With the shift being what it is, I could see this working on a straight steal - just run right past 2B instead of sliding and sprint to the open base at 3B. The hard part about these plays is not running into the fielder but the bases are bigger this year so there's a bit more base to work with.

This is one of the more brilliant things I have seen in baseball. And so heads up for a rookie like Gorman to implement it.

I've been advocating for that play forever. This is wonderful.

Ichiro did this before.

I've been advocating for that play forever. This is wonderful.

I could have sworn it came up this very week in a thread.

Ichiro could have done it all the time if he wanted to.

The Cardinals almost squeaked a 2nd run out of this play. But, the play would have been very close at second even with a slide, right? Should the SS have just thrown to first from the get-go, or was he reasonably assuming that the 2B would be able to do that if the runner was safe at second?

Should the SS have just thrown to first from the get-go, or was he reasonably assuming that the 2B would be able to do that if the runner was safe at second?

He still probably could have, but I think the shock of watching the runner sprint past him is going to typically confuse the fielder (in much the same way Javy's backtracking last year against these same Pirates confused the first baseman) and take that out of the equation.

But yes, for sure, it would have been an easy out if he had just thrown to first.

That was awesome. Between that and the Yadi-balk, this series has been pretty embarrassing for the Pirates.

Can a runner simply bowl the 2B/SS over if he decides to run through a play there ? You can't run the catcher but the catcher can't block the plate either.

That was awesome. Between that and the Yadi-balk and literally almost everything else, the last 40 years have been pretty embarrassing for the Pirates.

Can a runner simply bowl the 2B/SS over if he decides to run through a play there ? You can't run the catcher but the catcher can't block the plate either.

You can run over the catcher if he's blocking the plate. The runner here was obviously given a full lane to the bag. So no, he wouldn't have been allowed to truck him.

Various guys have tried this for the Cubs the past few years - I can think of instances of both Rizzo and Baez doing it - but I've never seen a defensive team fall for it. This is similar in spirit to the Javy play at 1b last year against the Pirates, it's pretty embarrassing for the players and frankly the coaching staff too.

but I've never seen a defensive team fall for it.

To be fair, recent versions of the Pirates have certainly been very offensive, so maybe that's why.

Fun to watch and good awareness.

The SS decision to flip to 2B was the critical error here, as mentioned above.

For fun, let's assume the runner slides safely into second base instead. Does the 2B have time to turn and throw to first to get that out? Does he have the awareness to do so? Based on the velocity of the groundball and the angles, I don't think they get the out at first (or even make the throw).

That said, the baserunning trick makes these questions moot so kudos to the Cards on that.

All fine until some MIF gets hurt and Manfred bans this.

I've never seen a defensive team fall for it.

What do you mean by that? Did the fielder just throw on to first instead, did they just beat the rnner to second or did they throw on to first after failing at second and get the out there?

I think if he slides he's out, but idk. Gorman isn't a particularly fast runner, is he?

I think if he slides he's out, but idk.

I think so too. It helps that the umpire always seems to call the guy out in that situation, even plays that look to me like the guy might have beaten the throw.

If he had slid, he was out

What do you mean by that? Did the fielder just throw on to first instead, did they just beat the rnner to second or did they throw on to first after failing at second and get the out there?

Either they still beat the baserunner to the bag or they just threw to first.

I guess I should say I don't think the intent is to trick the fielder, but that's what happened here.

Right, I think the intent is to be safe at second and force a rundown to allow the runner at third to score. If you trick the fielder, and/or the defense messes up the rundown, you can score another run or two.

Right, I think the intent is to be safe at second and force a rundown to allow the runner at third to score. If you trick the fielder, and/or the defense messes up the rundown, you can score another run or two.

The rundown isn't really necessary. As long as you beat the throw, and the middle infielder isn't able/doesn't try to get the batter at first, the guy who was on the third is going to score. You're likely to be tagged out before anything else happens (or, as was the case here, the guy who was going to third is tagged out), but it's a worthwhile sacrifice to make if you were going to be out at second.

There's a narrow window where the play makes sense (if you were going to be safe by sliding, you're giving away an out), but when the situation presents itself like here it's absolutely worth trying.

Right, I meant more "don't get out until the runner from third has scored"

There's a narrow window where the play makes sense

this brings up an interesting pt: Exactly how much time did Gorman have to make that decision? Im guessing less than 1/2 second. Honestly I have never heard of this tactic so Im guessing.

Exactly how much time did Gorman have to make that decision?

Very little. It was really good judgment on his part. I think he's out if he slides. Hell, if the second baseman had been aware and stretched for the throw, he might have been out anyway.

this brings up an interesting pt: Exactly how much time did Gorman have to make that decision? Im guessing less than 1/2 second.

I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I'm sure as soon as the ball was hit to the shortstop, Gorman was thinking about going in standing up.

But once the concept is there in the Cardinals' thinking, isn't it as simple as him knowing to never slide into second on any batted ball that goes anywhere?

Right, the announcer said this was "by design", so its obviously something the Cards have talked about, and I'm sure the first base coach reminded him.

But once the concept is there in the Cardinals' thinking, isn't it as simple as him knowing to never slide into second on any batted ball that goes anywhere?

Well, the situation has to be right -- runner on third, and two out. And it has to be a play where you're out if you slide, but possibly safe if you don't. If you can beat the play sliding, go ahead, because if you run through you're eventually going to be tagged out.

I'm sure as soon as the ball was hit to the shortstop, Gorman was thinking about going in standing up.

Before that, even. As the announcer pointed out, that's a play they practice. And the 1B coach reminded him too.

Err, Coke to #29.

Right, the announcer said this was "by design", so its obviously something the Cards have talked about, and I'm sure the first base coach reminded him.

what are you saying here? That you agree w/ 28? That's completely insane. YOu don't overrun the bag if your likely to be safe on a slide.

I'm sure as soon as the ball was hit to the shortstop, Gorman was thinking about going in standing up.

GOrman could have been thinking about this in spring training, it doesnt really change my inquiry:

At some pt. on his way to second, he has to DECIDE whether to slide or run through the bag.

Its not an automatic: RUN THROUGH THE BAG. Thats wrong. He has to make a split second decision on whether he can make it or not.

Im suggesting he has to decide at perhaps when he's 20 feet from the bag, and he's gonna slide at say ten feet so if he's running 25 ft/second then...

Or do folks not see it that way?

I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I'm sure as soon as the ball was hit to the shortstop, Gorman was thinking about going in standing up.

Tom. It's not an automatic decision. Unless Im not understanding the play and as I said this is the first time Ive even heard of it. But the runner has a split second, or so it seems.

what are you saying here? That you agree w/ 28? That's completely insane. YOu don't overrun the bag if your likely to be safe on a slide.

I'm not suggesting you always overrun the bag, I'm suggesting that you never slide into second on a batted ball when you are at first with the bases loaded an 2 outs. But it's only a suggestion, and I might be overlooking something.

Nobody wants to talk about that terrible rundown? The 2B makes a weird, desperate-looking jump throw kinda thing to home even though the runner isn't far off third; the C's throw to third is quite late; third executes just fine but then whoever took the throw at second decides to make another throw home on the run. When I was a kid, rundowns were pretty much the most boring thing ever, these days it seems like nobody even works on it in spring (except the Cardinals I'm sure cuz they do everything right those bastards).

33. This is likely a coaching call. 1B coach probably said "remember your training, if a ball is hit where they try a force, run through it". It wasn't a split second decision.

Interestingly an identical play happened in the next Goldschmidt at bat and the runner did not do it

It's certainly possible the Cardinals simply tell all baserunners to run through the bag in that situation, given the small likelihood of being safe anyway.

33. This is likely a coaching call. 1B coach probably said "remember your training, if a ball is hit where they try a force, run through it". It wasn't a split second decision.

More like, "remember if it's going to be extremely close, run through it." It only makes sense when you're out if you slide but possibly safe if you run through. So in that sense it IS a split-second decision, but one you're prepared in advance to make.

Was it more absolutely confused or amazingly distracted?

I think the decision was probably heavily influenced by it being a close game against the Pirates. The odds of the Pirates freezing are way high.

EDIT: on second thought if he runs through the bag automatic and beats the throw the run should almost certainly score. So maybe it is automatic.

It was an ordinary grounder to the shortstop not far from the second base bag. Sliding baserunners are almost never safe on plays like that. There was no reason for Gorman to think he could beat it out if he slid.

Im thinking of the world series, wasnt there a game where Mike Andrews or someone was supposed to get caught in a run down in that situation? BUt they didnt do it and Dick WIlliams got all pissed off. But then it turned out he wasn't in spring training with them so he didnt know the play?

I was thinking Andrews but that was a different situation (two errors and a forced affidavit). I am almost sure there was something like that with the As.

I'm not suggesting you always overrun the bag, I'm suggesting that you never slide into second on a batted ball when you are at first with the bases loaded an 2 outs. But it's only a suggestion, and I might be overlooking something.

I think you're right Nate. If youre likely out then just overrun and maybe you beat it and the run scores. It may be more automatic then Im making it out to be.

and agree with Tom.

Nobody wants to talk about that terrible rundown? The 2B makes a weird, desperate-looking jump throw kinda thing to home even though the runner isn't far off third; the C's throw to third is quite late; third executes just fine but then whoever took the throw at second decides to make another throw home on the run. When I was a kid, rundowns were pretty much the most boring thing ever, these days it seems like nobody even works on it in spring (except the Cardinals I'm sure cuz they do everything right those bastards).

I don't think the rundown was that bad. The 2B is going after the player who is in the middle of the baseline, when the lead runner breaks for home he's the guy they worry about so he makes the admittedly awkward looking but smart and accurate throw home. For all the running around the Pirates really played it pretty well I thought, there was never a moment of particularly high jeopardy for them.

My 10 year old travel kids love rundowns. We work on them a lot, in no small part because they pop up more often in 10 year old games than in MLB. One thing we do before a lot of games is a drill where the kids run halfway to a base with the ball then make the throw and peel off. Basically it's executing a rundown without runners. It looks a little goofy when we do it but our guys are really good at getting outs in those spots which is not an automatic at that level.

And I'll say I think if Gorman goes in hard and slides he's going to be safe there.

My 10 year old travel kids love rundowns. We work on them a lot, in no small part because they pop up more often in 10 year old games than in MLB. One thing we do before a lot of games is a drill where the kids run halfway to a base with the ball then make the throw and peel off. Basically it's executing a rundown without runners. It looks a little goofy when we do it but our guys are really good at getting outs in those spots which is not an automatic at that level.

I got in 2 rundowns on the same play in softball a few weeks ago. It was fun. I was at second and drifted off too far on a grounder to third. The fielder threw to second instead of trying to get the batter so I was in rundown #1, I broke for third and the throw pulled the fielder back off the base and so naturally I never stopped and continued towards home and got into rundown #2. They threw home and the catcher conservatively chased me back to third rather than make a throw.

The key wasn't only that there was a runner on third base but there was a Cardinals player on second too. The Pirates first baseman must have been playing behind Gorman because there's no way in hell that Gorman, who isn't quite the second coming of Vince Coleman, scampers to second base that quickly unless he had a running lead on the pitch.

The key wasn't only that there was a runner on third base but there was a Cardinals player on second too. The Pirates first baseman must have been playing behind Gorman because there's no way in hell that Gorman, who isn't quite the second coming of Vince Coleman, scampers to second base that quickly unless he had a running lead on the pitch.

That's probably true. Good point.

But that also should be a sign to the SS to just take the out at first base.

I don't think the rundown was that bad.

We'll have to disagree on that. Obviously nobody threw it away, everybody threw to the right base, etc. so it wasn't Little League. It starts out fine with the 2B chasing the runner towards third. But the throw home is both more awkward/dangerous than it needs to be and too soon, allowing the runner a relatively safe return to 3B. The C runs towards third for a bit then throws too late. The catcher's running and the throw to third gives Gorman more time to return to second. Now he was still far away from it so no real harm done but, at best, the Pirates are still where they were when the rundown started. Throw to second is fine (although the 2B cover is on the bag, not a bit in front of it which is a minor no-no), then another throw home on the run that didn't need to be a throw on the run. Possibly the C is a bit farther up the line than he should be but maybe not so I won't deduct points there.

Now a couple of things ... I'm not sure who's covering 2B the second time. If it's the 1B, then he has a long way to come so maybe he didn't have time to get a couple of steps towards third. But the SS was close to 2B when it began so I assume that's him and he should be better positioned (but is probably more used to throwing on the run). And of course it was the SS's earlier decision-making and lazy toss that got the Pirates here to begin with, I'm not sure I trust him to do anything right. :-) (Is it the same guy with 3 throwing errors the other day?)

And similarly for the C -- even if he wasn't in the ideal position (not sure), given he ran up the line earlier, I don't know if he could have gotten better positioned so no worries. And if the P was off wherever and the 1B was lining up as 2B cover such that nobody was even available to cover home, I'll cut him some slack on that late throw to 3B too. You also get things like whether 3B was giving him a good target for the throw, was the runner in the way, etc. (OK, checked the video again, after some early confusion, the pitcher positioned himself to cover home as he likely should.)

Meanwhile the Royals came this close to dropping two pop fouls in one inning. (Must be windy in SF today)

I think the decision was probably heavily influenced by it being a close game against the Pirates. The odds of the Pirates freezing are way high.

What's in the water in Pennsylvania?

I don't think the rundown was that bad. The 2B is going after the player who is in the middle of the baseline, when the lead runner breaks for
home he's the guy they worry about so he makes the admittedly awkward looking but smart and accurate throw home.

The bases were loaded. The runner on third was running as soon as the batter hit the ball.

That runner had already scored. The new lead runner started at second.

#52 that is a true team effort right there. So nice that nobody has to go home feeling like they're the ones who blew it. A veritable herd of goats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/eifzuk/brendan_ryan_infield_triple/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

My favorite baserunning play.

My favorite baserunning play.

That's similar to when this runner scored from first on a groundout to short, made better by just who the baserunner was.

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/eifzuk/brendan_ryan_infield_triple/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

My favorite baserunning play.

Thanks. I never saw that before. The capper is the subtle glance Ryan gives towards home plate when he gets to third, just in case.

I think so too. It helps that the umpire always seems to call the guy out in that situation, even plays that look to me like the guy might have beaten the throw.

Serious props to the umpire for getting the safe call at 2nd correctly, it was pretty damn close and probably not something he would have been expecting.

(On first view I thought the throw beat him so was very confused why the play went on.)

I have to agree with Walt, as a Cardinal fan, watching the play live, I was honestly thinking that the run down was at the very minimum going to result in another bases loaded situation, but more likely at least one more run scoring and leaving the Cardinals with runners on second and third. I honestly believe if the Cardinals forced another throw from the Pirates, they were going to blow it. They are just not a good fundamentally sound defensive baseball team. Teams need to exploit that. Nothing in that run down looked proper, that throw to the plate nearly guaranteed all runners would return to their bases safely. If anything, the runner at second should be faulted for not just returning to second on that throw. The next level of expert is to make that play and then expertly remove options from the run down team. Imagine if after running pass second base and forcing the dumb throw, Gorman just quietly returned to the bag, the throw to the plate was bad enough that they weren't going to catch the runner at third.

There is a real possibility that the Cardinals could have had the exact situation bases loaded 2 outs.

That runner had already scored. The new lead runner started at second.

Sooo...2 runners were able to cross the plate before Goldschmidt reached 1B? I find that hard to believe.

This is the team that Javy Baez hypnotized earlier this year.

Sooo...2 runners were able to cross the plate before Goldschmidt reached 1B? I find that hard to believe.

No, the runner from second was thrown out at home plate in the rundown.

Ah.

Bad decision by the shortstop to toss to 2B. It was pretty obviously going to be close at second. His momentum was carrying him toward first and the play at first was not going to be close.

Bad decision by the shortstop to toss to 2B. It was pretty obviously going to be close at second. His momentum was carrying him toward first and the play at first was not going to be close.

Yep, and that is perfectly the situation to exploit. Basically Gorman was coached that if the play is going to be close, run through the bag and see what happens. One run is better than surrendering an out on a force with a slide. The other team can react and throw the batter out if they think about it, but in the meantime you have avoided the out and gave the team a chance to score. The piss poor rundown by the Pirates after that fact was a bonus and might have resulted in an extra run. (it didn't, but became a possibility, the more throws in a rundown, the more likely a mistake will be made. If anything, I wish Goldy would have planted himself on first base, as him moving to second limited options for the other runners....it didn't make a difference here, but it could have given the defense an extra option)