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Wednesday, May 04, 2022

Bumgarner ejected after puzzling exchange with ump

ne of the D-backs’ most steady starters, three-time World Series champion Madison Bumgarner was ejected from the series finale against the Marlins on Wednesday after the first inning.

Bumgarner had to be held back by two coaches, a teammate and manager Torey Lovullo after he appeared to enter a heated exchange with first-base umpire Dan Bellino following a sticky substance check and the final out of the inning. During the exchange, Bellino appeared to check Bumgarner’s hand manually but without breaking eye contact with the starter. The content of the exchange was unclear. Bumgarner had seemed to take issue with at least one ball/strike call during the inning.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: May 04, 2022 at 02:08 PM | 67 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: madison bumgarner, sticky stuff

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   1. shoelesjoe Posted: May 04, 2022 at 06:19 PM (#6075204)
Lord save us from umpires with bruised egos.
   2. Howie Menckel Posted: May 04, 2022 at 07:07 PM (#6075207)
good news for those in attendance who were hoping to witness a memorable performance from Dan Bellino !
   3. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: May 04, 2022 at 07:19 PM (#6075209)
Did MadBum tell the ump that if it was up to Andy over at Primer, robo umps would be here and you'd be in the unemployment line you slacker!
   4. The_Ex Posted: May 04, 2022 at 07:51 PM (#6075217)
Will Bellino face any discipline for this? I assume not.
   5. manchestermets Posted: May 04, 2022 at 07:54 PM (#6075219)
Lord save us from


pitchers

with bruised egos.



Yes, the ump was being a dick but Bumgarner flipping like that was dickish too. Isn't part of being a great player to not let #### like that wind you up?
   6. sunday silence (again) Posted: May 04, 2022 at 07:56 PM (#6075221)
I hate when someone starts getting all touchy feely just as my Greenies are kicking in.
   7. Adam Starblind Posted: May 04, 2022 at 08:46 PM (#6075234)
There’s something about being an umpire. Even the little league ones are dicks. It’s like they have a couple of hours to make up for being betas the whole rest of their lives.
   8. shoelesjoe Posted: May 04, 2022 at 09:22 PM (#6075244)
Yes, the ump was being a dick but Bumgarner flipping like that was dickish too. Isn't part of being a great player to not let #### like that wind you up?

Bumgarner didn’t “flip” until after he was tossed. His supposed sin in the eyes of the umpire was wanting a consistent strike zone. Outrageous, I know. He threw two pitches in the same spot to the same batter, and the first was called a strike while the second was called a ball. Umpires are human, and all that, but they can either be good at their job or they can grow a thick skin. Bad umps with big egos should have no place in the game.
   9. sunday silence (again) Posted: May 04, 2022 at 09:35 PM (#6075249)
no no no. Look at the video that in the linked article At 1:28 he said something to him under his glove when he was on the mound before the final out. Then he said something to him at 1:39. Then he got tossed.

THis is stoopid to start shitting on umps for this. You can't go out there and do your job if players are just going to cuss and swear at you. they have to be under control. Totally on MadBum.
   10. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 04, 2022 at 11:11 PM (#6075277)
   11. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 04, 2022 at 11:25 PM (#6075278)
There’s something about being an umpire. Even the little league ones are dicks. It’s like they have a couple of hours to make up for being betas the whole rest of their lives.


Now I'm triggered. I was a HS ump for many years, and as a community service, I served as a LL ump for many years as well. It was hot and miserable, and I was surrounded by people who didn't know the first thing about baseball rules. "You called the infield fly on us but not them!" You called a dropped third strike on us but not on them!" I also had to deal with coaches who wanted me to be a babysitter: "Their bench is making farting noises while my batters are at the plate. Make them stop!" I was attacked by 11 year olds who were pissed off I called strike three... #### that noise. I'm in full gear, 90 degree+ temps for 3 hours and I have idiot parents yelling at me that I suck for the entire game, all for $25. Thank your lucky stars you had such ########, because if you didn't, your kids would never get to play.
   12. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:03 AM (#6075282)
Now I'm triggered. I was a HS ump for many years, and as a community service, I served as a LL ump for many years as well. It was hot and miserable, and I was surrounded by people who didn't know the first thing about baseball rules. "You called the infield fly on us but not them!" You called a dropped third strike on us but not on them!" I also had to deal with coaches who wanted me to be a babysitter: "Their bench is making farting noises while my batters are at the plate. Make them stop!" I was attacked by 11 year olds who were pissed off I called strike three... #### that noise. I'm in full gear, 90 degree+ temps for 3 hours and I have idiot parents yelling at me that I suck for the entire game, all for $25. Thank your lucky stars you had such ########, because if you didn't, your kids would never get to play.


Yes to all of this except the $25. Our Little League doesn't have the funds to pay umpires so I do all my games free. But I've never tossed anyone from a game yet, and I hope never to have to (although I've taken my share of abuse). I've certainly missed calls and I hate every time I do. But I do the best I can so that the kids can have fun.
   13. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:11 AM (#6075284)
Yes to all of this except the $25. Our Little League doesn't have the funds to pay umpires so I do all my games free. But I've never tossed anyone from a game yet, and I hope never to have to (although I've taken my share of abuse). I've certainly missed calls and I hate every time I do. But I do the best I can so that the kids can have fun.


When our organization refused to do any more LL games because of the issues I raised before, they had to have parent volunteers umpire games. After a season of that, they begged us to come back. Our number one demand was that there be a board member at every game to deal with the parents and coaches. They refused, and so we did not support them ever again.
   14. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:20 AM (#6075286)
(although I've taken my share of abuse)


God bless you. No volunteer should take abuse from anyone.
   15. SoSH U at work Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:27 AM (#6075289)
Now I'm triggered. I was a HS ump for many years, and as a community service, I served as a LL ump for many years as well. It was hot and miserable, and I was surrounded by people who didn't know the first thing about baseball rules. "You called the infield fly on us but not them!" You called a dropped third strike on us but not on them!" I also had to deal with coaches who wanted me to be a babysitter: "Their bench is making farting noises while my batters are at the plate. Make them stop!" I was attacked by 11 year olds who were pissed off I called strike three... #### that noise. I'm in full gear, 90 degree+ temps for 3 hours and I have idiot parents yelling at me that I suck for the entire game, all for $25. Thank your lucky stars you had such ########, because if you didn't, your kids would never get to play.


I did one game a few years back. There's a runner on first. Kid hits a grounder where the first baseman steps on first to get the out. The lead runner gets to second, but gets confused, and retreats back to first before the play is complete. This ####### coach comes out and starts ######## he should be ruled out. I politely tell him that the kid is free to retreat to the bag he came from on the play once the force was taken off, and simply touching second doesn't invalidate that.

Two days later, he shows up at another game and starts ranting about how the umpires don't know the rules, how it's embarrassing to the league, etc., in front of dozens of parents. He then opens the rule book to the page he thinks vindicates him, and I point out that he was wrong, again. No apology for blatantly insulting me (and every other ump working for a few bucks). He just walks away.

So yeah, #### that bullshit Starblind.
   16. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:35 AM (#6075292)
I did one game a few years back. There's a runner on first. Kid hits a grounder where the first baseman steps on first to get the out. The lead runner gets to second, but gets confused, and retreats back to first before the play is complete. This ####### coach comes out and starts ######## he should be ruled out. I politely tell him that the kid is free to retreat to the bag he came from on the play once the force was taken off, and simply touching second doesn't invalidate that.


It's unbelievable the crap that these guys come up with. I had a guy argue that because the throw from the 2B to first bounced ( and subsequently caught in time), the batter-runner should be safe because throws caught on the bounce don't count. I called a balk on a pitcher who turned and faked a throw to 2B and then continued his motion to throw the pitch, and the coach argued that Luis Tiant used to do that all the time. I can't count the number of times a batter swung on a pitch that hit them and got #### because I didn't award the batter first base.
   17. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 05, 2022 at 12:38 AM (#6075293)
Two days later, he shows up at another game and starts ranting about how the umpires don't know the rules, how it's embarrassing to the league, etc., in front of dozens of parents. He then opens the rule book to the page he thinks vindicates him, and I point out that he was wrong, again. No apology for blatantly insulting me (and every other ump working for a few bucks). He just walks away.


You should have ejected him right then and there. I had a coach continue arguing a call from the previous game at the plate conference and I said "One more word on that...". He shut up.

But that was a HS game. Ejections have consequences there. In my experience, LL does not support the umpires, so I have no idea what an ejection, or threat of ejection actually means. probably nothing.

   18. Lassus Posted: May 05, 2022 at 08:06 AM (#6075298)
It’s like they have a couple of hours to make up for being betas

Yeah, the umps. They're the problems. Not the, uh, alphas.
   19. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 05, 2022 at 01:23 PM (#6075351)
When our organization refused to do any more LL games because of the issues I raised before, they had to have parent volunteers umpire games. After a season of that, they begged us to come back. Our number one demand was that there be a board member at every game to deal with the parents and coaches. They refused, and so we did not support them ever again.


I don't know if it's this way everywhere, but there's a huge problem finding umpires in our area. Parents of youth baseball players seem to think umpires just appear out the cornfields when it's time for the game to start. While I said earlier that our league can't afford to pay for umpires, that's partially true; we do have some budget set aside for games we simply can't fill with volunteers (which is becoming more and more each season). Our league's umpire coordinator can't even find people to hire for lower level games. We've got a high school kid who's asking for $65 per game, and we had to pay it because we had no one else and that's CHEAPER than we can find through a service. Thankfully, the kid was good.

I enjoy umpiring a lot because I get to have a front row seat for baseball while I apply my knowledge of the rules. It's rewarding to provide the service. I get my 12-year-old son out there to do the bases with me, and he also enjoys it. Unfortunately, I think it does tend to attract some people who enjoy the control aspect of it, and instead of defusing situations, they like to assert their authority, which just enrages ignorant, control-freak managers. It leads to problems, and those problems carry on into subsequent games where these managers begin inning one with a chip on their shoulders, spoiling for a fight. And then I have to deal with it. It's a tough gig.
   20. Tim M Posted: May 06, 2022 at 10:20 AM (#6075505)
I umped one game in my life, little-league age, it was quite fun except for that one part on a close pitch, the little guy looks back at you with eyes begging you not to call a strike, but ... STEEEE-RIKE 3, and down slumps the shoulders and he trudges back. No arguments or anything nasty. I guess there's some guys who enjoy that feeling of power, I sure don't. I'd make a lousy cop.
   21. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 06, 2022 at 10:35 AM (#6075508)
There’s something about being an umpire. Even the little league ones are dicks. It’s like they have a couple of hours to make up for being betas the whole rest of their lives.

Now I'm triggered. I was a HS ump for many years, and as a community service, I served as a LL ump for many years as well. It was hot and miserable, and I was surrounded by people who didn't know the first thing about baseball rules. "You called the infield fly on us but not them!" You called a dropped third strike on us but not on them!" I also had to deal with coaches who wanted me to be a babysitter: "Their bench is making farting noises while my batters are at the plate. Make them stop!" I was attacked by 11 year olds who were pissed off I called strike three... #### that noise. I'm in full gear, 90 degree+ temps for 3 hours and I have idiot parents yelling at me that I suck for the entire game, all for $25. Thank your lucky stars you had such ########, because if you didn't, your kids would never get to play.

Well, when I played in the DC version of Little League, our parents never came to the games and the umpire at our home playground turned out to be a perv.

Okay, that's all I got.
   22. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: May 06, 2022 at 10:40 AM (#6075510)
Our town had an incident this past weekend. The local Angel Hernandez (nice dude, lousy ump) called out a 12 year old on a pitch well off the plate. Hey, this guy has been calling that pitch a strike for 20 years, everyone knows it. The 12 year old's dad responded in a perfectly reasonable and mature way by following the guy in his car afterwards and at a stop light screaming at him for about 30 seconds.

I tell the kids I coach the same thing all the time. Don't argue with the umpire or your mother, you can never win the argument and in all likelihood you are going to make things worse.

Umpiring is fun. Because of the incident above we couldn't get umpires this weekend so coaches were asked to step in. I did a couple of games (first time since high school for me) and had a blast. Probably missed a few calls behind the plate, think I got the stuff on the bases and fair/foul right and generally no incidents. Like so many things 99% of the people are perfectly fine but that 1% just manages to make it awful.

And let's point out that the calls MadBum was pissed about were right.
   23. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 11:51 AM (#6075518)
I enjoy umpiring a lot because I get to have a front row seat for baseball


Except LL is not baseball. Yeah, there would be the occasional well pitched game and that was fun. But more often than not it was a 3 hour walkfest. 18-16 in four innings with 5 hits and 47 walks. Then they removed the time limit. You had to play 6 innings no matter how much time it took (weather and mercy rules excepted).
   24. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 12:23 PM (#6075523)
Except LL is not baseball. Yeah, there would be the occasional well pitched game and that was fun. But more often than not it was a 3 hour walkfest. 18-16 in four innings with 5 hits and 47 walks. Then they removed the time limit. You had to play 6 innings no matter how much time it took (weather and mercy rules excepted).


Now I'm triggered. I don't know what Little League you're referring to, but that's certainly not the case in our Little League. Our major games (11-12 year-olds) generally get 6 innings in about an hour and 45 minutes. The team I coach played one game, a 3-2 nailbiter we won on a walk-off single, go nine innings because it was tied. We finished in less than two hours - there were hits, walks, good defense, exciting plays at the plate. Sure, there are a few games that have gotten wild and end up as 13 - 11 with a bunch of walks and errors, but those are the exceptions rather than the rule.

Since I coach at the major level, I mostly umpire AAA, which is the 8-10 year-olds. Those games do involve more walks and there are fewer clean hits, but it's still not quite as bad as you're purporting it to be. And the difference between the beginning of the season and now is noticeable. The kids have improved a ton and even the bottom of the lineup hitters have started taking good swings and putting the ball in play. Little League is definitely baseball.
   25. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 12:33 PM (#6075526)
The 9-10 year olds. The 11-12 were usually pretty decent. 13-15 were usually pretty rough as well, as they just went from a 45 foot pitcher's plate to a 60' one. Maybe the talent level in the Florida Keys is also greatly lacking compared to your area.
   26. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 12:40 PM (#6075528)
The minors (9-10) would play on Thursday and Saturday. Teams would have 2, maybe 3 OK-decent pitchers. Due to mandatory rest days depending on pitches thrown, teams would have either no one decent on Saturday, or no one on Thursday because they were saving them for Saturday.
   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 12:47 PM (#6075530)
Last time I umpired was intramural softball in college. The one at bat I remember is last inning, a game that's already like 20-5 and this jerk keeps taking decent pitches (you could not walk) because he needs a triple or something for the cycle, and wants a meatball. I rang him up on a pitch about eye high.
   28. Howie Menckel Posted: May 06, 2022 at 01:21 PM (#6075540)
our parents never came to the games

it's interesting how this changed over time.

my parents each grew up in The Great Depression, and they left children's games to children.
almost all of our countless sporting events were played with no adult supervision whatsoever.

was that so bad?

my Dad did, for whatever reason, walk over to watch part of a Little League game my brother and I played in once (picture Burt Lancaster in Field of Dreams slowly walking down the right field line). that was fun, but otherwise it never occurred to most of us why our parents would watch us play children's games. there were a couple of parents who were managers or coaches in organized sports, but virtually no spectators at all for those and definitely none for most of our sporting activities.
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6075543)
it's interesting how this changed over time.

my parents each grew up in The Great Depression, and they left children's games to children.
almost all of our countless sporting events were played with no adult supervision whatsoever.

was that so bad?

my Dad did, for whatever reason, walk over to watch part of a Little League game my brother and I played in once (picture Burt Lancaster in Field of Dreams slowly walking down the right field line). that was fun, but otherwise it never occurred to most of us why our parents would watch us play children's games. there were a couple of parents who were managers or coaches in organized sports, but virtually no spectators at all for those and definitely none for most of our sporting activities.


My Dad would come to little league games, but never HS. My Mom pretty much never came. Maybe a couple of little league games.
   30. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6075545)
The 9-10 year olds. The 11-12 were usually pretty decent. 13-15 were usually pretty rough as well, as they just went from a 45 foot pitcher's plate to a 60' one. Maybe the talent level in the Florida Keys is also greatly lacking compared to your area.


My particular Little League (Anaheim, CA) isn't an especially great one. I don't know how we stack up nationally, but while we do well against the other teams in our city, we're usually outclassed by other leagues in the county.

The minors (9-10) would play on Thursday and Saturday. Teams would have 2, maybe 3 OK-decent pitchers. Due to mandatory rest days depending on pitches thrown, teams would have either no one decent on Saturday, or no one on Thursday because they were saving them for Saturday.


We play on Tuesdays/Wednesdays and Saturdays, so that helps with the pitching requirements. In general, you're correct that most teams at that level have two or three solid pitchers who can get the ball in the zone. But the good managers develop more kids so that by season's end, that number is four or five. There are still quite a few walks and strikeouts, but we've implemented a time limit in our local games (2 hours and 15 minutes is the drop dead time). At the beginning of the season, we were getting five innings in (sometimes four), but the last half of the season we finish games more often than not.
   31. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 02:00 PM (#6075546)
We play on Tuesdays/Wednesdays and Saturdays, so that helps with the pitching requirements.


The majors played on Tuesday. no one played on Wednesday, though it would have been the ideal mid-week day to play, because of church. Most of the churches in town had youth activities on Wednesday evenings, so the parents would not allow (as in pressured to board to not allow) Wednesday games.

But the good managers develop more kids so that by season's end, that number is four or five.


Good managers? I am unfamiliar with the term. No one did that, though obviously they should have. They all rode their top 2 or 3 for every pitch they could legally squeeze out of them.
   32. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: May 06, 2022 at 02:15 PM (#6075548)
All 12 kids on the team I coach throw at least one bullpen session a week. Generally every kid pitches at least once during the season. Having said that I have one kid who probably won't pitch this year. He's not very good and there is a real injury risk there. If I can get him out there to face 3 or 4 ten year olds in a row maybe.
   33. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 02:20 PM (#6075549)
Good managers? I am unfamiliar with the term. No one did that, though obviously they should have. They all rode their top 2 or 3 for every pitch they could legally squeeze out of them.


Maybe it's just because we have a good group of managers right now who are all very invested in the league being enjoyable rather than cutthroat, but as Little League has become passe due to its archaic rules, we've leaned into it somewhat to provide an alternative for parents and kids who just want a casual, fun experience. I have twelve kids on my major team - ten of them have pitched and nine of them have pitched in multiple games. It's great to be able to give that experience to a kid who probably won't get it once they reach the 60.5' mound in juniors.

The majors played on Tuesday. no one played on Wednesday, though it would have been the ideal mid-week day to play, because of church. Most of the churches in town had youth activities on Wednesday evenings, so the parents would not allow (as in pressured to board to not allow) Wednesday games.


We decided to condense the schedule for multiple reasons. It's tough to find volunteers to run the snackbar, so by having games on two different fields at the same park at the same time on three days instead of four or five, we decrease the amount of labor we need. That also leaves Monday, Thursday, and Friday open at every park for practice time. We don't have enough fields to be able to play the same division on the same day. None of our fields have lights and we only have one park with a nice enough grass infield for major games. It's not a great situation, but we make do.
   34. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 06, 2022 at 02:21 PM (#6075550)
our parents never came to the games


it's interesting how this changed over time.

my parents each grew up in The Great Depression, and they left children's games to children.
almost all of our countless sporting events were played with no adult supervision whatsoever.

was that so bad?


It sure gave us a lot more real life experience in learning to fend for ourselves, rather than depending on adults to organize our playtime.

my Dad did, for whatever reason, walk over to watch part of a Little League game my brother and I played in once (picture Burt Lancaster in Field of Dreams slowly walking down the right field line). that was fun, but otherwise it never occurred to most of us why our parents would watch us play children's games. there were a couple of parents who were managers or coaches in organized sports, but virtually no spectators at all for those and definitely none for most of our sporting activities.

My parents both worked full time, and it never would've occurred to either of them to take time off from work to watch me play, even when my high school team played in the city championship game. OTOH my mom kept a scrapbook of all my HS games that were written up in the newspapers.
   35. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 03:39 PM (#6075568)
It sure gave us a lot more real life experience in learning to fend for ourselves, rather than depending on adults to organize our playtime.


There's a real worry that if we left kids to fend for themselves when it came to playtime, none of them would leave the couch. It could be an illegitimate fear or it could be something that would be bad for a few years and then kids would figure it out and correct the issue, but it's definitely the prevailing thought. Of course, parents are significantly to blame in providing these sorts of things and being poor examples.

My parents came to most of my Little League games (late 80s, early 90s). I appreciated them being there, but I don't know that I have any specific memories that involved them as fans. I do have good memories of my Dad being my coach for a few years.
   36. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 03:48 PM (#6075570)
My parents both worked full time, and it never would've occurred to either of them to take time off from work to watch me play, even when my high school team played in the city championship game. OTOH my mom kept a scrapbook of all my HS games that were written up in the newspapers.


When I was growing up, my games were played 3.5 miles away (I just google mapped the distance). Riding a bike wasn't an option (busy suburban streets with no sidewalks, shoulders, or god forbid bike lanes) so getting a ride from an adult was the only option. When my kids were growing up, the field was 10 miles away.
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: May 06, 2022 at 03:56 PM (#6075571)
I rarely missed any of my kids' games, youth league through high school. I'm not sure they cared all that much whether I was there; I just enjoyed the hell out of watching them play.
   38. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: May 06, 2022 at 04:02 PM (#6075572)
I don't know that I have any specific memories that involved them as fans.


My guess is that's a good thing. They weren't embarrassing you, just cheering you on appropriately and not screaming at umps or ######## at the coach.
   39. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 06, 2022 at 05:08 PM (#6075573)
It sure gave us a lot more real life experience in learning to fend for ourselves, rather than depending on adults to organize our playtime.

There's a real worry that if we left kids to fend for themselves when it came to playtime, none of them would leave the couch.


I guess I should've added that our parents wouldn't have allowed that, even if we'd wanted to. And at least with my friends, baseball and other outdoor sports were far more attractive than TV, and this was long before video games and smartphones.

-------------------

When I was growing up, my games were played 3.5 miles away (I just google mapped the distance). Riding a bike wasn't an option (busy suburban streets with no sidewalks, shoulders, or god forbid bike lanes) so getting a ride from an adult was the only option. When my kids were growing up, the field was 10 miles away.

Yeah, that would make a difference. Our playground with 3 different baseball fields was within easy walking and bike distance. Our now-suburban neighborhood is 5 minutes away from a high school with baseball, football and soccer fields, and in our cul-de-sac about 15 or 20 small children are out there playing in the street every day for much of the afternoon.
   40. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 06, 2022 at 05:11 PM (#6075574)
My guess is that's a good thing. They weren't embarrassing you, just cheering you on appropriately and not screaming at umps or ######## at the coach.

The only screamer in our DC version of LL was one particular coach, a world class softball pitcher in his other life, who was an earlier version of Earl Weaver and Billy Martin when it came to his relationship with umpires. "Mad Dog Fred" was what we all called him. When he went into one of his tirades, we'd all just be laughing at him.
   41. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 06, 2022 at 05:38 PM (#6075577)
My guess is that's a good thing. They weren't embarrassing you, just cheering you on appropriately and not screaming at umps or ######## at the coach.


It's a very good thing. I have a vague positive feeling from knowing they were there consistently supporting me, but nothing that stands out as over the top.
   42. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 06, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6075578)
It's a very good thing. I have a vague positive feeling from knowing they were there consistently supporting me, but nothing that stands out as over the top.


We had 2 signs posted on the cyclone fence backstop behind the plate. "Players play, coaches coach, parents cheer." and "Before you complain, have you volunteered yet?" Both were equally ignored by most.
   43. Snowboy Posted: May 06, 2022 at 06:10 PM (#6075581)
Dad was at all my games, because someone needed to drive me. I grew up (late70s-80s) in a rural town of 1000 people, so since there weren't enough kids to organize a team (I played soccer and hockey, so we'd usually be 15 or so to a team, which is similar to baseball) we'd pair with two neighboring communities of about the same size; the rink was in one of them, the soccer fields in the other. We had some soccer fields and nice diamonds in our town, and some outdoor hoops, so we would ride our bikes around and play on them, but it was usually just a gang of 3-7 people, any actual team events had to involve a vehicle. And most of our away games were in a nearby city of 250,000. Then we moved to a small farm outside of town (just some hay and 15 cattle) but definitely someone had to drive me.

Dad was my coach half the time (even though he couldn't really skate and had never played soccer. He would take on the administration, and somebody else [usually another parent] would handle the actual coaching.) When he wasn't my coach, he would take me to the game or practice, but he wasn't glued to the action. He'd be in the arena but often stay outside the rink near the concession stand where it was heated, drink a coffee and talk to other parents, and smoke. (Mini cigars; Colts Rum & Wine Tipped.) And they didn't go outside to do it, back then. I'd come out of the dressing room after a game/practice, and there would be a blue haze drifting about seven feet off the floor. "Dad, did you see my second goal?" "No, son, tell me about it." (Not that this was his answer all the time, he would watch most of the time, and he would often stand along the boards and I could hear him yelling encouragement, and afterwards he would usually critique my game. But he wasn't one to hover, and he never got in a fight with an opposing parent or yelled at a ref. Well, one time...but it was mostly my game to play, learn, grow, and make friends or enemies in.)

My Mom almost never came. She would bring a lawn chair and sit with other mothers at soccer when I was young, but none of them paid much attention to the game, they were just chatting, enjoying the sun, and making sure the younger ones didn't wander too far and get eaten by a bear. Hockey was full-contact my whole youth, and she admitted she didn't want to come watch me as I got older, because I was a good player and was a target.

Even as a kid I noticed that Mom's father, an Irishman born in 1920 who emigrated in 1964, never once came to watch me play or run track and field. I could never really figure out if he was jealous of how much free time and organized sports I had to chose from, or that he just thought there was a child's world and an adult world and he didn't want to cross the line. Don't get me wrong, he was a fit individual with biceps like softballs, and he loved to watch boxing (Ali was his favourite), and he would play golf on Saturday and watch it on Sunday. But he would never come watch me (and we were a small tight family, my Dad had no siblings and parents had died, my Mom had one sister, and we as a family would always get together on holidays. So he knew that I set the city record in the 1500 in grade 8, and he knew that I made the provincial championships, and he knew that I would often score three goals in a game.)

A last story about my Dad, willingly driving me everywhere but not really paying attention. They enrolled me in a track school at the local university in the summer of 1983. I trained with some good coaches and good athletes. I was a boy at 13 and good in my age group, but one day I got put in a training group with a guy named Jeff Glass, who was like 20yo, so to me he was a grown ass man. (Glass would make the 1984 Olympic Final in the 110m hurdles.) I was so excited to run up into the stands after the workout "Dad, Dad, did you see me? I got to run with Jeff Glass, he's really fast!" My Dad looks up and he's got a tiny coil notebook and a pencil in his lap, and a transistor radio. It's the size of a pocket novel, with two notched rotary dials on the side (one for the channels, one for the volume) and a silver antennae pulled out to full extension. He's holding a single ivory earpiece in his left ear. "There has been a [Ontario provincial] cabinet shuffle" he says, showing me his notes. Notably Larry Grossman had been moved into Treasury, and Frank Miller had been moved out it, to Industry and Trade.

"So what do you think, Dad?" I wanted him to comment on my 200m repeats with a future Olympian, as I eased myself down onto the bench, my aching swollen long distance legs pulsing through my kneecaps, having grown an unfortunate six inches in less than a year.
"About what?" he grunted.
"Umm...about the shuffle, Dad? Do you think this means Premier Bill Davis is going to retire?"
   44. Snowboy Posted: May 06, 2022 at 06:14 PM (#6075582)
Hey, thanks to Misirlou, and JAHV, SoSH, for umping. Thankless job that pays nothing close to what it's worth, but is important. And Jose et. al. for coaching.
[edit] Hey Dan Bellino? Not cool.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: May 06, 2022 at 06:54 PM (#6075589)
Dad was at all my games, because someone needed to drive me.


I enjoyed those anecdotes, Snowboy.

but that doesn't quite explain it. most of my sports activities, I walked or biked to get there. but one year in Little League the field was too far away to bike. so one of my parents would drop my brother and I off, then run some errands and come back at an estimated time of the end of the practice or the game. if someone suggested they stick around and watch the game, they would have replied with a hearty chuckle. (and to be clear, they were absolutely wonderful parents across the board. they just figured adults did adult things and kids did kid things, and they weren't alone in their era in that regard. in the summer and on weekends, we'd be gone all day - and the parents didn't even know where us kids went.)

I'm now intrigued by the societal change, and why it might have happened - that is, the idea that many/most parents decided they wanted to spend countless hours watching kids games instead of doing other, adult stuff.

some posts mention enjoying watching their kids play, which is fine, obviously - but it wasn't always that way, until it was.

again, the coaching by parents part is different. I'm focused on parents who have no involvement with the team.

of course, many parents behave themselves so it's not an issue (other than a mild curiosity, for me anyway).
but as noted above, many do not behave. even if we assume they are taking put their frustrations about life, how perverse is it to do that by making a public fool of yourself in front of your own children (and many other kids and parents, too?).

I imagine some pretty good sociological research has been done on this front.

I have 10 adult nephews and nieces, and all were driven to and fro for their athletics. none of my siblings, nor their spouses, got into coaching, and their interest in the games was fairly minimal. I certainly never saw any of them get emotionally involved with an officiating or umpiring call.

and yes, much respect here to those who have served as umpires or referees for little to no pay. "Thankless job" sums it up pretty nicely, it seems.
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: May 06, 2022 at 07:13 PM (#6075592)
I'm now intrigued by the societal change, and why it might have happened - that is, the idea that many/most parents decided they wanted to spend countless hours watching kids games instead of doing other, adult stuff.


I can't imagine doing anything in my life as an adult that would have been more enjoyable than watching my son pitch or my daughter play soccer. Go to a bar? Watch MLB on TV or at the ballpark? What adult stuff was I missing out on?

I was also in the delivery room when all of my kids were born, which neither my father nor any of his friends were. Sometimes things just change for the better.
   47. Cagerfan Posted: May 06, 2022 at 07:35 PM (#6075597)
I coached my son from T-ball through Little League. I greatly enjoyed it. Most of the parents were cool.
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: May 06, 2022 at 07:38 PM (#6075599)
Sometimes things just change for the better.

well, this thread is chock full of examples of how things have gotten worse, too.

it's just different, is all.
   49. Jose is Absurdly Correct but not Helpful Posted: May 06, 2022 at 07:38 PM (#6075600)
To echo SoSH I have no kids but without question the best thing I’ve ever done in my life is coaching. Being out there with the kids is SO much fun. I can’t overstate how enjoyable it is. I also can’t imagine something more “adult” than teaching young kids about something I I love and hopefully being a positive role model in a small way in their lives.
   50. Howie Menckel Posted: May 06, 2022 at 08:13 PM (#6075602)
I did note (twice) that I was not referring to coaching.
   51. Adam Starblind Posted: May 06, 2022 at 10:01 PM (#6075614)
I meant that all umpires are dicks except you four guys.
   52. baxter Posted: May 06, 2022 at 11:41 PM (#6075627)
The ump apologized publicly today. Could that have been part of a disciplinary action?
   53. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: May 07, 2022 at 01:12 AM (#6075635)
I can't imagine doing anything in my life as an adult that would have been more enjoyable than watching my son pitch or my daughter play soccer. Go to a bar? Watch MLB on TV or at the ballpark? What adult stuff was I missing out on?

I was also in the delivery room when all of my kids were born, which neither my father nor any of his friends were. Sometimes things just change for the better.


I could not agree with this more. I understand that some might not have the luxury of getting time off of work to attend their kids' sporting events, and it breaks my heart, but I get it. I have that flexibility, though, and it's well worth it to get in the office a couple hours early so I can get off early and either coach or watch the game. I want to be at every single one of their events and I always enjoy it thoroughly.
   54. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 07, 2022 at 12:17 PM (#6075651)
My only adult friend who ever got involved in LL was a LL coach in Northern Virginia at the time (around 1973 IIRC) that girls successfully sued to play. He used to call me every day ranting and raving about the horror of it all. (He was also a big Richard Nixon fan.)

And then he wound up marrying one of the mothers of one of the first girls he was reluctantly forced to coach. Later they'd often go on one of those tours of MLB parks for their vacation.
   55. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 07, 2022 at 08:05 PM (#6075704)
it's just different, is all.
It speaks to how different generations value different things. This generation of dads just seem to really, really want those relationships. Anecdotally, very single one of my buddies have been That Dad that shows up to ballgames and concerts and, in my case, musicals and plays. To a man, they all either wanted to have the same great close relationship with their dad, or wanted to cultivate the close relationship with their dad that they didn't have. No one regrets the quality time they spent with their dads.
   56. Howie Menckel Posted: May 07, 2022 at 08:20 PM (#6075707)
agreed, if it's quality time (which the national umpiring/referee crisis in youth sports confirms is not nearly always the case. there's nothing quality about seeing your parents scream like toddlers at some kid not much older than yourself).

my father never yelled at me or threatened me or got drunk or ever did anything that made me feel unsafe. plus he and my mother drove 6 of us in a station wagon for three days from New York to Florida (Disneyworld) and back three times in four years when we were young. he was available to answer any questions, and he sacrificed a lot to have enough money to pay for our college. if I begged, he'd find a way to get us to a Mets game or New York Nets game on occasion.

oh, he and treated my mother like a queen (and rightfully so). talk about leading by example. they were married for 49 years (til death did they have to part), and their 5 kids have been married for a total of more than 170 years.

so my siblings and I felt quite close to him, because all those things combined meant a LOT.

and honestly, I don't feel as if him showing up for ballgames would have made us any closer (I did like it that he showed up that one time, and felt like it was him going yet another extra mile beyond everything else he did).

that said, for those who had fathers who fell short on a lot of the fronts I noted, showing interest in their kids' activities might well balance the scales - hopefully, and then some.

I like your observation of "different generations value different things."
   57. Hombre Brotani Posted: May 07, 2022 at 08:42 PM (#6075708)
I like your observation of "different generations value different things."
Well, we do. OR, if you like, we value the same things, but go about them very differently. My dad worked two jobs for the better part of two decades, dragged our entire family over from Taiwan, built a life for us, and still managed to impart life lessons. He never took an interest in the things I was interested in -- kids stuff, not important. I don't think NOT caring made him a bad father -- I worship my father -- on this, I want to do things very differently. I find that the other guys in my generational circle have a similar mindset. I think this is a better approach. You don't have to take that as criticism.
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: May 07, 2022 at 10:32 PM (#6075723)
no criticism taken, Hombre.

as I have thought more about this, I think that my parents' lives growing up in The Great Depression - particularly my mother's family, who was one of those "poor bastard families" that would be mentioned in church on Sundays as most worth playing for, as they spent some time homeless - led to them want their children to be able to avoid any real-life issues as long as possible. they didn't get that break, so they wanted to pass it down.

so not being involved in children's games wasn't from a lack of caring, but from an effort to separate kids lives from parents' lives. it worked quite well, obviously.

I agree that having that involvement - as long as it is fully supportive, with no negative pressure applied and no venting at others in the kid's presence particularly - is a positive. but I'm also realizing now that it's not at the top of the "food chain" of things a parent can do to be good role models. it is part of the dynamic, though.

so that's why I was curious about the change in focus. I appreciate your responses.
   59. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 07, 2022 at 11:04 PM (#6075727)
When my son was a HS freshman he was on the JV baseball team. I umpired a lot of his games. We couldn't officiate varsity games if our children were on the teams, but it was not considered a conflict for JV games. He played CF. In once game, the opposing team was coached by Jorge Posada*, who also coached 3B. My son made a great inning ending catch to save several runs, as as he walked back to the dugout, Posada said to me "Nice play by the CF there."

* As is customary, after the pre game plate conference, we all shook hands. Posada had the hugest hands of anyone I have ever met.
   60. Howie Menckel Posted: May 07, 2022 at 11:53 PM (#6075729)
sweet story, Misirlou.
   61. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 07, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6075731)
as I have thought more about this, I think that my parents' lives growing up in The Great Depression - particularly my mother's family, who was one of those "poor bastard families" that would be mentioned in church on Sundays as most worth playing for, as they spent some time homeless - led to them want their children to be able to avoid any real-life issues as long as possible. they didn't get that break, so they wanted to pass it down.

so not being involved in children's games wasn't from a lack of caring, but from an effort to separate kids lives from parents' lives. it worked quite well, obviously.

I agree that having that involvement - as long as it is fully supportive, with no negative pressure applied and no venting at others in the kid's presence particularly - is a positive. but I'm also realizing now that it's not at the top of the "food chain" of things a parent can do to be good role models. it is part of the dynamic, though.


My parents were married in 1931, and during much of that decade my father hitchhiked and took buses up and down the northeastern corridors in search of work, while my mother had a secretarial job under an assumed name---married women during the Depression were routinely fired on the theory that they were being supported by their husbands and didn't need the money. They waited 13 years to have children---I was a much-loved only child---and until we moved to Washington, when I was 6, they often took me across the street to Morningside Park to introduce me to baseball. But once we moved to DC in early 1951, both of them had full time jobs and no time to watch me play sports or anything else. But since our neighborhood was overrun with war babies and early Boomers, we didn't need them to schedule any of our spontaneous activities.

That arrangement worked for me, but it was as much generational as a conscious individual choice on my parents' part---helicopter parenting wasn't even on the horizon. There's also nothing wrong with the alternative practice of parents going to their children's games, as long as they don't act like the Parents From Hell and start taking those games more seriously than they deserve to be taken. The saddest thing in the world are children who are forced to live out the athletic dreams that their parents (fathers) never could fulfill. Even when it came to Senators' games, my parents took me to them until I was in 3rd grade, but after that they just gave me bus fare and money for a ticket and let me discover the ballpark on my own, or with friends my own age. Do children that age ever even go to games unaccompanied by adults any more? If not, I think they're missing something.
   62. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 08, 2022 at 12:26 AM (#6075732)
sweet story, Misirlou.


I've told this story before, but in the same game, I oversaw the only triple play of my umpiring career. Bases loaded, nobody out. 2-2 count on the batter. He calls time out and I grant it. As he is starting to step into the box, the pitcher winds up and throws. I immediately call "No pitch". The pitch was well outside. I then reiterate that the pitch does not count, and the count is still 2-2. The next pitch is a ball, and the batter and all the runners slowly trot to the next base as if that was a walk. The catcher runs up the 3B line to tag out the runner trotting to home, and then notices the runner from first retreating and fires there to get that guy. Meanwhile, the runner from second is taking his sweet time to get to third, so the 1B fires to the 3B to get him too. Triple play. As he walked back to the dugout, Posada was facepalmed the whole way.
   63. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 08, 2022 at 12:48 AM (#6075733)
* As is customary, after the pre game plate conference, we all shook hands. Posada had the hugest hands of anyone I have ever met.
Were they remarkably soft and…moist?
   64. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: May 08, 2022 at 01:00 AM (#6075735)
Even when it came to Senators' games, my parents took me to them until I was in 3rd grade, but after that they just gave me bus fare and money for a ticket and let me discover the ballpark on my own, or with friends my own age. Do children that age ever even go to games unaccompanied by adults any more? If not, I think they're missing something.


Well, that has to be adjusted for context. When I was a kid, Wrigley Field was an hour away, and Comiskey park 45 minutes. I didn't go by myself until I could drive. When my son was growing up, the Marlins played almost 2 hours away. When he was 16, I let him take the pickup to see the orange Bowl.
   65. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 08, 2022 at 01:39 AM (#6075736)
Even when it came to Senators' games, my parents took me to them until I was in 3rd grade, but after that they just gave me bus fare and money for a ticket and let me discover the ballpark on my own, or with friends my own age. Do children that age ever even go to games unaccompanied by adults any more?
Sad to say, but these days letting 9-year olds out on their own like that in the big city might be enough to trigger a child endangerment case, and even an effort to Take Their Children Away.
   66. SoSH U at work Posted: May 08, 2022 at 07:29 AM (#6075744)
As he walked back to the dugout, Posada was facepalmed the whole way.


You know it's bad when Posada recognizes awful baserunning.
   67. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: May 08, 2022 at 07:39 AM (#6075746)
Even when it came to Senators' games, my parents took me to them until I was in 3rd grade, but after that they just gave me bus fare and money for a ticket and let me discover the ballpark on my own, or with friends my own age. Do children that age ever even go to games unaccompanied by adults any more?

Sad to say, but these days letting 9-year olds out on their own like that in the big city might be enough to trigger a child endangerment case, and even an effort to Take Their Children Away.


It wouldn't surprise me, either, though even then the area around Griffith Stadium was one of the highest crime locations in Washington, and I never felt any danger. What countered any threat was that the trolley stops were within half a block of the entrance, and there were enough police in the immediate vicinity to deter any muggings, robberies, etc., against fans. In terms of crime surrounding ballgames, the most common incidents concerned fans whose tires got slashed in the parking lot when they refused to pay protection to hoods who offered to "watch" their cars in the parking lot. Since I was way too young to drive and we didn't have a car to begin with, that sort of crime never affected me.

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