Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, December 07, 2022

Chaim Bloom’s empty words about Bogaerts are insulting

Of course, the Red Sox will be mediocre with him.

Bogaerts is just the most recent bungling of a superstar’s exit. The Red Sox decided early on to not pay for Lester, Mookie, and Bogearts. Their actions are more credible than their words. The Red Sox ownership, which is the common factor in the mishandling of contract negotiations with top players, has lost all credibility.

Now, I don’t have a problem with a team walking away from a player it feels is overvalued in the market. What I do resent is the ownership lying about their intentions, especially while making multiple GMs scapegoats for those ownership level decisions. It treats the players and fans as idiots.

The shelf life of the Red Sox three :D four championships has expired. At this point, whether they end up resigning Bogearts is irrelevent for me. What I’d rather see is a consistent team-building vision and an honest, transparent expression of what that vision is. (See the Dodgers for an excellent example of how this is all done.)

Super agent Scott Boras put the pressure on the Red Sox Tuesday at MLB’s Winter Meetings, calling them a middling club if his client isn’t manning shortstop. “I think if there’s anybody, I think everyone around them understands the Sox without ‘X’ are so-so,” he said.

jimfurtado Posted: December 07, 2022 at 10:44 AM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: chaim bloom, red sox

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Rough Carrigan Posted: December 07, 2022 at 12:04 PM (#6108512)
It's four recent championships but whatever.
   2. reech Posted: December 07, 2022 at 12:36 PM (#6108516)
Well, you NEED a shortstop. Otherwise, alot of balls get though the infield.
   3. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 07, 2022 at 12:36 PM (#6108517)
It's four recent championships but whatever.


Contrary to popular belief, flags actually only fly for 15 years.
   4. Tin Angel Posted: December 07, 2022 at 12:48 PM (#6108520)
Well, you NEED a shortstop. Otherwise, alot of balls get though the infield.


Do you have some numbers to actually back that up though?
   5. Nasty Nate Posted: December 07, 2022 at 01:30 PM (#6108529)
The Red Sox decided early on to not pay for Lester, Mookie, and Bogearts.
That extension with Bogaerts a few years ago was just to throw us off the scent!
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 07, 2022 at 01:39 PM (#6108534)
Contrary to popular belief, flags actually only fly for 15 years.

In reality, it's probably less. Is anyone deciding to attend or watch a game today base on the team's record 10 years ago? 5?

To the extent past success matters it's b/c it signals current team quality. If a team wins the World Series, and then goes all Marlins on their roster, is anyone going to show up b/c of the flag?
   7. jimfurtado Posted: December 07, 2022 at 02:19 PM (#6108542)
That extension with Bogaerts a few years ago was just to throw us off the scent!

That was a team-friendly contract.

Don't get me wrong, the owners will spend money. They just don't spend it wisely. They are reactionary, not planful.

There is also no loyalty. Win a championshiop, two years later you get the boot. Thie happened to both Cherrington and Dombrowski. It's a very "what have you done for me lately" ownership group. Which is fine but eventually it's not just perception, it's reality.

And the reality is, the team isn't people friendly. It treats employees well until it doesn't need you anymore. That attitude will catch up to you eventually.


   8. jimfurtado Posted: December 07, 2022 at 02:22 PM (#6108545)
And yes, it's four. Brain cramp. :D
   9. Karl from NY Posted: December 07, 2022 at 02:31 PM (#6108551)
Is anyone deciding to attend or watch a game today base on the team's record 10 years ago? 5?


It matters. Today's twentysomething premium ticket buyers are the ones who got into the habit of following the team when it was good during their adolescent years. Not every single person obviously, but it can make a difference of a couple thousand per game.
   10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 07, 2022 at 02:58 PM (#6108563)
‘Heavy discussions’ between Red Sox & Bogaerts have ‘momentum’ is the latest report. Not sure if that’s just window dressing - Boston could have made a competitive offer earlier - but perhaps public opinion had an effect.
   11. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 08, 2022 at 08:11 AM (#6108675)
‘Heavy discussions’ between Red Sox & Bogaerts have ‘momentum’ is the latest report. Not sure if that’s just window dressing - Boston could have made a competitive offer earlier - but perhaps public opinion had an effect


No discernible effect at least, Xander signed with the Padres.

#### the Red Sox.
   12. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: December 08, 2022 at 08:19 AM (#6108678)
It's reportedly $280M/11 with a full no-trade but no options or opt-outs.
   13. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: December 08, 2022 at 09:17 AM (#6108684)
And Devers will be next. #### this team and #### John Henry.
   14. Rally Posted: December 08, 2022 at 10:37 AM (#6108706)
Red Sox sometimes pay top dollar for free agents, like Price and JD Martinez.

They will extend their home grown stars, but only if the player is willing to take an extreme home team discount, like Pedroia, or sign short term deals like Ortiz.

I can remember the last time they offered a market rate long term deal to any of their home grown stars.
   15. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2022 at 10:49 AM (#6108708)
Red Sox sometimes pay top dollar for free agents, like Price and JD Martinez.

They will extend their home grown stars, but only if the player is willing to take an extreme home team discount, like Pedroia, or sign short term deals like Ortiz.

I can remember the last time they offered a market rate long term deal to any of their home grown stars.
I know you said "home grown," but I think the Chris Sale extension fits the spirit of the concept.
   16. DCA Posted: December 08, 2022 at 10:51 AM (#6108710)
Obvious next step:

Devers + Sale to the Giants for David Villar, Luis Matos, and Eric Silva.

Hope the savings are spent wisely.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: December 08, 2022 at 01:47 PM (#6108746)
Red Sox sometimes pay top dollar for free agents, like Price and JD Martinez.

Other than the near-tautology that any FA you signed, you signed at "top dollar" in that you probably made the best offer ... JD Martinez was not "top dollar." That was supposedly all about the Red Sox refusing to give in to his 5/$125 demands, leading to the 3/$72 plus 2 player options at about $20 contract. The Red Sox nickeled and dimed to save themselves about $10 M ... then tried to nickel and dime Betts and Bogaerts and took advantage of the Betts trade to get out from under half of Price. That's a pattern of behavior that suggests the Red Sox will not pay top dollar for FAs or extensions and haven't been willing to do so at least since Price and Sale blew up in their face (which might make anybody skittish).

Granted, they paid top dollar (and then some) for Jansen but I don't think we got a whiff of a hint of a serious rumor that they were interested in Verlander, deGrom or Rodon.
   18. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 08, 2022 at 02:01 PM (#6108749)
The Red Sox nickeled and dimed to save themselves about $10 M ... then tried to nickel and dime Betts and Bogaerts and took advantage of the Betts trade to get out from under half of Price.
In retrospect, the Red Sox didn’t get that much from the Dodgers farm system for Betts. I wonder to what degree that was the cost of getting rid of Price’s contract or did they just miss on their evaluation of the Dodgers prospects? Or both?
   19. DCA Posted: December 08, 2022 at 02:08 PM (#6108752)
It's funny because the return on Betts looked pretty good after one season.

Verdugo turned in the equivalent of a 5 WAR season, with 4 more to go under team control, and Jeter Downs hadn't yet crapped the bed.
   20. weiss-man Posted: December 08, 2022 at 03:14 PM (#6108768)
I know batting average isn't everything, but Downs hit .154 for the Red Sox last season after hitting .197 at AAA.
   21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 08, 2022 at 03:54 PM (#6108776)
I know batting average isn't everything, but Downs hit .154 for the Red Sox last season after hitting .197 at AAA.

And .190 in 2021 at AAA. BA is everything when it's that bad in the minors. A good prospect has to be able to hit .275 against miLB pitching. Has anyone with a sub-.250 BA in the minors ever turned into something offensively?
   22. TomH Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:16 PM (#6108780)
I dunno. Jack Cust hit 267 in 3000 PA in AAA. But it was loud (almost 900 OPS) .267. So his .242 avg in the majors was not a surprise, nor was his very useful >800 OPS in a brief career.
   23. Baldrick Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:38 PM (#6108790)
The Boston Red Sox won the World Series in 2018. They also won the World Series in 2013. In 2007, they won the World Series. The World Series winners in 2004: the Red Sox.
   24. Baldrick Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:39 PM (#6108791)
Please sign my team up for this sort of incompetence!
   25. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:43 PM (#6108794)
The Boston Red Sox won the World Series in 2018. They also won the World Series in 2013. In 2007, they won the World Series. The World Series winners in 2004: the Red Sox.

Please sign my team up for this sort of incompetence!
I get what you're saying. But didn't you read the part about the various GMs who won those championships being shown the door at some point afterwards? The horror of that experience for us fans isn't worth a thousand championships!
   26. The Mighty Quintana Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6108796)
Connor Wong might turn out to be the best Sox player from the Betts trade. Good athlete, good clubhouse guy. Kurt Suzuki type career is possible.
   27. The Mighty Quintana Posted: December 08, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6108797)
The best Sox player. (Cries into beer)
   28. Jay Seaver Posted: December 08, 2022 at 05:22 PM (#6108804)
24/25 - I've said the same a lot, but I do kind of wonder if the sort of churn the Red Sox have had at all levels (players, coaching, front office) has a cumulative effect that's hard to see until the whole thing collapses, or even if the organization is just lucky that all those resets have gone as well as they did. Like, an organization that successful shouldn't be changing directions that often, and eventually you're going to get a bad fit or such a reputation for chaos that it keeps people away.

Another thing I wonder is if Henry and the rest of ownership has kind of disengaged. They've had the thrill of breaking the curse and the first championship, but everyone from their first decade are gone, and they just don't feel the same about the team without Pedroia, Ortiz, and the like (it might also explain why Henry pushed Bloom to bring Cora back; he's a connection to when owning the team was a real thrill rather before the business side took over). You don't become a billionaire by staying sentimental or emotional for long, and maybe the Red Sox are no longer the shiny new toy that's more fun than increasing one's net worth.
   29. . . . . . . Posted: December 08, 2022 at 05:30 PM (#6108807)
I still think 2018 was a super fluky year - everything broke right particularly on the P&D side of the team. IMO it's been bad for the Red Sox long term b/c they treated it as validating an organizational culture/process that was actually in steady decline since 2013.
   30. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2022 at 05:36 PM (#6108810)
24/25 - I've said the same a lot, but I do kind of wonder if the sort of churn the Red Sox have had at all levels (players, coaching, front office) has a cumulative effect that's hard to see until the whole thing collapses, or even if the organization is just lucky that all those resets have gone as well as they did. Like, an organization that successful shouldn't be changing directions that often, and eventually you're going to get a bad fit or such a reputation for chaos that it keeps people away.
I think they got lucky that all those resets went so well. But I also think whatever churn from, say, the pre-Dombrowski period, has basically zero leftover cumulative effect anymore. But more recent churn could have an effect on reputation, etc.
   31. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2022 at 05:45 PM (#6108812)
I still think 2018 was a super fluky year - everything broke right particularly on the P&D side of the team. IMO it's been bad for the Red Sox long term b/c they treated it as validating an organizational culture/process that was actually in steady decline since 2013.
This is a new one! They validated the approach that led to 3 fluky years of success by ... firing the front office. Something that devious could only be hatched by Larry Lucchino. I've said it before, I knew his "retirement" was a sham!
   32. . . . . . . Posted: December 08, 2022 at 09:06 PM (#6108829)
Eh, you’re strawmanning me. It’s more of an ownership mindset about how much to spend and whether or not to try to keep up with the joneses.
   33. karlmagnus Posted: December 08, 2022 at 09:55 PM (#6108837)
You all mock, and I admit I have never liked this ownership, but Henry's hedge fund background is a shaky basis on which to build a solid business and, given the proposed Liverpool sale and the difficulties hedge funds in general have faced since about 2015 (and are worse this year) I think he's in a cash crunch and will shortly try to sell the Sox, clearing long contracts off the books before he does it.

Otherwise, Bloom is completely incompetent, and I think that's the less likely possibility.
   34. Nasty Nate Posted: December 09, 2022 at 09:14 AM (#6108853)
Eh, you’re strawmanning me. It’s more of an ownership mindset about how much to spend and whether or not to try to keep up with the joneses.
I found your post to be incoherent, so I was ####-posting not strawmanning.

Your clarification doesn't really help me. If 2018 validated a high payroll and keeping up with the joneses, why did they go against that just a year later?
   35. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: December 09, 2022 at 11:58 AM (#6108872)
Connor Wong might turn out to be the best Sox player from the Betts trade. Good athlete, good clubhouse guy. Kurt Suzuki type career is possible.


Sure, I mean it's possible, but Suzuki already had accumulated 10 WAR (half his career total) in just a shade under 500 games through the age of 26. Wong, not so much.
   36. Bad Fish Posted: December 09, 2022 at 12:29 PM (#6108876)
The Epstein era was fairly successful, he got fired (perhaps unfairly) in the wake of the beer and chicken meltdown; Cherington is the GM who got lucky in 2013, otherwise his tenure was pretty bad. Dombrowski was also successful, 2018 had nothing to do with luck he had built a winner. Dombro got fired as the sun set on that core group, the minor league system was barren and the tax and draft implications from the his spending had put the team in a non-competitive position. The jury is out on Bloom, he probably got lucky in 2021, but he has also improved the MiL systems and cleared out a lot of dead money. The team certainly seems poised to have a sustainable long-term spending plan. In a bubble all the managerial terminations were justified but Epstein probably had eared more rope. Cherington wasn't very good and Dombrowski followed a blueprint that leads to success but also has consequences. I wouldn't want to be a Philly or Padre's fan in 4 or 5 years, and it isn't obvious that the Yankees or Dodgers won't be saddled with huge underwater contracts that impact their ability to compete.

I'm disappointed that the Sox mishandled the X negotiation, but I think they are justifiably gun shy about big money long term contracts, and I think you can make a good argument that there is better financial efficiency in a team development philosophy where you shop the mid-tier free agent/trade market and hope your farm system produces a small stream of impact players. This philosophy probably mitigates the variance of risk, which should provide consistency, while providing opportunity for high outcome amplitude when all the pieces come together.


YEAR WINS PLACE Decision Maker playoffs?
2008 95 2 Epstein lost in champ
2009 95 2 Epstein lost in division
2010 89 3 Epstein n/a
2011 90 3 Epstein n/a
2012 69 5 Cher n/a
2013 97 1 Cher n/a
2014 71 5 Cher n/a
2015 78 5 Dom n/a
2016 93 1 Dom lost in division
2017 93 1 Dom lost in division
2018 108 1 Dom won WS
2019 84 3 Dom n/a
2020 24 5 Bloom n/a
2021 92 2 Bloon lost in champ
2022 78 5 Bloom n/a
   37. Nasty Nate Posted: December 09, 2022 at 12:42 PM (#6108877)
2015 should be listed for Cherington, or at least a split.
   38. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: December 09, 2022 at 07:45 PM (#6108957)
I'm disappointed that the Sox mishandled the X negotiation, but I think they are justifiably gun shy about big money long term contracts, and I think you can make a good argument that there is better financial efficiency in a team development philosophy where you shop the mid-tier free agent/trade market and hope your farm system produces a small stream of impact players. This philosophy probably mitigates the variance of risk, which should provide consistency, while providing opportunity for high outcome amplitude when all the pieces come together.
I think you are probably right on most points here.

Thing is, I don't want the team I root for to be obsessed with "better financial efficiency" above all else. Baseball (or any sport) is not just a business. I'm tired of good-to-excellent players that are fun to watch and fun to root for being shown the door early because resigning them may not be the most "financially efficient" thing to do.

Since they are, I have slid pretty seamlessly into a more "financially efficient" mode for myself as regards the Sox: since I don't enjoy the team as much without the well-liked, still-good players that I became attached to being let go in one way or another because they are deemed too expensive, I don't go to games anymore, I rarely watch games on TV anymore and primarily follow them from afar.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Rough Carrigan
for his generous support.

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Newsblog2023 NBA Regular Season Thread
(349 - 8:46pm, Feb 04)
Last: Crosseyed and Painless

NewsblogOrioles to decline 5-year Camden Yards lease extension, seek to secure long-term agreement
(74 - 8:06pm, Feb 04)
Last: Srul Itza

Sox TherapyThe Future Starts Now (Hopefully)
(18 - 6:59pm, Feb 04)
Last: Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful

NewsblogOT Soccer Thread - Hi Ho Hi Ho it’s Back to Club Football We Go
(379 - 6:44pm, Feb 04)
Last: Biff, highly-regarded young guy

NewsblogMLB forms economic group as regional TV in peril
(2 - 6:14pm, Feb 04)
Last: Srul Itza

NewsblogRed Sox manager Alex Cora on his time with 2017 Astros, per new book: 'We stole that ... World Serie
(7 - 6:10pm, Feb 04)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogBaseball Hall of Fame tracker 2023
(743 - 5:38pm, Feb 04)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogMLB expansion: Nashville group led by Dave Stewart makes a pitch for Music City [$]
(26 - 3:00pm, Feb 04)
Last: DFA

NewsblogHow to Watch the Caribbean Series
(5 - 1:18pm, Feb 04)
Last: Jose is an Absurd Sultan

NewsblogThese MLB legends were trailblazers in Japan
(5 - 12:53pm, Feb 04)
Last: alilisd

Hall of MeritReranking Left Fielders: Results
(12 - 12:21am, Feb 04)
Last: Chris Cobb

NewsblogOT - 2022 NFL thread Part II
(330 - 11:03pm, Feb 03)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogSinclair’s Sports Channels Prepare Bankruptcy, Putting Team Payments at Risk
(26 - 7:01pm, Feb 03)
Last: Greg Franklin

Hall of MeritRanking Right Fielders in the Hall of Merit - Discussion thread
(43 - 6:03pm, Feb 03)
Last: Jaack

NewsblogJohn Adams, Who Banged His Drum in the Cleveland Bleachers, Has Died
(16 - 2:25pm, Feb 03)
Last: Barry`s_Lazy_Boy

Page rendered in 0.4051 seconds
45 querie(s) executed