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Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Bisher Unleashed: Loose Ends

I never thought Furman would make it while Chlorophyll Kid and Stone Boy failed. Boy, was I ever wrong.

Talk about suing for non-support, how about Javier Vasquez? You don’t see better games pitched than the beauty he laid on the Pirates Thursday, and then was told after eight innings he was coming out. He had plenty left, but he became victim of the most incomprehensible mode that has inflicted big league managers, one of the most flagrant, Bobby Cox. Whoever started counting pitches, and deciding that 100 is the killer number should be sentenced to forever in purgatory. Poor Valdez, he came out after 113 pitches—the number given to me—and his fate was left to Rafael Soriano, tall, lean, hairy and inconsistent, and who immediately blew the game. Come on, Bobby, when a pitcher paints a beauty like Vasquez, at least let him finish his work of art. OUT WITH PITCH COUNTING!

—

Pitch around Chipper and you’ve just about solved the Braves offense. Stick around. Jeff Francoeur ain’t through yet.

Repoz Posted: June 17, 2009 at 12:24 PM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
Tags: braves, hall of fame

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1. Cris E Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:13 PM (#3221975)

113 is the new 100.

2. Downtown Bookie

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:32 PM (#3222003)

He had plenty left.

I'm betting that he didn't. More importantly, Bobby Cox, a man in a much better position than myself or the author to judge, bet Vasquez didn't. Cox lost this time, but his track record indicates he's right more often than he's wrong.

Pitching eight solid innings in a game does not automatically mean that you're the best available player to pitch the ninth, anymore than running one mile faster than everyone else on the track means that you can immediately thereafter enter a one hundred yard sprint and be the fastest in that as well.

DB

3. RJ in TO Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:38 PM (#3222009)

Why is he referred to as both Vasquez and Valdez in the excerpt?

4. flournoy Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:39 PM (#3222010)

Vazquez will never get his name spelled correctly.

5. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:44 PM (#3222017)

Vazquez struck out 2 in the 8th and the other out was a ground ball. There's plenty of reason to believe that he could go in the 9th. Granted, he was facing the bottom of the order, which is probably why he was pulled--Cox wanted Soriano to face the top of the order. And Soriano has been pretty much lights out this year. Cox wasn't wrong in bring him in, but Vazquez wasn't wrong in saying he could have pitched.

I like how Bisher at one point calls him "Valdez." Stay sharp Furman.

6. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:46 PM (#3222021)

So there's 61 players with 2000 or more strikeouts, and the only one with a worse winning percentage than Javy is Bobo Newsom. This probably says something, but I can't imagine what.

7. The District Attorney Posted: June 17, 2009 at 01:52 PM (#3222030)

Cox wanted Soriano to face the top of the order. And Soriano has been pretty much lights out this year.

Yeah, but he's hairy!

8. Hector Moreda & The Generalissimo Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:41 PM (#3222091)

I like how Bisher at one point calls him "Valdez." Stay sharp Furman.

I may just hug the next editor I meet. They must be the unsung heroes of the world of sports journalism.

9. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt!

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:44 PM (#3222095)

Come on guys, Bisher is a million years old. I respect the guy for remembering where his keyboard is.

10. Dr Love Posted: June 17, 2009 at 02:57 PM (#3222117)

Come on guys, Bisher is a million years old. I respect the guy for remembering where his keyboard is.

He thinks it's a typewriter.

11. Shock of the Desert Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:04 PM (#3222224)

113 is the new 100.

Yes.

I hate it when people (not just Bisher, this is very common,) whine about 100 being the "magic limit" when it just isn't. Maybe for young starters it is, but most of the time when a vet is pitching well he will throw 115-120.

Vazquez was at 102 pitches after 7 innings. Oh noes, the killer number! But it wasn't, Cox put him out there for another inning...

12. cardsfanboy

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:33 PM (#3222272)

I'm betting that he didn't. More importantly, Bobby Cox, a man in a much better position than myself or the author to judge, bet Vasquez didn't. Cox lost this time, but his track record indicates he's right more often than he's wrong.

I disagree, Cox is very much a person captured by the 100-110 pitch monster. He wouldn't have cared how comfortable Vazquez was pitching he would have pulled him. I have no doubt that a true fan watching the game would have been more capable of telling if Vazquez was gassed or not than Bobby Cox.

Vazquez was at 102 pitches after 7 innings. Oh noes, the killer number! But it wasn't, Cox put him out there for another inning...

what is the difference between 102 and 113. heck a 11 pitch inning in the 8th pretty much proves that he was still in control. Control is the first thing that a pitcher loses control as he gets tired. I'm a huge fan of bringing the pitcher in to finish the ninth, with instructions that you will get pulled if you put a man on base.

13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 04:48 PM (#3222293)

What the hell does Bobby Cox know about handling a pitching staff?

Why is he referred to as both Vasquez and Valdez in the excerpt?

I thought baseball was getting over-run by Rodriguezes, according to Andy Rooney.

14. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: June 17, 2009 at 05:01 PM (#3222319)

what is the difference between 102 and 113. heck a 11 pitch inning in the 8th pretty much proves that he was still in control. Control is the first thing that a pitcher loses control as he gets tired. I'm a huge fan of bringing the pitcher in to finish the ninth, with instructions that you will get pulled if you put a man on base.

15. cardsfanboy

Posted: June 17, 2009 at 05:32 PM (#3222375)

This is true, and if you want to argue that Cox should have left Vazquez in as a matter of strategy, that's fine. But Bisher isn't claiming that, he's claiming that Cox saw Vazuqez' pitch count, went "Oh my stars!" and pulled him because of that. I don't see any reason to think that.

I don't put much faith into anything Bisher says, except about pearl harbor, he's right there. and I don't think anyone seriously critiquing managers managing by pitch counts, really mean 100 is a magic number, but what they mean is that a manager probably overvalues the pitch count number in evaluating his move. I'm a huge fan of pitch counts for players who are still in their arby years (for various reasons) but after that I think you need to be more about how well he is going and what can happen in the upcoming inning. I think that people are saying that pitch counts should only be one portion of the evaluation of a pitcher, and yet it somehow has become the primary tool.

16. PepTech Posted: June 17, 2009 at 06:07 PM (#3222440)

I just hope people are still ######## about anything I say when I'm 90.

"tall, lean, hairy, and inconsistent." Are all those things equally bad?

17. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 17, 2009 at 06:11 PM (#3222445)

113 is the new 100.

Bisher hopes this rings true when he gets there in 2 years.

18. Shock of the Desert Posted: June 17, 2009 at 06:21 PM (#3222461)

what is the difference between 102 and 113. heck a 11 pitch inning in the 8th pretty much proves that he was still in control. Control is the first thing that a pitcher loses control as he gets tired. I'm a huge fan of bringing the pitcher in to finish the ninth, with instructions that you will get pulled if you put a man on base.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just pointing out the idea that the manager said "oh noes, 100 pitches" and yanked the pitcher based solely on that is nonsense. He was over 100 pitches already, and Cox still sent him out for another inning; the idea that 100 is therefore some magic number for managers is bogus.

It probably had at least something to do with the fact that the top of the order was due up in the ninth and Cox decided a fresh reliever would be better against the betters, which isn't wrong. Big deal that he got the bottom of the order out on 11 pitches.

19. Dr Love Posted: June 18, 2009 at 01:14 AM (#3223003)

I hate to make Bisher look good, but Vasquez just led off the 7th. However, he's only thrown 77 pitches.

20. wjones Posted: June 18, 2009 at 02:42 PM (#3223374)

What is it with Bisher and Frenchy all of a sudden? It seems like every article posted has something about him. Maybe they pal around now since Smoltz is gone.

21. Gaylord Perry the Platypus (oi!) Posted: June 18, 2009 at 04:28 PM (#3223510)

I think one thing that needs to be considered is that Cox doesn't manage for the single game. (When the team has talent, this is considered to be a Good Thing. Cox gets praise for his level-headedness and his calming influence. When the team has less talent, like this year and the past few, Cox get blasted for his "lack of fire" and being too laid-back.) Taking that into consideration, Cox will always pull a pitcher where it might seem to be "too early". I suspect that he views this as a two-fold benefit to the team - the pitcher leaves in a good position (it's often seemed that Cox really likes to keep his starters in line for a "W" and protects them from getting an "L" whenever he can), and it improves the odds of getting more good starts out of the pitcher. Because winning a game on Thursday doesn't help much if one of your best pitchers struggles the next two times he pitches.

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Wednesday, June 17, 2009

Bisher Unleashed: Loose Ends

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