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Saturday, July 04, 2020

Cleveland Indians look into changing name amid pressure

They’ve been known as the Cleveland Indians since 1915. Those days could be over.

Amid new pressure sparked by a national movement to correct racial wrongdoings, the Indians said Friday night they will review their long-debated nickname which has been in place for 105 years.

“We are committed to making a positive impact in our community and embrace our responsibility to advance social justice and equality,” the team said in a statement that came just hours after the NFL’s Washington Redskins announced a similar move. “Our organization fully recognizes our team name is among the most visible ways in which we connect with the community.”

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 04, 2020 at 09:27 AM | 203 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cleveland indians

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   101. Howie Menckel Posted: July 05, 2020 at 03:08 PM (#5961190)
I'm much more offended by the notion that someone would consider Irish-Americans a put-upon minority


who said they were a "put-upon minority?"

(unless one of those I block did, perhaps)
   102. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 05, 2020 at 03:19 PM (#5961192)
Black hand't been a Klansman for over a decade when he was nominated. He did give many anti-Catholic speeches, but later hired a Catholic secretary. There was a 1965 case where he ruled against the Klan.

Are people never allowed to renounce prior views, or are they stained for eternity?

renouncing prior views is not enough to make up for prior actions, especially for someone in public life.

any meaningful change in viewpoint must be backed by meaningful action, or else it's hollow. case in point: jerry jones taking a knee while continuing to blackball colin kaepernick.


and to be clear, this concept isn't limited to positive changes in viewpoint. consider lindsay graham's stated views on donald trump. that change in viewpoint isn't hollow because it has been back by grayham's meaningful prostrations to his new john mccain: donald trump.
   103. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 05, 2020 at 03:28 PM (#5961193)
Could you answer the question I asked in 64?


He's too busy humming troll on big river
   104. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 05, 2020 at 03:36 PM (#5961194)
Albion College Britons
ULL Ragin' Cajuns
Hope College Flying Dutchmen
Union College Dutchmen
Iona and St. Mary's Gaels
Luther College and Northern Kentucky Norse (and several vikings)
Alma, Wooster, Edinboro, Gordon, MzcAllister, Monmouth and a dozen other Scots
Bethany College Swedes

Yep 'tis the Irish, ourselves alone as one says.


But why did USC name themselves for a condom?
   105. winnipegwhip Posted: July 05, 2020 at 05:16 PM (#5961207)
Are people never allowed to renounce prior views, or are they stained for eternity?


Fair question. It used to be that way. Nowadays I don't think so.
   106. winnipegwhip Posted: July 05, 2020 at 05:18 PM (#5961208)
rr: so whip's a troll? thanks.Good to know, and on ignore.


Is troll the new racist?
   107. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2020 at 05:45 PM (#5961209)
#106 No. Troll is the same as it's always been. It's mostly failing to argue in good faith.
   108. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 05, 2020 at 05:50 PM (#5961210)
More like the other way around, since both words are now applied in some cases where they're accurate and other cases where they just mean that the one person didn't like what the other person said.
   109. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 05, 2020 at 06:39 PM (#5961213)
More like the other way around, since both words are now applied in some cases where they're accurate and other cases where they just mean that the one person didn't like what the other person said.

also possible: "your" racist friend has been terrorizing other people for decades, and you've been taking his side thereby implicitly reinforcing his racist views and solidifying your own indifference to it while also alienating and gaslighting the people who are most at risk from it.

but that's probably not worth considering, right.
   110. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 05, 2020 at 06:45 PM (#5961214)
Well, I'm certainly not friends with anyone who has been terrorizing people for decades, so you've clearly got the wrong guuy.
   111. Egregious Hidden Genitals (CoB). Posted: July 05, 2020 at 06:52 PM (#5961216)
"your" racist friend


Obligatory
   112. Jay Z Posted: July 05, 2020 at 06:52 PM (#5961215)
Fair question. It used to be that way. Nowadays I don't think so.


Then the people doing it are wrong.

Casting the first stone, don't speak ill of the dead and all that. My life couldn't hold up to that sort of scrutiny. Maybe some people's can.
   113. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 05, 2020 at 07:56 PM (#5961218)
Then the people doing it are wrong.


They would be if they were, but they're not; tho see rr in 92.
--

and then there are these guys.
   114. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2020 at 08:57 PM (#5961222)
#112 It came up in Black's confirmation hearing -- in fact it was a pretty big issue then (now of course it would be absolutely disqualifying). Black was able to demonstrate that he wasn't a member for long (1923-25). But the real thing he had going for him was his public record. Pretty much the antithesis of what the Klan stood for.

Worth noting that Thurgood Marshall knew him before he became a Supreme Court Justice, thought him a good man (in fact asked Black to administer the oath when he was sworn in to the Supreme Court), and didn't think anything of his membership in the Klan. ("You had to have a Klan sign in your window in Alabama. Any place in Alabama. He’s from Alabama."). And maintained a long friendship with Black.

   115. Ron J Posted: July 05, 2020 at 09:09 PM (#5961223)
Speaking of awkward nicknames. Simon Fraser University Clansmen. It's meant as a reference to the fact that Fraser was a Scot, but 90% of student athletes want it changed and I think we can all guess why (cue some Groundskeeper Willie philosophy)

Obviously not a new issue.
   116. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 05, 2020 at 09:41 PM (#5961225)
Black's issue was anti-Catholicism.

Are Jack Chick comics still distributed?
   117. Howie Menckel Posted: July 05, 2020 at 09:57 PM (#5961226)
the Simon Fraser Cranes has a certain ring to it
   118. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: July 05, 2020 at 11:42 PM (#5961231)
Here's how I think about it: if the Mets decided to change their name to the Jews, even if they said it was in tribute to the large and great Jewish community of Queens, I'd be pretty ####### offended.

There's no need to name a team after an ethnic group. It serves no purpose, and even if you can cite a dubious study saying most people of that ethnicity aren't offended (I'd venture it's because most of them have bigger problems to think about), it's just a shitty thing to do in today's world.
   119. Adam Starblind Posted: July 06, 2020 at 07:51 AM (#5961244)
Some buzz about a possible new mascot.
   120. Ron J Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:16 AM (#5961246)
#118 In fact that's generally what a deeper dive into polling results about "Indians" or particularly "Redskins" shows. Indifference because their are plenty of higher priorities.
   121. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:37 AM (#5961247)
Are Jack Chick comics still distributed?


That's who the Memphis Chicks were named for.
   122. Dolf Lucky Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:44 AM (#5961248)
#119 The Cleveland Rick and Rollers
   123. Thok Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:23 AM (#5961251)
To be fair, Cleveland Rocks wouldn't be a horrible name and has connections to Cleveland's history. Make it Cleveland Rockers if you want it to be more obviously people. It sounds weird at first, but so did the Baltimore Ravens.
   124. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:29 AM (#5961252)
It sounds weird at first, but so did the Baltimore Ravens.
still believe they should have been the baltimore pit beef
   125. manchestermets Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:46 AM (#5961255)
Some buzz about a possible new mascot.


I feel it worth mentioning that this is a bullsh#t meme too that degrades BTF. Ha ha ha, it's a link to a photo of a woman that this space overwhelmingly inhabited by men deem to be unattractive. What could be funnier than that?
   126. Zonk. Person. Man. Camera. TV. Posted: July 06, 2020 at 10:23 AM (#5961260)
In the spirit of eternal sports names, I hereby demand a return to the tradition of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays... I'm tired of all these woke god people running roughshod over our hallowed traditions.

Stand strong, Duke Blue Devils! Stand Strong!
   127. SoSH U at work Posted: July 06, 2020 at 10:34 AM (#5961262)
I hereby demand a return to the tradition of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays...


That was a much better name. It had a nice rhythm to it.
   128. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:30 AM (#5961274)
Well, I'm certainly not friends with anyone who has been terrorizing people for decades, so you've clearly got the wrong guuy.
how sure are you about that?:

The day after the Wisconsin game, Chambers told Bolton he knew the freshman was under a lot of pressure and wanted to help him. Bolton recalls Chambers, who was on the hot seat due to the suspension and a 7-8 record at that point in the season, saying, “I want to be a stress reliever for you. You can talk to me about anything. I need to get some of this pressure off you.

“I want to loosen the noose that’s around your neck.”
...
Chambers was not required to undergo any diversity or cultural competency training. Bolton was referred to Penn State’s sports psychologist, a white man, who among other things, advised Bolton to learn how to deal with Chambers’ personality type.

“Rasir was taught how to deal with Coach Chambers,” Chalonda Bolton said. “What was Coach Chambers taught?”
...
As protests peaked, the National Association of Basketball Coaches invited Chambers to serve as a panelist for a webinar on how coaches can address racial injustice. Bolton saw a report of it come across his phone and felt disrespected all over again. That’s when the family reached out to me to discuss the reasons Bolton decided to leave Penn State.

When I told Chambers I thought he should be learning from the panel, not leading it, he said: “I was invited on. Again, I apologize to Rasir and his family if I caused them pain. It was a really poor choice of words. But I do think I was the right guy to be on that panel, as a white male who has done this for a long time and been in this world for a long time.”

What is this world that Chambers is talking about? And why is it so different from the Boltons’?

   129. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:39 AM (#5961280)
The Cleveland Drew Careys

The Cleveland Burning Rivers

The Cleveland Charboneaus


But they'll probably come up with something generic and inappropriate like the Cleveland Crocodiles or something. I'm still pissed off about "Columbus Blue Jackets".

   130. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:40 AM (#5961281)
The Cleveland Drew Careys

The Cleveland Burning Rivers

The Cleveland Charboneaus


But they'll probably come up with something generic and inappropriate like the Cleveland Crocodiles or something. I'm still pissed off about "Columbus Blue Jackets".
the cleveland jorts
the columbus rapiers.
   131. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: July 06, 2020 at 12:05 PM (#5961292)
Wrong thread.
   132. Obo Posted: July 06, 2020 at 12:11 PM (#5961295)
Cleveland Ubus
   133. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 01:21 PM (#5961299)
I considered the Cleveland Post-Industrial Blightscapes, but figured it wouldn't focus group well.
   134. Karl from NY Posted: July 06, 2020 at 02:59 PM (#5961310)
If the Washington Redskins want to change their name to be less indicative of racial bigotry, they could just be the Virginia Redskins.
   135. RJ in TO Posted: July 06, 2020 at 03:42 PM (#5961319)
Wrong thread.
There's no need for editorial comments.
   136. Greg Pope Posted: July 06, 2020 at 04:36 PM (#5961329)
If the Washington Redskins want to change their name to be less indicative of racial bigotry, they could just be the Virginia Redskins.

The joke going around in 1997 was "The Washington Bullets are changing their name due to the violence implied by the current name. So going forward they are going to be the Virginia Bullets".
   137. Greg Pope Posted: July 06, 2020 at 04:41 PM (#5961330)
It seems to me that there's a difference between the Cleveland Indians and the Atlanta Braves. The Braves are specifically named after the "warrior class" of Indians. It's the same reason that Vikings is different than Norsemen. Naming after an entire ethnic group is more problematic.

My viewpoint only. If Native Americans as a whole don't make the distinction, and think that Braves is just as bad, that's clearly the valid viewpoint.

And yes, it seems like the famous Washington Post poll is pretty much bunk.
   138. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 05:07 PM (#5961338)
.
   139. Red Menace Posted: July 06, 2020 at 05:20 PM (#5961340)
I'm still pissed off about "Columbus Blue Jackets".


I defend Blue Jackets. The Civil War motif offers many opportunities for fan regalia / sloganeering (and when Atlanta had a team good trash talk potential). The mascot making people think it was just a generic insect is unfortunate, but has been played down in recent years.
   140. winnipegwhip Posted: July 06, 2020 at 06:47 PM (#5961352)
Cleveland Steamers
   141. TJ Posted: July 06, 2020 at 07:20 PM (#5961357)
I'm fascinated by the idea that the Irish alone should be represented by a university nickname, complete with a leprechaun mascot.


I went to a small college whose nickname is “The Scots”. No one cared about that because A. Our men’s sports teams sucked (the IM basketball games drew more fans than our varsity did and the top IM teams had more talent) and B. Our mascots were a guy in a kilt and a Scottish terrier. Nothing inspires fear in your opponent like a guy in a skirt and a purse dog...
   142. TJ Posted: July 06, 2020 at 07:27 PM (#5961358)
Washington should just go with the “Red Derms”. Make some superficial changes to their logo to eliminate the Native American focus and you’re all set!

Or they could try the Washington Third Degree Sunburns...
   143. SoSH U at work Posted: July 06, 2020 at 07:38 PM (#5961362)
I went to a small college whose nickname is “The Scots”.


Wooster?

   144. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:06 PM (#5961365)
“I want to be a stress reliever for you. You can talk to me about anything. I need to get some of this pressure off you.

“I want to loosen the noose that’s around your neck.”


Knowing nothing about this story beyond what is excerpted above, my reaction is that the player needs to develop far thicker skin. He's going to find life very difficult if he takes offense at something so obviously well-intended.

I'd probably think differently if it were well-known to his coach that he witnessed his father, grandfather, and uncles all get lynched. But I doubt that's the case.

Or maybe the coach has a history of actually putting his players in nooses. In which case, I think that's a tad more offensive than what he said.
   145. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:26 PM (#5961371)
I feel it worth mentioning that this [linking to Abright photos] is a bullsh#t meme too that degrades BTF. Ha ha ha, it's a link to a photo of a woman that this space overwhelmingly inhabited by men deem to be unattractive. What could be funnier than that?


Thank you. Agreed. It would be better, of course, if people everywhere did what they could to improve things rather than hollow actions in nearly pointless places like message boards.
   146. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:44 PM (#5961375)
I do want to know where that figure -- the noose -- comes from, which the coach seemed unable to explain. So much of the response to calls from awareness seems to be grow thicker skin, which can be a vert thin-skinned reaction.
   147. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:46 PM (#5961376)

SoSH - Scots (see 104) is the most popular of ethnic team names.
   148. SoSH U at work Posted: July 06, 2020 at 08:56 PM (#5961379)
SoSH - Scots (see 104) is the most popular of ethnic team names.


I know, but Wooster has had a terrier mascot (as well as the kilt-wearing dude), something not all of them do (for instance, I know Macalester doesn't).
   149. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:09 PM (#5961381)
Thank you. Agreed. It would be better, of course, if people everywhere did what they could to improve things rather than hollow actions in nearly pointless places like message boards

i'd like to provide a counterpoint to this sentiment:

as someone who frequently enjoyed posting the albright meme before i lost the link for it a few years ago, i completely agree that it deserves to die.


that is all.
   150. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:21 PM (#5961382)
I do want to know where that figure -- the noose -- comes from, which the coach seemed unable to explain.

That's fair. To me, it doesn't sound like such a bizarre phrase that I'm wondering how in the world he came up with it. But then again, the more I think about it, I can't recall whether I've ever heard it used.


So much of the response to calls from awareness seems to be grow thicker skin, which can be a vert thin-skinned reaction.

I don't think "grow thicker skin" is a fair comment all the time. Don't be such an #######, or don't be so crudely offensive, and the person wouldn't feel offended. But when one's intent appears to be positive - again, I don't know the context, I'm just basing this on what is printed above - why get twisted up over indelicate or inartful phrasing? Explain why the comment upset you, and maybe you can come to an increased understanding and appreciation for each other. Leaving school over it seems a little extreme. A sign of a brittle spirit, as Dave Chappelle might say.

Even for a lunatic like Stiggles, equating a single ill-conceived comment to decades of terrorizing people seems a bit over the top.
   151. TJ Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:30 PM (#5961385)
SoSH, it was Alma College in Michigan. Sports were not that big for us- as I was told by classmates, “Don’t get cocky- if you were any good, you wouldn’t be playing here”...
   152. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:34 PM (#5961387)
Knowing nothing about this story beyond what is excerpted above, my reaction is that the player needs to develop far thicker skin. He's going to find life very difficult if he takes offense at something so obviously well-intended.

a: it's not your place to make any such judgement.
b: if an employee or player feels like their trust has been violated by a manager, there can be no expectation for that person to abide by it, as if nothing happened. it may not matter to you, but it matters to them and they're not living your life.
c: "i want to help scrub the zyklon off your skin" -- we can all agree that's not an acceptable line of encouragement, no matter how well-intended it is, right. so there's obviously a line to be drawn.
d: having your mentor, someone you trust, talk about loosing the noose around your neck is a completely ####### wretched experience, full ####### stop. sure, some may not be as immediately and viscerally sickened as this player was, but that doesn't make it okay.


there is an unending flow of casual and rhetorical violence that is visited upon african americans, and all of society needs to address it, because it is wholly unhealthy for us to pile so much casual trauma on an entire isolated group of our residents. it's a ####### cancer.
   153. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 09:52 PM (#5961388)
I can sort of guess where the phrase might come from but it's really inapt in that case because what was the kid facing to approximate it--sounds like he had a noose around his own neckng . As for the kid, the imbalances of power is problem compounded by hos own performance, I mean, we're looking at all these instances of things far worse where nothing was said, where far worse transgressions were covered for.

I'm not arguing a death sentence or a firing for the coach, but

Chambers was not required to undergo any diversity or cultural competency training. Bolton was referred to Penn State’s sports psychologist, a white man, who among other things, advised Bolton to learn how to deal with Chambers’ personality type


tells me that PSU really hasn't learned much from an active decade in Happy Valley and elsewhere.

He doesn't seem to be the only player upset with it.
   154. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 10:44 PM (#5961392)
Even for a lunatic like Stiggles,
you're welcome. it's 57i66135.
Even for a lunatic like Stiggles, equating a single ill-conceived comment to decades of terrorizing people seems a bit over the top.
it's never just one...anything. good or bad, people are who they are.

just one example, from the excerpt already quoted in [128]:
As protests peaked, the National Association of Basketball Coaches invited Chambers to serve as a panelist for a webinar on how coaches can address racial injustice. Bolton saw a report of it come across his phone and felt disrespected all over again. That’s when the family reached out to me to discuss the reasons Bolton decided to leave Penn State.


tells me that PSU really hasn't learned much from an active decade in Happy Valley and elsewhere.

maybe. james franklin** (football) and cael sanderson (wrestling) are two of the best "people"/"edjumakators" in college sports, imo. i think they've repeatedly shown that they put the wellbeing of their players above (nearly) all else, even if/when it costs them results on the field/mat. they're good people and that goes a long way.

alot of coaches (many of them successful) can get you to run through a wall for them; very few are willing to run through a wall themselves, for their players. that's why people like john validation, jerry tarkanian and jay wright are hard to find.


** one of the hiccups when penn state hired franklin was his questionable decision making after a rape allegation against a few of his players at vanderbilt. based on what has come out, those questionable decisions amounted to a few apparent liberties taken when reacting to the incident in a team meeting, and reaching out to the victim to offer his support.
I'm not arguing a death sentence or a firing for the coach, but
he deserved to be fired on the merits of his performance as a basketball coach. with this coming out on top of that...no. he's gotta go.

it may not be "fair" to him, but it seems pretty likely to be in the best interest of the players on the team.
   155. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:09 PM (#5961397)
it may not be "fair" to him, but it seems pretty likely to be in the best interest of the players on the team.


Trust ya for it. I wasn't making the argument because before today I'd never heard of the guy.

John Validation?


I'd like to think that's Thompson, but I'll ask who.
   156. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:13 PM (#5961398)
I'd like to think that's Thompson, but I'll ask who.
somebody doesn't go into the NBA thread.

validation == calipari.
   157. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:15 PM (#5961399)
Trust ya for it. I wasn't making the argument because before today I'd never heard of the guy.
the last time he was in the news, it was because of this:

Penn State basketball coach Patrick Chambers has been suspended by the school for one game for shoving a player during Thursday night's game against Michigan, the school announced in a press release Friday.

"Coach Chambers and I have spoken about what occurred during the Michigan game and he is very remorseful," Penn State athletics director Sandy Barbour said about the incident that saw Chambers reach out and appear to push freshman guard Myles Dread in the chest during a timeout in the first half of the Nittany Lions' loss to the Wolverines.

"His actions were unacceptable, which he recognized, and he apologized to Myles Dread last night and his family today," Barbour wrote. "His actions do not reflect the values of Penn State and the expectations we set for our programs and must not occur again."
   158. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 06, 2020 at 11:44 PM (#5961400)
No, he doesn't, he'd put Thompson about top on any list of coaches for players. & yep, someone's neck was in a noose.
   159. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 12:07 AM (#5961402)
I don't blame the Penn State player for immediately associating the comment with lynching, given it's not a cliche-level expression, but my immediate reaction upon reading that was he was simply alluding to the "put your neck in a noose" idiom.
   160. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 12:32 AM (#5961403)
I don't blame the Penn State player for immediately associating the comment with lynching, given it's not a cliche-level expression, but my immediate reaction upon reading that was he was simply alluding to the "put your neck in a noose" idiom.
ummmm.....
   161. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 12:35 AM (#5961404)
ummmm....


What?
   162. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 01:06 AM (#5961406)
What?
well, for one: that's not an idiom. "straight from the horse's ass" is an idiom; "put your neck in a noose" is a literal reference to lynching.

for two, idiom or not, it's wildly inappropriate to say anything like that in a professional setting that's not a trump and/or klan rally in 2020. that #### doesn't fly. be better (and/or best).
   163. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 01:14 AM (#5961407)
speaking of wildly inappropriate:

my god desean jackson. no. stop it. too late. but for ##### sake. what the ####.
Kyle Neubeck @KyleNeubeck
not a sentence I thought I'd be writing tonight:

DeSean Jackson is under fire after posting (and later defending) anti-semitic quotes purportedly from Adolf Hitler on his Instagram story this weekend
   164. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 01:32 AM (#5961409)
here's a ####### lede that's peak 2020:
Undeterred by Farrakhan's record of anti-semitism or the nature of posting a quote he believed to be from Hitler, Jackson offered Monday that anyone who believed the quote to be hateful to the Jewish community, "took my post the wrong way." In an additional follow-up post, Jackson shared the image of the passage once again, leaving only the following block of text: "The [sic] will extort America, their plan for world domination won't work if the Negroes know who they were."

also: shout out to former eagles team president joe banner for seeing that there's a point to be made and then just pissing all over it for his own shits and giggles.
If a white player said anything about AA’s as outrageous as what Desean Jackson said about Jews tonight there would at least be a serious conversation about cutting him and a need for a team meeting to discuss. Which would be totally appropriate. Absolutely indefensible.

— Joe Banner (@JoeBanner13) July 7, 2020
   165. PreservedFish Posted: July 07, 2020 at 01:38 AM (#5961410)
I wonder how differently 1999's "niggardly" controversy would play out today. At the time, I was in the (apparent) minority in believing that the word, despite its innocent etymology, had become highly inappropriate (which doesn't necessarily mean that the dude that used it should have lost his job - maybe just scolded). The Chairman of the NAACP said "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding." I disagreed. If your audience's "lack of understanding" causes them to interpret you as a rank racist, yes, you should probably modify the words you use. And "niggardly" seems like it's designed to make even the well-educated wince.

I haven't changed my opinion - I imagine that the mainstream has. And anyway, it's a fine opportunity to use "parsimonious," which was on every list of SAT vocabulary I ever saw.
   166. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 02:17 AM (#5961411)
Niggardly is one of those words I know but never really used, so I mourn the the word less than the lack of attention to language. At the same time, if the goal is communication, then audience matters, and as Rummy might have said, you converse with the audience you have, not the audience you want; or, as the American Philosopher Russell Bufalino put it, It's what it is.
   167. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:09 AM (#5961417)
well, for one: that's not an idiom.


As is often the case, you're wrong. That's you're not familiar with it isn't surprising, but it is. It means to put oneself in a difficult position.

As I said, it's not widely used, but it exists. If I were to hear it, I would immediately think that was the speaker's intent (in much the same way that's what I thought when I read it).

Of course, I'm a 53-year-old man, not a 19-year-old African American. Given the context, it is wildly inappropriate, and I don't fault the young man for his response. But my hope is the old man was simply being oblivious to the context, not actively malicious.

I see it similar to the niggardly controversy.
   168. BrianBrianson Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:47 AM (#5961419)

I feel it worth mentioning that this is a bullsh#t meme too that degrades BTF. Ha ha ha, it's a link to a photo of a woman that this space overwhelmingly inhabited by men deem to be unattractive. What could be funnier than that?


Whoa! We're supposed to find her unattractive? Am I the only one who finds power sexy?
   169. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:51 AM (#5961421)
Hope College Flying Dutchmen


I think that one’s a reference to a ship, not to people from the Netherlands.
   170. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:55 AM (#5961422)
I think that one’s a reference to a ship, not to people from the Netherlands.


Given the school is located in Holland, I don't think you're right.
   171. manchestermets Posted: July 07, 2020 at 09:40 AM (#5961429)
It would be better, of course, if people everywhere did what they could to improve things rather than hollow actions in nearly pointless places like message boards


Hey, you should see some of my angry tweets...
   172. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 07, 2020 at 10:27 AM (#5961437)
Several years ago a black friend raised his eyebrows at me when I used the expression "call a spade a spade." I had absolutely no idea any racial connotation had attached to it, but I've stopped using it. Turns out when someone thinks you've said something racist, following it up with "but the ultimate source of this idiom is a phrase in Plutarch's Apophthegmata Laconica:'τὴν σκάφην σκάφην λέγοντας (tēn skaphēn skaphēn legontas). The word σκαφη (skaphe) means 'basin, or trough.' Lucian De Hist. Conscr. has τα συκα συκα, την σκαφην δε σκαφην ονομασων (ta suka suka, ten skaphen de skaphen onomason), 'calling a fig a fig, and a trough a trough'" doesn't really resonate.
   173. the virus could be killed by injecting 57i66135 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 12:28 PM (#5961477)
As is often the case, you're wrong. That's you're not familiar with it isn't surprising, but it is. It means to put oneself in a difficult position.

let's revisit my comment in [109]:
also possible: "your" racist friend has been terrorizing other people for decades, and you've been taking his side thereby implicitly reinforcing his racist views and solidifying your own indifference to it while also alienating and gaslighting the people who are most at risk from it.

but that's probably not worth considering, right.
   174. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 01:38 PM (#5961510)
Given the school is located in Holland, I don't think you're right.


Absolutely, and why I included it. If you lnow the legend -- ghost ship fated never to find port -- they'd be the Hopeless College Eternal Losers.

ETA: it's a college of the Dutch Reformed Church or Reformed Church in America, I think they call it over here.
   175. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 07, 2020 at 03:16 PM (#5961536)
If MLB were really into marketing the sport team names/logos would change semi-regularly. Make it an interactive contest. Get fans engaged. Then push out the whole new line of whatever.

This clinging to names selected decades ago by people long dead is so ####### weird.
   176. PreservedFish Posted: July 07, 2020 at 03:23 PM (#5961539)
This clinging to names selected decades ago by people long dead is so ####### weird.

Really? We root for laundry. Changing the name severs one of the only enduring characteristics of a century-old team. Perhaps the only enduring characteristic.
   177. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:02 PM (#5961551)
We root for laundry. Changing the name severs one of the only enduring characteristics of a century-old team.


Teams move, wen geography is probably the more salient fact. I can more imagine someone saying, "Milwaukee?? [Or "Atlanta??"] Thath's it, I'm no longer a Braves fan!" than feeling pique at the change of a name ... unless, of course, you're one of those people who delights in doing the Tomahawk Chop, in which case my sympathy for you [a generic "you," Fish) is limited.
   178. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:12 PM (#5961552)
176--Marketing research my firm has done for pro teams is that folks 55 and older are team oriented and once you get to 35 and younger those people are player oriented. FWIW

That and a lot of pro and college teams have changed names and mascots over many decades. No attendance impact anyone can find. ####, the number one reason people think of when considering going to a baseball game is, wait for it, weather. This crowd I get it, you have a whole different mindset. But the non-hardcore fan is going because it's a nice evening, they want the experience with baseball in the background. I know folks here don't want to hear it but for non-baseball crazed people baseball games are considered quality white noise for the bulk of fans.

Teams need to think in terms of the marketing opportunity.
   179. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:17 PM (#5961553)
On the one hand, the reaction of one of my Indian-fan friends to the potential name change suggests PF is correct. On the other, it seems that anger dissipates over time, and I'm not sure there's really any long-term affect on team loyalty. It certainly doesn't seem to harm the many colleges that have changed names through the years.

And as the mayor notes, the city is vastly more important as an enduring characteristic than the name.
   180. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:21 PM (#5961556)
That and a lot of pro and college teams have changed names and mascots over many decades.
Cleveland should go with something minor league style, like the River Flames.
   181. PreservedFish Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:24 PM (#5961557)
Yes, location is more important.
   182. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 04:26 PM (#5961558)
they want the experience with baseball in the background.


When I went to games, it took practice for me not get angry with people around me treating it as a picnic with a game on the tv "over there" somewhere. But as Jeremy says, they come for the weather and no team is going to have a true fans only policy.

There are also times when name changes are called for but don't happen -- LA Lakers? The brown one in MacArthur Park? Arizona Cardinals? A rarity indeed! Utah Jazz? Nuff said.
   183. Booey Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:16 PM (#5961572)
#182 - Calls for name changes on those latter teams have been rightly ignored. Fan nostalgia should be overruled when a team name is racially or culturally offensive, but not just cuz it doesn't make regional sense or cuz fans of other teams think it's dumb. Those are petty reasons to force change on a fanbase that's fond of their moniker.
   184. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:22 PM (#5961574)

#182 - Calls for name changes on those latter teams have been rightly ignored. Fan nostalgia should be overruled when a team name is racially or culturally offensive, but not just cuz it doesn't make regional sense or cuz fans of other teams think it's dumb. Those are petty reasons to force change on a fanbase that's fond of their moniker.


It probably doesn't make sense now, but I think every team should change the nickname when the franchise shifts locations. I think it helps you craft your identity quicker, and it allows the old city to keep the name should they steal a team from a different city in the future.

   185. Thok Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:32 PM (#5961577)
It probably doesn't make sense now, but I think every team should change the nickname when the franchise shifts locations. I think it helps you craft your identity quicker, and it allows the old city to keep the name should they steal a team from a different city in the future.


This might be true most of the time, but the San Diego Rockets did the right thing in keeping their name when they moved to Houston.
   186. Booey Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:38 PM (#5961578)
#184 - I'd be fine with that. For those who didn't though, still calling for them to do so decades later is just silly.

Edit: #185 - Yeah, that's one of the rare times where the old moniker made MORE sense in the new location.
   187. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:45 PM (#5961580)
This might be true most of the time, but the San Diego Rockets did the right thing in keeping their name when they moved to Houston.



It's almost as if they picked the new location based on the appropriateness of the nickname.
   188. Howie Menckel Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:49 PM (#5961582)
it also worked for the Los Angeles Lakers and Utah Jazz!
   189. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 07, 2020 at 05:51 PM (#5961584)
176--Marketing research my firm has done for pro teams is that folks 55 and older are team oriented and once you get to 35 and younger those people are player oriented. FWIW
It seems like there's a bit of a gulf between "35 and younger those people are player oriented" and "team names are meaningless, let's just change them every few years", but presumably you were just summarising and could elaborate. Regardless, two questions:

--If younger people don't care about team names, why would renaming the team get them more engaged?
--What does the data say about people between 35-55?
   190. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 06:07 PM (#5961590)
If younger people don't care about team names, why would renaming the team get them more engaged?


1- Internet polls!!!
2- New merchandise!!!

Of course, they already do a fair job of #2 with uniform changes and multiple color combinations. tradition survives to the extent it can be monetized.
   191. TJ Posted: July 07, 2020 at 07:28 PM (#5961597)
Hope College Flying Dutchmen


I think that one’s a reference to a ship, not to people from the Netherlands.


Hope is in the same conference as Alma, so I had the pleasure of visiting their campus more than once. Lots of Northern European-looking kids running around with last names starting with “Van’. Their nickname is based on Dutchmen, not the ship, trust me. Nice enough student body back in my day, much more so than Calvin College. Never saw a more somber and joyless bunch of college students in my life...
   192. Mayor Blomberg Posted: July 07, 2020 at 07:42 PM (#5961598)
Nice enough student body back in my day, much more so than Calvin College.


Old grad school friend teaches here; I'd like to think he livened the place.
   193. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:02 PM (#5961600)
189–. On the age sets I was sharing where the majority opinion was positioned. Over 55 plus 80 percent chance identified by team. Under 35 about 65 percent identified with player or players. In between ages a mix.

190 isn’t wrong. Feeling like you have a say or an influencer has a strong appeal with younger people. Lots of young people want the job of influencer. Crazy but true.

   194. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:08 PM (#5961601)
Just to chime in, I've heard variations of carrying a noose around your neck all my life. I believe, and this is what I've been told and never done a lot of research on, it's roughly analogous to "carrying the weight of the world." When my teachers used it they were referring to Judas, who in some Christian traditions is made to carry the noose he hung himself with through the afterlife so that he is immediately recognizable even amongst other sinners. Someone carrying a noose would be someone who sees themselves as judged and having something to prove.

I believe there's probably a pre-Christian analogue somewhere too, as there always seems to be.
   195. TJ Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:10 PM (#5961603)
Hope so- my initial reaction on my first trip to Calvin is that it must be like going to church every day of the week without a break...

Our conference is the MIAA, which is the epitome of small college life. The first time I took my wife to Alma’s homecoming game a few years ago she asked on the way there if I had ordered tickets. I told her no, we would just buy them at the gate. (My wife is a Univ. of Michigan grad). When we reached campus, we walked over to the gate. The tickets were five bucks each, sold at a folding table, and printed on cardboard stock. My wife asked me if we weren’t worried about counterfeit tickets. My response was that we wished there was enough interest in our sports that someone WOULD counterfeit our tickets...

She loved the experience and now goes with me every year just for the big bags of inexpensive popcorn from the concession stand...
   196. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Fred Posted: July 07, 2020 at 08:42 PM (#5961605)
189–. On the age sets I was sharing where the majority opinion was positioned. Over 55 plus 80 percent chance identified by team. Under 35 about 65 percent identified with player or players. In between ages a mix.

190 isn’t wrong. Feeling like you have a say or an influencer has a strong appeal with younger people. Lots of young people want the job of influencer. Crazy but true.
Why not switch up the unis every few years to get younger folks engaged, but leave team names to retain the older crowd? ie what MLB is doing.

Also, did you look at casual/non-fans at all, or did the numbers you shared include them?
   197. SoSH U at work Posted: July 07, 2020 at 09:35 PM (#5961610)
Our conference is the MIAA, which is the epitome of small college life. The first time I took my wife to Alma’s homecoming game a few years ago she asked on the way there if I had ordered tickets. I told her no, we would just buy them at the gate. (My wife is a Univ. of Michigan grad). When we reached campus, we walked over to the gate. The tickets were five bucks each, sold at a folding table, and printed on cardboard stock. My wife asked me if we weren’t worried about counterfeit tickets. My response was that we wished there was enough interest in our sports that someone WOULD counterfeit our tickets...


My daughter plays DIII soccer. Every game, at every school we've been to, is free. That was a pleasant surprise given every high school game she ever played in charged admission.
   198. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: July 07, 2020 at 09:54 PM (#5961614)
much more so than Calvin College. Never saw a more somber and joyless bunch of college students in my life...


I spent one weekend at Calvin. Went up to visit a friend from high school who went to college there. I crashed in the dorm, borrowed a room from someone who was out of town for the weekend. My friend must have arranged this; I don't remember the details. Anyway, on the inside of the dorm room door, in thick black sharpie, someone had written "PRAY".

Going to sleep that first night, it felt vaguely like a threat.
   199. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 08, 2020 at 12:41 AM (#5961622)
Utah Jazz
It’s like regular jazz, but you can only use 4/4 time.
   200. Howie Menckel Posted: July 08, 2020 at 01:31 AM (#5961625)
and while Minnesota is the Land of 10,000 Lakes, to be fair L.A. has 22. so the plural fits.

Maryland is the lone state without a natural lake, so Baltimore Lakers would have been the fail move.

Alaska has 3 million or so lakes, so Anchorage Lakers would totally work.
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