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Wednesday, March 08, 2006

Chicago Sun-Times: Telander: Arrogant, greedy fraud deserves to be punished

The Reviews Are In!

Morrissey…Bonds’ Damage to Baseball Complete

Vaccaro…He Should Quit Now

Olson…Time to Bail Bonds

Justice…Bonds Ought to Quit While He’s Behind

Arvia…Mr. Selig, it’s Your Turn to Act on Bonds

Plaschke!...Shadow Will Cover More Than Barry

and always a fave, Burwell…Barry Bonds: Unmasked!

 

Repoz Posted: March 08, 2006 at 01:18 PM | 38 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: March 08, 2006 at 02:22 PM (#1888328)
Arrogant, hysterical frauds deserve to be ignored.
   2. Zapatero Posted: March 08, 2006 at 02:39 PM (#1888348)
For the sake of his legacy, Bonds can't possibly quit now. He has to prove that he can mash while he's being tested for steroids. He needs people to be able to say "look how good he was in 2006 when he was definitely off steroids, since he was being tested. It was talent, not steroids all along."*

* (I'm not saying that what is in quotes is true. I'm saying that it's what people will say)
   3. Hendry's Wad of Cash (UCCF) Posted: March 08, 2006 at 02:48 PM (#1888360)
Thank you for doing all of these in one thread. As a reader but not poster in these Bonds hate wars, I make a humble request that we not post 15 different Bonds threads a day for the next two weeks while everyone with a byline decides to weigh in on this.
   4. PhillyBooster Posted: March 08, 2006 at 02:50 PM (#1888363)
I agree with the sentiments expressed in half of the above cited articles, but disagree with those in the other half.
   5. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: March 08, 2006 at 03:27 PM (#1888400)
A book claims Bonds took steroids and sportswriters tell us how he's a big disgrace and how he should retire. Jason Giambi confesses he injected his bottocks with steroids and he's chosen as the comeback player of the year.
   6. rr Posted: March 08, 2006 at 03:31 PM (#1888404)
A book claims Bonds took steroids and sportswriters tell us how he's a big disgrace and how he should retire. Jason Giambi confesses he injected his bottocks with steroids and he's chosen as the comeback player of the year.



Well, this is about Bonds himself as much, if not more, than it's about PEDs themselves and baseball itself.
   7. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: March 08, 2006 at 03:36 PM (#1888408)
Well, this is about Bonds himself as much, if not more, than it's about PEDs themselves and baseball itself.

Actually, I think it's about America<sup>TM</sup>.
   8. DCA Posted: March 08, 2006 at 04:16 PM (#1888467)
* (I'm not saying that what is in quotes is true. I'm saying that it's what people will say)

it's not what kevin will say. That man knows whether you're clean or not. I think Santa contracts out the naughty/nice list to him.
   9. More Dewey is Always Good Posted: March 08, 2006 at 04:17 PM (#1888470)
Mariotti hasn't weighed in yet - I want to know if Barry's just a fraud, or a fraud that poops his pants.
   10. NetOwl Posted: March 08, 2006 at 04:31 PM (#1888487)
I suspect Bonds gets so much attention because he's playing like no one has since Babe Ruth and because he's not the nicest guy in the world. Giambi+ was good, but he wasn't as ridiculously good as Bonds+.

It's the same reason nobody cares about Alex Sanchez.
   11. ronh Posted: March 08, 2006 at 05:38 PM (#1888592)
He has to prove that he can mash while he's being tested for steroids. He needs people to be able to say "look how good he was in 2006 when he was definitely off steroids, since he was being tested. It was talent, not steroids all along."*

And how do we know that he isn't using a new undetectable drug in 2006?

How do we know that he isn't still using HGH, which baseball doesn't test for?

Playing in 2006 will not prove anything for Bonds.
   12. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 08, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#1888608)
* (I'm not saying that what is in quotes is true. I'm saying that it's what people will say)
Nah. Barry's in a no-win situation with the jihadists now.

If he plays badly in 2006, it's because he stopped using.
If he plays well in 2006, he's using something undetectable.

And what's worse for Bonds, "played badly" means "played badly" for him. He can have a .900 OPS (at age 41. coming off multiple knee surgeries) and people will attribute his falloff to quitting steroids.
   13. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: March 08, 2006 at 06:36 PM (#1888724)
Arrogant, greedy fraud deserves to be punished

Yes, he should have his column in the Sun-Times taken away.
   14. Mefisto Posted: March 08, 2006 at 06:44 PM (#1888751)
For the sake of his legacy, Bonds can't possibly quit now. He has to prove that he can mash while he's being tested for steroids. He needs people to be able to say "look how good he was in 2006 when he was definitely off steroids, since he was being tested. It was talent, not steroids all along."

In addition to the points made in 11 and 12, I'll add that Bonds was tested twice each in 2004 and 2005.
   15. mr. man Posted: March 08, 2006 at 06:58 PM (#1888784)
i am now convinced barry bonds took steroids. fine.

Even knowing he was using them, I would still pay to see him play. He is truly the most fascinating hitter of my generation, and the most entertaining to watch.
   16. Flynn Posted: March 08, 2006 at 07:09 PM (#1888812)
I think Barry should come up to bat with a cape, the Darth Vader music playing, and a big fake syringe sticking out of his rear. Then he should sacrifice a young Giants fan on an altar before his at-bat and eat his heart.

That would be cool. EVIL BARRY.
   17. mr. man Posted: March 08, 2006 at 07:57 PM (#1888926)
or he should wear a black turtleneck, funny flat top haircut, and tell everyone that they are terrible performers in a british accent.
   18. Richard Gadsden Posted: March 08, 2006 at 09:56 PM (#1889243)
Anyone in Phoenix demanded the 2002 NL pennant yet?

If not, then they will. Might even deserve it.

And it sure would look pretty on the BOB.
   19. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:05 PM (#1889283)
Yes, he should have his column in the Sun-Times taken away.
My thought exactly when I read that headline. I was wondering who was calling Telander names.

Reporters really shouldn't go around throwing around words like "arrogant" and "fraud" as accusations.
   20. Richard Gadsden Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:31 PM (#1889407)
#18 Whoops, McGwire had left the Cards by then. So it's St. Louis that gets the 2002 NL pennant.
   21. Richard Gadsden Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:34 PM (#1889421)
#18 Whoops, McGwire had left the Cards by then. So it's St. Louis that gets the 2002 NL pennant.
   22. Richard Gadsden Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:37 PM (#1889434)
#18 Whoops, McGwire had left the Cards by then. So it's St. Louis that gets the 2002 NL pennant.
   23. Richard Gadsden Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:42 PM (#1889455)
Sorry about the multi-post.
   24. DCA Posted: March 08, 2006 at 10:54 PM (#1889506)
And what's worse for Bonds, "played badly" means "played badly" for him. He can have a .900 OPS (at age 41. coming off multiple knee surgeries) and people will attribute his falloff to quitting steroids.

Actually that might be the best case for him. Still great, but presumably now clean. Personally, I want another .600 OBP season and no DL time. I traded Bobby Abreu for him and a pick in one of my scoresheet leagues.
   25. PerroX Posted: March 09, 2006 at 05:52 AM (#1890107)
Just run a daily roundup under the title Lynch Mob.

And is this braying the result of Bonds' treatment of them or merely confirmation that they deserved his contempt all along?

I'll now write a letter of apology to Steve Goldman -- everything he's ever written about sportswriters was on the money.
   26. PerroX Posted: March 09, 2006 at 06:17 AM (#1890123)
Let me make this clear: it's been obvious a long time that Bonds was using PEDs, and I've found most of the arguments here defending him against the charge ridiculous.

If you've read my comments for long enough, you know what my problem is -- a very thinly disguised racism that still pervades sportswriting, esp. baseball writing, to a greater extent than society at large. That is prevalent in much of what is written on these boards as well.

Race has everything to do with how Bonds is being treated. If it was McGwire in his shoes in exactly the same circumstances, a good many of the same reporters would deny the charges, and most would take an objective stance on the issue. Find me even one column that was printed in a major daily newspaper that contains close to the vitriol directed towards Barry.

Hell, O.J. never took this much abuse.
   27. FJ Posted: March 09, 2006 at 06:35 AM (#1890130)
If you've read my comments for long enough, you know what my problem is -- a very thinly disguised racism that still pervades sportswriting, esp. baseball writing, to a greater extent than society at large. That is prevalent in much of what is written on these boards as well.

Race has everything to do with how Bonds is being treated. If it was McGwire in his shoes in exactly the same circumstances, a good many of the same reporters would deny the charges, and most would take an objective stance on the issue. Find me even one column that was printed in a major daily newspaper that contains close to the vitriol directed towards Barry.


Huh? I'll admit that MAYBE because Bonds is black that he was unable to form strong bonds with the mostly white sports media which lead to poor relations he had with the media even before this story came out which possibly has led to the mob lynch mentality in a lot of the sports reporters.

If that's what you're talking about, then, we agree, though I wouldn't call it quite racism which has such a loaded connotation.

If it's some other form of racism, then, I haven't a clue what you're talking about and would like to see some arguments of why this is racism (or at least a point in the direction of your arguments if you're uninclined to restate them).

F
   28. KDub's CellPiece (BLtDH) Posted: March 09, 2006 at 03:18 PM (#1890295)
Nah. Barry's in a no-win situation with the jihadists now.

If he plays badly in 2006, it's because he stopped using.
If he plays well in 2006, he's using something undetectable.


David - Simple question: Do you believe Bonds took/takes PEDs?

BLtDH
   29. Ginger Nut Posted: March 09, 2006 at 04:36 PM (#1890425)
Perhaps everyone registering at BTF should be required to check a box stating whether they think Bonds used steroids or not. This could be added to the profiles.
   30. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: March 09, 2006 at 06:49 PM (#1890633)
Maybe we just need to post some articles explaining aversive racism every single thread that deals with race even tangentially. That way when we talk about "racism" the folks with a racial chip on their shoulder and are deeply wounded by the connotations of the term can refrain from saying, "You can't use that word! That's totally uncalled for!"

Here's a decent one to set it off :)

Since "aversive racism" seems to be the section that many folks on BTF might need a little help (perhaps less so than the general society, but...) if you are lazy, just read that section:

Aversive Racism

Aversive racism is the inherent contradiction that exists when the denial of personal prejudice co-exists with underlying unconscious negative feelings and beliefs. Unfortunately, the negative feelings and beliefs that underlie aversive racism are rooted in normal, often adaptive, psychological processes. For instance, people generally tend to like others who are similar to them. In contrast to the feelings of open hostility and clear dislike of blacks that characterize old-fashioned racism, the negative feelings that aversive racists experience are typically more diffuse, such as feelings of anxiety and uneasiness.

On top of all of this, because aversive racists consciously endorse egalitarian values and deny negative feelings about blacks, they will not discriminate directly and openly in ways that can be attributed to racism. However, because of their negative feelings they will, in fact, discriminate, often unintentionally, when their behavior can be justified on the basis of some factor other than race. Aversive racists may therefore regularly engage in discrimination while they maintain a nonprejudiced self-image. The term “aversive” in this form of racism thus refers to two aspects of this bias. It reflects the nature of the emotions associated with blacks, such as anxiety, that lead to avoidance and social awkwardness rather than to open antagonism. It also represents that, because of their conscious adherence to egalitarian principles, these whites would find any thought that they might be prejudiced to be aversive.

To make things worse, the uncomfortable and discriminatory behavior associated with aversive racism is very obvious to blacks, even while whites either don’t recognize it or consider it hidden and deny it when confronted. For instance, despite the compelling evidence of contemporary racial disparities, between 40 and 60 percent of whites responding to a recent survey, depending upon the question asked, viewed the average black in the United States as faring about as well, and often better, than the average white.1 Blacks in numerous studies report a substantial difference—discrimination is a dominant force in their lives. Consequently, whereas the subtle nature of contemporary bias leads whites to underestimate the impact of racial prejudice, it leads blacks to be particularly attuned to these inconsistent and unpredictable racist behaviors. This inconsistency erodes blacks’ confidence in a person and leads to a spiral of distrust. Blacks assume this disingenuous behavior is a consciously purposeful, old-fashioned racism—also a perfectly normal reaction since whites are, as a group, in a dominant power position.
   31. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 09, 2006 at 06:55 PM (#1890651)
David - Simple question: Do you believe Bonds took/takes PEDs?
Took? I think the evidence that he took PEDs, while circumstantial, is compelling. (As I've said in the other thread, I really want to see these alleged "calendars" that they took from Greg Anderson.) But takes? I have no knowledge that he currently takes them, or has taken them since baseball instituted its testing/sanction policy a couple of years ago.
   32. PerroX Posted: March 10, 2006 at 12:29 AM (#1891236)
I wouldn't necessarily adopt the whole framework of "aversive racism", but it makes several accurate points. Outright racial thoughts and feelings are now taboo in the public sphere and not even acceptable "thought" in the heads of most of these folks. They not only don't want anyone to think of them as racially prejudiced, they don't want to think of themselves as such.

These racial feelings, which are obviously part of the package of being human, find their opportunity to spring forth from their mental cages whenever a black man or woman can be objectively criticized for some fault, flaw, or even major wrongdoing. But what you get is not mere criticism but bile and hatred heaped upon the head of the convenient target.

Bonds is an easy target in many ways and makes it easier not to see the racial component, but look at two favorite whippin' boys around here -- Dusty Baker and Joe Morgan. They not only get called every name in the book, you've got constant criticism that questions their manhood, their livlihood and in some cases, even their right to keep breathing. Yep, some yahoo expressed the wish to murder Dusty because Chad Fox's arm fell off.

Back to Bonds, why do you think the Lynch Mob has picked this moment to unload all their guns? Perhaps because one good week or two and Ruth is third on the homer list? Is the Lynch Mob really that different in character than the racist yahoos that bombarded Hank Aaron when he got close to that record? It's a different time and place, but the same desire is manifest -- string him up before he lays his dirty, filthy hands on our sacred object.

I love Hank, but I'm now pulling for Bonds not only to pass Ruth but Aaron as well. Then it won't really matter what the louses have to say about him. He'll be the all-time home run king and not likely topped until he's long dead and buried.
   33. schuey Posted: March 10, 2006 at 01:02 AM (#1891296)
And when Bonds is long dead and buried his body will be preserved thanks to all the chemicals he took.
   34. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: March 10, 2006 at 01:05 AM (#1891301)
I'm not a big fan of the theory of aversive racism, though I admit I'm not that well informed on the subject.

To me, it has too many connections with a simple version of depth psychology, a too-Freudian model of unconscious repression, to be as useful as I'd like. I think a more open model that doesn't look for a fact of racism in an individual, but rather to the way in which the individual is not sealed but rather constructed through the racial discourse of her culture will be more productive.

I guess I do disagree to some degree with the use of the term "racist." It does seem to me that in talking about these specific studies of bias, the word "racist" is justified. In talking about broader cultural trends which are not studied in peer-reviewed journals, I'm concerned about the jump toward a knowledge of interiority. It's not that said interiority isn't racist, necessarily, but that you get into basically impossible debates. I think that looking at the way statements and actions can be racist regardless of interiority - Kant's full of crap on ethics anyway - can be a more productive rhetorical stance in this sort of setting.

I'm concerned that I'm taking the position that lets whitey off the hook in public, and I do think that I am prone to something that looks like aversive racism. But I'm not sold on the psychoanalytic theory behind aversive racism, or on aversive racism as a rhetorical stance.

Unlike GoRW, I am not rooting for Bonds. He cheated. It's messed up as hell how he's become the face of the steroid problem, but he is part of the steroid problem, and I don't like that.

By the way, I pointed this out in the other thread, now closed, but I think it bears repeating in this context. The Bonds debate cannot help but become embroiled in all the screwed up racial discourses in our country. One person wrote, "If there weren't any racists before Barry, he certainly tried his best to create some." and there was barely any response.
   35. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: March 10, 2006 at 03:40 AM (#1891527)
You responded quite well regarding the tendency to blame oppressed groups for the oppression that they face.
   36. JMM Posted: March 10, 2006 at 03:55 AM (#1891575)
And when Bonds is long dead and buried his body will be preserved thanks to all the chemicals he took.

No, quite probably, several years -- if not a decade or two -- earlier than it would have been otherwise.

The problem with claiming that there is some aversive racism at work with how Bonds is perceived/treated by the media/public is that race is hardly the only the difference between Bonds and McGwire. While neither was ever really noted for his personal charm (well, maybe McGwire during his rookie year, though by his second season he had become notoriously surly), they were different styles of arsehole, at least with the media: Bonds, more in their face with his disdain; McGwire, more reclusive such that he could be thought of merely shy. Bonds would openly say "F*** you" to these guys; McGwire would just grumble and be non-cooperative.

[Both of these contrast with Jeff Kent, who was foul to everyone but the media, whose ass he sucked up to almost passionately.]
   37. JMM Posted: March 10, 2006 at 04:01 AM (#1891595)
That should be "And, quite probably, several years" not "No." I blame Yoko.

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