It's still very early, but that five round Cardinals 2020 draft may be one of the best in recent memory. Walker, Alec Burleson (who also made the team), plus Masyn Winn and Tink Hence, both of whom are top 100 prospects.

He was remeasured in spring training at 6'6" and 250. Credit to Lounge poster for this update

It's still very early, but that five round Cardinals 2020 draft may be one of the best in recent memory. Walker, Alec Burleson (who also made the team), plus Masyn Winn and Tink Hence, both of whom are top 100 prospects.

Yea, I'm thinking this might be one of the best drafts in history, heck Winn would probably make the opening roster based upon his spring performance for about 15+ teams in baseball, the Cardinals just happened to have Edman/Gorman/Donovan blocking him right now.

As a Cardinal fan, I'm happy with the next few years, I feel a bit bad for DeJong who more or less has to be jettisoned during the season regardless of contract and performance... Donovan kinda ###### him over by being this good.

He was remeasured in spring training at 6'6" and 250.

Judge is listed at 6-7, 282.

Walker is merely a Stanton-esque figure (he's 6-6 and 245).

As good as Walker is, I'm thinking Winn will be the best of that class. He's already an above average MLB SS from what I have seen, and he brought a big bat to camp this year which answered some questions about his offense. If they didn't have a pile of people ahead of him, he'd be breaking camp as starting SS.

He'll push Edman to 2B by the ASG imo. Then the Cardinals have issues finding time for Donovan and Gorman who would be legit starters on 20 other teams.

I swear at some point I'll find a Cardinal I get excited about!
Walker is one.

but Gorman? low AVG median-hitting platoon 2B. not exactly a "black swan," as they call them. he is young, though, so room to grow.

Donovan actually was impressive last year and the cyber-stats are ok with him, but this feels like to me a possible one-hit wonder.

but I could be wrong.

wait, Goldschmidt and Arenado and Helsley are REALLY good, so there.

but Gorman? low AVG median-hitting platoon 2B. not exactly a "black swan," as they call them. he is young, though, so room to grow.

Donovan actually was impressive last year and the cyber-stats are ok with him, but this feels like to me a possible one-hit wonder.

Gorman is actually an elite power hitting bat, playing middle infield, he actually could be something impressive. Donovan is boring but actually more likely to produce going forward because his tools translate since he doesn't have the weakness's of Gorman.. The upside difference between Gorman and Donovan is massive in favor of Gorman... the certainty between them is on Donovan, which is impressive since he was never really a prospect going through the system, but just did the job.

To think Gorman is just median in any sense of the word is a serious misjudgment. He was, and is widely considered one of the more elite power hitters in the game relative to his age.

As good as Walker is, I'm thinking Winn will be the best of that class. He's already an above average MLB SS from what I have seen, and he brought a big bat to camp this year which answered some questions about his offense. If they didn't have a pile of people ahead of him, he'd be breaking camp as starting SS.

Fully agree, the issue is that Edman was a 6 war player last year, top 10 in the NL, we are talking about the guy who last year WAS the best shortstop in baseball.(at least over a full season, in reality and projections he's probably about 5th best going forward.... I'll give it to Turner, Correa, Bogearts ahead of him...Seagar, Lindor.. you have to ignore too much defense to put them ahead, etc... either way, he's an established top five shortstop going forward, that will most definitely change, but how much is a topic of conversation, and unfortunately for Winn, since he isn't on the 40 man, there is no great hurry bringing him up if the other options are producing. )

Winn had a great spring, and the Cardinals would be stupid to not acknowledge that if he maintains it for the first month or so in triple A, but the lineup is already stacked with talent, there is literally not a single position that doesn't have a potential plus player playing, especially in the infield, the only positional weakness the Cardinals have is center, simply because we are not sure the quality of defense we will get at the position, relative to the offense... With Bader we knew we had elite defense even if the bat didn't always show up, with Carlson/O'Neil/Nootbar the quality of defense is absolutely a drop, and we aren't sure any of their bats will show up to make up the difference.

Howie, you misunderstand the point of the Cardinals. They exist not to overpower the competition. They exist to annoy the living #### out of the comptetition through comptency and professionalism and just not sucking at anything. They are the baseball equivalent of who your teachers told you to grow up to be. Nolan Gorman's job isn't to impress anybody, it's to give the Cards 7 WAR over 2.5 years then disappear to be replaced by some 5th-round pick that gives the Cards 7 WAR in 2.5 years. Repeat for infinity. Teams that have "exciting" players are chumps -- all you need are some 5th round picks. Even Yadi was really nothing more than competent and professional, he just managed to do it for 19 years. And if the team hits a rough patch -- don't worry about it, some other team will just give them Lou Brock or George Hendrick or Mark McGwire or Jim Edmonds or Matt Holliday or Nolan Arenado for nothing.

maybe I do misunderstand the point of the Cardinals.

they have won two WS titles in the last 40 years - as have the Mets, Marlins, Royals, Twins, Dodgers, Blue Jays, Braves, Astros, Red Sox, Yankees, and Giants (some more than 2).

maybe it has more than a little to do with "They exist to annoy the living #### out of the comptetition through competency and professionalism and just not sucking at anything. They are the baseball equivalent of who your teachers told you to grow up to be. Nolan Gorman's job isn't to impress anybody, it's to give the Cards 7 WAR over 2.5 years then disappear to be replaced by some 5th-round pick that gives the Cards 7 WAR in 2.5 years. Repeat for infinity."

they always, always have a winning record - but they have won more than 95 games only six times in the last 4 decades.

of course, that win total doesn't guarantee you success in the playoffs - but don't counter with "hey, it's a 100% crapshoot, so just get in the postseason and maybe things work out."
that's an overreach imo. feels like they always have a team that is just "good enough."

Goldschmidt and Arenado strike me as the definition of "exciting players."
maybe they just need one more?

I think gorman could be super at the plate. His real position is 3B so they need to move Arenado along somehow. Gormans only issue is that he struggled with......the fastball. You don't see that very often especially with someone who has ++ batspeed. His issue is a massive high leverage uppercut swing. He just needs to flatten out his swing and he'll pound balls all over - he appears to have already corrected for that this spring. He's still only 22-23. I see a Jim thome -lite profile for him. I think he could hit 40 HRs a year for a long time. Instead of a .275 avg it might be .250 and he won't walk as much.

maybe I do misunderstand the point of the Cardinals.

Not sure why you have decided to be an a-hole all the sudden, but if it works for you, way to go. I mean like every thread that has involved Cardinals in the last week or two, you've gone out of your way to be a complete dick. I mean I guess you might be prepping yourself for the fact that the Mess are going to finish in third place?

Not sure why you have decided to be an a-hole all the sudden, but if it works for you, way to go. I mean like every thread that has involved Cardinals in the last week or two, you've gone out of your way to be a complete dick. I mean I guess you might be prepping yourself for the fact that the Mess are going to finish in third place?

um, not sure you exactly elevated the conversation there.

notice the difference in the constructive comment of The Duke, who expands on my point about how while Gorman wasn't dazzling in 2022, but he's still young and there is room for growth. we agree on that. I found it an intriguing counterpoint, actually.

"the fact that the Mess are going to finish in third place?"

so we're back in junior high.

but if it works for you, way to go.

Wow, CFB, that was quite the, uh, reaction.

I mentioned this in Chatter, but Walker played HS ball near me and was certainly fun to follow. Very cool to see that he'll be in MLB this year.

It's true the Cards have won "only" 2 WS in 40 years. They've added another 4 NL pennants and another 9 NLC titles. Over the last 40 years, the Dodgers have only 2 WS title, only 2 additional pennants but another 12 NLW titles. Over the last 40 years, the Giants have 3 WS titles, one additional pennant but just 6 additional NLW titles.

Would the Cards have benefited from having Mike Trout for the last decade? Why, yes, I believe they would have. Excellent insight.

It's true the Cards have won "only" 2 WS in 40 years. They've added another 4 NL pennants and another 9 NLC titles.

The 40-year cutoff also feels specifically chosen to be as long as possible but still eliminate 1982 from the conversation. Considering the lack of World Series in '94, the Cards actually have 3 of the last 40 WS titles. Alternatively, one could state that they have 2 of the last 20; only the Red Sox, Giants, and Astros can say that.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has pointed out that the original list is wrong; the Mets do not have 2 WS titles in the last 40 years. They haven't won since '86.

Also true that the Cards had the best record in their division in 1981, but missed the playoffs because the work stoppage led to teams with the "best first half record" and "best second half record" competing in the postseason.

FTR, Cards were 5-5 against the eventual World Champions Dodgers that season, then won the Championship trophy (as mentioned above) in 1982.

I feel the one thing keeping the Cardinals from more postseason success is a true bulldog shut-down starting pitcher (or two), which they haven't really had since Chris Carpenter 15 or so years ago, despite nice seasons here and there from guys like Adam Wainwright and Jack Flaherty.

They always go into the postseason leaning on guys like Jeff Suppan and Jaime Garcia, whereas the other side has guys like Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer. I'm not saying the latter will always defeat the former, but going in I'd certainly rather have the latter.

They have (as do most teams) a long list of talented pitchers---Rick Ankiel, Carlos Martinez, Jack Flaherty, to name a few---who briefly flashed No. 1 stuff but ultimately failed to find long-term success.

EDIT: OK, looking back, Wainwright was pretty ace-like from 2009-2014, minus 2011-12 (TJ/so-so comeback season sandwiched between pairs of back-to-back top 3 CYA finishes)). But still, 10-15 years ago.

I feel the one thing keeping the Cardinals from more postseason success is a true bulldog shut-down starting pitcher

In their last four post-season games, covering three seasons, they have scored a grand total of four runs. In 2019, they were swept by the Nats and scored six runs in four games. Probably just a fluke thing - their offense has been pretty good, but they've been shut out three times in their last 10 post-season games.

Also, I'm a bit surprised that nobody has pointed out that the original list is wrong; the Mets do not have 2 WS titles in the last 40 years. They haven't won since '86.

can confirm. hell, I was IN THE STANDS when they won Game 7 at Shea Stadium.
was conflating the 2015 NL pennant (more recent than the Yankees' last one in 2009).

We regret the error and apologize for the inconvenience. Those responsible will be sacked.

As for the Cardinals, obviously they are a very well-run franchise - and are in the conversation as being among the five best, for sure. But as others have implied as well, there's a vibe of "let's just make sure we're good enough to have a winning record every year."

which, well, half the teams don't even do in a given year. it's something.

but they do remind me of this modern incarnation of the Yankees - "good is good enough."

and are in the conversation as being among the five best, for sure.

Are you sure you want to go out on a limb like that?

well, the Dodgers Yankees Astros Braves are already in that conversation - so adding the Cardinals in "for sure" among the 5 best is not exactly an insult. I'd have to do some research as to who else exactly belongs there. maybe I'm not out enough on a limb?

well, the Dodgers Yankees Astros Braves are already in that conversation - so adding the Cardinals in "for sure" among the 5 best is not exactly an insult. I'd have to do some research as to who else exactly belongs there. maybe I'm not out enough on a limb?

The Braves wrapped up four successive losing seasons in 2017. The Astros have been good for eight years, but were absolute crap for half a decade before that. The Yankees and Dodgers have some structural advantages you might have noticed.

The Cards have been competitive for four decades, finishing under .500 once since the turn of the century. They are the model franchise in MLB (you know, since most other franchises can't follow the be the top dog in one of the two biggest metropolitan areas in the country model).

Gorman is actually an elite power hitting bat, playing middle infield, he actually could be something impressive.

I wanna dredge this up because even though it's early, this looks pretty prescient. I found it persuasive at the time, I didn't know anything about Gorman before hand, and I've been trying to watch him more often.

His walk rate is up almost 4%, K rate is down more than 7%. His Fangraphs on-contact numbers pretty much track his early production rates (xwOBA of .439 to actual OBA of .442). He's swinging at less pitches outside of the zone. I know it's early, a lot could still change, but I appreciate the call out so I could watch this unfold. Dude's pretty fun to watch at the plate and I would have assumed he was just another anonymous Cards placeholder if not for this thread.