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Friday, December 23, 2011

Carlos Beltran Signs 2-Year Deal With St. Louis Cardinals, According To Report

According to a report from Derrick Gould of the Post-Dispatch, free agent outfielder Carlos Beltran has agreed to terms with the St. Louis Cardinals on a two-year contract. St. Louis emerged as a major contender for Beltran’s services this week, though the club was cautious given the veteran’s recent injury problems.

  The Cardinals and Beltan’s agent, Dan Lozano, were able to finalize a deal Thursday evening. Beltran missed significant playing time in 2009 and 2010 as he recovered from knee surgeries, and the Cardinals wanted to understand more about his health before completing the deal. The Cardinals intensified their pursuit of the switch-hitter this week.

Thanks to Doug.

Repoz Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:14 AM | 80 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals

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   1. The District Attorney Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:22 AM (#4022391)
Looks like $26M.

Good deal for St. Louis. I thought maybe this was the guy the Red Sox were stalking.
   2. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:23 AM (#4022393)
Should make for a nice mix-and-match outfield, depending how often Beltran can be expected to play CF.
   3. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:24 AM (#4022394)
The offseason just keeps getting worse.
   4. McCoy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:25 AM (#4022395)
Ahhhh crap.
   5. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:27 AM (#4022396)
This is the type of signing that almost always seems to work out for the Cardinals.
   6. Guts Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:27 AM (#4022398)
Approve.
   7. Srul Itza Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#4022401)
Should make for a nice mix-and-match outfield, depending how often Beltran can be expected to play CF.


I don't think he can play a decent CF, and the more they try him there, the more time he is going to miss.

He can still hit, though, and I don't see how he could be worse in the field than Berkman, who I am assuming is moving to first. So the outfield is Holliday and Beltran at the corners, and ??? in CF?
   8. The District Attorney Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:32 AM (#4022402)
I guess stick Craig out there. Why not, their defense was pretty miserable last year and they still won the World Series.
   9. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:34 AM (#4022403)
This is the type of signing that almost always seems to work out for the Cardinals.

Is there a type of signing that doesn't almost always work out for the Cardinals? Everyone from Todd Wellemeyer to John Smoltz to Troy Glaus to Julio Lugo seems to remember a few skills that he'd long forgot as soon as he puts on that uniform.
   10. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:37 AM (#4022408)
#7

Plan is Berkman at 1B, Holliday in LF, and start with Beltran in RF and Jay in CF. Craig should be back about a month into the season and he's a better bet than Jay to fill out the OF, but isn't a CF. Hence, the need for Beltran to play at least some of the time in CF.

The other option is Schumaker, who a lot of Cardinals fans are down on because the 2b experiment was such a bad idea. Schumaker, tho, is a useful hitter against right-handers and, just as important, has a CF arm. Jay's weak arm, I thought, was exposed in the postseason.
   11. Sam M. Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:38 AM (#4022409)
If baseball chick were still an Astros fan, this would make for an epic tirade: the Cardinals linking up with Carlos the Jackal? Come on, Lisa. You can't NOT react to this . . . .
   12. Zonk Will Be Reinstated in August Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:40 AM (#4022411)
Is there a type of signing that doesn't almost always work out for the Cardinals?


Maybe the LAAAAA ones?
   13. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:49 AM (#4022418)
So Beltran is the first prominent player to join the Cardinals in the post-TLR era. Hopefully he gets off to a better start than the first post-Cox Brave, Dan Uggla.
   14. MattAtBat Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:03 AM (#4022425)
Approved. The Cards have enough outfield depth to get through Beltran's annual one-month DL stint. When Beltran is healthy, that's a nice little lineup.

I think ess eff is right. Beltran is the primary right fielder. Craig gets something like 300 at bats as a corner outfielder, first baseman and interleague DH.

Beltran might fake a few innings in center, like Craig did last season. If Jay misses anything more than a couple games, I'd expect to see Schumaker out there or Erik Komatsu/Adron Chambers called up.
   15. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:07 AM (#4022428)
Komatsu is Rule 5 -- has to stick or be offered back.
   16. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:10 AM (#4022430)
Saw the headline, first thing I said was hell yes. Didn't know the terms, but there is absolutely no way that a two year deal is a bad thing(at the time of the signing that is...of course circumstances could make it a horrible deal, but as a general rule, it's nearly impossible to have a perceived bad/crippling two year deal)
   17. puck Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:14 AM (#4022432)
Cuddyer for 3/31.5 or Beltran for 2/26...(cries...)
   18. Darren Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:14 AM (#4022434)
Agree with #5--this is a classic St. Louis move. As soon as Pujols left I was sure he'd be the guy they'd get. Now he can go all Edmonds on the league.
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:20 AM (#4022437)
I don't think he can play a decent CF, and the more they try him there, the more time he is going to miss.

He can still hit, though, and I don't see how he could be worse in the field than Berkman, who I am assuming is moving to first. So the outfield is Holliday and Beltran at the corners, and ??? in CF?


Beltran will probably get 20 or so starts in centerfield, Jay is the perceived starter, but he is not an everday player. Craig is going to get screwed in this deal, unless he can earn a job at second base(and if he does, the Cardinals offense could be one of the best in a very long time)
   20. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:26 AM (#4022439)
Approved. The Cards have enough outfield depth to get through Beltran's annual one-month DL stint. When Beltran is healthy, that's a nice little lineup.


Which Beltran are you talking about.

2011 142 games
2010 54
2009 81
2008 161
2007 144
2006 140
2005 144

closer to 2 weeks than one month. Including 2010, and 2009. Beltran is 6th in games played among players with 50% of their games at centerfield since 2005. Centerfield is not a position that has healthy players all year long.(Andruw Jones was a freak when he was younger)
   21. Shibal Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:31 AM (#4022442)
Beltran is 6th in games played among players with 50% of their games at centerfield since 2005.


That's a goofy stat. Where does he rank in games played among players with 50% of their games in centerfield since 2009?
   22. Dan from NM Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:41 AM (#4022447)
As a Giants fan, this is exactly the kind of deal I was hoping he'd sign -- with San Francisco. In any case, for Cardinals fans, I think you might be disappointed in his defense if you're expecting much time from him in center field. But he hits enough to make this well worth it.
   23. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:43 AM (#4022448)
Playing Baseball Mogul, I would make a pretty fun lineup out of this:

1. Furcal - SS
2. Berkman - 1B
3. Holliday - LF
4. Beltran - RF
5. Craig - 2B
6. Freese - 3B
7. Molina - C
8. Jay - CF

And then I would curse every three days when the sim stopped because someone got hurt.
   24. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:45 AM (#4022449)
That's a goofy stat. Where does he rank in games played among players with 50% of their games in centerfield since 2009?


Considering he didn't play centerfield last year, he isn't going to even come up on the list. My point is that he's not an injury problem, he's had a major injury that affected him the previous two seasons. He played 142 games last year, outside of those two seasons(2010 and 2009) he has played in more than 140 games every season since 2000. He's not a Larry Walker or a Barry Larkin type of player. Centerfielders traditionally miss a week or two of games, it's the nature of the position, but he doesn't miss a month "annually"
   25. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:47 AM (#4022450)
As a Giants fan, this is exactly the kind of deal I was hoping he'd sign -- with San Francisco. In any case, for Cardinals fans, I think you might be disappointed in his defense if you're expecting much time from him in center field. But he hits enough to make this well worth it.


Cardinals don't care about defense the last couple of years. Outside of Pujols and Molina and Brendan Ryan, the rest of the team was basically Greg Luzinski out there. Holliday is only considered to be average defensively, because the standards at his position has diminished.
   26. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:49 AM (#4022451)
Although if I was really playing, I'd probably shift Beltran to CF, Berkman to RF and play Matt Adams/quad-A first baseman roulette.

Also, I need to change my handle.
   27. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:57 AM (#4022453)
Matt Adams/quad-A first baseman roulette.


Shouldn't Adams play in AAA before he's considered AAAA?
   28. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:00 AM (#4022454)
Yeah. Was trying to say I would play roulette with Matt Adams and whatever AAAA riff-raff I could trade Skip Schumaker for.
   29. MattAtBat Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:02 AM (#4022455)
@ess eff Thanks for the correction on Komatsu. I guess the plan is for him to compete for the 5th outfielder spot.

@cardsfanboy The one that averaged 124 games per season over the 7 years you listed :P The "month" was a throwaway line. My point was more that the Cardinals can't expect him to play a full season. Beltran isn't getting any younger. He doesn't have a clean medical history. The move from center probably helps, but he missed 20 games last season when he didn't play center.
   30. Adam Starblind Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:28 AM (#4022462)
but he missed 20 games last season when he didn't play center.


If I'm remembering correctly, he was rested frequently (outside of a stretch in the second quarter of the season where we Mets fans were thinking of kidnapping Collins for playing him every day). What I am trying to say is that he was never injured in 2011; he just sat for a bunch of scattered games.
   31. MattAtBat Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:32 AM (#4022463)
Beltran missed 2 weeks in the middle of last August. I can't remember why, but it nearly killed my fantasy team.

Edit: wrist injury
   32. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:34 AM (#4022464)
Was trying to say I would play roulette with Matt Adams and whatever AAAA riff-raff I could trade Skip Schumaker for.


Well, with the likes of Holliday, Berkman, Craig and Adams, they'll need guys like Schumaker (when he's in the OF) and Descalso to make a defensive play now and again.
   33. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:40 AM (#4022468)
He had to have gotten better offers, right? Seems like the Cards always seem to get guys to sign for less than market value.

Oh yea, except that one time.
   34. Pujols Shot Ya Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:43 AM (#4022471)
Well, with the likes of Holliday, Berkman, Craig and Adams, they'll need guys like Schumaker (when he's in the OF) and Descalso to make a defensive play now and again.


Yes, the real life Cardinals most definitely will. But in my Baseball Mogul world, sucking and making 1.5 million gets you a ticket to the double-A squad of whatever team will take you.
   35. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:48 AM (#4022472)
Thanks for the early Christmas present, Mo. Just what I wanted.
   36. greenback used to say live and let live Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:21 AM (#4022494)
I guess the Cardinals will have to sign Nelson Cruz in about five years.
   37. Shibal Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:42 AM (#4022498)
I'd be too worried about Beltran's health to pay him $13 million per year.
   38. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:46 AM (#4022501)
EDIT: Never mind. Just got the reference in #36.
   39. Walt Davis Posted: December 23, 2011 at 06:04 AM (#4022506)
Well, he's no David DeJesus that's for sure!
   40. PreservedFish Posted: December 23, 2011 at 06:05 AM (#4022507)
My point is that he's not an injury problem, he's had a major injury that affected him the previous two seasons.


I understand the distinction that you're trying to make, but I don't think it's worth making. Beltran had his 2005 ruined by nagging leg injuries, and then lost almost 200 games to leg injuries. He looked gimpy as all hell last year, even when he was hitting the snot out of the ball. You have to consider him an injury risk.
   41. base ball chick Posted: December 23, 2011 at 06:57 AM (#4022508)
Sam M. Posted: December 22, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#4022409)

If baseball chick were still an Astros fan, this would make for an epic tirade: the Cardinals linking up with Carlos the Jackal? Come on, Lisa. You can't NOT react to this . .
. .

- well sam,

i'm kind of surprised the giants didn't sign him.

but you know, lance berkman gave an interview - on the record - last year in which he said that beltran had told him that he really wanted to stay in houston and that drayton mclane, not the GM, had handled, or, should i say, MIShandled the negotiations and hadn't offered any sort of contract, let alone a NTC until after beltran had already signed with the mets.

if that had come from anyone else, i would have been more than a little sceptical. but it DOES should like draytie-poo. i was a lot less willing to believe it until i saw how he ran the good team that gerry hunsicker had built up into the ground in 2 short years.

i'm beginning to wonder if it was scott boras who wrote "my first year in pinstripes"...

anyway, i'm still an astros fan this year. i'm gonna have a tough time saying goodbye to wandy this winter, but i'm gonna replace him with jose altuve, who is barely biggern me. my kind of guy...
   42. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 23, 2011 at 07:01 AM (#4022509)
It's unbelievable that the Braves aren't in on any of these outfielders. They should have been all over this. There are high school age Braves fans who have never seen the team have a real left fielder. Somebody put a mirror under Wren's nose to make sure he's still breathing.
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 07:31 AM (#4022512)
Oh yea, except that one time.


Too soon.... :)

29. MattAtBat
I understand, but when I see a comment like off once a month a year, it's more negative than it needs to be. Beltran had a well documented injury, he's not a JD Drew type of player who takes off frequently within a season for various ailments like hitting your head on a nail(not kidding)

Of course with anyone over 32 years old, you can't expect 150 games, the players who do that are rare and unusual. But there is no reason that Beltran shouldn't be good for 140 games a season, and with the Cardinals depth, that is more than good enough.

edit: just did a pi search. Players over 33 years old who have had 150 games played in a season and how often since 1901
Rk Yrs Age

1 Pete Rose 9 33-42
2 Rafael Palmeiro 7 33-39
3 Eddie Murray 6 33-40
4 Omar Vizquel 5 33-39
5 Craig Biggio 5 33-39
6 Steve Finley 5 33-39
7 Dave Winfield 5 33-40
8 Dave Parker 5 33-39
9 Brooks Robinson 5 33-37
10 Ernie Banks 5 33-38
11 Ichiro Suzuki 4 33-37
12 Derek Jeter 4 33-36
13 Bobby Abreu 4 33-36
14 Raul Ibanez 4 33-38
15 Luis Gonzalez 4 33-38
16 Jeff Bagwell 4 33-36
17 Dante Bichette 4 33-36
18 Paul Molitor 4 34-39
19 Brett Butler 4 33-36
20 Brian Downing 4 33-36
21 Mike Schmidt 4 33-36
22 Steve Garvey 4 33-37
23 Darrell Evans 4 33-40
24 Billy Williams 4 33-37
25 Mickey Vernon 4 34-37
Rk Yrs Age
26 Sam Rice 4 34-39
27 Honus Wagner 4 34-41
28 Carlos Lee 3 33-35
29 Miguel Tejada 3 34-36
30 Brian Giles 3 33-35
31 Gary Sheffield 3 34-36
32 Jeromy Burnitz 3 33-36
33 Todd Zeile 3 33-35
34 Mark McGwire 3 33-35
35 Fred McGriff 3 33-36
36 Edgar Martinez 3 34-37
37 Mark Grace 3 33-35
38 Cal Ripken 3 35-37
39 Paul ONeill 3 33-36
40 Andres Galarraga 3 35-37
41 Joe Carter 3 33-37
42 Tony Phillips 3 33-37
43 Robin Yount 3 33-36
44 Dale Murphy 3 33-35
45 Ozzie Smith 3 33-36
46 Frank White 3 35-37
47 Dwight Evans 3 33-35
48 Bill Buckner 3 33-36
49 Jose Cruz 3 34-36
50 Ken Singleton 3 33-36
Rk Yrs Age
51 Al Oliver 3 33-36
52 Carl Yastrzemski 3 33-37
53 Lou Brock 3 33-35
54 Hank Aaron 3 33-36
55 Willie Mays 3 33-35
56 Dick Groat 3 33-35
57 Stan Musial 3 33-35
58 Joe Kuhel 3 34-37
59 Doc Cramer 3 34-36
60 Luke Appling 3 33-36
61 Lou Gehrig 3 33-35
62 Eddie Brown 3 33-35
63 Eddie Collins 3 33-37
64 Sam Crawford 3 33-35

notice the Iron man Ripken with three seasons? it's a rare occurance for a player over 33 years old to post 150 games. Nobody with a lick of reason should expect that to happen.
   44. Srul Itza At Home Posted: December 23, 2011 at 07:47 AM (#4022515)

notice the Iron man Ripken with three seasons?


Ya think maybe the fact that nobody played 150 games in 1994 or 1995 might have had something to do with it?
   45. PreservedFish Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:10 AM (#4022517)
I have no idea what cardsfanboy is arguing. So Beltran isn't susceptible to injuries ... except for when he is. So Beltran isn't a weakling like JD Drew ... but we should expect him to miss 20+ games per year, it's only natural at his age.

* I think that Beltran is a terrific player and he'll do good things for the Cardinals. I'm just amused by the pains to which cardsfanboy is going in order to apply some really light positive spin on the one obvious downside to the signing.
   46. cardsfanboy Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:22 AM (#4022518)
my only point in this is that Beltran is not a historically inujury risk, he's relatively normal. Simple as that. He has the same injury risk any and all 34 year old players have.
   47. PreservedFish Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:37 AM (#4022521)
The guy I saw in rightfield last year looked like he had reached the old man Ellis Burks stage of his career, a massive contrast to the GG quality centerfield he was playing not long ago. But Beltran is a superior athlete and it's possible that he could return to his youthful, graceful ways.
   48. KingKaufman Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:51 AM (#4022522)
Infuriating that the Giants didn't even pretend to be interested in Beltran. They fired the team president who wanted to -- the very horror of it -- spend the massive profits on baseball players, so it was never in doubt that the Giants weren't going to touch Beltran. But when a potentially contending team with that pathetic of an offense doesn't even lift its head to look at an elite hitter on its own roster who eventually goes for 2/26, it's a little hard to swallow, even with the injury risk. If 2/26 is too much for the Giants to risk on a guy like Beltran because of injury concerns, the Giants don't belong in MLB.
   49. Something Other Posted: December 23, 2011 at 10:01 AM (#4022528)
Should make for a nice mix-and-match outfield, depending how often Beltran can be expected to play CF.
He shouldn't be expected to play CF at all. He's now a poor defender in CF, and he was moved to RF not just because he couldn't really handle center any more, but to try to keep him from missing 50 games. He desperately needs not only a manager who will resist the temptation to put him in CF when convenient, but who has the brains to sit him once a week; more when he's particularly achy. Beltran loves to play. He'll play every day if his manager lets him, in which case you'll be lucky if he plays 140 games. It's interesting, in that you can try to get 140 games out of Beltran the easy way--by sitting him regularly--or the hard way--by playing him a lot then hoping he only misses three consecutive weeks. The hard way involves a much bigger risk that he'll miss a couple of months, as he did in 2009 and 2010.
   50. Walt Davis Posted: December 23, 2011 at 10:06 AM (#4022530)
That Beltran attempted only 6 steals last year (and 4 the year before in 64 games) is a pretty clear sign this ain't your mother's Carlos Beltran.
   51. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:27 AM (#4022535)
Beltran needs a manager like Dusty Baker who handles vet players adeptly with respect to balancing playing time and rest. This will be a good test for Matheny as Mike was the classic tough guy. Mike got hit in his d*mn face and was on the field the next day. Will Beltran's obvious passion to play affect Mike's judgement? Will Mike sit Carlos on a Thursday day game right before a 10 game trip?

Along with the bullpen this is the kind of stuff that can in a subtle but powerful way determine whether the manager has the chops for the job.

I wish Carlos well. Fun player to watch.
   52. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:31 PM (#4022556)
He had to have gotten better offers, right? Seems like the Cards always seem to get guys to sign for less than market value.

Oh yea, except that one time.


Kyle Lohse?
   53. MattAtBat Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:50 PM (#4022560)
Kyle Lohse?


Must be Skip Schumaker.
   54. musial6 Posted: December 23, 2011 at 01:54 PM (#4022561)
Once Allen Craig is healthy, Matheny will have a surplus of bats, one would assume Berkman and Beltran will each get regular days off (also factor in Holliday's menstrual cycle).

If Beltran's fielding really has deteriorated as much as people are saying, Craig might be the better platoon partner for Jay in CF.
   55. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:16 PM (#4022575)
also factor in Holliday's menstrual cycle

WTF? Holliday has played > 150 games 4 of the past 6 years.
Also, this kind of sexist crap is neither funny nor original.
   56. musial6 Posted: December 23, 2011 at 02:40 PM (#4022586)
I give him a pass on the appendectomy and the crazy Wrath of Khan ear thing, but the fact is he went missing not once not twice but thrice at critical points in the year.

I appreciate his contributions, and realize the club doesn't even come near the postseason without him - but the guy is soft.
   57. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:13 PM (#4022602)
So when are they signing Biggio and Bagwell too?
   58. Conor Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:35 PM (#4022611)
As a Met fan, I couldn't believe Beltran played as much as he did last year. He played 142 games, and missed 2 weeks not because of the knee, but because of a wrist injury. I don't think there is any question he'll hit when he is healthy. I would think he is much more of an injury risk than the average 35 year old player. He hasn't been an injury prone player over the course of his career, but I am not sure how much longer that knee is going to hold up. He's not the player/athlete he was in the past, and not just in the sense that 34 year old guys aren't the same kind of athletes they were when they were 28.

Still think it is a pretty good risk for the Cards. I didn't realize last year was his career high in OPS+. 2009 and 2011, which were the last 2 years he was anything close to healthy, were #1 and #3 among his best OPS+ seasons, though 2009 was only 81 games. What an incredible player; I really miss watching him patrol CF.
   59. PreservedFish Posted: December 23, 2011 at 03:50 PM (#4022624)
The thing that really struck me about Beltran last year was that he stopped hustling in all non-essential situations. Foul balls, homeruns? He just stood there and watched, as if anchored to the ground. Backing up centerfield? Er ... no. Running out routine grounders? Nah. Now, he's a smart player, so he picks the right times to be lazy, and this didn't have many practical consequences. Hell, it may have had Terry Collins' full approval. But his body is not at all what it was a couple years ago, and Beltran knows it.
   60. billyshears Posted: December 23, 2011 at 04:04 PM (#4022632)
I was kind of hoping Beltran would sign with an AL team that could protect his knees with 50 games at DH. Beltran's bat has a lot of life left in it and I think he has an outside shot at making a run for the HOF with 3 - 5 more productive seasons. It would be a shame if it leg injuries ended his career while he could still hit. But this is the Cardinals, so there is room for optimism.
   61. Tippecanoe Posted: December 23, 2011 at 04:12 PM (#4022639)
I'm guessing that they're hoping for some starts in CF against lefties. The CW last year was that Berkman was toast in Right, but he survived.

Are center fielders really greater injury risks than corner OF guys? Why so -- more base stealing? More collisions with other fielders? Not saying its wrong, but it isn't immediately clear why.


If 2/26 is too much for the Giants to risk on a guy like Beltran because of injury concerns, the Giants don't belong in MLB.


Relegation for the Giants!
   62. Conor Posted: December 23, 2011 at 04:22 PM (#4022642)
Are center fielders really greater injury risks than corner OF guys? Why so -- more base stealing? More collisions with other fielders? Not saying its wrong, but it isn't immediately clear why.


I would think just more ground to cover/more running. At least in Beltran's case, his knee just isn't what it used to be. So anything to limit the amount of running he has to do, the better.
   63. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: December 23, 2011 at 04:26 PM (#4022644)
It's unbelievable that the Braves aren't in on any of these outfielders. They should have been all over this. There are high school age Braves fans who have never seen the team have a real left fielder. Somebody put a mirror under Wren's nose to make sure he's still breathing.


The rumor earlier this week was that Prado and Jurrjens were possible chits for Adam Jones.
   64. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 23, 2011 at 04:29 PM (#4022646)
I was kind of hoping Beltran would sign with an AL team that could protect his knees with 50 games at DH. Beltran's bat has a lot of life left in it and I think he has an outside shot at making a run for the HOF with 3 - 5 more productive seasons. It would be a shame if it leg injuries ended his career while he could still hit. But this is the Cardinals, so there is room for optimism.
Of course, even if he plays brilliantly in his 30s in St Louis, he'd just join Larry Walker, Jim Edmonds, and Scott Rolen as deserving Hall of Famers who are unlikely to get much of a sniff from the Hall.

Rolen, Edmonds, and Beltran are all top-10 talents at their positions (each closer to 10th than 1st, but that's still a no-doubt qualified Hall of Famer), and I'm expecting all of them to be overlooked by the BBWAA.
   65. Karl from NY Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:14 PM (#4022677)
I wish BTF had a search function, so I could find some of my posts from early 2010 or so. Mets fans were falling all over themselves racing to see how fast they could dump the then-injured Beltran and his contract, while I was confidently predicting he'd return as a solid player in 2011 and beyond. This contract should have been with the Mets, if not for the harebrained Wilpons and their MakeMoneyFa$t scheme. But best of luck to him with the Cards, it's impossible to root against the guy, and still an outside chance to install a HOFer wearing a Mets cap.
   66. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:42 PM (#4022691)
The rumor earlier this week was that Prado and Jurrjens were possible chits for Adam Jones.


The Orioles claim they turned down a deal for Prado+Jurrjens+two "prime" pitching prospects in return for Jones.

The Braves claim they called about Adam Jones and were told he wasn't available. Then the Orioles called back and said they'd deal Jones for the aforementioned package, at which point the Braves hung up the phone.

You may believe whichever version you like, but there's a reason the Orioles never moved Brian Roberts for anything useful.
   67. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: December 23, 2011 at 05:43 PM (#4022694)
But best of luck to him with the Cards, it's impossible to root against the guy


Oh, I question this statement somewhat...
   68. musial6 Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:43 PM (#4022794)
Of course, even if he plays brilliantly in his 30s in St Louis, he'd just join Larry Walker, Jim Edmonds, and Scott Rolen as deserving Hall of Famers who are unlikely to get much of a sniff from the Hall.


This inspired me to track the Cardinals on the the B-R career WAR list...(rank, player, WAR, # of seasons, HOF)...

8 Stan Musial 127.8 (22) HOF
8 Rogers Hornsby 127.8 (23) HOF
28 Albert Pujols 88.7 (11)
30 Roger Connor 87.2 (18) HOF
46 Frankie Frisch 74.8 (19) HOF
55 Johnny Mize 70.2 (15) HOF
63 Jesse Burkett 68.0 (16) HOF
64 Jim Edmonds 67.9 (17)
67 Larry Walker 67.3 (17)
77 Scott Rolen 66.2 (16)
82 Ozzie Smith 64.6 (19) HOF
88 Reggie Smith 63.4 (17)
91 Mark McGwire 63.1 (16)
100 Dick Allen 61.2 (15)
102 Keith Hernandez 61 (17)
103 Carlos Beltran 60.8 (14)
120 Ken Boyer 58.4 (15)
124 Will Clark 57.6 (15)
129 Bobby Bonds 57.0 (14)
135 Joe Medwick 55.8 (17) HOF
136 Joe Torre 55.6 (18)
141 Jack Clark 55.0 (18)
146 Enos Slaughter 54.1 (19) HOF
155 Cesar Cedeno 52.2 (17)
161 Lance Berkman 51.2 (13)
168 Ted Simmons 50.4 (21)
197 Orlando Cepeda 46.8 (17) HOF
209 JD Drew 45.9 (14)
261 Andy Van Slyke 41.6 (13)
269 Darrell Porter 40.6 (17)
275 Red Schoendienst 40.4 (19) HOF
283 Roger Maris 39.8 (12)
296 Lou Brock 39.1 (19) HOF
307 Ray Lankford 38.4 (14)
307 Reggie Sanders 38.4 (17)
312 Eddie Stanky 38.1 (11)
314 Gary Gaetti 37.9 (20)
324 Lonnie Smith 37.2 (17)
338 Curt Flood 35.9 (15)
346 Placido Polanco 35.5 (14)
352 Pedro Guerrero 35.1 (15)
   69. musial6 Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:44 PM (#4022796)
(that's just the position players, obviously - and I may have missed an obscure player or two)
   70. O Tempura, O Morays ('Spos) Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:57 PM (#4022799)
65. Karl from NY:

I wish BTF had a search function...


Google with dates on right-hand margin
   71. O Tempura, O Morays ('Spos) Posted: December 23, 2011 at 08:58 PM (#4022801)
Sorry, submitted too soon. You can set the date range using the tool in the right-hand margin.
   72. Adam Starblind Posted: December 23, 2011 at 10:04 PM (#4022816)

WTF? Holliday has played > 150 games 4 of the past 6 years.
Also, this kind of sexist crap is neither funny nor original


We can't laugh about the menstrual cycle anymore??? J.H. Christ!
   73. Sam M. Posted: December 23, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#4022819)
I wish BTF had a search function, so I could find some of my posts from early 2010 or so. Mets fans were falling all over themselves racing to see how fast they could dump the then-injured Beltran and his contract, while I was confidently predicting he'd return as a solid player in 2011 and beyond.


I would make the trade for Zack Wheeler again, and I wouldn't hesitate. This may well be a very nice contract for the Cardinals; time will tell. But Zack Wheeler is either the best or the second-best Mets' prospect, and in this case that is NOT damning with faint praise. he and Matt Harvey are two young, impressive arms that pretty much any organization would be thrilled to have. Giving up the second half of Beltran's 2011 did exactly no harm to the Mets -- they didn't contend without him, and they weren't going to contend with him. They weren't going to resign him any more than they were going to sign Jose Reyes, and they weren't going to collect draft picks when he left, because his contract barred them from offering arbitration. Wheeler may never pan out, but he was absolutely worth the last couple of months of Carlos Beltran's Mets' career. While it wasn't a bad trade for the Giants at the time (who needed a bat badly), I'm sure they wish they had Wheeler back now, knowing how it turned out for them in the pennant race.
   74. esseff Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:00 PM (#4022828)
The thing that really struck me about Beltran last year was that he stopped hustling in all non-essential situations. Foul balls, homeruns? He just stood there and watched, as if anchored to the ground.


So there's one sense in which he really will be able to replace Pujols.
   75. Walt Davis Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#4022842)
If LaRussa was still there, he'd probably move Beltran to 2B.
   76. Something Other Posted: December 23, 2011 at 11:49 PM (#4022844)
Beltran needs a manager like Dusty Baker who handles vet players adeptly with respect to balancing playing time and rest. This will be a good test for Matheny as Mike was the classic tough guy. Mike got hit in his d*mn face and was on the field the next day. Will Beltran's obvious passion to play affect Mike's judgement? Will Mike sit Carlos on a Thursday day game right before a 10 game trip?

Along with the bullpen this is the kind of stuff that can in a subtle but powerful way determine whether the manager has the chops for the job.
Well said. I'm still baffled by Collins's treatment of Beltran. I understand that since they were planning on trading Beltran during the season demonstrating his durability was in the Mets' interest, but 37 of the first 39 games, and 90 of the first 92, for a player with a serious injury history coming back from a very serious procedure?

I wish Carlos well. Fun player to watch.
That he is, and for some reason (underdog? underappreciated? falsely labeled? already reasonably well-qualified) I'm really rooting for him to make the Hall, even though he'll have to be well over the borderline just to get serious consideration, never mind entry.

I'd be too worried about Beltran's health to pay him $13 million per year.
With the usual caveats Beltran, despite not even being able to play a full season's worth of games in 2009 and 2010 combined, still put up 6.1 bWAR in the 145 games he was able to get into. Even if he misses half the Giants games in 2012 and 2013 there's a very good chance, imo, that Beltran will be worth this deal. And, of course, if he can play 130-140 games a season, he might well give the Giants 8 to 10 wins, an excellent return for them.

Beltran is a great, great deal for a team that already has three good OFers but whose OFers either have trouble staying healthy, or have platoon issues, or expecting wives, or whathaveyou. He's a big gamble for a team that's already thin in the OF, but on the right club he's a great part.
   77. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: December 24, 2011 at 12:23 AM (#4022854)
Who cares if Beltran misses half of the Giants games? The Cardinals only play the Giants six or nine times a year.
   78. Elvis Posted: December 24, 2011 at 01:55 AM (#4022889)
Well said. I'm still baffled by Collins's treatment of Beltran. I understand that since they were planning on trading Beltran during the season demonstrating his durability was in the Mets' interest, but 37 of the first 39 games


While he played 37 of the first 39, four of those were PH and hardly games that we should over exaggerate how taxing they were on his knees. Also, Beltran did not play on 4/4, 4/7, 4/12, 4/15, 4/18, 4/25, 5/2, 5/11, 5/14 and 5/17. Add in the four PH appearances and it's clear Beltran had plenty of rest the first six weeks of the season.

Collins did a good job allowing Beltran to build up strength and get acclimated to playing everyday, which he did in the middle of the season before going on the DL for a non-knee injury.
   79. MattAtBat Posted: December 24, 2011 at 03:54 AM (#4022904)
Collins did a good job allowing Beltran to build up strength and get acclimated to playing everyday, which he did in the middle of the season before going on the DL for a non-knee injury.


I tend to agree. If someone told me at the beginning of last season that Beltran was going to play 142 games, I would have said that's optimistic.
   80. Something Other Posted: December 24, 2011 at 03:09 PM (#4022974)
While that's an astute breakdown of the early going, it still begs the question, why was there ANY point in the season in which you'd want send out Beltran as an every day player?. He's not that any more and attempts to make him one, or even look like one, are foolish. As people have noted he looks gimpy, he can't handle CF any longer. By every account he's not even average in RF. That 'he didn't hurt his knee, he went on the DL for a new, improved reason!' is hardly cause to deem the experiment a success. There shouldn't have been an experiment at all.

The Mets did this #### with Moises Alou towards the end of Alou's career. They signed one of the more fragile players in the game during the 2006-2007 offseason and instead of coaxing 120 games out of him in 2007 they got a half season (damn, but Alou could still hit). The Mets got lucky. The Cardinals will need less luck if they exercise more common sense.

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