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Monday, September 13, 2021

Benches clear in Yankees-Mets game over alleged whistling drama

The Yankees whistled while they worked, and the Subway Series turned testy as a result.

It came to a head during the seventh inning of Sunday’s 7-6 Mets win, when Giancarlo Stanton hit a game-tying, two-run home run and slowed down after he passed second base to exchange words with Francisco Lindor, leading to the benches clearing before Stanton even touched home.

Lindor had jabbered at the Yankees as he rounded the bases during his second home run of the night in the bottom of the sixth, delivering a whistling gesture towards their dugout and then appearing to do the same toward pitcher Wandy Peralta.

“Over the past couple days — I can’t accuse them of whistling for the signs because I’m not 100 percent [sure],” Lindor said. “But I know what I heard. I felt like there was something out of the ordinary going on. I heard what I heard. I’m not accusing them. I’m not saying I heard them doing it 100 percent, because I don’t know 100 percent. But it definitely felt that way and I took that personally.”

 

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 13, 2021 at 10:24 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, yankees

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   1. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 13, 2021 at 10:58 AM (#6039415)

I'm a Mets fan, but if the Yankees were stealing signs legally and whistling to tip off their hitters, that's perfectly legal. You don't want them to do it, don't tip your pitches.
   2. The Duke Posted: September 13, 2021 at 11:33 AM (#6039422)
Baseball is still plagued with a simple issue. Technology is still allowed in and around the players. They need to ban it completely in the dugout and clubhouse and frankly in the front office during games.

Rampant sign-stealing didn’t happen until there was in-game tech
   3. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: September 13, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6039431)
Rampant sign-stealing didn’t happen until there was in-game tech


I do not think this is true in the slightest. There are countless players over the decades who were known for their sign-stealing abilities. The Cito Gaston Blue Jays of the 90s, for example, were well known for it.

The 1984 Cubs, the NL East champs that year, knew “the other teams’ signs better than our own,’’ said Oates, then a Cubs catcher, There are countless stories about how teams swiped the signs from opposing catchers to determine if a fastball or a breaking ball was coming.


Emil Bossard, the Indians’ head groundskeeper from 1932-68, regularly picked up the opposition’s signs with binoculars, according to his grandson, Roger, a third-generation expert who plied his trade with the Chicago White Sox.

“There was a yellow light in the far corner of the scoreboard,” he said in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. “If the light was on, it was a fastball.”
   4. Hot Wheeling American Posted: September 13, 2021 at 12:21 PM (#6039432)
I do not think this is true in the slightest.

Recency bias is certainly a risk here, but in more than twenty years on messages board, I really don't think I've come across someone as consistently wrong as The Duke.
   5. salvomania Posted: September 13, 2021 at 12:59 PM (#6039445)
I really don't think I've come across someone as consistently wrong as The Duke.

I feel slighted, as I'm almost always wrong whenever I make any type of argument here.
   6. Lassus Posted: September 13, 2021 at 01:45 PM (#6039450)
The most I got out of this was that Stanton doesn't seem to have the brains to walk and talk at the same time, and literally had to stop his home run trot to bark at Lindor, which seemed rather instigating.
   7. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 13, 2021 at 01:59 PM (#6039453)
Stealing signs and looking for tipped pitches is as old as professional baseball. Nothing wrong with that, teams have ways of safeguarding that info and should pay a penalty if they are negligent. Using technology to steal signs is a newer development, and has always been prohibited, even when enforcement hadn’t caught up with technology, as was the case with the Astros.
   8. The Duke Posted: September 13, 2021 at 02:17 PM (#6039460)
I said rampant sign-stealing. Of course there have been good sign-stealers in the past. The issue now is that the players in the dugout are fed the signals so that they can decipher them easily on the field. Very different from some guy at second base being able to randomly guess signs.
   9. The Duke Posted: September 13, 2021 at 02:20 PM (#6039463)
This isn’t really hard to discern. Every game where someone gets on 2nd base, the game slows down, people are looking at their hats, more mound visits, intentional balking of people to third. It’s obvious from watching the flow of games every night that something material has changed from days past.
   10. winnipegwhip Posted: September 13, 2021 at 02:22 PM (#6039464)
To build on what Harmon stated: Mike Jorgensen told a story about when he came over to the Expos from the Mets that Expos manager Gene Mauch told him all the Mets signs.

Stealing signs is not hard to do.

I don't think it was sign stealing the Yankees were doing. There was a tell that Walker must have been doing. When a guy has not won since the All Star break one figures he is tipping something.
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: September 13, 2021 at 03:01 PM (#6039475)
Klapisch said it was only Peralta whistling, to cheer on his team or something.
#shrugemoji

but Walker gave up 5 early runs and then retired I think his last 16 batters, and Villar stopped to talk to Walker I think at the exact or almost exact inflection point. I think A-Rod said it could be the pitcher or the catcher reacting differently depending on what was coming.
   12. RJ in TO Posted: September 13, 2021 at 03:53 PM (#6039487)
I do not think this is true in the slightest. There are countless players over the decades who were known for their sign-stealing abilities. The Cito Gaston Blue Jays of the 90s, for example, were well known for it.
I thought the Jays under Gaston were known more for figuring out when pitchers were tipping their pitches, but I realize that's a somewhat fine distinction, and it also may have been a blend of both.
   13. Jose Is An Absurd Balladeer Posted: September 13, 2021 at 03:54 PM (#6039488)
I have no problem with the Yankees stealing signs and no problem with the Mets calling them on it. Stantons just gotta run out his home run. If he wants to chat at Lindor that’s fine but keep running. If you can’t run and yell at the same time learn how.
   14. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:01 PM (#6039492)
Despite several comments here, Stanton did keep moving, he just turned sideways to impart some ‘veteran wisdom’ to Lindor when he came within his vicinity.
   15. winnipegwhip Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:01 PM (#6039493)
I wouldn't have applauded what Stanton did but I would give a standing ovation to Gardner's "two thumbs down."
   16. bfan Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:26 PM (#6039499)
I can't help but notice how well the Mets have played since the owner lit a fire under them, with some public comments. I do not think that lesson will be lost on the owner, either.
   17. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:30 PM (#6039500)
I wouldn't have applauded what Stanton did but I would give a standing ovation to Gardner's "two thumbs down."
It was kind of ironic coming from a guy who himself looks like a thumb. And just a few minutes after he had put on his standard grievance show after being rung up on a pitch that was indeed a strike.
   18. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:32 PM (#6039501)
I can't help but notice how well the Mets have played since the owner lit a fire under them, with some public comments. I do not think that lesson will be lost on the owner, either.
What lesson, false attribution of causality?
   19. winnipegwhip Posted: September 13, 2021 at 04:56 PM (#6039506)
I can't help but notice how well the Mets have played since the owner lit a fire under them, with some public comments. I do not think that lesson will be lost on the owner, either.


After the last week I would have laid even money that if you sat long enough at Billy Martin's grave you would see an apparition in a blazer and turtleneck with a shovel.
   20. John DiFool2 Posted: September 13, 2021 at 05:09 PM (#6039507)
Technology is still allowed in and around the players.


Except for the current pitcher and his catcher. Just go the NFL route and give both radios.
   21. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: September 13, 2021 at 05:11 PM (#6039508)
RJ in TO.

Yes, definitely the pitch-tipping. Google points to some related fragments, including this 1990 Tony LaRussa quote:

And then, warming to his task, La Russa confesses that when a team such as the Blue Jays gets a runner on second base, “they work hard to steal signs and that really irritates me.”
   22. Lassus Posted: September 13, 2021 at 05:25 PM (#6039510)
"...he just turned sideways..."

As will surprise no one familiar with YC, being generous, his relationship with the truth is tenuous.

Because, yeah, "sideways".
   23. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: September 13, 2021 at 05:42 PM (#6039516)
I think YC was kidding.

Just like he was kidding me when he told me, back when the R's were blocking Merrick Garland's nomination to the SC, that Roe V Wade was "settled law" and the Supremes "never" revisit settled law.

Actually, I think this time he is kidding. The other time he was just full of ####.
   24. RJ in TO Posted: September 13, 2021 at 06:00 PM (#6039518)
Yes, definitely the pitch-tipping. Google points to some related fragments, including this 1990 Tony LaRussa quote:

And then, warming to his task, La Russa confesses that when a team such as the Blue Jays gets a runner on second base, “they work hard to steal signs and that really irritates me.”
On the one hand, LaRussa has long been a whiny bastard, especially when he comes out on the losing end of anything. On the other hand, claiming a pitcher is tipping his pitches is a great cover for actually stealing signs.
   25. Howie Menckel Posted: September 13, 2021 at 08:34 PM (#6039534)
Keith Hernandez just had some plausible speculation on the whistling from the dugout - perhaps erasing the mystery of how players in the dugout could see something that a batter couldn't see.

he said the third base coach might have been able to see the ball in RHP TWalker's glove - then if he likes, he could stand up straight if fastball, hands on knees if curveball, etc. then the players along the rail could pass it on.

Keith didn't see this as cheating, but he didn't like any of the later "histrionics" that he deemed "unprofessional" - that would include both Lindor and Stanton.
   26. The Duke Posted: September 13, 2021 at 10:04 PM (#6039544)
The Hernandez discussion seems implausible but interesting. Seeing the grip me, then Two signals being delivered in enough time for a batter to actually use the info doesn’t seem likely. Possible but not likely.

His larger point is a good one. If you are picking up signs on the field you don’t need someone from the dugout to whistle.

It’s technology that driving it - which is why everyone is so paranoid.
   27. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 14, 2021 at 09:10 AM (#6039586)
I would much rather see Stanton slow down and stop on his HR trot than a Yankees reliever blatantly hit a guy.
   28. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 14, 2021 at 09:58 AM (#6039593)


The Hernandez discussion seems implausible but interesting. Seeing the grip me, then Two signals being delivered in enough time for a batter to actually use the info doesn’t seem likely. Possible but not likely.

His larger point is a good one. If you are picking up signs on the field you don’t need someone from the dugout to whistle.


Whistling is a very quick way to relay the information and allows the batter to keep his eye on the pitcher. If the 3B coach was the one whistling it would be very obvious and alert the opposing team pretty quickly.
   29. Captain Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: September 14, 2021 at 10:16 AM (#6039595)
Keith Hernandez? LOL!
   30. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 15, 2021 at 10:24 AM (#6039783)
I said rampant sign-stealing. Of course there have been good sign-stealers in the past. The issue now is that the players in the dugout are fed the signals so that they can decipher them easily on the field. Very different from some guy at second base being able to randomly guess signs.


All the way back in 1900, the Phillies were caught stealing signs using an electronic system. A little-used backup catcher named Morgan Murphy sat behind center field and read the signs with a pair of field glasses, and then used electrical wires to transmit a signal to a buzzer buried under the area along the third base line where Phillies third base coach Pearce Chiles habitually stood. Chiles then passed the signal on to the batter manually.
   31. bunyon Posted: September 15, 2021 at 10:41 AM (#6039790)
I well remember how, when Nap Lajoie hit a walkoff home run against Brooklyn, he waved frantically at his teammates not to dig up the coach's box as he triumphantly rounded third.
   32. Darren Posted: September 15, 2021 at 12:02 PM (#6039797)
I well remember how, when Nap Lajoie hit a walkoff home run against Brooklyn, he waved frantically at his teammates not to dig up the coach's box as he triumphantly rounded third.


That was very suspicious too, since the tradition at the time was to bring out a shovel, dig a hole in the coach's box, and bury the opposing pitcher in effigy.
   33. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 15, 2021 at 12:07 PM (#6039801)
Lajoie explained that he had received a bad tattoo, and thus had killed the tattoo artist and buried him in the coach's box.
   34. pikepredator Posted: September 15, 2021 at 12:32 PM (#6039803)
the last four posts made this thread worth reading. Quality work by the gallery.

I've always been a fan of low-key taunting. The turn-and-jabber-during-my-home-run-trot wouldn't be my style. At most, a wolf-whistle-and-wink at Lindor on the way by.

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