31-Tie. Minnie Minoso

I was looking up Minoso in BRef for comparison vs. "oldest OF" in another thread, and I see his birth year as 1925. I remember it being 1922 back in the day (I could check my old baseball cards tonight). He and Musial would have been old corner OFs sandwiching a young Curt Flood, but Minoso didn't play much in 1962.

Did he have a reverse age-gate thing at some point?

They should have been listed in reverse order (i.e. #50 to #1) but other than that, I like it.

I guess I don't get why so many people didn't vote Pete Rose #1. He may not be eligible, but he's definitely the best player not in the Hall, which is what he as asking.

3. Raines
2. Rose
1. McGwire

By WAR the top 15 position players not in are:

Of course some are not yet eligible...
If Rose had quit after 1982 he'd move up 2 spots, right behind Griffey, basically his last 5 years he was sub replacement level...

What it should say is best 50 20C MLB players not in the HoF.

Black players mostly got 3-4-5-6-7 votes, or 1/5 as many as Roger Maris and Steve Garvey. Except Buck O'Neil, the sentimental choice of 22 voters, 3X as many as knew who HR Johnson was. Cupid Childs got 1 vote, same as Willie Davis and Bernie Williams.

19C players got on the ballot and mostly got 0-20 votes. Bill Dahlen the exception with 24 votes, same as Maris, less than Garvey. Deacon White got 13, same as Norm Cash.

I wouldn't have included Bagwell, Walker and Brown as candidates, particularly in the absence of other retired but not yet voted on players such as Bonds and Clemens.

Pete Browning once again ignored. You are 13th in both career BA and adjusted OPS+, you are one of the main causes of the "Louisville Slugger" brand and one of the finest players in the major-league American Association and yet you are apparently tied for 49th best player not in the HOF.

22-Tie. Keith Hernandez (34): This list is loaded with first basemen, perhaps because there are so many good ones not enshrined. Hernandez isn’t the only former MVP first baseman or perhaps not even the best defender at his position, though he’s certainly one of the top three or five. Hernandez was simply a very good player for the majority of his career, save for a rapid decline at the end.

I'm a little surprised at that comment. Who could possibly rank ahead of Hernandez defensively? I was always under the impression that Hernandez as the best ever defensively was pretty much a given. (as to the value of first base defense, that is a different story)

of course this guy made some mistakes on his personal ballot(I mean he had a ballot with fifty names and missed Evans and McGriff) I have to slightly criticize his voting system in that he ranks all the players equally on the ballot, it would have been interesting to see weighted numbers(50 points for a first place vote, 1 point for a last place vote) but considering how tough it was to get 60+ ballots, I thing that keeping it simple might have made it easier to get ballots back.

Who could possibly rank ahead of Hernandez defensively?

In the very next entry he has Gil Hodges as the best def. 1B ever.

I was looking up Minoso in BRef for comparison vs. "oldest OF" in another thread, and I see his birth year as 1925. I remember it being 1922 back in the day (I could check my old baseball cards tonight). He and Musial would have been old corner OFs sandwiching a young Curt Flood, but Minoso didn't play much in 1962.

Did he have a reverse age-gate thing at some point?

The story is that a decade or so ago, in an interview Minoso said that he had lied about his age when he was playing ball -- only that instead of pretending to be younger than he actually was (which is how every other ballplayer who ever lied about his age, and there were gazillions of them, did it), Minoso says he pretended to be older than he actually was, in order to be able to join the Cuban Army as a means of escaping the sugar cane fields.

He may be telling the truth about this, of course, but I remain skeptical. If he lied about it before, he might just as well be lying about it now. I consider Minoso's age to be a question that will almost certainly never be conclusively answered.

Cut him in half and count the rings.

It's a very unshocking list. (Bert Blyleven? No sh-t! Ron Santo? You don't say! Don Mattingly would have been better if he hadn't gotten hurt? Whoo-ee, we're through the looking glass now!) A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

In the very next entry he has Gil Hodges as the best def. 1B ever.

yep, read that after I posted my comment. Does that actually jibe with many others out there, maybe since Keith was a Cardinal I've paid more attention to him on this, but not sure if I've ever heard the Hodges best ever line before.

A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

That's easy---Pete Rose.

It's a very unshocking list. (Bert Blyleven? No sh-t! Ron Santo? You don't say! Don Mattingly would have been better if he hadn't gotten hurt? Whoo-ee, we're through the looking glass now!) A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

to me it's a shocking list in that is says something about the voters more than anything else, I mean out of 63 voters, 7 of them couldn't find a spot on their 50 ballot list for Blyleven?

A cross-reference to the Hall of Merit would be useful, but I don't have the time to toss it together today...hopefully someone else will do so soon.

A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

It's a wonkier question but it does have a bit more edge to it. Repoz repro'd that list for us, and a quick perusal of it would indicate that the answer is probably Guy Hecker. I think Hecker and Caruthers ought to be enshrined simply because they were the best of the "double duty" guys who could exist in the early game, and such an extinct skill set really deserves more appreciation. (EDIT: yes, I know that Hecker and Caruthers didn't have 10 years....rules are made to be broken!)

That's easy---Pete Rose.

I'm certain he's gotten some write in votes even if they don't count.

Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?

Jim Wynn is in the Hall of Merit but got no Hall-of-Fame votes his one time on the ballot (1983).

I've heard Hodges and Vic Power referenced in multiple places as best defensive first baseman. I never saw either one play but they seem to be the only ones who get significant support for such a title besides Hernandez (who would get my vote).

I've heard Power mentioned before, but I guess I blacked out all the mentions of Hodges as part of the hype from fans of him or something. Or did Bill James write something completely dismissing Hodges defensive reputation that might have caused me to ignore the claims? (oh well, no big deal, must be the old age synapses going)

I've heard Hodges and Vic Power referenced in multiple places as best defensive first baseman.

Wes Parker would get a few votes, too, I think.

That's easy---Pete Rose.

I'm certain he's gotten some write in votes even if they don't count.

Maybe so, but I've never seen any references to that other than a few writers saying that they "would have" voted for him. OTOH Shoeless Joe did get a vote or three during the early years of voting, which is why I didn't name him as the best.

He and Musial would have been old corner OFs sandwiching a young Curt Flood, but Minoso didn't play much in 1962.

Like Earle Combs and Pete Reiser before him, Minoso had a ruinous collision with the concrete wall at Sportsman's/Busch I. After Minoso completed that trifecta, they finally padded the damned thing for its few remaining years.

I've heard Hodges and Vic Power referenced in multiple places as best defensive first baseman.

For many years it was considered more or less a tossup between Hal Chase and George Sisler for best defensive first baseman, to the point where a fair number of writers used Sisler's glove artistry to rank him above (seriously) Gehrig.

For many years it was considered more or less a tossup between Hal Chase and George Sisler for best defensive first baseman, to the point where a fair number of writers used Sisler's glove artistry to rank him above (seriously) Gehrig.

Sheeeyittt. Babe Ruth used glovework to rank Hal Chase over Lou Gehrig.

Maybe so, but I've never seen any references to that other than a few writers saying that they "would have" voted for him. OTOH Shoeless Joe did get a vote or three during the early years of voting, which is why I didn't name him as the best.

Pete gets write-in votes every year. Presumably, those votes are immediately tossed out because he's not eligible for election.*

* Interestingly enough, BBRef does list his vote totals for 92-94, though the Hall's rule prohibiting players on the ineligible list from being elected predated those elections.

A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

It's a wonkier question but it does have a bit more edge to it. Repoz repro'd that list for us

Repoz's list isn't HoF balloting; it's for the same Top 50 that the article announces. Two of the first three names I checked, Kingman and Wertz, each got HoF votes.

Pete Rose got 15 write-in votes in 2001 alone.

That's easy---Pete Rose.

I'm certain he's gotten some write in votes even if they don't count.

That was always part of the BBWAA voting story in the 90's, how many write-ins votes Rose received. In some years a couple dozen, IIRC.

I'm sure that many of the voters in this project boycotted Rose.

40-Tie. Darrell Evan (24):

From 1978-80, Roger Metzger (SS) and Darrell Evans (3B) were teammates on the Giants. Metzger, disheartened from having to back up the worst player in the history of major league baseball, cut off his fingers. Evan, disheartened by his non-induction to the HOF, seem to have cut off the last letter in his last name. Or maybe it's a typo.

yes, I know that Hecker and Caruthers didn't have 10 years....rules are made to be broken!)

Actually, Caruthers did play ten years, only he didn't pitch in his last year, 1893.

As for zero HOF votes, our friend Graham Womack wrote a little about this in his blog last summer.

The zero Hall of Fame votes dream line-up

Be sure to read Bill Deane's comment after the article.

Pete Browning once again ignored...yet you are apparently tied for 49th best player not in the HOF.

If you're a WAR-monger, Browning is the 509th best player in history, far from the HOF circle, tied with Danny Darwin, Al Leiter and Claude Passeau.

If you're a WAR-monger, Browning is the 509th best player in history, far from the HOF circle, tied with Danny Darwin, Al Leiter and Claude Passeau.

73rd in WAR batting....

If you're a WAR-monger, Browning is the 509th best player in history, far from the HOF circle, tied with Danny Darwin, Al Leiter and Claude Passeau.

73rd in WAR batting....

73rd in WAR batting....

285th in career offensive WAR, tied with Chuck Knoblauch.

From the article, regarding Dick Allen: "and he bounced back from a mid-career lull to win the 1972 American League MVP."

Find the mid-career lull in these numbers:

OPS+, Dick Allen's first 13 seasons:
162
145
181
174
160
165
145
151
199
175
164

If it's 145 and 151, there are players in the Hall of Fame because of their bats that never had two consecutive years with OPS+ that high....

Browning's 5300 plate appearances has to hurt any consdideration. When Hal Trosky can look at your career and say you need more playing time to enter the discussion, then you really don't have a case.

Dick Allen's lull could have to do with

games played
1968 152
1969 118
1970 122
1971 155

Rifkin, Johnny couldn't carry Doug Flynn's jockstrap.

Still, I'd hardly characterize 32 hr/89 rbi with a .288/.375/.573 (1969) and 34 homers in Busch II---the most hit by a Cardinal between 1954 and 1987---with 101 rbi and a .937 OPS (1970) as a "lull" (unless maybe you're Babe Ruth), even if they did occur in seasons in which he played only 118 and 122 games.

Ron Cey deserves better. He's down in the weeds. Better player than his teammate Garvey, who's in the top 50. He's a damn similar player to Tony Perez, who's in the Hall (though in my mind shouldn't be).

I don't think Ron Cey is a Hall of Famer, but I think he might be the best player who never, *ever* gets that "say, what about this guy as a Hall of Fame candidate?" conversation.

I don't think Ron Cey is a Hall of Famer, but I think he might be the best player who never, *ever* gets that "say, what about this guy as a Hall of Fame candidate?" conversation.

Agreed. Even when he was playing, Cey never received anything close to his due in terms of recognition of how damn good he was. The reason, I think, was because he just looked so funny, that observers could never get past his odd build and stop calling him "The Penguin" long enough to perceive him simply as a ballplayer.

Re: Pete Rose

Barry Bonds has appeared on exactly as many ballots as Rose and also has no votes, so I go with him.

What struck me about this exercise was how many good players are outside the hall. In my first pass I marked 75 players and had to whittle the list down a few times to get to 50. Of the first 75, I don't think they all should be in but I would not vehemently object if any one of them got elected. A list of 75 better players than Jim Rice, in other words.

Of the first 75, I don't think they all should be in but I would not vehemently object if any one of them got elected. A list of 75 better players than Jim Rice, in other words.

Heh.

which is how every other ballplayer who ever lied about his age, and there were gazillions of them, did it),

I love you, Steve, but lots and lots of of Hispanic players said they were old enough to sign contracts when they weren't.

Here's a list: players who are not HoF, not HoM, but got at least 20 points (which usually involves at least 2 HoM voters) in 2011. The top two, Palmiero and Cone, are highly likely to be elected to the HoM in 2012, which would take them off this list, and the next several after that have at least some chance in 2012.

Rafael Palmiero (1B, hasn't had a HoF vote yet)
David Cone (SP)
Rick Reuschel (SP)
Luis Tiant (SP)
Dick Redding (SP)
Gavy Cravath (RF)
Don Newcombe (SP)
Bucky Walters (SP)
Fred McGriff (1B)
Bobby Bonds (RF)
Bob Johnson (OF)
Tommy Bridges (SP)
Sal Bando (3B)
Ed (Ned) Williamson (3B)
Burleigh Grimes (SP)
Tommy Leach (3B/CF)
Bus Clarkson (3B)
Ben Taylor (1B)
Johnny Pesky (SS)
Buddy Bell (3B)
Bob Elliott (3B)
Albert Belle (LF/RF)
Elston Howard (C)
Tommy John (SP)
Bill Monroe (2B)
George Van Haltren (CF)
Bert Campaneris (SS)
John Olerud (1B, hasn't has a HoF vote yet)
Norm Cash (1B)
Vern Stephens (SS)
Fred Dunlap (2B)
Davey Concepcion (SS)
Dwight Gooden (SP)
Kevin Appier (SP)
Carl Mays (SP)
Urban Shocker (SP)
Wally Schang (C)
Babe Adams (SP)
Dale Murphy (CF)
Ken Singleton (RF/DH)
Don Mattingly (1B)
Ed Cicotte (SP, not eligible for HoF)
Al Rosen (3B)
Lee Smith (RP)
Frank Tanana (SP)
Jack Quinn (SP)
Luke Easter (1B)
Thurnman Munson (C)
Larry Doyle (2B)

That's about 50. You can try making rosters out of them - the shortest supply seems to be of catchers. This list may be a little short of modern HoVG players (e.g. Ray Lankford) who are obviously short of the HoM and drop out of the balloting immediately. The 19th Century is represented there (Williamson, Van Haltren, Dunlap, Welch). The Negro Leagues are represented there, along with their non-league precursors and along with the slow and incomplete pace of integration (Redding, Newcombe, Clarkson, arguably Howard, Monroe, Easter).

Barry Bonds has appeared on exactly as many ballots as Rose and also has no votes, so I go with him.

Well, Bonds isn't eligible, but Rose is (wrt last game played).

A team with Newcombe, Walters, Grimes, and (probably) Redding would be getting some pretty good offense from the pitcher's spot in the lineup. I should note that besides catchers, we're also a bit short of 2B.

Rifkin, Johnny couldn't carry Doug Flynn's jockstrap.

About 3-4 months ago, I read the Doug Flynn page on Wikipedia. In this section, I contributed a few edits, which I show here in bold:

Flynn was a fielder who could play every infield position and had a high fielding percentage. However, he had poor range and was overrated in his time for his defense.

His role with the Mets became more defined when Felix Millan retired following the 1977 season, and Flynn assumed the job of their everyday second baseman for the 1978 season. He won the National League Gold Glove Award at second base for the Mets in 1980. He won that award despite playing in only 128 games (1151.3 innings) at second base. Phil Garner of the Pittsburgh Pirates played 151 games (1348.3 innings) at second base, and Garner had a 5.66 Range Factor per 9 innings, while Flynn had just a 5.27 RF, which put him below league average. According to Baseball-Reference.com, Garner's defense was worth 1.4 Wins Above a Replacement player, while Flynn's was worth 0.6 WAR in 1980. [1] (Over the entire course of his career, Flynn had a defensive WAR of -4.2, meaning an average minor leaguer called up as a replacement player would have won 4.2 more games with his defense than Flynn won with his.) [1]

If I get shot tomorrow, check out Flynn's alibi.

Here's a list: players who are not HoF, not HoM,....
Rafael Palmiero (1B, hasn't had a HoF vote yet)
.
.
.
Burleigh Grimes (SP)
.
.
Ben Taylor (1B)

These two are hall of famers. Also Welch, whom you mentioned later.

What struck me about this exercise was how many good players are outside the hall.

Absolutely. If you think about it from a "positive spin" perspective, the Hall is actually positioned to have a terrific run of adding players without really "degrading" the product (certainly to a far lesser extent than what happened at the hands of "Frisch et amis"). If the VC can somehow be persuaded to get their collective heads out of their buttcracks, the Hall will keep people interested in their "product" and lessen the heartburn of all the aggrieved parties in the process. In the past, the VC picked up the slack for the BBWAA reasonably well, but the wheels fell off that wagon and all of the so-called "remedies" have just made it worse. That backlog, however, is so much gold waiting to be mined.

Hi guys,

Glad to see this has sparked some discussion.

I noticed some of you asking who the best players were to get zero Hall of Fame votes. Here are four possibilities: Hal Trosky, Vern Stephens, Jimmy Wynn, Mike Cuellar.

Also, Vic Willis, who is enshrined, supposedly never got any votes for Cooperstown.

Rose has definitely gotten votes, even if they didn't count. In 1992 alone, he beat out 20 of the 36 other players on the ballot including Bobby Bonds, Bobby Grich, and Vada Pinson.

A more interesting question to me is "Who is the best player to have gotten zero HoF votes?"

Years ago I listed players w/zero HOF votes by career Win Shares. The highest (according to TheBaseballGauge.com, he had 297.5 career WS) was Ken Singleton. As I recall -- I'll see if I can't find the original somewhere -- there were a lot of mid-1970s KC Royals on that list.

I noticed some of you asking who the best players were to get zero Hall of Fame votes. Here are four possibilities: Hal Trosky, Vern Stephens, Jimmy Wynn, Mike Cuellar.

It's always a little weird to say that a guy shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame but that I think some voters should have mistakenly voted for him. But that said, I'm surprised Cuellar didn't get any votes. He won a Cy Young award, won 20 games 4 times, pitched in 3 World Series (and did pretty well, only 2-2 but a 2.61 ERA in 41.1 IP). But what's really odd is that his most-similar pitcher on BB-Ref, Dave McNally(*), has practically the exact same resume as him - 4 20-win seasons, his best Cy finish was 2nd, but he pitched in a 4th World Series (he also pitched extremely well in the World Series - 4-2, 2.34 in 50 IP), and McNally got Cy Young votes 4 different times (although he never got more than 2.8% of the vote, so I don't really understand why he was on the ballot 4 times). Cuellar had one more career win than McNally, 185-184, and a slightly better career ERA, 3.14 - 3.24.

Was McNally's role in bringing about free agency enough to make the difference. If anything, I'd have thought the BBWAA would hold that against him. Of course, we're only talking about a maximum of 12 votes that McNally ever got. And, as I said, since I don't think either one of them are Hall-of-Famers, it's not like I can really fault any BBWAA voters for not giving Cuellar an undeserved vote or two.

(*) I always thought this was one of the coolest similarity-score results. These guys really were the same pitcher (in terms of results at least), except that one was from Cuba and one was from Montana: throw strikes, keep the ball in the park, and let the best defense in the last half-century do its job.

Rose has definitely gotten votes, even if they didn't count. In 1992 alone, he beat out 20 of the 36 other players on the ballot including Bobby Bonds, Bobby Grich, and Vada Pinson.

Didn't remember whether or not they were actually written on the ballots, but in that case my Post # 14 bites the dust.

Graham, I liked your dream lineup of zero vote-getters, but there's no way they'd ever beat your All-Overrated HoF team. OTOH that may have been a bit of forgiveable hyperbole on your part.

And BTW I also liked your exchange with Sol Gittleman about Reynolds-Raschi-Lopat, where you said it's too bad that nobody wrote a poem about them. There's definitely something to that, and it's also too bad that the HoF doesn't have a spot for great rotations made up exclusively of non-HoFers.

Thanks DanG - I knew I'd probably make some mistakes in that direction. Consider the list with those corrections.

but there's no way they'd ever beat your All-Overrated HoF team. OTOH that may have been a bit of forgiveable hyperbole on your part.

The problem there is picking players like Tinker-Evers-Chance, Gaylord Perry, Dave Bancroft, and so on, for the "overrated HoF" team. Those guys could play some ball. There are worse players in the HoF - considerably worse - and you'd have to go for them if you want this team to lose to the outsiders.

The problem there is picking players like Tinker-Evers-Chance, Gaylord Perry, Dave Bancroft, and so on, for the "overrated HoF" team. Those guys could play some ball. There are worse players in the HoF - considerably worse - and you'd have to go for them if you want this team to lose to the outsiders.

Just when Jesse Haines thought he was out of the game... they pulled him back in.

Rose has definitely gotten votes, even if they didn't count. In 1992 alone, he beat out 20 of the 36 other players on the ballot including Bobby Bonds, Bobby Grich, and Vada Pinson.

Didn't remember whether or not they were actually written on the ballots, but in that case my Post # 14 bites the dust.

If I find the time I'll pull some of the legit Rose votes from the past few years.

I love you, Steve

Oh, stop, you devil. People will talk.

but lots and lots of of Hispanic players said they were old enough to sign contracts when they weren't.

You are entirely correct, of course.

In the modern era. Back in Minoso's day, there was no issue about signing contracts "when they were old enough." Teams signed anybody they wanted to, 15 year olds, whatever. There were no age restrictions.

Thus the distinct pressure on players was to be perceived as young as possible. Thus lots and lots and lots of players of the '40s, '50s, and '60s presented themselves as younger than they actually were. It wasn't rare in the least.

Within his era, Minoso's confessed prevarication is, to the extent of my knowledge, unique.

I think my biggest regret in my list of 50 was leaving out Charley Jones seeing as he got zero votes. I think he is the only Hall Of Merit member to not get a single vote. And he was possibly the last player I eliminated to get down to 50. (Sigh). Anyway, Graham talks about possibly doing this annually so maybe next year "we" can try and do better!

5-Tie. Jeff Bagwell: Career OPS+ 149
9. Edgar Martinez (48): Career OPS+ 147
11. Dick Allen (46): Career OPS+ 156
16. Fred McGriff (38): Career OPS+ 134
17-Tie. Will Clark (37):Career OPS+ 121
20-Tie. Mark McGwire (36): Career OPS+ 162