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Tuesday, August 31, 2021

Can Fernando Tatis Jr. Achieve the Rarest “Double-Double” in Baseball History?

Should Tatis Jr. maintain his current pace in both categories, he’d finish the season with 45 HR and 31 SB, while venturing into uncharted territory by leading the league in SB while slugging .675 (a statistical benchmark never approached in the game’s history).

gehrig97 Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:47 AM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: barry bonds, fernando tatis jr., jimmy sheckard, ty cobb, willie mays

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   1. Mefisto Posted: August 31, 2021 at 06:19 PM (#6037529)
I'm not sure what "never approached" means, but Klein slugged .646 while leading the league in HR and SB, and Mays slugged .659 while falling 1 SB short of the league lead.
   2. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: August 31, 2021 at 07:49 PM (#6037546)
The HR/SB double is super cool and pretty darn rare, why you need to bring SLG % into the discussion to emphasise it seems a bit much. When you can be in a conversion with Cobb and Klein, well we know you are doing something really neat.
   3. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 31, 2021 at 09:06 PM (#6037559)
We might see double digit HR and wins this year. That's got to be pretty rare. Ruth in 18, Ohtani if he gets two wins in Sept, and who else?
   4. Howie Menckel Posted: August 31, 2021 at 10:10 PM (#6037572)
enturing into uncharted territory by leading the league in SB while slugging .675

I remember as a boy a half-century ago being in spirited debates in the schoolyard during recess over whether there was a single/double milestone more hallowed than leading the league in SB while slugging .675. there was just something so magical about .675

#saidnooneever
   5. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:05 PM (#6037581)
Can Fernando Tatis Jr. Achieve the Rarest “Double-Double” in Baseball History?

What Tatis is doing is impressive, but surely something that's happened three times in MLB history is unlikely to be the "rarest" of anything.

But that makes me wonder, what "double-doubles" (let's define this as leading the AL or NL in two categories) have been rarer? Bonus points if both are major categories.

Errors and home runs? Saves and strikeouts? Stolen bases and intentional walks?
   6. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:08 PM (#6037583)
Lefty Grove led the league in saves (retroactive) and strikeouts in 1930. And wins and ERA.
   7. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:11 PM (#6037584)
Ed Walsh led the league in saves and strikeouts twice, so we can eliminate that one.

In 1908 he won 40 games and led the league in starts, complete games, and saves. And innings, obviously.
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:15 PM (#6037585)
Homers/slugging and any pitching category Ohtani can manage to lead the league in.
   9. Howie Menckel Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:17 PM (#6037586)
I remember the NBA's Robert Pack getting the first "quadruple double" ever that included turnovers as one of the categories.....
   10. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:18 PM (#6037587)
Mays was #1 in SB and #2 in IBB in 1957
   11. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:30 PM (#6037588)
Mike Trout and Arky Vaughan have both led the league in stolen bases and intentional walks, but not in the same year. They're the only players I've found who have led the league in both categories (though, of course, IBB weren't recorded in Ty Cobb's day).

Willie Mays led the league in SB in 1957 and finished second in IBB (15 to Musial's 19). That's the closest I've found to a double-double in these categories.

Barry Bonds led the league in IBB basically every year, and stole a lot of bases, but never finished higher than third in the league. His best combo was first in IBB/fourth in SB in 1996. Rod Carew led the league in IBB three times and finished as high as second in stolen bases, but his best combo was also first in IBB/fourth in SB in 1975.
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: August 31, 2021 at 11:34 PM (#6037590)
But that makes me wonder, what "double-doubles" (let's define this as leading the AL or NL in two categories) have been rarer? Bonus points if both are major categories.


In 1918, Edd Roush led the NL in OPS+ and sacrifice hits.

   13. Sweatpants Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:12 AM (#6037593)
Errors and home runs?
Pedro Alvarez pulled this off in 2013.
   14. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:13 AM (#6037594)
In 1918, Edd Roush led the NL in OPS+ and sacrifice hits.

Heh, that's fun. He also led in slugging percentage. Imagine giving Mike Trout the "bunt" sign 35 times a year.
   15. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:17 AM (#6037595)
Pedro Alvarez pulled this off in 2013.

Nice. Howard Johnson also did it in 1991.

Incidentally, I see that Tatis is also leading the NL in errors this year (four-way tie), but now that he's been moved to the OF he's very unlikely to end the season in the lead.
   16. Booey Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:53 AM (#6037597)
Not too rare overall since it happened several times in the 1920's-1940's, but leading the league in homers and doubles has only happened once in the last 45 years (Belle in 1995) and only twice in the past 70 years (Stargell in 1973). Lots of players have led in both categories in different seasons.
   17. Kiko Sakata Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:55 AM (#6037598)
We might see double digit HR and wins this year. That's got to be pretty rare. Ruth in 18, Ohtani if he gets two wins in Sept, and who else?


Bullet Rogan in 1922 - 15 HR, 14 W for the KC Monarchs in the original NNL.
   18. Addie Joss Posted: September 01, 2021 at 01:52 AM (#6037599)
John Montgomery Ward led the NL as a nineteen year old pitcher with 47 wins and 239 Ks and then eight years later led the league as a shortstop with 111 SBs and five years after that with 88 SBs as a 32 year old second baseman. Apparently, during his time as a pitcher SB stats were not kept.
   19. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 02:11 AM (#6037600)
Babe Ruth (1924) and Jimmie Foxx (1933) both led the league in strikeouts and batting average in the same year. That was easier to do when strikeout totals were low, so there might be some others, but I don't think there have been any since WWII. Mickey Mantle and Andres Galarraga have led the league in both categories, but not in the same year.

Here's a random pre-1900 one: In 1883, Pud Galvin led the NL in strikeouts (as a batter) and shutouts. (He also led in games pitched, games started, complete games, and innings pitched, but his 46 wins were only second.)
   20. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 02:37 AM (#6037601)
Here's one you can use to inspire your children after a bad day/season:

In 1970, Reggie Jackson led the league in caught stealing, strikeouts AND outfield errors. He went on to become a Hall-of-Famer, and so can you!
   21. Walt Davis Posted: September 01, 2021 at 02:41 AM (#6037602)
Stathead gives 7 seasons with at least 10 games (not wins) at P and 10 HR -- Ohtani twice, Ruth twice, Rogan, Ed Rile ... and Willie Smith.

Ohtani hasn't made it to 10 wins in any season yet (8 this year). Ruth won 13 in 1918 (with only 11 HR which isn't that impressive for Ruth) but won only 9 in 1919. Rogan is credited as 14-8 with 15 HR in 1922 but never hit more than 7 in any other season.

Ed Rile, who I'd never heard of, was also in the NeL and went 11-6 with 11 HR in 1927 -- also a 1B, that was his only season with double-digit HR but also won 15 in 1923.

Willie Smith pitched a fair amount for the Tigers in 63 and the Angels in 64, mostly in relief though so never came anywhere near 10 wins. In 64, he appeared in 15 games with 1 GS, 1-4, 31.2 IP and a fine 2.84 ERA and 5.7 K/9 (pretty good for the era) and a line of 301/317/465, 125 OPS+ in 373 PA in the OF. He had 3 more solid bench OF seasons left but wasn't ever used much on the mound after that.

Fergie hit a fair number of HR but never more than 6 in a season. Zambrano also never topped 6. Bumgarner had a nice run across a few seasons but never more than 5 in a season. Guys I think of as good-hitting pitchers like Rhoden and Don Robinson never topped 3. Wes Ferrell had 9 in 1931 and a couple more 7s. Foxx never appeared in more than 9 games as a P and only hit 7 HR that year. Brooks Kieschnick never hit more than 7 and only 2 wins in his 96 relief IP.

EDIT: among those with at least one win and one HR, Old Hoss Radbourn seems to have the record for the sum with 61 -- 60 wins, 1 HR in 1884. Followed by Clarkson with 57, Guy Hecker with 56, Clarkson and Radbourn again at 51. Then I think it's Ohtani on his own at 50. So he should be moving up that leaderboard and has a shot at the all-time record with a good Sept.
   22. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 04:03 AM (#6037604)
Wes Ferrell's best two-way season was probably 1935: 25 wins with a 134 ERA+ in 322.1 innings as a pitcher, 7 HR with a 141 OPS+ in 179 PA as a batter. There can't be too many two-way seasons (let's say minimum 50 PA/50 IP) with OPS+ and ERA+ both over 130.

Bob Lemon did it in 1949, 134 OPS+/133 ERA+. Babe Ruth, somewhat surprisingly, never did it. He had a 122 OPS+ in 1916, which was the only year his ERA+ was over 130. Drysdale, Gibson, Larsen, K. Brett, Zambrano, Hampton, Bumgarner, Greinke, Rhoden, and D. Robinson never did it. Maybe Walt or someone else with Stathead can look for others.

Ohtani's got plenty of cushion at 163 OPS+/150 ERA+ right now and is at 137 OPS+/127 ERA+ for his career.
   23. TomH Posted: September 01, 2021 at 06:13 AM (#6037605)
Bill James pointed out long ago that Joe Gordon is 1942, led the AL in

- GIDP
- striking out
- errors (he made 28) at 2B

a lousy triple combo

... and he was awarded the AL MVP!
   24. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 01, 2021 at 06:57 AM (#6037608)
As of today, Tatis' power/speed number is eighty billion gazillion (more or less).
   25. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: September 01, 2021 at 07:00 AM (#6037609)
(Gordon) was awarded the AL MVP!

Hitting 322/409/491 with a 2.5 dWAR helped. (Teddy had a better year, of course, as he usually did.)
   26. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 01, 2021 at 09:53 AM (#6037629)
We might see double digit HR and wins this year. That's got to be pretty rare. Ruth in 18, Ohtani if he gets two wins in Sept, and who else?


German Marquez is only nine homers away.
   27. Rally Posted: September 01, 2021 at 10:05 AM (#6037636)
Wes Ferrell fell short by 1 homer in 1931.
   28. bunyon Posted: September 01, 2021 at 10:59 AM (#6037658)
Ok. This gives me something to root for down the stretch. Really hoping Ohtani can collect two more wins.

They need to give him Big Unit relief opportunities.
   29. pikepredator Posted: September 01, 2021 at 11:09 AM (#6037661)
Total bases and SB is Klein in '32, a few Cobb seasons, and then . . . Snuffy Stirneweiss during his epic 1945 campaign.

Add OBP and it turns into the Ty Cobb triple crown. Trout has led in all three, but in different seasons.

   30. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 01, 2021 at 11:48 AM (#6037667)
Jim Rice leading the AL in homers and triples in 1978 is pretty rare--Mantle and Mays both did it in 1955; there were 3 or 4 others in the dead ball era
   31. Nasty Nate Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:05 PM (#6037672)
Jim Rice leading the AL in homers and triples in 1978 is pretty rare--Mantle and Mays both did it in 1955; there were 3 or 4 others in the dead ball era
Has anyone done doubles and triples recently? I know Musial and Cobb and probably others did it many decades ago.
   32. bunyon Posted: September 01, 2021 at 12:19 PM (#6037675)
Didn't we just do this a few weeks ago?
   33. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 01, 2021 at 01:05 PM (#6037682)
Ohtani is already a 40/20 guy, and is leading the league in power-speed. Has anyone led the league in power-speed while recording double digit wins?
   34. Nasty Nate Posted: September 01, 2021 at 01:14 PM (#6037688)
Didn't we just do this a few weeks ago?
I think so. We'll probably do it again at the end of the season.
   35. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 01, 2021 at 02:44 PM (#6037717)
When did this guy actually look at Tatis's numbers? He was last at .677 slug August 17th. He's *down* to .640, and on pace for 29 steals. Very recently accomplished in 2018 by Betts (.640/30).
   36. villageidiom Posted: September 01, 2021 at 02:48 PM (#6037719)
But that makes me wonder, what "double-doubles" (let's define this as leading the AL or NL in two categories) have been rarer? Bonus points if both are major categories.
Complete games and saves.
   37. cardsfanboy Posted: September 01, 2021 at 03:08 PM (#6037724)
Complete games and saves.


A Dizzy Dean fan I see. (or Ed Walsh or Mordecai Brown or Cy Young)

Edit: although I do think that if you pitch a complete game and win by 3 runs or less, then you should also be credited a save. :)
   38. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 01, 2021 at 05:37 PM (#6037797)
Has anyone done doubles and triples recently? I know Musial and Cobb and probably others did it many decades ago.

Musial did it 4 times, Cobb 3--the last was Cesar Tovar in 1970; there have been 7 others
   39. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 01, 2021 at 05:52 PM (#6037802)
The answer is probably going to be something where recording a point in one category reduces your score in the other.

ER and ERA maybe.
CS and SB% is an interesting possibility, but I wouldn't be surprised if Rickey pulled it off.
   40. Nasty Nate Posted: September 01, 2021 at 06:13 PM (#6037810)
Musial did it 4 times, Cobb 3--the last was Cesar Tovar in 1970; there have been 7 others
Thanks
   41. Sweatpants Posted: September 01, 2021 at 06:50 PM (#6037818)
among those with at least one win and one HR, Old Hoss Radbourn seems to have the record for the sum with 61 -- 60 wins, 1 HR in 1884. Followed by Clarkson with 57, Guy Hecker with 56, Clarkson and Radbourn again at 51. Then I think it's Ohtani on his own at 50. So he should be moving up that leaderboard and has a shot at the all-time record with a good Sept.
Ruth had 61 in 1921 (59 + 2) and 55 in 1920 (54 + 1), unless he doesn't count because he didn't pitch in ten games.
   42. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 10:53 PM (#6037898)
The answer is probably going to be something where recording a point in one category reduces your score in the other.

ER and ERA maybe.
CS and SB% is an interesting possibility, but I wouldn't be surprised if Rickey pulled it off.


ER and ERA is interesting and there's probably a pre-1900 example. (Indeed, with a couple of clicks I found John Clarkson in 1889, 2.73 ERA and 188 ER -- plus 92 unearned runs -- over 620 innings.) But I think it's interesting because it's becoming more and more plausible with modern pitcher usage. If the qualification level stays at 162 IP (one inning per team game), we may start seeing seasons where only a handful of guys even qualify for the ERA title. If one of them pitches 230 innings and no one else tops 180, he could have a chance.
   43. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 01, 2021 at 11:06 PM (#6037904)
For CS and SB%, I checked Henderson, Raines, Coleman, Jose Reyes, and Brock, and they never did it. Maury Wills and Luis Aparicio both got close, leading in CS and finishing second in SB%.

Oh, here we go: Willie Mays in 1956 - 40 SB, 10 CS, 80% success rate, led the league in all three categories.
   44. Cooper Nielson Posted: September 02, 2021 at 04:29 AM (#6037927)
For ER and ERA, I found a post-WWII guy who got fairly close: Robin Roberts in 1955 finished second in earned runs allowed (only two runs behind the "leader") and second in ERA (though significantly behind Warren Spahn).

In Phil Niekro's remarkable 1978, he tied for the league lead in earned runs allowed and had an ERA of 2.88. While this was very good (142 ERA+), it wasn't in the top 10 in the league. However, he was closer to first (0.45 behind the leader) than Roberts was in 1955 (0.65 behind).

John Clarkson's 1889 was even crazier than I realized. Not only did he lead the league in earned runs and ERA, he also led the league in hits allowed AND walks allowed... and WHIP. (He pitched 620 innings and the second most was 420.)
   45. Walt Davis Posted: September 02, 2021 at 08:24 AM (#6037935)
In 1972 Wilbur Wood led the AL in ER and put up a 2.51 ERA ... which wasn't even top 10! Still, he was 2nd in WAR with over 10. Led again in 73 and had only 7.6 WAR.

Ron "Wheels" Santo led the NL in BB and triples in 1964. The idea of him leading in triples is funny enough, the BB and triples combo is probably pretty rare in the liveball era at least.

Geez, this one will win you a few drinks at the bar -- more career triples, Ron Santo or Rickey Henderson? That may now be my all-time favorite stat.
   46. TomH Posted: September 02, 2021 at 09:22 AM (#6037952)
MIKE CUELLAR 1970
Led the AL in
WINS 24
WPCT .750
GS 40
CG 21
but also in negative categories
ER 115
HR 34

He finished a very close 4th in Cy Young voting, picking up 6 first place votes out of 24.
BBRef has him as a very average pitcher (WAA about 0); considering the O's defense and his mediocre ERA< that sounds about right. Of course being a healthy workhorse DOES have value.
   47. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: September 02, 2021 at 11:36 AM (#6037977)
Geez, this one will win you a few drinks at the bar -- more career triples, Ron Santo or Rickey Henderson?


I wonder if Rickey took it easy out of the batter's box, knowing that he can probably have third base anyway, if he really wants it.

Here's a question: did Rickey have a really high top speed, or did he get really good jumps? (Obviously some of both, but you know what I mean.). If it was the latter, then maybe he wouldn't have been as gifted in legging out triples as one might think.
   48. Ron J Posted: September 02, 2021 at 12:03 PM (#6037984)
#47. His scouting report says, "very good speed". And for further emphasis on this it says, "He also has very good baseball instinct, which is evident in his base running. Acceleration and speed are the main qualities that are needed to become an outstanding baserunner. Henderson possesses both of these qualities. I would like to project a good future in baseball for this youngster" and (having noted earlier that he excelled in 3 sports), "I am impressed with this youngster mainly because of his all-round athletic ability. He is an athlete."

Best looking prospect in Alameda County Athletic League and the Oakland Athletic League. Draft him no lower than "AA".

No surprise. Not precisely top tier track speed but among guys who can actually hit a baseball, top tier in both top speed and acceleration.

EDIT:

Article with scouting report image
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: September 02, 2021 at 08:26 PM (#6038050)
Rickey really didn’t take advantage of his speed in any significant way in the batter’s box. He doesn’t have high doubles or triples totals, nor did he leg out a ton of infield hits or have a really high ROE total. He was pretty good at staying out of the DP for a right hander.
   50. Walt Davis Posted: September 04, 2021 at 04:00 AM (#6038239)
Rickey really didn’t take advantage of his speed in any significant way in the batter’s box.

Pretty sure nobody ever said this about Ron Santo either. :-)
   51. Walt Davis Posted: September 04, 2021 at 04:29 AM (#6038240)
Some other guys you might not think had more triples than Rickey: Ken Boyer, the infamous Ken Keltner (in just 6300 PA), Hank Greenberg (in just 6100 PA), Tony Perez. It's maybe not surprising that Juan Samuel had more but he had over 50% more in half the PAs.

Biggio's like Rickey, just 55 triples in 12,500 PA but over 400 steals -- no wonder he had so many doubles, probably 60-70 of them should have been triples.

So Rickey had about 1 triple per 200 PA. Min 6000 PA, PA>=195*triples, by #SB

1406 Rickey
414 Biggio
408 Tommy Harper (wouldn't have thought he made it to 400 steals)
349 Eric Davis
329 ARod
321 Concepcion
294 Renteria
289 Soriano
285 Baylor
281 Hanley

Active "leader" is Altuve with 260 SB and just 29 triples in 6225 PA. Stathead doesn't allow you to actually calculate the ratio or rank by it but ignoring C (VMart 3 in 8166 PA) and 1B (Mac 6 in 7660), looks like the worst is Mike Lowell with just 7 in 6500 PA. (Integration era only)

Russell Martin was a C but still made it to 101 SB but just 9 triples in 6648 PA. Among players with 100+ steals in the integration era, 10 players pass the SB/triple threshold of 10 -- Rickey, Lopes, EY Sr, Harper, Davis, Arod, Renteria, Baylor, Canseco and Martin.

ARod might be the worst -- power and speed but still only 31 triples, about 1 per 400 PA. One season with 5, one with 6. Only 6 triples after age 29.
   52. Mefisto Posted: September 04, 2021 at 08:45 AM (#6038246)
I suspect triples have more to do with (a) the park and (b) whether the hitter is a FB hitter or a LD hitter (the latter hits more triples). Speed is only a tertiary factor.
   53. Ron J Posted: September 04, 2021 at 10:41 AM (#6038259)
#52 As a possible confirmation of this notion I get Henderson as having led (or tied) his team in triples 7 times. And I can't find any case where a teammate hit substantially more than he did. Mind you I didn't check the tail of his career. But in the time he was really stealing a lot of bases he never played with anybody who hit a lot more triples.
   54. bunyon Posted: September 04, 2021 at 11:56 AM (#6038270)
The GOAT won his ninth game last night. One more to be the first 40 HR/10 W player.

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