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Wednesday, July 08, 2009

Crew chief: Umpire told Jeter he was tagged by Rolen in stolen base attempt

Hirschbeck spoke to Foster on Tuesday and got a different version. Here’s what Hirschbeck said Foster told Jeter at the time: “The ball beat you, and I had him tagging you.”

“I don’t see a problem with that,” Hirschbeck said. “Sometimes when tempers flare, you don’t hear everything that’s said.”

Yankees manager Joe Girardi joined the argument with Jeter and was ejected. Hirschbeck, however, said Girardi was tossed for complaining about a call Sunday.

happysky Posted: July 08, 2009 at 06:07 AM | 160 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:54 PM (#3246227)
It seems clear that I've defined ZIP code resolution down to the mailbox level. In any reasonable definition of "point", a mailbox is a point. I have also given multiple cites that state that delivery routes (rural and otherwise) are assigned a ZIP code. In other words, a line.

ZIP Codes are never assigned to huge swaths of land with boundaries, outside which they do not apply, and inside which they apply universally. Nobody has yet given an example of such a situation. There are defacto situations like this, where the set of points and lines can be interpreted as a polygon, but that's just a happy side effect.
   102. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3246233)
And unless you have a good transcript of what was said during the argument, it's hard to claim Foster didn't say something to that effect "You misheard me" "Oh bull ####### ####! You know good and goddammd well you said he didn't have to tag me (him). You are a sorry sack of ####. You ###### up balls and strikes all day yesterday and now you #### this up. If we lose this game by one run, you can bet you won't have heard the last of this!"


The problem is that Jeter didn't say after the game "But then he claimed he didn't say it." That justification magically appeared the next day.
   103. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 07:58 PM (#3246235)
Is there really a lengthy discussion about zip codes going on?
   104. Chris Dial Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:00 PM (#3246240)
The problem is that Jeter didn't say after the game "But then he claimed he didn't say it."
So? Why would Jeter offer information that made it look like he was wrong?
   105. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:03 PM (#3246248)
So? Why would Jeter offer information that made it look like he was wrong?


So now Jeter is being deceptive instead of simply mistaken?
   106. SoSH U at work Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:04 PM (#3246249)
Is there really a lengthy discussion about zip codes going on?


Damn, you must have a lot of people on ignore if you haven't noticed the ZIP code discussion in this very thread. It would otherwise seem impossible to separate the Jeter said/Foster said discussion from the non-Sym ZIPs talk.
   107. villainx Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:06 PM (#3246253)
The idea that Jeter would be confused about what Foster said, both preceding and during a lengthy argument, seems fantastical to me.

Not to me, people misunderstand one other fairly easily.
   108. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:07 PM (#3246260)
That's what stunned me about DMN's observation - Foster shouldn't go off ranting to the media - there's a general policy about these things.
Ranting? How about, "Derek misheard me. Of course the fielder has to tag him. I didn't see him get his hand in there before the tag, so I called him out."
And unless you have a good transcript of what was said during the argument, it's hard to claim Foster didn't say something to that effect "You misheard me" "Oh bull ####### ####! You know good and goddammd well you said he didn't have to tag me (him). You are a sorry sack of ####. You ###### up balls and strikes all day yesterday and now you #### this up. If we lose this game by one run, you can bet you won't have heard the last of this!"
Uh, yeah. Except, well, Jeter's not Milton Bradley.
   109. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:09 PM (#3246265)
It seems clear that I've defined ZIP code resolution down to the mailbox level. In any reasonable definition of "point", a mailbox is a point. I have also given multiple cites that state that delivery routes (rural and otherwise) are assigned a ZIP code. In other words, a line.
Again, I don't understand the "line" thing. The points I understand. But the line is just connecting the points, and doesn't define the zip code at all.
   110. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:10 PM (#3246267)
There are defacto situations like this, where the set of points and lines can be interpreted as a polygon, but that's just a happy side effect.


Is anyone really debating the algorithm by which ZIP codes are created and cataloged? I think the only point anyone might contend is the one you have just ceded. I think that would make it okay to synecdochically refer to the areas containing those points by their ZIP code, in the cases where these defacto areas exist.
   111. Bernal Diaz has an angel on his shoulder Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3246269)
When I lived in Scotch Plains you could use either 07076 or 07090 and the mail would get to my house. That is some ####### crazy ass ####.
   112. Ray (CTL) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3246270)
Damn, you must have a lot of people on ignore if you haven't noticed the ZIP code discussion in this very thread.


I've got nobody on ignore. I didn't say I didn't notice the discussion; I asked if my eyes were deceiving me.
   113. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:11 PM (#3246271)
Again, I don't understand the "line" thing. The points I understand. But the line is just connecting the points, and doesn't define the zip code at all.

It's not necessary to define the ZIP code, but that is how the ZIP code is formally defined. I agree with you, however, that it could just as easily be broken down into points. In practice, the USPS does not do this.
   114. Dr Stankus and the Semicolons Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:14 PM (#3246274)
We can all agree that Area Codes actually are for areas, right?
   115. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:15 PM (#3246278)
We can all agree that Area Codes actually are for areas, right?

I have no dog in that fight. What kind of obsessive-compulsive freak do you think I am?
   116. 185/456(GGC) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:15 PM (#3246280)
Jason Priestly and Luke Perry hate this thread.
   117. Dr Love Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3246286)
We can all agree that Area Codes actually are for areas, right?


Not if you live in a city and have a cell phone.
   118. Sheer Tim Foli Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:17 PM (#3246287)
Fly are Canadian Postal Codes lines or polygons? I looked on Wiki but it didn't say.
   119. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:18 PM (#3246291)
Fly are Canadian Postal Codes lines or polygons? I looked on Wiki but it didn't say.

I'm honestly not sure.
   120. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:19 PM (#3246293)
When I lived in Scotch Plains you could use either 07076 or 07090 and the mail would get to my house. That is some ####### crazy ass ####.
You lived in Scotch Plains? When/where? Because I'm in the town that shares the school district. BTW, I'm betting some 07090 people wouldn't have been happy to see you trying to claim their zip code. Scotch Plains just isn't quite up to Westfield standards.
   121. 185/456(GGC) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:20 PM (#3246295)
We can all agree that Area Codes actually are for areas, right?


They used to be, but soon I'll be living in two area codes at the same time and I'm not Schrodinger's Cat. I know the algorithm for how they used to assign Area Codes, but am not sure how Zip Codes were assigned. I do know that in the Hartford area, they were 06xxx then assigned alphabetically by Post Office, but I have no inkling if that system is USPS-wide.
   122. Handle's Messiah Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:22 PM (#3246302)
You lived in Scotch Plains? When/where? Because I'm in the town that shares the school district. BTW, I'm betting some 07090 people wouldn't have been happy to see you trying to claim their zip code. Scotch Plains just isn't quite up to Westfield standards.


He was a chef at the local Charlie Brown's. As I recall, his end-cut prime rib was quite aerodynamic.
   123. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:32 PM (#3246315)
They used to be, but soon I'll be living in two area codes at the same time
Now there are "overlay" area codes, which share an area with (an)other code(s).

Three digit zips define an area, or at least used to when I worked in a mail room. (Well, except for APO addresses). Zips do not respect political boundaries. My wife lived in the tiny borough of Rockledge, PA but had a 191xx zip, which is the "Philadelphia" zip.

I grew up outside of Norristown, PA which had zips of 19401 and 19403. Most of 19403 was in Whitpain township. Norristown is a very beaten up town, so at some point in the 80s, the folks who lived in the Whitpain part of Norristown, PA 19403 petitioned to be changed to Blue Bell, PA 19422. Blue Bell (in the middle of Whitpain) had grown from a sleepy crossroads to an enviable suburb. The petition was granted and the zip code changed. Insurance rates dropped and presumably real estate prices were enhanced.
   124. 185/456(GGC) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:38 PM (#3246325)
Zips do not respect political boundaries.


Right. I once lived in a section of a town that was serviced by another town's post office. My mom still lives there, but they changed the Zip code. Unfortunately, this meant that some checks from my father's pension plan weren't being delivered to her and she had no idea that they were being mailed out.
   125. Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:41 PM (#3246334)
Chris,

I could be wrong, but I believe that anecdote was said regarding Ted Williams.


I thought it was attributed to an umpire talking about Al Kaline, in either "Ball Four", or Bill Lee's book.

"Son, Mister Kaline will let you know when you throw a strike by doubling off the right center field wall."
   126. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:41 PM (#3246335)
Zips do not respect political boundaries. My wife lived in the tiny borough of Rockledge, PA but had a 191xx zip, which is the "Philadelphia" zip.
Yep; my father lives in Columbia, 21043-45, but has a Clarksville zip, 21029. Which causes a lot of people to mistakenly think he lives in Clarksville, which is not the case. That's just his mailing address.
   127. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3246337)
He was a chef at the local Charlie Brown's. As I recall, his end-cut prime rib was quite aerodynamic.
Is he the one who burned the Charlie Brown's down?
   128. Nasty Nate Posted: July 08, 2009 at 08:50 PM (#3246346)
When I lived in Scotch Plains you could use either 07076 or 07090 and the mail would get to my house. That is some ####### crazy ass ####.


holy ####### ####, is that really ####### true? Jesus H. ########!
   129. Harris Posted: July 08, 2009 at 09:02 PM (#3246360)
Uh, yeah. Except, well, Jeter's not Milton Bradley.


I'll put letters onto Dial's keyboard for him.

"Oh really? Have you met Derek Jeter and Milton Bradley, personally? Do you really know how they both act, or just how the media portrays them?"
   130. Jeff K. Posted: July 08, 2009 at 10:31 PM (#3246495)
No. Look at a ZIP code. Those are numeric digits you're looking at. You are interpreting those digits as mathematical constructs, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that they are what they are: digits. Furthermore, your interpretation is imprecise. If you really want to go there, a ZIP code actually references a finite list of addresses, i.e. points. There are no lines in a ZIP code.

If you want to take the literal approach to its extreme, you could go so far as to say that the digits (as digitally represented or in print) are themselves constructed of points and lines, but it wouldn't invalidate the fact that ZIP codes consist of numeric digits.


That last paragraph there, that's exactly what I meant. You misunderstand me in the first. ZIP codes are digits, digits are written with lines and areas. A 7 is two lines, three if you're some commie European. I was exactly taking the literal approach to its extreme hoping that the two of you would shut up about it before some big ZIP code thread started. I see I failed. As did the parents of every person in here.
   131. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 08, 2009 at 10:40 PM (#3246502)
What happened in the Jeter/Foster situation to me is just another in a series of indicators over the last few years that the overall quality of umpiring is slipping. I have noticed an increased level of confrontational behavior, erratic strike zones and slipshod handling of rules.

It's troubling.
   132. Lassus Posted: July 08, 2009 at 10:40 PM (#3246503)
Allow me to say I find the discussion about zip codes to be about 100,000 times more interesting than the one about pro basketball.
   133. Lord Finesse Posted: July 08, 2009 at 10:41 PM (#3246504)
I got hoes in different area codes.
   134. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 08, 2009 at 11:46 PM (#3246576)
Area codes used to be assigned to well-defined geographic areas. When an area ran out of numbers, what the FCC used to do was split the area into multiple zones and move a whole bunch of numbers from one area code to another. However, with the explosion of cell-phone usage and dedicated fax and data lines in the late 90s, area code splits become more and more frequent and were costing businesses a LOT of money - changing business cards, Web sites, letterheads, and the like - and the availability of better switching technology allowed the FCC to go to an overlay approach, where existing users would keep their existing area code and new users in the same geographic area would get a new area code.

-- MWE
   135. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: July 09, 2009 at 06:39 AM (#3246947)
Harris FTW.

But, anyway, I'm not sure the zip code thing is in the Top 5 of Fly's quirkiest quirks. Well, Top 5 maybe. Not sure about Top 3.
   136. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: July 09, 2009 at 06:41 AM (#3246948)
What if we assigned zip codes to email addresses?
   137. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: July 09, 2009 at 06:43 AM (#3246951)
my father lives in Columbia, 21043-45, but has a Clarksville zip, 21029. Which causes a lot of people to mistakenly think he lives in Clarksville, which is not the case.

That must suck for them when they try to meet him at the station.
   138. Jeff K. Posted: July 09, 2009 at 06:44 AM (#3246953)
What if we assigned zip codes to email addresses?

We kind of do. Why wouldn't the IP of the mail server be exactly analogous to the ZIP code for a regular mailbox?
   139. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: July 09, 2009 at 06:50 AM (#3246955)
Why wouldn't the IP of the mail server be exactly analogous to the ZIP code for a regular mailbox?

Because there are limits to even our pedantry.
   140. Dr. Vaux Posted: July 09, 2009 at 08:05 AM (#3246959)
Most of 19403 was in Whitpain township. Norristown is a very beaten up town, so at some point in the 80s, the folks who lived in the Whitpain part of Norristown, PA 19403 petitioned to be changed to Blue Bell, PA 19422. Blue Bell (in the middle of Whitpain) had grown from a sleepy crossroads to an enviable suburb. The petition was granted and the zip code changed. Insurance rates dropped and presumably real estate prices were enhanced.


That's shouldn't be allowed. If he's yours when the sun's shining, he's yours when it's raining.
   141. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: July 09, 2009 at 09:24 AM (#3246967)
What the hell???????
   142. OCD SS Posted: July 09, 2009 at 12:07 PM (#3246990)
Separately, this one is going to quietly die out. None of the parties involved can benefit from continuing the issue.


Or not.
   143. 185/456(GGC) Posted: December 09, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4320378)
Wow, this thread hasn't been {/if'd} and it is over three years old.
   144. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 09, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4320408)
Well, if this is still July 9, 2009, I'm activating Jeff Niemann, Bronson Arroyo, and the great Brett Cecil to my fantasy team's starting squad. And maybe Jonathan Sanchez, too-- I can't put my finger on it, but I just have a gut feeling that he's due to pitch a little better than his 2-8 record would indicate. I'll check next week to see how they did, as soon as I get back from my vacation on Caspian Airlines Flight 7908.
   145. Jim Wisinski Posted: December 09, 2012 at 05:56 PM (#4320412)
What a bizarre discussion there was in this thread.

Zips do not respect political boundaries.


Once I had someone trying to mail me something and he said that the lady at the post office refused to let him mail it with the address he wrote down on it. The issue was that my address was in Seminole, the city I lived in, but when she entered the zip code into the computer it came up as Largo (the city most of the zip code covered) and she decided that was a huge problem.
   146. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: December 09, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4320438)
Thank you GGC. This is one of my all-time favorite threads on this site.
   147. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 24, 2020 at 04:27 PM (#5953270)
From the User Profile for “Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!!”
Last Visit May 24, 2020 03:38 PM
He’s here.
   148. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: May 24, 2020 at 06:11 PM (#5953282)
OK, I have to ask why you checked in on this YC.
   149. The Yankee Clapper Posted: May 24, 2020 at 06:27 PM (#5953286)
It was linked in the “We Can Show Baseball Reruns” thread, where someone had asked about it. Re-reading the thread brought Fly to mind, so I checked on his status since it had been a long time since I recalled seeing a post from him. I was surprised to see he was logged on, perhaps hanging out in the Lounge or some other obscure BBTF area, and that this thread was still open for comments. Seemed worthy of a pandemic bump.
   150. Jose Needs an Absurd Ukulele Concert Posted: May 24, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5953292)
Ah, that makes sense. I haven’t read that thread much but at least it makes sense rather than some kind of bizarre obsession.
   151. Howie Menckel Posted: May 24, 2020 at 08:38 PM (#5953300)
That must suck for them when they try to meet him at the station.

it took 11 years, but still I will right the wrong of this Clarksville joke going unacknowledged.

reason enough to have opened the thread!
   152. flournoy Posted: May 24, 2020 at 11:44 PM (#5953316)
I've actually had a "ZIP codes don't work like that," "What?" "Never mind," conversation in real life.
   153. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 25, 2020 at 01:36 AM (#5953318)
I stand by my contribution to this thread.
   154. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 26, 2020 at 01:48 PM (#5953583)
Wonderful flashback here. Very surprised that no one at the time noted the immemorial "ball beats runner, runner out" justification which umpires had always used for calling attempted steals. Joe Garagiola used to cite this regularly on the Game of the Week back in the 60s whenever a base stealer obviously reached the bag with his hand before the fielder got the tag down on his butt.

But to get in an anecdote pertaining to the main subject of the thread: In the early 80s I had a temp job in the Employee Benefits department at Equitable Life. We had a major project mailing out forms to current and former employees all around the country. One piece of mail had the correct name, correct street address, correct town, correct zip code, but somehow the wrong state. Post Office returned it as undeliverable.

Seems to me, if you've got the street address and the zip, the town and state are sort of superfluous information in just about all cases, aren't they?
   155. Itchy Row Posted: May 26, 2020 at 01:59 PM (#5953588)
I was hoping for a new article about a controversial play in a World Series I'd forgotten about between the Yankees and one of Rolen's teams.
   156. flournoy Posted: May 26, 2020 at 02:38 PM (#5953600)
One piece of mail had the correct name, correct street address, correct town, correct zip code, but somehow the wrong state. Post Office returned it as undeliverable.

Seems to me, if you've got the street address and the zip, the town and state are sort of superfluous information in just about all cases, aren't they?


Most likely they noted the mismatch between state and ZIP code, and didn't bother investigating further to determine which was incorrect. If you had simply omitted the state instead of putting an incorrect one, it probably would have been delivered without issue.
   157. Zach Posted: May 26, 2020 at 08:16 PM (#5953700)
We can all agree that Area Codes actually are for areas, right?

Not if you live in a city and have a cell phone.


Depends. Are we using Riemann or Lebesgue integration?
   158. Howie Menckel Posted: May 26, 2020 at 08:34 PM (#5953702)
Seems to me, if you've got the street address and the zip, the town and state are sort of superfluous information in just about all cases, aren't they?


this was the topic of one of those nutty curmudgeon Andy Rooney rants to close out 60 minutes episodes oh, 30 or 40 years ago.

he was angry, iirc, that he had to fill out the town and state. I think he even showed receiving mail with just the street address and zip code on the letters.
   159. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: May 26, 2020 at 09:19 PM (#5953712)

In the UK, you don't even really need the street address. At least, Google Maps doesn't. I guess you need to write the flat number, but that's it.

Maybe postal codes cover a wider area outside of major cities, but that's how it worked in London.
   160. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 27, 2020 at 11:48 AM (#5953807)
Crappity, now I'm being Andy F Rooney? Oy!

I wasn't curmudgeoning, honest. I was just puzzled at the time (and still) because this was a mass mailing of pre-printed forms; I was under the impression that even back in those dark ages such items were scanned and sorted by machines and wouldn't have been examined by a humid bean until they went to the actual delivery person.
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