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Friday, July 19, 2019

Deadspin: Baseball Writer Jonah Keri Arrested, Charged With Assault On His Wife

Baseball writer Jonah Keri, who works for The Athletic, Sportsnet, and DraftKings, was arrested Thursday and charged after an alleged assault on his wife, as reported today by CTV Montreal.

Keri faces three counts of assault as well as one count of uttering death threats. He appeared in court today and was granted bail but was told to stay 250 meters from his wife, not have any weapons, and to remove his possessions from their house within 10 days.

The three counts appear to be for separate incidents in July 2018, May 2019, and July 2019, according to the report. The couple married in July 2018…

Keri’s lawyer Louis Morena also provided a statement:

“Death threats are sometimes said in a moment of anger especially when there’s an emotional situation of divorce and you’re seeing your family go down the drain,”

Jesus ####### Christ!

The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: July 19, 2019 at 03:01 PM | 271 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: holy &^%, jonah keri, the athletic

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   101. Omineca Greg Posted: July 20, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5863510)
I actually wrote a story about that Tongan dude (under an assumed identity even!). I really liked it, touched on a lot of issues that were on my mind, but it especially juggled national and sexual identity, and the similarity of militant patriotism with sexual ecstasy. It's way too weird for this context though. So forget it.
   102. Howie Menckel Posted: July 20, 2019 at 06:38 PM (#5863511)
bump
   103. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2019 at 07:01 PM (#5863518)
I used to post on OTP, but it should have been moved off-site about five years before it was and this thread, although it has been relatively civil, shows one of the reasons why that is the case.

If OTP had been this civil, it would never have needed to be banned; and I agree with you it should have been killed long before it was.

We should be able to disagree with each other, even on the most sensitive topics, without descending into invective and calumny.
   104. Srul Itza Posted: July 20, 2019 at 09:17 PM (#5863538)
You want context?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
   105. DJS Thinks Apples and Oranges are Similar Posted: July 21, 2019 at 01:59 AM (#5863565)
I would imagine it's embarrassment. They're afraid they'll be laughed at.

My better half has a long-term personal challenge to try and knock me over. She'll sometimes try it in public if she thinks I'm not paying attention. I'm literally twice her weight and most of her attempts suggest that she doesn't know physics very well. Especially when she's drunk because she seems to imagine she's an NFL linebacker in those situations.

We get odd looks in public sometimes.
   106. . Posted: July 21, 2019 at 06:47 AM (#5863570)
If OTP had been this civil, it would never have needed to be banned; and I agree with you it should have been killed long before it was.


Not really. Virtually all of the complaints about OTP had their ultimate source in the woke not being able to abide the expression of non-woke opinion. (*) It had nothing to do with "tone" or "civility."

(*) And so it is with this thread.
   107. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 21, 2019 at 07:32 AM (#5863571)
My better half has a long-term personal challenge to try and knock me over. She'll sometimes try it in public if she thinks I'm not paying attention. I'm literally twice her weight and most of her attempts suggest that she doesn't know physics very well. Especially when she's drunk because she seems to imagine she's an NFL linebacker in those situations.

We get odd looks in public sometimes


The well-placed banana peel might do the trick is what I’m thinking.
   108. bob gee Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:57 AM (#5863574)
I just so hope this isn't true, but assume it is because of his lawyer's comments and multiple instances cited.

I hope that his current wife, former wife, and his kids all get as much therapy as they need. Am assuming that if there was DV against the current wife, there was with the former as well. I know a family split because of DV, I don't think he was ever formally charged. There were TROs later, but that was after the split.

And yeah, it happens the other way around. My wife's friend was the victim of his (much shorter, less weight) former wife. He never hit back because he was raised to never hit a female. They eventually split, he was young enough to bounce back from it.


   109. Banta Posted: July 21, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5863575)
No one will ever see this post.


It was my favorite post of the page!

So, everyone should be treated fairly and what's a crime for one gender should be a crime for all. But, like other issues between marginally different types of human beings, there are systematic, historical, biological, and cultural backgrounds that create biases. Each issue should be tackled individually.

Mostly though, men should shut up about feeling that they are being discriminated against by women. I mean, seriously, what a bunch of pussies, stop acting like #######!

...
   110. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5863576)
Not really. Virtually all of the complaints about OTP had their ultimate source in the woke not being able to abide the expression of non-woke opinion. (*) It had nothing to do with "tone" or "civility."

Whatever. If a small handful of posters had been able to remain civil, the thread would have remained.
   111. . Posted: July 21, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5863588)
If a small handful of posters had been able to remain civil, the thread would have remained.


And if a chicken had lips it could kiss a toad -- if only the toad had lips.

They couldn't remain civil because they can't abide the expression of non-woke opinion. It's no more complicated than that.
   112. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5863595)
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."


I came here to post this.

There are few things more clownishly stupid than the boo hooing of men's rights dopes. Further proof, I guess, that the internet is a place where any buffoon can find a place to be the victim of his own story.
   113. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5863599)
Keri's Twitter feed and personal website have been deleted. LinkedIn and Facebook still there.
   114. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 02:33 PM (#5863602)
There are few things more clownishly stupid than the boo hooing of men's rights dopes. Further proof, I guess, that the internet is a place where any buffoon can find a place to be the victim of his own story.

The sad thing is that they have some legitimate points in narrow areas (like family courts), but that's never heard because of the general foolishness.
   115. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 03:48 PM (#5863619)
This has been an...interesting thread.

I have no experience with the courts in these matters, but while their may be aspects of the system that are biased against men, it’s hard to believe that about the overall system. I mean, read Jared Remy’s Wikipedia page — the guy literally had to murder his fiancée before he went to prison.

I will say, in terms of why men don’t report domestic violence as often as women, I think it gets into the power dynamic that others mention above. Based on a couple of women I have known who were victims of DV, they did not do anything about the incidents until they legitimately feared for their lives. And even then, they did not report it to the police, but it was only at that point where they told family members or friends and got themselves out of the situation. And that point of fear is much more likely to be reached by a woman being abused by a man than the other way around.

Whether you’re a man or a woman, your partner is often someone who is an integral part of your family and social circle; you have the same friends, you may have children together, you may be dependent on them financially. I think there’s often a desire to try to “protect” the kids by not making something like this public (I’ve seen this even when the kids are fully grown and out of the house), or to not want to be seen as a victim by friends and family, however irrational all of that may sound.

   116. . Posted: July 21, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5863632)
I have no experience with the courts in these matters, but while their may be aspects of the system that are biased against men, it’s hard to believe that about the overall system. I mean, read Jared Remy’s Wikipedia page — the guy literally had to murder his fiancée before he went to prison.


Then why not just leave it at that? I mean, you're essentially right, so why try to come up with an overarching theory that covers the entire system? Sometimes men get screwed by the system, sometimes women get screwed by the system. On balance, it's less fair to women -- but not always. It's not a perfect system and perfection is a highly unreasonable expectation. When perfection is insisted upon, it often lurches into fanaticism -- particularly when the imperfection is wrongly perceived as unidirectional.

My theory continues to be the McLuhan-ian one wherein 21st century modes of communication are driving the messages people send through those communications modes. There's little question that social media/message board culture is radicalizing.
   117. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 21, 2019 at 04:47 PM (#5863635)
Then why not just leave it at that? I mean, you're essentially right, so why try to come up with an overarching theory that covers the entire system

Huh? I did “leave it at that”. I didn’t try to come up with any overarching theory about the system.
   118. . . . . . . Posted: July 21, 2019 at 05:36 PM (#5863645)
I think it is reasonable to acknowledge that the family courts are strongly (and anachronistically) biased against men while simultaneously agreeing that in virtually every other respect women get the short end of the stick.

Also, don’t hit women. You’re much stronger than they are.
   119. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: July 21, 2019 at 06:04 PM (#5863647)
Also, don’t hit women.


ALL lives matter, hippies.
   120. . Posted: July 21, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5863648)
Huh? I did “leave it at that”. I didn’t try to come up with any overarching theory about the system.


True. The comment was addressed to the crowd in general.

The home plate umpire in the Giants-Mets game is ####### putrid. Bring on the robots.

Oh, and speaking of the Giants and internet excess, where are all the people who insisted a couple months ago that Farhan Zaidi inherited a terrible team and a terrible farm system?
   121. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 21, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5863660)
why try to come up with an overarching theory that covers the entire system?
Ahem...
My theory continues to be the McLuhan-ian one wherein 21st century modes of communication are driving the messages people send through those communications modes.
   122. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: July 22, 2019 at 08:37 AM (#5863691)
I think it is reasonable to acknowledge that the family courts are strongly (and anachronistically) biased against men while simultaneously agreeing that in virtually every other respect women get the short end of the stick.


How often do splits actually necessitate family court involvement and decision-making? That's an honest question - and I don't know the answer...

One of my best friends got delivered a shock of the lifetime earlier this year - his wife confessed that she'd been carrying on affair with her boss for nearly a year (they've got 3 kids, roughly the same age as the ones involved in Keri's situation). He'd left a startup on her request, then another lucrative job for one with 9-5 hours. He'd moved with her after they were married so she could attend the masters program she wanted. He'd even taken care of her entire family when they were engaged (her father was murdered in a horrific event I won't go into). He was a doting father and husband - while she was carrying on the affair, he'd noticed "something" was up and he was the one who sought out a marriage counselor.

In short, it's hard to imagine anyone more screwed over - and while it wouldn't excuse it, more reaching the level of "well, I can understand - though not excuse - some awful threats"...

Yet - he was very clear with our circle of friends, especially those with kids, to ask that they watch what they say about his ex-wife, especially around the kids. They worked out the divorce and a shared custody agreement without the courts. They're arbitrating some financials - particularly, retirement accounts - but in short, this would seem like it had all the fixings of a very messy split and custody battle.

I'm just honestly not sure - but solely from this anecdotal experience, it seems like the sort of perfect storm that would lead to a highly acrimonious family court battle... yet it hasn't. Indeed, they're even (~6 months later) seeing a family counselor together for no other reason than for the good of the kids in order to co-parent through the inevitable messiness that comes up.
   123. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:06 AM (#5863703)
One of my best friends got delivered a shock of the lifetime earlier this year - his wife confessed that she'd been carrying on affair with her boss for nearly a year (they've got 3 kids, roughly the same age as the ones involved in Keri's situation). He'd left a startup on her request, then another lucrative job for one with 9-5 hours. He'd moved with her after they were married so she could attend the masters program she wanted. He'd even taken care of her entire family when they were engaged (her father was murdered in a horrific event I won't go into). He was a doting father and husband - while she was carrying on the affair, he'd noticed "something" was up and he was the one who sought out a marriage counselor.

In short, it's hard to imagine anyone more screwed over - and while it wouldn't excuse it, more reaching the level of "well, I can understand - though not excuse - some awful threats"...

Yet - he was very clear with our circle of friends, especially those with kids, to ask that they watch what they say about his ex-wife, especially around the kids. They worked out the divorce and a shared custody agreement without the courts. They're arbitrating some financials - particularly, retirement accounts - but in short, this would seem like it had all the fixings of a very messy split and custody battle.

I'm just honestly not sure - but solely from this anecdotal experience, it seems like the sort of perfect storm that would lead to a highly acrimonious family court battle... yet it hasn't. Indeed, they're even (~6 months later) seeing a family counselor together for no other reason than for the good of the kids in order to co-parent through the inevitable messiness that comes up.


Oh hell no. If I were him, I'd go full scorched earth.

This is where the "no fault" system is screwed up. Your friend should get full custody (if he wants it) and she should be paying him to support the kids. Plus he should get a disproportionate share of marital assets, since it is completely her fault. 75:25 would be fair.
   124. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:19 AM (#5863705)
Not to speak for Zonk's friend but: I think it's key to think of things as not being about fault (irrespective of the legal system and setting aside our lack of insight as to what else might be going on) or about fair. Like, you could go scorched earth, but is that the best outcome for the kids? Odds are no, for a variety of reasons.
   125. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:20 AM (#5863706)
Oh hell no. If I were him, I'd go full scorched earth.

In this situation unfortunately, that's also a scorched child strategy.
   126. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:22 AM (#5863708)
I sign on to 124/25.
   127. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:25 AM (#5863710)
Mine was pithier.
   128. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:26 AM (#5863711)
In this situation unfortunately, that's also a scorched child strategy.

Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know that I've ever seen any studies that contentious divorces are any worse for the kids than civil ones. And having a lying, cheating parent in your live is no bargain. Psychologically, 100% custody might well be easier on kids than being bounced back and forth.

I'm positive my two nephews are much better off that their father has basically disappeared from their lives (sees them maybe once or twice a year) than if he was around to expose them to his dysfunction every week.

Not to speak for Zonk's friend but: I think it's key to think of things as not being about fault (irrespective of the legal system and setting aside our lack of insight as to what else might be going on) or about fair. Like, you could go scorched earth, but is that the best outcome for the kids? Odds are no, for a variety of reasons.

Yeah, I'm all about fairness. It's my bugaboo.

   129. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:28 AM (#5863713)
His perspective, though - was the kids... Only the oldest (9 yo) really has an inkling what's going on - but he had a really rough go of it. The 3 yo is just confused - and the youngest (under a year) won't even remember them being together.

He is getting the house - though, it was a home with a mortgage predicated on their two-income household (well within their combined income comfort range, but a stretch on his income alone).

IAC, though - we (his friends, which actually includes his now former sister-in-law, she's barely on speaking terms with her sister/his ex- any more) certainly counseled him to retain an attorney to ensure he doesn't get screwed, and he has been talking with one throughout.

But ultimately, for him - it just came down to three kids and what would be best for them... money spent litigating is money that isn't going into college funds and the like... and any scorched earth is earth the kids are inevitably going to have to spend some time on.

Obviously, at some point - the kids are going to learn the ugly details about why mom and dad split...

EDIT: Cokes above... but yeah - that was his perspective. He's limited his complaints to beers with friends and taken a kids first perspective outside of that.
   130. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:33 AM (#5863715)
I suppose it's possible for a couple to have a highly acrimonious family court battle but have it be mostly hidden from the kids, and to remain respectful in person. Seems like a tough thing to pull off. But I don't think you need a study to know that families that present their children with a model of discord and acrimony are creating a poisonous emotional environment for them.

I'm positive my two nephews are much better off that their father has basically disappeared from their lives (sees them maybe once or twice a year) than if he was around to expose them to his dysfunction every week.

Actually a slightly different situation here. This guy sounds like he's just a bad guy. But the lady from Zonk's story might be a terrific mom in every other way.
   131. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:36 AM (#5863717)
To be clear, I'm not saying that Zonk's bud is doing the right thing. I got no clue. I think it's admirable to think about what's best for the kids more so than what's "fair." But his ex-wife could be a terrible person and could easily be taking advantage of his meekness and good intentions yet again. Maybe he'd be right to sock it to her in court. (The fact that she's not on speaking terms with her own sister is a red flag IMO)
   132. Lassus Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:39 AM (#5863719)
But the lady from Zonk's story might be a terrific mom in every other way.

And reliability of narration, twice over, would also play into it. None of us know of Zonk's friend's interaction with his wife over the years, and I highly doubt even Zonk's been told all of it.
   133. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5863720)
I suppose it's possible for a couple to have a highly acrimonious family court battle but have it be mostly hidden from the kids, and to remain respectful in person. Seems like a tough thing to pull off. But I don't think you need a study to know that families that present their children with a model of discord and acrimony are creating a poisonous emotional environment for them.

I'm not saying scream and throw things, and the kids will be kept out of court proceedings. I don't think that the kids knowing that their mother did something really bad (the details can wait) is poisonous. I don't think pretending everyone is happy happy joy joy about the split is good for the kids either.

Actually a slightly different situation here. This guy sounds like he's just a bad guy. But the lady from Zonk's story might be a terrific mom in every other way.

He's a bad guy because he's a serial cheater and prioritizes his sexual pleasure over his kids. Sounds just like this woman. A "good mom" doesn't jeopardize her family in this way.

And reliability of narration, twice over, would also play into it. None of us know of Zonk's friend's interaction with his wife over the years, and I highly doubt even Zonk's been told all of it.

Obviously I'm reacting to the facts as given. Different facts would change my conclusion.


   134. Lassus Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:42 AM (#5863721)
I don't mean that as a dig on anyone, even Zonk.
   135. Lassus Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:44 AM (#5863723)
Sounds just like this woman. A "good mom" doesn't jeopardize her family in this way.

A parent who dislikes their spouse, regardless of the reason, is worse for children than one who leaves but remains a parent.

EDIT: I understand the statistics about single parents, but none of those statistics take into account angry, miserable adults who remain together.
   136. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5863726)
A "good mom" doesn't jeopardize her family in this way.

Sometimes good people have flaws.

Also, although she's been manipulating her husband, there's no indication that she's been ignoring the kids in any important way.
   137. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5863727)
I think it's admirable to think about what's best for the kids more so than what's "fair."

Right, the important question is “fair to whom?” Fairness, or what’s best, for the children should be the most important principle there. Custody isn’t an asset that should be apportioned based on the culpability of the divorced parties.
   138. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 22, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5863729)
127/PF: It was.

Yeah, I'm all about fairness. It's my bugaboo.
I just got back from visiting a friend with the same bugaboo - you two actually remind me of each other a tiny bit (if you were a volatile/tempermental liberal from a different religious background). When he and his ex split, he wanted to go scorched earth but didn't because, again, kids.
(By contrast, I love the idea of fairness, but find it very hard for people to bridge their differing viewpoints on what fair or just means and that this is sometimes detrimental to broader goals. Drives my buddy crazy when we debate stuff.)
   139. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: July 22, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5863730)
And reliability of narration, twice over, would also play into it. None of us know of Zonk's friend's interaction with his wife over the years, and I highly doubt even Zonk's been told all of it.


Sometimes good people have flaws.

Also, although she's been manipulating her husband, there's no indication that she's been ignoring the kids in any important way.

True... but he's genuinely the person I would consider the "best" of my friends. In college, he was always the 'responsible' one - but not a scold by any means. He'd certainly taken a true 50/50 split in childcare and domestic chores - I've been on trips and over to their place countless times and he's usually the one cleaning up afterwards, just as likely to change the diapers, etc.

I know her family pretty well - indeed, dated one of her other sisters (she's got three) - the sister-in-law I noted above lives on the same block and she and her husband have also become part of our group of friends over the last decade or so. Their kids are close - they shared "date night" schedules and such. FWIW, the youngest sister is also on "barely speaking" terms.

But in any case, PF is correct - I wouldn't say that she's a "bad mom"... she's not neglectful or otherwise unfit. My personal perspective is that she tends to get a bit.... overwhelmed.... and he's always picked up a lot of slack.

However, "we don't know" swings both ways -- when he recounted the split and the affair, suddenly, there were a lot of instances where he'd take the kids bowling or we'd go to the beach or just have a BBQ and we'd be asking where's [the ex]? And he'd say that she's not feeling well or she's got some work to do... or in a couple instances - "she's got a big presentation" with her boss and left a day early so she didn't need to travel day of.

IOW - it seems painfully obvious that a lot of what were assumed to be legitimate work and/or "she's tired" instances were almost certainly.... not that.
   140. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 22, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5863731)
Yeah, I'm all about fairness. It's my bugaboo.


Fairness and vengeance are not the same thing.
   141. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: July 22, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5863734)
IAC, though - my point was less to saint a friend none of you will likely ever meet (unless - he's started dating again and if you know a middle-aged single lady in the Chicago area, I'd highly recommend him) but more the perspective on "if there are kids involved..." then I think what's best for the kids become paramount.

I think that goes for both action and REaction.
   142. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 22, 2019 at 10:31 AM (#5863748)
Zonk: of course.
   143. pikepredator Posted: July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM (#5863763)
Oh hell no. If I were him, I'd go full scorched earth.


Not to speak for Zonk's friend but: I think it's key to think of things as not being about fault (irrespective of the legal system and setting aside our lack of insight as to what else might be going on) or about fair. Like, you could go scorched earth, but is that the best outcome for the kids? Odds are no, for a variety of reasons.


What's best for me, what's gonna make me a healthy and strong human being and thus an excellent father - that's a big part of what's best for the kids.

I'm finishing up a divorce now (from a wife who is "at-fault" in a no-fault state - cheated on me repeatedly while I was traveling for work in my job as the sole wager earner, was relentless in her neglect of me - I'd come home at midnight from a work trip to a dark house, not even the porch light would be left on to welcome me) it's not just about whether the kids are insulated from the scorched-earth attack some of my friends suggested she "deserved". It's also about my own mind-set.

If I choose to spend months of my time and thousands of dollars on lawyers fighting to get what I think is "fair" or worse, to try and "get even", that's not something that will help my own mental state - I don't thrive under negative emotions. By instead working to move on from what happened, to heal myself, to grow from this experience, I'm in a great place both mentally and emotionally to support my kids. My son elected to live with me full-time, and my daughter is with me Sun-Wed.

Getting vengeance may be satisfaction for some; I subscribe to "living well is the best revenge". I choose forgiveness (but not forgetfulness) and pour my energy into my own healing and growth. Scorched-earth just perpetuates (for me) the kind of negative emotions that led to the demise of the marriage; I have no interest in spending more of my energy on negative emotions. It would only hold me back.

As a result, my kids and my relationship has never been stronger, and they're thriving.
   144. The Good Face Posted: July 22, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5863777)
In my interactions with Jonah here I found him to be an arrogant, intolerant ass. Of course, that describes roughly half the people on the internet if you disagree with them, so is probably lacking in predictive power. Still, I can't say I find these allegations shocking.
   145. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5863778)
Fairness and vengeance are not the same thing.

Sometimes fairness requires a certain level of pay-back. It's not vengeance to suggest that the person who blows up a marriage through their own selfishness should suffer some penalty in the division of assets. It's also not vengeance to suggest that the person who put his or her affair ahead of his or her family is probably not the best person to be raising the kids.
   146. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: July 22, 2019 at 11:27 AM (#5863784)
I went through a similar divorce as [143] a few years ago. I am very happy that I didn't devote the money and emotional energy on battling it out in the courts. Most importantly, doing the divorce "amicably" has spared my daughters some of the grief.

Getting vengeance may be satisfaction for some; I subscribe to "living well is the best revenge". I choose forgiveness (but not forgetfulness) and pour my energy into my own healing and growth. Scorched-earth just perpetuates (for me) the kind of negative emotions that led to the demise of the marriage; I have no interest in spending more of my energy on negative emotions. It would only hold me back.

QFT
   147. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: July 22, 2019 at 11:34 AM (#5863787)
To be clear, I'm also a divorced dad (as of 5-6 years ago), opted not to go scorched earth / pursued (and got) 50-50 custody, and work very hard to be as collaborative as possible (both during the split and subsequently).

--

What's best for me, what's gonna make me a healthy and strong human being and thus an excellent father - that's a big part of what's best for the kids.

This is both true and something that I'd initially both accepted and underestimated.

--

On the Keri story... something I couldn't help but think about while reading the comments, particularly the Crews stuff, is the notion of toxic masculinity and how there's a misconception for some that it's solely about how it's damaging to women. It's harmful to everyone and can lead to waiving away or ignoring instances when men are attacked by their partners or others --- or minimizing the need for men to be nurturers in a family context / potentially their ability to be a primary caregiver to children in a family court situation, or what have you. (On balance, it's more damaging to women, for reasons that are self-evident, but this is all tied together.)
   148. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5863804)
147 is a really good post
   149. JAHV Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM (#5863809)
But the lady from Zonk's story might be a terrific mom in every other way.


It's so hard to imagine a woman so selfish as to completely destroy her marriage and her family by having an affair could also be a "terrific mom" in any way. Raising children in a healthy way requires constant sacrifice of personal desires and should involve complete trust and interdependence on your spouse. Adultery blows up the foundation of the whole thing.

I have no idea what I would do in a situation like this. I hate adultery so much. Even though I think going through divorce and custody proceedings in a relatively amicable way and finding some sort of co-parenting arrangement is PROBABLY in the best interest of the kids (depending on facts and circumstances, of course), I don't think I'd want my adulterous ex-wife to have anything to do with our three boys, even though I know that fighting for full custody would most likely be a long and contentious (not to mention expensive) legal battle. At the end of that, would "justice" be done if I got full custody but am so emotionally and financially spent that I can't take proper care of the children I now have to raise alone? Would the battle, some of which would have to trickle down to the kids, leave wounds on them much less likely to heal than those left by a more compromising split? I hope I never have to answer these questions.
   150. bunyon Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5863818)
Do you guys (Snapper and JAHV) think fathers who cheat should have no custody?

You have to balance the adult-adult relationship with the adult-child. Going scorched earth is what every cheated on partner wants. No one is happy about it. But doing that at the expense of the adult-child relationships is self-defeating. As would be simply ignoring it and letting the cheater continue on with no breakup of the adult-adult relationship.

As women were expected to do for most of history. And even still today.
   151. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5863822)
149--Kids are both really stupid and really smart. When it comes to the mom and dad dynamic kids almost always figure out what is and is not happening. Meanwhile they don't realize parents get the bill so know that someone ordered four movies from Prime at $10 a pop
   152. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:43 PM (#5863825)
It's so hard to imagine a woman so selfish as to completely destroy her marriage and her family by having an affair could also be a "terrific mom" in any way.

It's not that hard for me to imagine. People here seem naive about the amount of infidelity that goes on out there, even though this thread should show that it's not that uncommon. By no means am I saying it's ok, but I have friends whose parents have cheated, friends who were cheated on, and a couple of close friends/colleagues who cheated on their wives. It's hard not to be judgmental, but I know that most of them are great parents even if they are not perfect parents. (And there are a ton of crappy parents out there who stay faithful.)

Especially in a situation where one spouse is routinely traveling for work for days at a time, getting home late, etc. is it so hard to imagine that the kids might be better off with the other spouse at least having joint custody? Even if he/she isn't perfect. (Again, I'm not judging anyone's fitness as a parent here -- that was my work schedule for many years and it's my wife's schedule now.)
   153. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5863833)
People here seem naive about the amount of infidelity that goes on out there, even though this thread should show that it's not that uncommon. I think I posted once before on how the now easy to get DNA tests are blowing up families in the midwest. Folks should stick to finding out if the dog is purebred lab. Finding out that mom slept with some other guy is too much for a lot of people apparently
   154. JAHV Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:01 PM (#5863848)
Do you guys (Snapper and JAHV) think fathers who cheat should have no custody?



Absolutely. If I cheated on my wife, I hope she would take the kids away from me and find someone who could provide them with a good fatherly influence. I don't deserve to be a part of their lives if I do something that selfish and stupid.
   155. Nasty Nate Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:03 PM (#5863849)
Finding out that mom slept with some other guy is too much for a lot of people apparently
I don't think that, exactly, is what gets the reaction.
   156. JAHV Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5863857)
People here seem naive about the amount of infidelity that goes on out there, even though this thread should show that it's not that uncommon.


I know it's not uncommon, but what bothers me is that because it's so prevalent, people treat it like it's no big deal. Adultery is terrible and should be viewed and treated as such.

Especially in a situation where one spouse is routinely traveling for work for days at a time, getting home late, etc. is it so hard to imagine that the kids might be better off with the other spouse at least having joint custody? Even if he/she isn't perfect. (Again, I'm not judging anyone's fitness as a parent here -- that was my work schedule for many years and it's my wife's schedule now.)


Intellectually, I don't disagree with you. You might be right - again, depending on circumstances. However, it's hard for me to separate my view of justice in this case from what is most beneficial for everyone involved, particularly the kids who don't have any real say in the matter but whose lives are significantly affected by the outcome.
   157. pikepredator Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:14 PM (#5863866)
Absolutely. If I cheated on my wife, I hope she would take the kids away from me and find someone who could provide them with a good fatherly influence. I don't deserve to be a part of their lives if I do something that selfish and stupid


What other habits/behaviors elicit this level of condemnation? What about someone who doesn't take care of themselves health-wise, eating terrible food, not exercising, drinking/smoking, etc.? They are setting a bad example for their children and also reducing their effectiveness to be a good parent, because of lower energy, mood swings, higher likelihood of being sick, and shorter lifespan overall. Those habits could be considered selfish and stupid and as likely if not moreso to negatively impact one's children, but no way in hell would I take away someone's kids for being that way. It's just a poor personal choice, that may or may not have a range of negative consequences.

What about someone with emotional trauma who won't get therapy and as a result is more prone to mood swings/depression/etc? Is the choice not to get treatment/therapy (which again sets a poor example and is likely to directly impact their ability to parent effectively) acceptable?

Cheating in particular strikes me as a terrible trait in a partner, but one that is less likely than many to impact children in a negative fashion than many lifestyle choices. People have good and bad qualities. People can cheat and be good people/parents otherwise.

On that note:

And there are a ton of crappy parents out there who stay faithful


That's more how I see it.
   158. Zonk Has Two Faces, Both Laughing Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:15 PM (#5863867)
Do you guys (Snapper and JAHV) think fathers who cheat should have no custody?

Absolutely. If I cheated on my wife, I hope she would take the kids away from me and find someone who could provide them with a good fatherly influence. I don't deserve to be a part of their lives if I do something that selfish and stupid.


I don't know that "deserve" has much to do with it, though - because isn't about the parent, it's about the kids.

Extending the anecdote above - my friend was royally pissed when he found out; when she told him* she asked if he wanted her to leave, yeah... he was very much GTFO that night. After a day - they talked and while he certainly didn't beg, he made it clear that he was willing to work through it even if only for the kids.... It was apparently her only instance of infidelity (they'd been married for about 15 years) and there was at least a happy marriage at some point, but the "once" gets overshadowed by a lengthy affair.

I suppose maybe it's different if the kids are very very young - but their oldest was basically halfway through his childhood... and what I'm quite sure was a happy family life suddenly got shattered. Figure another year of acrimonious litigation - and all that goes with it.... Clock's ticking, I guess.

*Just to also add on the sister-in-law - she confessed her affair to her sister on a Sunday morning and said sister delivered the point blank ultimatum that either she tell her husband/my friend that night or she (the sister) would be telling him.
   159. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5863869)
Absolutely. If I cheated on my wife, I hope she would take the kids away from me and find someone who could provide them with a good fatherly influence.


I think this is absurd. You wouldn't deserve to have the kids utterly yanked from your life. The kids are not benefited by your disappearance. The finding of a "good fatherly influence" is no small matter.
   160. bunyon Posted: July 22, 2019 at 01:21 PM (#5863872)
Absolutely. If I cheated on my wife, I hope she would take the kids away from me and find someone who could provide them with a good fatherly influence.


I think this is absurd.


I agree. Though, obviously, I understand the sentiment. But, here's the thing: How your wife treats you is not how they treat the kids. I do think adultery is terrible and too casually accepted by many. But this seems an overreaction in the opposite direction. It's essentially: Because you treated me terribly, I'm going to take my children's mother from them. Yes, you will hurt the mother (because she doesn't see the kids) but you can't do that without hurting the kids. Find some other way to get your vengeance. Or, you know, move on with your life.

   161. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 02:41 PM (#5863922)
156--are open marriages adultery? Not looking to fight, just curious.
   162. SoSH U at work Posted: July 22, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5863927)

156--are open marriages adultery? Not looking to fight, just curious.


I'd say no. I'm suspicious of how well they'll work over the long term, but if certain conduct is accepted by both parties going into the relationship, it's not the same thing as cheating.
   163. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5863933)
The Good Face Posted: July 22, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5863777) In my interactions with Jonah here I found him to be an arrogant, intolerant ass.


And yet, in spite of that, he turned out to be an ####### anyway. I guess you never can tell...
   164. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 03:01 PM (#5863935)
are open marriages adultery?


Open marriages, done correctly, are going to have set and well-discussed rules about exactly how open the couple wants the relationship to be. Having sex with someone else with the knowledge and consent of your partner isn't cheating, while stepping outside of those well-defined areas of consent (e.g. "don't have sex with any of my friends") is adultery.
   165. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5863938)
When it comes to the mom and dad dynamic kids almost always figure out what is and is not happening.

-------

Getting vengeance may be satisfaction for some; I subscribe to "living well is the best revenge". I choose forgiveness (but not forgetfulness) and pour my energy into my own healing and growth. Scorched-earth just perpetuates (for me) the kind of negative emotions that led to the demise of the marriage; I have no interest in spending more of my energy on negative emotions. It would only hold me back.

QFT


Sometimes it takes a while, but yeah. My daughter was a sophomore in high school when we split 8 years ago and she has been openly hostile to me (verbally, never physically) in every interaction with her since then as she had sided 100% with Momma. In the intervening years, I've kept the house, made some upgrades, remarried the perfect person for me, and -- other than missing my kids -- have a fantastic life. Meanwhile, the ex has dragged the kids to like 6 different addresses, been evicted from two of them, married the guy she was cheating on me with, then split from him about 6 months ago and immediately moved herself and the kids in with another guy at another house (probably her side piece while with Husband #3).

About two months ago, the daughter who had not had a civil conversation with me for almost 8 years texted me one night completely out of the blue asking if I would be open to mending burned bridges with her, and not to tell Mom. She'll be 24 soon and I hope is starting to see maybe Dad wasn't the bad guy he's been made out to be all this time after all. We haven't met in person yet, but our text exchanges have been cordial and fun, and I hope we'll be meeting again soon. Baby steps.
   166. Blastin Posted: July 22, 2019 at 03:43 PM (#5863948)
It's harmful to everyone and can lead to waiving away or ignoring instances when men are attacked by their partners or others --- or minimizing the need for men to be nurturers in a family context / potentially their ability to be a primary caregiver to children in a family court situation, or what have you. (On balance, it's more damaging to women, for reasons that are self-evident, but this is all tied together.)


Very much all of this.
   167. bunyon Posted: July 22, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5863949)
Good luck, Pat Rapper.
   168. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 03:53 PM (#5863952)
Seriously, man. We're all rooting for you.
   169. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:05 PM (#5863956)
162--I am just curious because I am surrounded by those types of relationships. My wife and I agreed not for us which has cost us some in different situations. And I agree with the sense that if both parties are cool then there is no issue.

   170. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5863958)
My divorce was super amicable. I could have gone scorched earth (I guess, most people found me blameless for what that is worth), but purposefully did not.

My ex and I have a great relationship to this day and going about it as we did was absolutely 100% the right thing to do for my kids. I agree with everyone up thread who prioritizes the kids first. As an adult I put myself into my marriage and had kids. Any fallout is 0% the responsibility of the kids and they should be sheltered as much as possible. And no sheltered doesn't mean lied to. We told them the truth.

Then again my situation was ... not typical and so doesn't apply to many other people.
   171. base ball chick Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5863959)
snapper

you don't have kidz so i'll tell you that

1 - kidz are NOT stupid and even little ones know if their parents don't like each other/want to be with each other

2 - kidz do NOT do well with 2 parents who hate each other stay together "for the sake of the kidz" in the same living space (although i do know a couple who didn't get divorced but kind of split the house in half

3 - kidz do best when parents have joint custody and the parents do their best to be polite and civil to each other and not badmouth the other one

4 - it is NOT good for kidz to be taken from a parent because the parent was a lousy partner. badmouthing the partner is a bad thing fr the kidz. and the kidz eventually find out they were used as a pawn and thy really don't like this once they put that together

5 - parents do often grow in different directions. sometimes, it is not compatible with staying together and if it is any serious kind of incompatibility it is not good for the kidz

6 - this is not 1950 and a family court is not going to remove all custody rights from a mother who committed adultery. not gonna happen. they are not gonna remove all custody rights from a FATHER who committed adultery. being about to keep their parents is best for kidz unless a parent is abusive or severely neglectful. in fact, a lot of warring parents are sent to negotiators to work out as amicabl custody arrangement as possible

as for all the DNA tests

well

best to not do DNA tests unless you are really prepared in case you find out stuff like you are a child of incest, one of your parents is not who you think it is, you have ancestry you didn't want to have (like you're a nazi and you find out your mother's "real" mother was jewish)

i've had a few friends who did the DNA ancestry thingy and found out some unpleasant things and they and their mamas are not having the best of times
   172. JAHV Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5863961)
156--are open marriages adultery? Not looking to fight, just curious.


In a secular sense, I would say no. I don't think they're healthy, and would be incredibly difficult to manage, but if two adults have agreed that they can sleep with other people as a part of their marriage, I wouldn't say that one is cheating on the other one. If your teacher gives you an open note test and you use your notes, that's not cheating.

I think this is absurd. You wouldn't deserve to have the kids utterly yanked from your life. The kids are not benefited by your disappearance. The finding of a "good fatherly influence" is no small matter.


Raising my three boys is the most important thing I do, and as part of that, it's absolutely imperative that my wife and I maintain a relationship where we can absolutely trust each other, where we're devoted to each other, and where we are united in our love for each other and our children. An extramarital affair undermines all of that, and it's a bell that can't be unrung. I'm not a perfect father by any stretch, and my wife and I don't live in some marriage utopia where we never argue or make mistakes. Honestly, I think that would be unhealthy for the kids as well, if only because they need to learn how to work through disagreements in a constructive way, and my wife and I can model it. Forgiveness is vital in a family setting. But adultery is such a blow to the pillars of a healthy marriage and good parenting that I find it difficult to wrap my head around how it could work afterward. Obviously it can in some situations, since there are people who make it happen. I don't know what I'd do if it happened in my marriage either way. I do know that I have no issue in feeling so strongly about it, since at the very least it keeps me out of temptation.
   173. Blastin Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:29 PM (#5863962)
The stats seems to say indeed, single parenting can be rough, but angry, together parents are rougher.

I don't really know why my (unmarried) parents split. I am sure I was an unexpected baby. I know, honestly, my mom and stepdad yelling at each other once they married was worse for me than my mom and dad living in separate places (though both in NYC) and getting along very well to this day. I just emailed both of them a question unrelated to this and they both responded.


Warmth is the key, I think. And I better figure it out since, well, I'm gonna be a parent next winter...
   174. Tom Nawrocki Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:33 PM (#5863966)
And I better figure it out since, well, I'm gonna be a parent next winter...


Congratulations, man!

bbc's 171 has been the best post in this thread.
   175. jmurph Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:33 PM (#5863967)
And I better figure it out since, well, I'm gonna be a parent next winter...

Congrats sir!
   176. base ball chick Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:36 PM (#5863969)
AHV Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5863961)

I don't live in some marriage utopia where we never argue or make mistakes. Honestly, I think that would be unhealthy for the kids as well, if only because they need to learn how to work through disagreements in a constructive way, and my wife and I can model it. Forgiveness is vital in a family setting


learn to work through disagreements - is what married life is all about, kidz or no kidz

some disagreements you just can't work through, unfortunately and if serious enough, well, you got kidz to think about
   177. base ball chick Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5863971)
CONGRATS BLASTIN!!!!!!!!

- am impressed all yall planned the baby to come between the last day of the WS and PACR
   178. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 22, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5863976)
173--congrats dude
   179. bunyon Posted: July 22, 2019 at 05:08 PM (#5863981)
Congrats, Blastin.

best to not do DNA tests unless you are really prepared in case you find out stuff like you are a child of incest, one of your parents is not who you think it is, you have ancestry you didn't want to have (like you're a nazi and you find out your mother's "real" mother was jewish)

Yeah, I have no clue why people do these. I mean, if there is a legit question of your parentage and you know it, I can see trying to find who is the biological father. But, what good can come of a DNA test just for kicks? I mean, I love my parents and would be crushed to find out Dad isn't my biological father. I'm fairly satisfied with familial resemblance to him and others on his side but there is always a good bit of seeing things that aren't there in that for anyone. Why would I possibly want to run such a test? The best outcome is everything is as I say. But I'm not doubting that so, so what? The worst outcome may unhinge me.

I'm perfectly happy to live with my assumptions.
   180. SoSH U at work Posted: July 22, 2019 at 05:19 PM (#5863986)
Congrats Blastin.

And the nature of this thread has vastly exceeded my expectations.

   181. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 05:41 PM (#5863992)
Congrats Blastin!

5 - parents do often grow in different directions. sometimes, it is not compatible with staying together and if it is any serious kind of incompatibility it is not good for the kidz

Well, not to speak for snapper, but growing apart and splitting up and *then* having relationships or just screwing other people is very different from cheating. There's probably never a good way to break up with your spouse, but there's a right way and a wrong way. Realistically, I know that it doesn't usually happen in that order -- more often the marriage has problems, someone cheats, and *then* there's a messy split. I am sure it can be very difficult for the parents and the kids either way, but nobody in this thread has suggested going scorched earth over a spouse who simply wants to split up and then post-separation or divorce dates someone else.

As for DNA tests, I have eschewed them because I don't trust that my data will be kept secure. But I can see the appeal. I come from a pretty small family and would be interested in reconnecting lost branches of our family tree (even though most branches probably ended in Eastern Europe during the Holocaust, there's reason to believe that some didn't).
   182. Eddo Posted: July 22, 2019 at 05:55 PM (#5863994)
Raising my three boys is the most important thing I do, and as part of that, it's absolutely imperative that my wife and I maintain a relationship where we can absolutely trust each other, where we're devoted to each other, and where we are united in our love for each other and our children.

I've been a father for all of four weeks, so maybe this is lack of experience talking, but... I don't understand why the part I bolded ("each other") is necessary for the parts that come before it. I expect my wife to be devoted to our daughter, and I also expect her to be devoted to me (in the ways we have promised each other), but I don't see how failing in the latter is failing in the former. In fact, I think there are numerous other failings she could have as a partner that would be a worse indicator of her parenting skills (e.g. poor money management, reckless driving or activities, impulsively quitting jobs).

And congrats, Blastin! Becoming a parent is pretty amazing :)
   183. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:01 PM (#5864004)
I've been a father for all of four weeks, so maybe this is lack of experience talking, but... I don't understand why the part I bolded ("each other") is necessary for the parts that come before it. I expect my wife to be devoted to our daughter, and I also expect her to be devoted to me (in the ways we have promised each other), but I don't see how failing in the latter is failing in the former. In fact, I think there are numerous other failings she could have as a partner that would be a worse indicator of her parenting skills (e.g. poor money management, reckless driving or activities, impulsively quitting jobs).

Three years in as a father and could not agree more.

EDIT: Congrats, Blastin!
   184. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5864005)
And I better figure it out since, well, I'm gonna be a parent next winter...


The bottle goes in the noisy end.

(Congratulations!)
   185. Kurt Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:24 PM (#5864011)
I've been a father for all of four weeks, so maybe this is lack of experience talking, but... I don't understand why the part I bolded ("each other") is necessary for the parts that come before it. I expect my wife to be devoted to our daughter, and I also expect her to be devoted to me (in the ways we have promised each other), but I don't see how failing in the latter is failing in the former. In fact, I think there are numerous other failings she could have as a partner that would be a worse indicator of her parenting skills (e.g. poor money management, reckless driving or activities, impulsively quitting jobs).


One of the most important jobs of a parent is modeling healthy behavior, and healthy relationships. I think it's almost impossible to be a bad spouse and a good parent (to minor children); but plenty of people can be good parents while being bad drivers or money managers or job holders.

Edit: never mind, I see 171 covered it.
   186. Jay Z Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:48 PM (#5864016)
I've been a father for all of four weeks, so maybe this is lack of experience talking, but... I don't understand why the part I bolded ("each other") is necessary for the parts that come before it. I expect my wife to be devoted to our daughter, and I also expect her to be devoted to me (in the ways we have promised each other), but I don't see how failing in the latter is failing in the former. In fact, I think there are numerous other failings she could have as a partner that would be a worse indicator of her parenting skills (e.g. poor money management, reckless driving or activities, impulsively quitting jobs).


It's lack of experience talking.

Being a responsible adult in those areas is not exactly an unreachable bar. I know many men and women who can do those things. Many of them are also faithful partners, which places them far above the unfaithful ones like my ex.

Just because my ex could be worse doesn't mean she is a good person. When you cheat on your spouse, when you divorce your spouse for someone else, and kids are involved... human beings are integrated, not discreet. Since you opened the door here, let's assume you are the one who will develop the itch to cheat on and/or leave your wife. Do you think she'll just shrug all of this off? Or might she be permanently affected by your betrayal, in ways that impact the raising of your children as well?

Yes, some people survive divorce, but there are a certain number of casualties as well. People who never really recover their prior, better selves from the experience. I know of a number of them. I personally would say I am damaged and worse for the experience. I'm stressed and sometimes hate my life in a way I never have before. This is not good for myself or my children and is entirely attributable to the actions of my ex.

Affairs and divorce grade very high on the trauma scale. Furthermore, there is the loss of the relationship which may not be recovered or replaced with one of the same quality. Second and subsequent marriages have higher rates of divorce than first marriages. Divorced people's level of unhappiness consistently polls higher than married, single or widowed. Remarried divorced people poll higher than divorced, but not to the level of first marriages.

I could not in good conscience do what my ex did to me, because of the potential damage to her as a person and a mother. I didn't need to step out, cheat, leave someone to learn that lesson. I would suggest you do some research.
   187. PreservedFish Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:52 PM (#5864018)
The conclusion to #165 is extremely heartwarming.
   188. Eddo Posted: July 23, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5864117)
Just because my ex could be worse doesn't mean she is a good person. When you cheat on your spouse, when you divorce your spouse for someone else, and kids are involved... human beings are integrated, not discreet. Since you opened the door here, let's assume you are the one who will develop the itch to cheat on and/or leave your wife. Do you think she'll just shrug all of this off? Or might she be permanently affected by your betrayal, in ways that impact the raising of your children as well?

Yes, some people survive divorce, but there are a certain number of casualties as well. People who never really recover their prior, better selves from the experience. I know of a number of them. I personally would say I am damaged and worse for the experience. I'm stressed and sometimes hate my life in a way I never have before. This is not good for myself or my children and is entirely attributable to the actions of my ex.

Definitely agree with your first sentence here - "the worst is not the friend of the worse" or something like that. But it seems like there are some conflicting ideas here. Is it the cheating or the divorce that's so bad? And as the son of two parents who fell out of love long ago (but are still married)... that sucks for the kids, too.

Keep in mind, too, my post was only a rebuttal to the idea that a cheating spouse deserves to have no custody. If my marriage broke up due to sexual infidelity on the part of my wife, I would definitely not want my daughter to go without her mother for the rest of her childhood. (The opposite is also true, but of course I would say I want custodial rights to my own daughter, regardless of it being my fault.)

Part of my (and my wife's) POV here is that we both don't view sex as being something that deserves extra-special treatment. We're not at the open marriage level, but we've had many conversations about how we would view things like cheating (things like a one-time thing vs. an ongoing affair / emotional attachment matter) and how it's not really a dealbreaker for either of us from a marriage standpoint, let alone a child-rearing one.
   189. Hysterical & Useless Posted: July 23, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5864150)
Heartiest congratulations to our man Blastin! Babies are the bestest!

165/PRD -- good luck there, your conclusion was indeed heartwarming, as PF said.

People shouldn't break their promises, but they too often do. Good reason to make as few as possible, and to make damn sure you keep the ones you do.

[I HATE it when, on cop shows, the detective tells the grieving spouse/parent, "I promise you we'll catch the person who did this." For god's sake, tell them you promise to do your best, but too many crimes go unsolved to set up that sort of expectation. (Yeah, I'm a bit of a crank about this.)]
   190. base ball chick Posted: July 23, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5864160)
Jay Z Posted: July 22, 2019 at 07:48 PM (#5864016)


Just because my ex could be worse doesn't mean she is a good person. When you cheat on your spouse, when you divorce your spouse for someone else, and kids are involved... human beings are integrated, not discreet. Since you opened the door here, let's assume you are the one who will develop the itch to cheat on and/or leave your wife. Do you think she'll just shrug all of this off? Or might she be permanently affected by your betrayal, in ways that impact the raising of your children as well?


- of COURSE the cheated on are hurt and want to know what they did to deserve it. it isn't a question of whether or not she'll shrug it off, but of
is she going to try to use th chiodren to get back at you for cheating, no matter what your relationship with them actually IS?

there are some people who are just incapable of monogamy and should have the decency to tell the other one this, but they always think they can handle it. sometimes the other one wants the relationship so much that they ignore the infidelity - or at least the one sided open marriage is unspoken


Yes, some people survive divorce, but there are a certain number of casualties as well. People who never really recover their prior, better selves from the experience. I know of a number of them. I personally would say I am damaged and worse for the experience. I'm stressed and sometimes hate my life in a way I never have before. This is not good for myself or my children and is entirely attributable to the actions of my ex.


- we've known each other on this here board for a very long time and i say this as someone who thinks you are a good guy - PLEASE - get yourself some counseling. not because there is "something wrong with you" or you "need meds" but because you need some help getting rid of the feelings you can't let go of. otherwise you are just letting her continue to hurt you. it is a kind of PTSD and it is real. if you are already getting counseling, the counselor is not doing you no good and PLEASE get a different one


Affairs and divorce grade very high on the trauma scale. Furthermore, there is the loss of the relationship which may not be recovered or replaced with one of the same quality. Second and subsequent marriages have higher rates of divorce than first marriages. Divorced people's level of unhappiness consistently polls higher than married, single or widowed. Remarried divorced people poll higher than divorced, but not to the level of first marriages.


- except for a few players who can't resist the thrill of a new lover, most women cheat because the relationship is ALREADY lost and they are looking for what you don't, won't or can't give, in someone else

- staying with a partner who no longer loves you and doesn't want to be with you and, basically, doesn't interact with you, or who wants different life - that is high on the trauma scale, too. for both you and the kidz because, trust me on this, they KNOW all right

from what i have seen of people i know, most relationships are basically over with in something like 4 or 5 years. people change. and most people don't now how to talk to each other to work out pretty much any difficult issue. sometimes, they just kind of keep on keepin on because of money or not wanting to lose the kidz

lots of married people don't have actual sex with someone else but just have other relationships. or, uh, toys or, uh, videos. they have a so-called marriage where there is no longer any love, honor or cherish about the other person - just money

divorce is expensive in every way

people who are living together but not married, well, there is still custody problems and at least in this state, men who are poor and unmarried and can't afford expensive family lawyers get to pay child support and not much else unless the kidz are old enough to choose what parent they want to live with



   191. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: July 23, 2019 at 11:52 AM (#5864167)
BBC, you really should have a TV show where you give people life advice. You'd be bigger than Dr. Phil (and better at it as well).
   192. pikepredator Posted: July 23, 2019 at 02:20 PM (#5864244)
we've known each other on this here board for a very long time and i say this as someone who thinks you are a good guy - PLEASE - get yourself some counseling. not because there is "something wrong with you" or you "need meds" but because you need some help getting rid of the feelings you can't let go of. otherwise you are just letting her continue to hurt you. it is a kind of PTSD and it is real. if you are already getting counseling, the counselor is not doing you no good and PLEASE get a different one


Thank you for saying this. It was exactly what I had to do. I am now healthier mentally (and physically, it's all connected) than ever, after being a badly bent (but not quite broken) man back in 2014. There are still behaviors that pop-up which either myself or my partner recognizes as relics of that past relationship - in fact just the other day at my family reunion someone commented "I've never heard someone put away dishes silently, that's amazing" and I had to collect myself, because it dawned on me exactly *why* I had learned to put away dishes silently.

Anyway, I'm glad you said this. As a lurker I didn't feel right telling someone else what to do, but you hit the nail on the head.
   193. base ball chick Posted: July 23, 2019 at 04:07 PM (#5864280)
191

laughing - my "life advice" would be mostly - don't treat the persons you are supposed to love and care about like garbage and don't be a butthole. also, say what you mean and mean what you say. don't let your mouth make promises your a$$ can't keep. remember you got NO idea what other people are going through. try to make other peoples days better. use good manners at all times


and i have learned the hard way that pretty much people don't listen to advice
   194. Eddo Posted: July 23, 2019 at 04:11 PM (#5864284)
Perfectly said in #193, bbc.
   195. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: July 23, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5864286)
193--I totally support the say what you mean idea and my experience is limited to a series of incredibly shallow, physically-oriented relationships prior to getting married but I have not met many people mature enough to get the 'say what you mean' approach. Most take some kind of packaging at which I suck royal ass. One of the reasons I married my wife is that I did my straight talk and instead of the usual reaction got a 'that's cool, you're kind of a dick, but I get you' Which was and still is awesome
   196. base ball chick Posted: July 23, 2019 at 04:49 PM (#5864302)
195

i have a very hard time dealing with people who want me to just somehow know what they think/feel and get upset if i don't. there isn't a need to be RUDE, but just, like out with it without being aggressive. makes communication SO much easier
   197. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 23, 2019 at 05:26 PM (#5864316)
snapper

you don't have kidz so i'll tell you that


But I have seen kids negatively impacted by divorce, my two nephews. No parent is better than a selfish, uninterested parent. The less my nephews see their father, the more well adjusted they are. The same would probably be true of my sister, to tell the truth.
   198. JAHV Posted: July 23, 2019 at 06:45 PM (#5864329)
And I better figure it out since, well, I'm gonna be a parent next winter...


Congratulations! It's an amazing journey, and it brings new joys (and, yes, frustrations) every single day. The joy far, far exceeds the frustration, though. Have fun!
   199. JAHV Posted: July 23, 2019 at 06:53 PM (#5864330)
Part of my (and my wife's) POV here is that we both don't view sex as being something that deserves extra-special treatment.


My point of view is informed significantly by my feeling (and my wife's) that sexual intimacy exclusively each other is a vital part of our married relationship. It brings us closer together and is part of the unity I mentioned above. I believe very strongly that sex is a wonderful thing that loses its joy when reduced to a physical thrill or even a temporary emotional thrill with a non long-term partner or spouse. Yeah, my wife and I are pretty old-fashioned in that view, but we feel it's strengthened our marriage.
   200. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: July 23, 2019 at 07:12 PM (#5864337)
- staying with a partner who no longer loves you and doesn't want to be with you and, basically, doesn't interact with you, or who wants different life - that is high on the trauma scale, too. for both you and the kidz because, trust me on this, they KNOW all right


100% correct. I did this in my first marriage. That phase lasted for nearly 4 years. When I finally told my kids we were getting divorced, my oldest at the time who was 18, said, "what the hell took so long, it's been pretty miserable here for awhile"

I felt like the worst human to ever breath. Good news is 5 years later, all the kids seem pretty good now.

BBC, your post in 171 is spot on.

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