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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Wednesday, June 15, 2022Cardinals absolutely confused the Pirates into allowing a run with a brilliant baserunning trick
RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)
Posted: June 15, 2022 at 09:37 AM | 66 comment(s)
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1. The Duke Posted: June 15, 2022 at 10:33 AM (#6081879)He still probably could have, but I think the shock of watching the runner sprint past him is going to typically confuse the fielder (in much the same way Javy's backtracking last year against these same Pirates confused the first baseman) and take that out of the equation.
But yes, for sure, it would have been an easy out if he had just thrown to first.
You can run over the catcher if he's blocking the plate. The runner here was obviously given a full lane to the bag. So no, he wouldn't have been allowed to truck him.
To be fair, recent versions of the Pirates have certainly been very offensive, so maybe that's why.
The SS decision to flip to 2B was the critical error here, as mentioned above.
For fun, let's assume the runner slides safely into second base instead. Does the 2B have time to turn and throw to first to get that out? Does he have the awareness to do so? Based on the velocity of the groundball and the angles, I don't think they get the out at first (or even make the throw).
That said, the baserunning trick makes these questions moot so kudos to the Cards on that.
What do you mean by that? Did the fielder just throw on to first instead, did they just beat the rnner to second or did they throw on to first after failing at second and get the out there?
I think so too. It helps that the umpire always seems to call the guy out in that situation, even plays that look to me like the guy might have beaten the throw.
Either they still beat the baserunner to the bag or they just threw to first.
I guess I should say I don't think the intent is to trick the fielder, but that's what happened here.
The rundown isn't really necessary. As long as you beat the throw, and the middle infielder isn't able/doesn't try to get the batter at first, the guy who was on the third is going to score. You're likely to be tagged out before anything else happens (or, as was the case here, the guy who was going to third is tagged out), but it's a worthwhile sacrifice to make if you were going to be out at second.
There's a narrow window where the play makes sense (if you were going to be safe by sliding, you're giving away an out), but when the situation presents itself like here it's absolutely worth trying.
this brings up an interesting pt: Exactly how much time did Gorman have to make that decision? Im guessing less than 1/2 second. Honestly I have never heard of this tactic so Im guessing.
Very little. It was really good judgment on his part. I think he's out if he slides. Hell, if the second baseman had been aware and stretched for the throw, he might have been out anyway.
I don't think that's the right way to look at it. I'm sure as soon as the ball was hit to the shortstop, Gorman was thinking about going in standing up.
Well, the situation has to be right -- runner on third, and two out. And it has to be a play where you're out if you slide, but possibly safe if you don't. If you can beat the play sliding, go ahead, because if you run through you're eventually going to be tagged out.
Before that, even. As the announcer pointed out, that's a play they practice. And the 1B coach reminded him too.
Err, Coke to #29.
what are you saying here? That you agree w/ 28? That's completely insane. YOu don't overrun the bag if your likely to be safe on a slide.
GOrman could have been thinking about this in spring training, it doesnt really change my inquiry:
At some pt. on his way to second, he has to DECIDE whether to slide or run through the bag.
Its not an automatic: RUN THROUGH THE BAG. Thats wrong. He has to make a split second decision on whether he can make it or not.
Im suggesting he has to decide at perhaps when he's 20 feet from the bag, and he's gonna slide at say ten feet so if he's running 25 ft/second then...
Or do folks not see it that way?
Tom. It's not an automatic decision. Unless Im not understanding the play and as I said this is the first time Ive even heard of it. But the runner has a split second, or so it seems.
Interestingly an identical play happened in the next Goldschmidt at bat and the runner did not do it
More like, "remember if it's going to be extremely close, run through it." It only makes sense when you're out if you slide but possibly safe if you run through. So in that sense it IS a split-second decision, but one you're prepared in advance to make.
I was thinking Andrews but that was a different situation (two errors and a forced affidavit). I am almost sure there was something like that with the As.
I think you're right Nate. If youre likely out then just overrun and maybe you beat it and the run scores. It may be more automatic then Im making it out to be.
and agree with Tom.
I don't think the rundown was that bad. The 2B is going after the player who is in the middle of the baseline, when the lead runner breaks for home he's the guy they worry about so he makes the admittedly awkward looking but smart and accurate throw home. For all the running around the Pirates really played it pretty well I thought, there was never a moment of particularly high jeopardy for them.
My 10 year old travel kids love rundowns. We work on them a lot, in no small part because they pop up more often in 10 year old games than in MLB. One thing we do before a lot of games is a drill where the kids run halfway to a base with the ball then make the throw and peel off. Basically it's executing a rundown without runners. It looks a little goofy when we do it but our guys are really good at getting outs in those spots which is not an automatic at that level.
That's probably true. Good point.
But that also should be a sign to the SS to just take the out at first base.
We'll have to disagree on that. Obviously nobody threw it away, everybody threw to the right base, etc. so it wasn't Little League. It starts out fine with the 2B chasing the runner towards third. But the throw home is both more awkward/dangerous than it needs to be and too soon, allowing the runner a relatively safe return to 3B. The C runs towards third for a bit then throws too late. The catcher's running and the throw to third gives Gorman more time to return to second. Now he was still far away from it so no real harm done but, at best, the Pirates are still where they were when the rundown started. Throw to second is fine (although the 2B cover is on the bag, not a bit in front of it which is a minor no-no), then another throw home on the run that didn't need to be a throw on the run. Possibly the C is a bit farther up the line than he should be but maybe not so I won't deduct points there.
Now a couple of things ... I'm not sure who's covering 2B the second time. If it's the 1B, then he has a long way to come so maybe he didn't have time to get a couple of steps towards third. But the SS was close to 2B when it began so I assume that's him and he should be better positioned (but is probably more used to throwing on the run). And of course it was the SS's earlier decision-making and lazy toss that got the Pirates here to begin with, I'm not sure I trust him to do anything right. :-) (Is it the same guy with 3 throwing errors the other day?)
And similarly for the C -- even if he wasn't in the ideal position (not sure), given he ran up the line earlier, I don't know if he could have gotten better positioned so no worries. And if the P was off wherever and the 1B was lining up as 2B cover such that nobody was even available to cover home, I'll cut him some slack on that late throw to 3B too. You also get things like whether 3B was giving him a good target for the throw, was the runner in the way, etc. (OK, checked the video again, after some early confusion, the pitcher positioned himself to cover home as he likely should.)
What's in the water in Pennsylvania?
The bases were loaded. The runner on third was running as soon as the batter hit the ball.
My favorite baserunning play.
That's similar to when this runner scored from first on a groundout to short, made better by just who the baserunner was.
(On first view I thought the throw beat him so was very confused why the play went on.)
There is a real possibility that the Cardinals could have had the exact situation bases loaded 2 outs.
Sooo...2 runners were able to cross the plate before Goldschmidt reached 1B? I find that hard to believe.
No, the runner from second was thrown out at home plate in the rundown.
Yep, and that is perfectly the situation to exploit. Basically Gorman was coached that if the play is going to be close, run through the bag and see what happens. One run is better than surrendering an out on a force with a slide. The other team can react and throw the batter out if they think about it, but in the meantime you have avoided the out and gave the team a chance to score. The piss poor rundown by the Pirates after that fact was a bonus and might have resulted in an extra run. (it didn't, but became a possibility, the more throws in a rundown, the more likely a mistake will be made. If anything, I wish Goldy would have planted himself on first base, as him moving to second limited options for the other runners....it didn't make a difference here, but it could have given the defense an extra option)
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