuscitation works instead of killing people. Per Wikipedia (always a potentially dubious place to cite from, but the percentages seem right):

Inhaled air contains: 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, and small amounts of other gases including argon, carbon dioxide, neon, helium, and hydrogen.

Exhaled air contains: 74.4% nitrogen, 13.6–16.0% oxygen, 5.0–6.3% water vapor, 4.0–5.3% carbon dioxide, 1% argon, and minute traces of hydrogen, ammonia, carbon monoxide, and a few volatile organic compounds.

You'd have to wear a mask for an inordinately long period of time to have any adverse effects, if indeed you had any (which I seriously doubt). Wearing it while you're outside your home for a couple hours won't be an issue at all, and can make a definite difference to those around you.


   15. Jim P Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:32 AM (#5960140)
I am too stupid to understand why a mask helps protect you if you're passing by sick people all day, but will not help protect you if you pass by a sick person once in the grocery store.


It's "dose over time". Other than being sneezed on by an infected person, you won't get an infectious dose of the virus all at once. A single virus particle won't give you the disease, you need a large number of them (1000? 10000? I think it's in this range). A single pass-by in the grocery store might give you 10 (say). So it's not the mask won't protect you from a single pass-by, but rather than you won't get sick from that regardless of whether you are wearing a mask.
   16. Lassus Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:34 AM (#5960142)
Interesting. Thank you very much for that super-brief and very clear explanation.
   17. The Mighty Quintana Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:45 AM (#5960146)
I eagerly await Trevor Bauer's response.
   18. Zonk WARRIORS ALONE! Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:47 AM (#5960147)
I eagerly await Trevor Bauer's response.


He should social media distance... but then, Bauer isn't always the wisest of actors either.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:58 AM (#5960151)
What knuckle-dragging butt-wipes like Huff likely don't realize is that we don't just exhale carbon dioxide, and furthermore the amount is small.


I didn't click the article to see if Huff offered any specious scientific reasoning for his stance - but it sounds like it's just a "freedom!!!" thing to me.
   20. Rough Carrigan Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:07 PM (#5960152)
We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.


Why try to make it into something it isn't?
   21. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:12 PM (#5960153)
The tragedy is that a lot of anti-mask people really truly don't understand that the main purpose of mask wearing is to protect other people. Wearing a mask is not about fear, it's about selflessness, which is supposed to be a patriotic virtue. The fact that a lot of people either haven't gotten this message or are too obtuse to understand it makes one despair.

(I am not talking about Huff specifically; I have religiously avoided the circus around him and have no idea what his deal is.)
   22. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:14 PM (#5960154)
Why try to make it into something it isn't?
Yes, because Huff is clearly parsing this nuance, and would be fine with wearing a mask when compelled to be within six feet of others for a sustained period. It's just the unsustained periods he's objecting to. That's what he meant by "Take your #coronavirus mask & stick it where the sun don’t shine."

Why try to make it into something it isn't?
   23. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:16 PM (#5960156)
selflessness, which is supposed to be a patriotic virtue
Only when it doesn't come from the "liberal left," as Huff puts it.
   24. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:26 PM (#5960158)

EDIT: Also, April 1 seems like an awful long time ago.


QFT for truth. Anyone restricting knowledge to that point, especially given the zero references to studies, is not someone to take seriously.
   25. depletion Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:31 PM (#5960161)
Anyone can quit smoking. It takes a real man to fight cancer.
   26. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 29, 2020 at 12:37 PM (#5960164)
Only when it doesn't come from the "liberal left," as Huff puts it.
But that's just it, I think that because it comes from the "liberal left" Huff isn't willing to believe that mask wearing is selfless and not about government control or being unmanly or whatever it is that he's worried about. Maybe Huff himself is willfully around the bend, but other people in the anti-mask boat aren't necessarily. A lot of anti-mask people want to be selfless, they just can't believe the truth in this situation.
   27. RJ in TO Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:11 PM (#5960170)
Huff has demonstrated himself to be a tremendous ####### on a wide variety of topics, and to not give a flying #### about anyone who isn't him. I see no reason why we should continue to link to articles about this jackass, or continue to give him the attention he so desperately craves.
   28. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:15 PM (#5960171)
It does seem likely that many well-intentioned mask wearers are doing it wrong. Eg, wearing the mask at the grocery store or home depot, but not wearing a mask for one's 8 hours in the office. After all, it's only Chuck and Patty in this room, and we're together all the time!
   29. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:34 PM (#5960179)
Per Wikipedia (always a potentially dubious place to cite from,

I haven't seen stats recently, but when I did some years back, Wikipedia was in the same ballpark for accuracy as the Britannica, which is more or less the gold standard for an encyclopedia.

And if you see something wrong in Wikipedia, you can in fact correct it. Better be prepared to defend your corrections, though.

I suppose you can write to the Britannica editors and ask them to make changes, too, but not sure how nimble that process might be.
   30. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:34 PM (#5960180)
Tigers went to game 163 in Huff's only season in Detroit, 2009. Huff managed to put up a -0.9 fWAR in only 40 games! Glad I have even more reason to dislike this person.
   31. Rough Carrigan Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:45 PM (#5960181)
Yes, because Huff is clearly parsing this nuance, and would be fine with wearing a mask when compelled to be within six feet of others for a sustained period. It's just the unsustained periods he's objecting to. That's what he meant by "Take your #coronavirus mask & stick it where the sun don’t shine."

Why try to make it into something it isn't?

When the discussion goes to the general situation, why reference Aubrey Huff's thoughts or lack of same?
   32. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:50 PM (#5960182)
When the discussion goes to the general situation, why reference Aubrey Huff's thoughts or lack of same?


Because you haven't advanced an opinion of your own, but you did explicitly defend Huff. Perhaps you would tell us what your stance on mask wearing is? Then we'll be able to ridicule it more accurately.
   33. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 29, 2020 at 01:50 PM (#5960183)
I haven't seen stats recently, but when I did some years back, Wikipedia was in the same ballpark for accuracy as the Britannica, which is more or less the gold standard for an encyclopedia.


It depends on the type of entry. Anything controversial or personal are riskier. When to use/avoid Wiki is part of my research speil for students.
   34. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:13 PM (#5960190)
I don't see how the statement is wrong in any way. Wouldn't everybody rather have Aubrey Huff die than wear a mask?
   35. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:20 PM (#5960192)
Here's a cause for Huff to believe in:

"After bars were shut down a second time during the pandemic, the Texas Bar and Nightclub Alliance announced on Sunday plans to sue the state over what they call discrimination."

Complete with video of one that reopened as a restaurant to better spread.
   36. BrianBrianson Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5960194)
Wikipedia is more like a major newspaper than Britannica for reliability, as least historically. Like, if you compare it to the New York Times, the Globe and Mail, or the like for how much you should trust it, that's about right.

I think 15 undersells some points. A lot of why masks help prevent spread but not contraction is that you pick up a lot of virii of surfaces by touching them, then touching your mouth/nose/eyes. Viruses only come out of you by breathing, pretty much. Breathe into a mask and they mostly don't get beyond your face. But getting in by skin contact to eyes, ears, mouth, and nose gives a lot more opportunities - and the virus can persist on door handles, whatever, for hours, rather than in the air for minutes. So, hand washing with soap helps here a lot - the virus is actually pretty fragile to soap - but masks don't do much. But masks keep surfaces clean in the first place.
   37. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5960195)
I suppose you can write to the Britannica editors and ask them to make changes, too, but not sure how nimble that process might be.

Does Encyclopedia Britannica still exist?
   38. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:44 PM (#5960196)
What on earth does wearing a mask have to do with being liberal? It doesn't have to do with allowing everyone to pursue the good life as they see fit, it doesn't have anything to do with redistributing power and wealth. It's just got nothing to do with politics. Is it just that Trump won't do it? Of all the things that could have somehow become politicized, did we really manage to politicize public health measures during the worst public health crisis of the past century?

(The answer to that last question, is, apparently 'yes'. So take it to be an expression of frustration rather than an actual question.)
   39. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: June 29, 2020 at 02:48 PM (#5960197)
FWIW, in my field Wikipedia seems not to be wrong, so much as incomplete and misleading. A number of the articles read like they were written by smart and enthusiastic undergraduates. Who, while smart and enthusiastic, are still undergraduates.
   40. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 03:00 PM (#5960206)
It doesn't have to do with allowing everyone to pursue the good life as they see fit


The Huffists absolutely see it as a violation of their autonomy. Or something.
   41. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 29, 2020 at 03:17 PM (#5960211)
Trump isn't helping, but I think it's that if you admit there may be a need to wear a mask, it's an admission that the virus is dangerous and we should alter our behavior for it, which is then just a stone's throw from lockdowns and 2 stone's throws from death panels. Maybe we're not exactly sure why we object, but we aren't fools--we know we can't give an inch to the deep state libtards or they'll take our guns.
   42. baxter Posted: June 29, 2020 at 03:51 PM (#5960224)
37 Don't know but to quote Lucille Ball: I fell in love with a micropedia. Sound crazy? Well maybe it is.
   43. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 29, 2020 at 04:01 PM (#5960227)
“It’s not healthy to breathe in your own CO2 all the time and it seems like everyone is a coronavirus expert.”

Nobody advocates wearing a mask "all the time". If you're not working around other people, how much time do you really need to be wearing a mask? An hour a day, tops? Essential workers seem to be doing it for much longer with no issues, although I see them taking breaks and removing the mask outside.
   44. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 29, 2020 at 04:39 PM (#5960238)
Tigers went to game 163 in Huff's only season in Detroit, 2009. Huff managed to put up a -0.9 fWAR in only 40 games! Glad I have even more reason to dislike this person.

Preach it. This Tigers fan has hated him ever since. (And Fernando Rodney, who blew the lead in the 10th inning of the playoff against the Twins.)
   45. Zonk WARRIORS ALONE! Posted: June 29, 2020 at 04:56 PM (#5960241)
Trump isn't helping, but I think it's that if you admit there may be a need to wear a mask, it's an admission that the virus is dangerous and we should alter our behavior for it, which is then just a stone's throw from lockdowns and 2 stone's throws from death panels. Maybe we're not exactly sure why we object, but we aren't fools--we know we can't give an inch to the deep state libtards or they'll take our guns.


The fortunate thing, I think, is that there's only one person - you named him - making this case... I'm heartened to see Abbott, Cheney, and McConnell among others making pretty unqualified pro-mask statements.

There's a very fine parsing to be had about "required" or not, I suppose... but in the drive to get back to sanity, I'd prefer we start to acknowledge some things that actually *ARE* bipartisan and just damn the one person who insists on making *everything* a matter of fealty vs nefarious plots out to get him.
   46. Walt Davis Posted: June 29, 2020 at 05:30 PM (#5960250)
The man refuses to live in fear of a virus yet fears breathing too much of his exhaled carbon dioxide if he wears a mask.
   47. Brian C Posted: June 29, 2020 at 05:56 PM (#5960254)
And if you see something wrong in Wikipedia, you can in fact correct it. Better be prepared to defend your corrections, though.

Well, once I edited the article on Lake Michigan to state that it is one of the world's largest shark-free bodies of water. Which I think is unambiguously true, but it was edited out nonetheless shortly afterwards. So you'll pardon me if I'm a tad skeptical of Wikipedia's editing protocols.
   48. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:15 PM (#5960259)
Not to defend wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure "unambiguously true" isn't the only criterium for having something included in an article.
   49. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:22 PM (#5960260)
Its apparently somewhat debateable, Brian, as Bull Sharks can live in freshwater. But Im not a shark expert so maybe you are right.
   50. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:25 PM (#5960261)
The man refuses to live in fear of a virus yet fears breathing too much of his exhaled carbon dioxide if he wears a mask.


People are very, very bad at assessing risk. Back when seat belts were becoming mandatory, you would often hear freedumb people say they wouldn't wear a seat belt because of stories of people being trapped in their car and burning to death when they would have lived had they gotten thrown through the windshield.
   51. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:27 PM (#5960263)
Over a decade ago I edited the Wikipedia article on Indiana Jones to state that a likely inspiration for the character "Short Round" came from Samuel Fuller's film The Steel Helmet, which also has an Asian tyke that acts as a guide and is named Short Round. I think it's been rephrased over the years, but the information still in there. So that's a real feather in my cap.
   52. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:27 PM (#5960264)
Nobody advocates wearing a mask "all the time".


Yeah, another freedumb fallacy in general, and specific to Huff is that "I don't want to wear a mask for the rest of my life", which most people would agree with, and no one is advocating.
   53. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:31 PM (#5960266)
"I don't want to wear a mask all the time for the rest of my life, therefore I will not occasionally wear a mask for the next several months" is about as juvenile as it gets.
   54. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:38 PM (#5960269)
I've bone a fair bit of Wikipedia editing over the years, though none about Lake Michigan, which I'm sure has swallowed a number of Chicago loan sharks over the years.
   55. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 06:39 PM (#5960270)
I wouldn't call these fallacies because they're not actual arguments. Huff isn't scared of carbon dioxide, and he hasn't made a poor risk analysis. He doesn't want to wear a mask because he thinks it desecrates his Sacred American Cowboy Sovereignty. The C02 nonsense is just some stupid #### he's glommed onto and is parroting as a secondary justification.
   56. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: June 29, 2020 at 07:18 PM (#5960278)
Well, call it a straw man then. Arguing against a position no one has taken.
   57. Greg K Posted: June 29, 2020 at 07:44 PM (#5960280)
Over a decade ago I edited the Wikipedia article on Indiana Jones to state that a likely inspiration for the character "Short Round" came from Samuel Fuller's film The Steel Helmet, which also has an Asian tyke that acts as a guide and is named Short Round. I think it's been rephrased over the years, but the information still in there. So that's a real feather in my cap.

Heh. The other day I listened to a podcast review of "The Steel Helmet" and they were surprised to hear the term used. I'm pretty sure they looked it up during the recording (possibly your wikipedia entry) and confirmed it.
   58. SoSH U at work Posted: June 29, 2020 at 08:37 PM (#5960285)
People are very, very bad at assessing risk. Back when seat belts were becoming mandatory, you would often hear freedumb people say they wouldn't wear a seat belt because of stories of people being trapped in their car and burning to death when they would have lived had they gotten thrown through the windshield.


They probably grew up watching a lot of CHiPs.
   59. JJ1986 Posted: June 29, 2020 at 09:12 PM (#5960289)
I think for Huff and other huffies, they decided months ago that the virus wasn't a big deal and the worst thing in their world is admitting that one was wrong.
   60. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 29, 2020 at 09:41 PM (#5960295)
Of all the things that could have somehow become politicized, did we really manage to politicize public health measures during the worst public health crisis of the past century?
Does it surprise you at all? If so, I'm surprised at your surprise. COVID was pretty much guaranteed to generate a backlash from people of...Huffish proclivities, let's say. For your consideration:

1. Successful response to COVID requires believing in and valuing expertise, and following the advice of experts and science - even when the advice changes over time as they learn more.

2. COVID has hit people in urban areas the hardest, and disproportionately minorities and lower-income folks due to the circumstances of transmission. These groups are Other People who Huffers are, in general, less likely to know personally and care about. There's also the "it only kills old people" trope.

3. Successful response to COVID cannot be achieved through aggression, intimidation, bullying, saber-rattling, or bombing anyone. "Getting tough" will not work, and in fact, successful mitigation requires being cautious and "retreating" into our homes.

4. Successful response to COVID requires de-prioritizing economic activity, and many people, particularly small business owners and their employees, will suffer. **Howie - this is an entirely valid concern.** Who knows how many small business owners/employees Huff himself knows, but my guess is that Huffers are much more likely to know and care about these people than those most likely to actually get COVID.

5. Successful response to COVID requires that people think more collectively than individualistically, and to some extent put their own needs and wants behind the needs of their community and the broader society. This loss of freedom to do whatever one wants can range from wearing a mask (tiny, tiny inconvenience) to having to close a business for months (potentially devastating). However, Huffers are not inclined to allow for any nuance, countervailing interests or cost/benefit analysis with regard to most Freedoms (for themselves, anyway), and tend to see any perceived restriction as completely unacceptable. (See also: regulations on firearms).

Put all those together, and it's basically a Greatest Hits of stuff that people with Huffish proclivities hate and refuse to do, combined with no reason that is relevant to them (i.e., people they know and care about are likely to get COVID) to do so.
   61. PreservedFish Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:42 PM (#5960306)
Beyond all that, I think it suffices to say that everything can and will be politicized in today's climate. Everything.

Successful response to COVID cannot be achieved through aggression, intimidation, bullying, saber-rattling, or bombing anyone. "Getting tough" will not work, and in fact, successful mitigation requires being cautious and "retreating" into our homes.


China seems to have got tough with marvelous success - forcing thousands of medical workers to migrate, building new hospitals within days, compelling quarantines, curfews that weren't mere suggestions, and so on. Definitely a brute force response.

In another timeline, Trump zags instead of zigs, and goes full autocrat with his COVID response, attempting to stamp it out with the might of executive and military power, and his base loves it.
   62. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 29, 2020 at 10:57 PM (#5960310)
China seems to have got tough with marvelous success - forcing thousands of medical workers to migrate, building new hospitals within days, compelling quarantines, curfews that weren't mere suggestions, and so on. Definitely a brute force response.

In another timeline, Trump zags instead of zigs, and goes full autocrat with his COVID response, attempting to stamp it out with the might of executive and military power, and his base loves it.
Fair point, and that's an interesting way to think about it. But I'm not sure even Trump would maintain fealty from Huffers if he did that, in light of factors 1-4 above. That said, I'm not at all sure they wouldn't love it, because "whatever Trump says" usually does seem to be their one overriding "principle."
   63. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 29, 2020 at 11:59 PM (#5960317)
de-prioritizing economic activity, and many people, particularly small business owners and their employees, will suffer.


To what extent depending greatly on the country you happen to live in. Or course, doing nothing doesn't necessarily help the economy because people are going to get sick and not show up for work, and people are not going to do out of the house consumery things.

In another thread, Walt said that preliminary data indicated a 4% difference between the downturns of the Danish and Swedish economy. The other part of this question is how many lives you're willing to trade for the 4 percent difference?

Also worth asking what sort of protection those workers get -- much better in Sweden and Denmark. Medical bankruptcy is not so much a thing in those countries or in most of the civilized world. It is here. We choose who we protect and who is on their own, nor that you, ElRoy don't know that.
   64. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:46 AM (#5960327)
In another thread, Walt said that preliminary data indicated a 4% difference between the downturns of the Danish and Swedish economy. The other part of this question is how many lives you're willing to trade for the 4 percent difference?

Well, that’s 4% (difference in growth rate?) over a few months. We’re not out of the woods yet, and it may be that Denmark, by limiting the spread of the virus, may be able to fully reopen more quickly than a place like Sweden or the US, which have allowed a lot of people to get it while still coming nowhere close to herd immunity.
   65. BrianBrianson Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:52 AM (#5960328)
Little edits to fix Wikipedia usually stick, though sources are usually necessary, yeah. Random insertions tend to get nuked because they're producing an incoherent mess, even if they're true. There's a lot of cultural knowledge that helps navigate these things, and those of us who know what we're doing often forget how tough it can be for people who don't know what they're doing.

The featured article I largely wrote remains pretty much the same for the obvious reason: only one person gave any kind of a #### about the quite obscure topic, and he was pretty friendly and not strongly opinionated. So it still reads more or less how I wrote it, more than a decade later.
   66. Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: June 30, 2020 at 07:35 AM (#5960331)
I think we should get this man a good dose of COVID-19, pronto.
   67. Ron J Posted: June 30, 2020 at 08:07 AM (#5960332)
#64. Right. Hell, Denmark might well have gotten that short term hit back (relative to Sweden) already since Sweden has been (mostly) excluded from the Nordic reopening initiatives.

While it was wrong to judge Sweden's higher death toll in the short run, it's also a mistake to look at only the short term economic consequences.
   68. Jay Seaver Posted: June 30, 2020 at 09:15 AM (#5960336)
China seems to have got tough with marvelous success


As far as we know and as far as they're willing to say; based on what I've read on various film sites, theaters were only open briefly before being shut again, and I haven't read anything about local sports starting back up. They may be reporting low numbers, but people aren't acting like it's relatively safe out yet.
   69. PreservedFish Posted: June 30, 2020 at 10:01 AM (#5960342)
As far as we know and as far as they're willing to say; based on what I've read on various film sites, theaters were only open briefly before being shut again, and I haven't read anything about local sports starting back up. They may be reporting low numbers, but people aren't acting like it's relatively safe out yet.


I don't think there's any way to see China's success in combatting the virus as anything less than totally extraordinary. I keep seeing people say "yeah but you can't trust China" but there's no ####### way the virus is rampaging through Beijing or Shanghai or the countryside. This isn't North Korea, it's highly connected to the rest of the world and is full of international residents, journalists, dissidents, UN and WHO reps, etc. We would know.

That China still exerts some measure of caution in large public gatherings shouldn't be seen as undercutting their success - if anything, it's a lesson for us.
   70. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 10:12 AM (#5960343)
Aubrey Huff Says He Would Rather Die From Coronavirus


I mean, I’m OK with that if he is.
   71. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 30, 2020 at 10:28 AM (#5960344)
I think we should get this man a good dose of COVID-19, pronto.
"I'm on it. He's on The List." -- B. Gates
   72. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 30, 2020 at 01:26 PM (#5960378)
The C02 nonsense is just some stupid #### he's glommed onto and is parroting as a secondary justification.


Actually there was a report in Los Angeles of man having a heart attack or something while driving and it was attributed to him wearing his face mask for a long period as he was diagnosed with low oxygen at some pt.I think he had gone to the hospital with some sort of breathing issue continued to wear the mask and had some sort of problem.

That being said only for the sake of completeness. Not supporting Aubrey Huff and obviously one can take the mask off when you need to breath more oxygen.
   73. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 30, 2020 at 02:17 PM (#5960386)
   74. Jay Z Posted: June 30, 2020 at 02:40 PM (#5960390)
Actually there was a report in Los Angeles of man having a heart attack or something while driving and it was attributed to him wearing his face mask for a long period as he was diagnosed with low oxygen at some pt.I think he had gone to the hospital with some sort of breathing issue continued to wear the mask and had some sort of problem.

That being said only for the sake of completeness. Not supporting Aubrey Huff and obviously one can take the mask off when you need to breath more oxygen.


I have seen a surprising number of people who choose to wear masks driving. I don't get it, but it seems to be a thing.
   75. RJ in TO Posted: June 30, 2020 at 02:58 PM (#5960395)
I have seen a surprising number of people who choose to wear masks driving. I don't get it, but it seems to be a thing.
If it's a short drive, or I'm making multiple stops, it's just easier to leave the mask on instead of constantly fiddling with it to take it off/put it on.
   76. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:10 PM (#5960402)
#73

Your link goes kablooey when I try to click on it.
   77. Karl from NY Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5960403)
The driving thing is a combination of lack of critical thinking to understand that "wear the mask!" in reality is only doing anything when you're near another person, and a virtue-signaling desire to be seen wearing a mask. (Besides the legitimate case of being in the car with someone at risk.)
   78. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:22 PM (#5960405)
or it's #75 or an attitude of wtf I'll be home in 5 mins. But ho ahead Dr Freud.
   79. The Duke Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:23 PM (#5960407)
I don’t think we should use the Chinese as an example of how “getting tough” given what they are doing to the Uighers.

The science in mask-wearing is remarkably thin. They won’t do control groups because it’s considered morally wrong so much of it is interpolation. Maybe it helps on the margins: in enclosed spaces, stores etc. to me they kind of seem like anti-lock brakes when they first Came out. Everyone just rode closer to the car in front of them. All the servers where I live wear masks. But I’ve noticed they are coming in closer to my table than when they weren’t wearing them. Part of it is the ABS issue and part is they can’t be heard clearly through their mask.

I see people wearing masks on bike rides, in their cars, in their own backyard. None of that make sense to me
   80. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:24 PM (#5960408)
If it's a short drive, or I'm making multiple stops, it's just easier to leave the mask on instead of constantly fiddling with it to take it off/put it on.


Yep, same here. Particularly since my mask is one of the ones you have to tie in the back. Why un-tie and re-tie it two or three times in the space of ten minutes? That’s dumb.
   81. SoSH U at work Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:29 PM (#5960410)
or it's #75 or an attitude of wtf I'll be home in 5 mins. But ho ahead Dr Freud.


Or, as was the case with my wife the other day, she forgot. We were about 15 minutes into our ride home when she said, "Why am I still wearing this?" I reckon her absentminded wearing of one in the car looked similar to someone doing it for virtue-signaling purposes, though I'm not really the expert on mask reading.

   82. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:43 PM (#5960414)
I reckon her absentminded wearing of one in the car looked similar to someone doing it for virtue-signaling purposes, though I'm not really the expert on mask reading.
Do you think your wife is a virtuous person?
   83. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:44 PM (#5960415)
What kind of contortions does your mind have to go through to imagine someone is wearing a mask in their car to impress the tiny number of strangers who happen to see them?
   84. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:47 PM (#5960416)
In my own case, the sad truth is that I try to put it on before I leave the house simply to have it with me when I leave the house. That's far less an inconvenience than driving to the store, seeing someone in a mask and having to drive home again, which I've managed to do a few times.

Likewise, if I leave it in the car, it never leaves the car.
   85. Karl from NY Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:54 PM (#5960420)
The contortions of seeing people literally post car selfies on Facebook showing off their masks. Yes, my friends do this.
   86. jmurph Posted: June 30, 2020 at 03:57 PM (#5960421)
So I think the picture posting would be the virtue signalling in this argument, then.
   87. frannyzoo Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:02 PM (#5960423)
Elastic ear mask + glasses = wearing mask in the car, as it's unnecessary work to keep putting both on/off. And sure, if there's even a scintilla of chance some mask hater sees and seethes over me, that's gravy. Fortunately, here in my part of New Mexico, the number of seethers is relatively low.
   88. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:04 PM (#5960424)
Karl's friends, I've learned since covid, are an interesting bunch; he doesn't seem to enjoy them.
   89. Tin Angel Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:13 PM (#5960426)
#87 - how on earth doesn't the mask constantly fog up your glasses, especially in the heat of New Mexico?
   90. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:14 PM (#5960427)
Actually, when my wife first made our masks she took a picture of us wearing them, along with our sunglasses, and posted it on Facebook. But she did it because it was funny, we looked like alien space bugs, not because we thought how SJW virtuous we looked.

Fortunately, she provided explanatory text so friends and family wouldn't impute virtue-signalling motivations to us.

RE: 89, it's the humidity that's the fogger.
   91. frannyzoo Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:17 PM (#5960428)
#89: It's a dry heat. The biggest problem with that is early morning on bike rides (yes, I wear one riding ~100 miles a week, with rare exception on steep hills with nobody around). By 10:00 in the morning, the Summer humidity is nearing single digits.
   92. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:21 PM (#5960430)
how on earth doesn't the mask constantly fog up your glasses, especially in the heat of New Mexico?


I wear masks with the metal band on the top. As discussed in another thread a few months ago, if you push it down to make a proper contour, and keep it in front of your glasses, you are ok. As I often wear one with elastic that goes around my head, glasses, and a hat, it's amazing how much time I save by leaving the ensemble in place. Knowing that it pisses off random rednecks wasn't part of the calculus, but I embrace it.
   93. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:30 PM (#5960434)
The driving thing is a combination of lack of critical thinking to understand that "wear the mask!" in reality is only doing anything when you're near another person, and a virtue-signaling desire to be seen wearing a mask. (Besides the legitimate case of being in the car with someone at risk.)


I think some people keep them on in the car when they've been handling things while they're out and about and don't want their hands anywhere near their face (i.e. to remove the mask) until they've washed them thoroughly. I know it's crossed my mind when I've gotten in the car after being in the grocery store.
   94. PreservedFish Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:42 PM (#5960440)
Actually, when my wife first made our masks she took a picture of us wearing them, along with our sunglasses, and posted it on Facebook. But she did it because it was funny, we looked like alien space bugs, not because we thought how SJW virtuous we looked.

Fortunately, she provided explanatory text so friends and family wouldn't impute virtue-signalling motivations to us.


Reminds me of this
   95. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:46 PM (#5960442)
The science in mask-wearing is remarkably thin. They won’t do control groups because it’s considered morally wrong so much of it is interpolation. Maybe it helps on the margins: in enclosed spaces, stores etc. to me they kind of seem like anti-lock brakes when they first Came out. Everyone just rode closer to the car in front of them. All the servers where I live wear masks. But I’ve noticed they are coming in closer to my table than when they weren’t wearing them. Part of it is the ABS issue and part is they can’t be heard clearly through their mask.

I see people wearing masks on bike rides, in their cars, in their own backyard. None of that make sense to me


I admit that I'm not an expert on the science. I also probably don't wear a mask quite as much as I should, although I do whenever I'm indoors in a public space (outside of my office at work, in a store, etc.). I don't wear one in the car or when I'm outside, unless there's a moment where I can't avoid brushing past someone. However, I don't understand the issue with people wearing masks in those scenarios. If it helps at the margins, or even if it MIGHT help at the margins, what's the harm in it? It doesn't hurt me for someone else to wear one, and it doesn't hurt me to wear one, at least not for a short period of time. So why not do it? I don't understand the objection, beyond the people who have a legitimate medical issue that makes wearing a mask physically harmful.

Yes, I understand this has become politicized like everything else, but I hold onto this silly hope that people will put aside politics in favor of reason. And I haven't seen a legitimate reason not to wear masks.
   96. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 30, 2020 at 04:54 PM (#5960445)
I also probably don't wear a mask quite as much as I should, although I do whenever I'm indoors in a public space (outside of my office at work, in a store, etc.). I don't wear one in the car or when I'm outside, unless there's a moment where I can't avoid brushing past someone.
Given that you've been diagnosed, I'm a little concerned about the use of the present tense here...

EDIT: Nevermind! That was JRVJ, not JAHV. Sorry! Please consider investing in a longer, more distinctive, perhaps baseball card-themed handle.
   97. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 05:01 PM (#5960447)
EDIT: Nevermind! That was JRVJ, not JAHV. Sorry! Please consider investing in a longer, more distinctive, perhaps baseball card-themed handle.


I lurked on this site for years and years before I finally got the nerve to make an account...and then I almost didn't because I couldn't think of any good wordplay. I realized shortly after I made this account that JRJV was already around, but nothing struck me as better, so I kept this handle. You're right that I should figure something out, though. It's confusing. I should probably just use the actual meaning, which is "Just Another Halo Victory" in honor of the late, great Rory Markas, but that seemed too on the nose. Your comment may have convinced me otherwise.
   98. PreservedFish Posted: June 30, 2020 at 05:14 PM (#5960449)
Thumbs up to that change, JAHV.
   99. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 30, 2020 at 05:17 PM (#5960450)
I was more of a Damion Easley guy, but I suppose it'll do.
   100. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: June 30, 2020 at 05:27 PM (#5960457)
I was more of a Damion Easley guy, but I suppose it'll do.


Easley had his moments. I ruled out Chad Curtis right away, of course. I thought hard about Jorge Fabregas and JT Snow, but when it came down to it, I just couldn't pass up the no batting gloves style of Gary D.
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