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Friday, July 22, 2022

Derek Jeter Doc Shows That As Usual, Alex Rodriguez Doesn’t Get It

Meanwhile, A-Rod, at the time, also did an interview with Dan Patrick where he basically said, “There’s not one thing [Jeter] does better than me.”

Jeter addressed that incident as well in the docuseries.

“In my mind, he got his contract, so you’re trying to diminish what I’m doing, maybe to justify why you got paid,” said Jeter. “When you talk about statistics, mine never compared to Alex’s. I’m not blind. I understand that. But, we won! You can say whatever you want about me as a player. That’s fine,” Jeter said.

“But then it goes back to the trust, the loyalty. This is how the guy feels. He’s not a true friend, is how I felt. Because I wouldn’t do it to a friend.”

It’s pretty clear that the reason Jeter had had enough of A-Rod was A-Rod. Yet, here is A-Rod, still trying to blame “people” for having an agenda to drive a wedge between the two.

What an ego.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:21 PM | 100 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: alex rodriguez, derek jeter

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   1. JJ1986 Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:31 PM (#6087798)
he basically said, “There’s not one thing [Jeter] does better than me.”
Why not find the actual quote?
   2. McCoy Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:35 PM (#6087801)
Does Jeter go through life thinking everyone should be his friend?

ARod made his silly remarks in 2001. Were they friends at that point?
   3. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:50 PM (#6087810)
Just horsing around.
   4. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 02:28 PM (#6087817)
“There’s not one thing [Jeter] does better than me.”

Jeter's gift baskets probably were a bigger hit with the recipients than A-Rod's feed baskets.
   5. Lassus Posted: July 22, 2022 at 02:32 PM (#6087818)
Was there actually any baseball thing that Jeter did better than A-Rod when A-Rod said that?
   6. bookbook Posted: July 22, 2022 at 02:33 PM (#6087819)
Only talking about baseball, A-Rod was very nearly accurate.
   7. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: July 22, 2022 at 02:36 PM (#6087821)
As big as New York is, only one could be the centaur of attention.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 02:38 PM (#6087822)

he basically said, “There’s not one thing [Jeter] does better than me.”

Why not find the actual quote?



Yea, that's not straight from the horse's mouth.
   9. Walt Davis Posted: July 22, 2022 at 03:10 PM (#6087826)
Yep, ARod was better than Jeter -- yet another ARod flaw!!

“In my mind, he got his contract, so you’re trying to diminish what I’m doing, maybe to justify why you got paid,”

Ummmm....
   10. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 04:46 PM (#6087835)
ARod made his silly remarks in 2001. Were they friends at that point?

The young pair of shortstops inevitably developed a tight friendship. They got so close that they would sleep over each other's houses when the Mariners and Yankees played each other. A former teammate of Jeter’s once asked him “are you going to your boyfriend’s house?” when the Yankees played the Mariners in 1998.
   11. A triple short of the cycle Posted: July 22, 2022 at 04:58 PM (#6087838)
Jeter continued, "And when he left in the morning after our sleepover, he took 2 gift baskets on his way out! I would not do that to a friend."
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:00 PM (#6087839)
The young pair of shortstops inevitably developed a tight friendship. They got so close that they would sleep over each other's houses when the Mariners and Yankees played each other. A former teammate of Jeter’s once asked him “are you going to your boyfriend’s house?” when the Yankees played the Mariners in 1998.

That's been known for years, but it'll change the opinions of Primates about as much as layers of evidence that Trump instigated the 1/6 insurrection is likely to change the minds of a typical MAGA voter. Jeter and A-Rod are never going to get any love around here, no matter what they say or do, and no matter what the topic. It's just the way it is.
   13. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:01 PM (#6087840)

They were also in a boy band together in the late 1990s.

EDIT: not really, but I still think that picture is hilarious.
   14. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:40 PM (#6087845)
Alex Gonzalez really was a handsome dude.
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:46 PM (#6087848)
per Post 13 - even A-Rod's boobs were bigger than Jeter's!

I saw Part I, thought it was pretty good - granted, though, that my expectations were set very, very low so maybe I graded on a curve....
   16. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:56 PM (#6087849)
Jeter and A-Rod are never going to get any love around here, no matter what they say or do, and no matter what the topic. It's just the way it is.
Are you saying we should put these comments out to pasture?
   17. A triple short of the cycle Posted: July 22, 2022 at 05:59 PM (#6087850)
think that picture is hilarious
Apparently each gift basket contained a gold chain.
   18. villageidiom Posted: July 22, 2022 at 06:19 PM (#6087852)
Are you saying we should put these comments out to pasture?
Nay.
   19. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 22, 2022 at 06:49 PM (#6087855)
Was Jeter even in ARod’s NEIGHborhood?
   20. Dillon Gee Escape Plan Posted: July 22, 2022 at 07:01 PM (#6087856)
A-Rod's also more financially stable.
   21. Jack Sommers Posted: July 22, 2022 at 09:07 PM (#6087867)
Just horsing around.


Spit on my keyboard. It never gets old
   22. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 22, 2022 at 10:28 PM (#6087891)
Was there actually any baseball thing that Jeter did better than A-Rod when A-Rod said that?

Or at any point when they were both active. ARod seems like a huge #######, but so does Jeter, and ARod was the FAR, FAR better player.

Edit: After a quick look at BRef, it's a pretty easy comparison since they have very similar PA. ARod was massively better as a hitter (640 Rbat to 353), MASSIVELY better as a fielder (23 Rfield vs -253, or 10.4 dWAR vs. -9.4), they were equal baserunners (dead even on Rbaser). Jeter was slightly better at avoiding DPs (7 vs -5), so I guess he has that.
   23. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:29 PM (#6087907)
One thing Jeter was better at: Not juicing. I realize that's irrelevant to most people here.
   24. Walt Davis Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6087918)
Dunno ... ARod was pretty crap at juicing, getting caught twice. (Obviously all we know is that Jeter never got caught ... unless of course his name was on that first list, we'll never know.)

I don't recall the timeline -- was ARod's piss test before or after Braun, using the same guys, had been caught (and flushed on a technicality)?
   25. Brian White Posted: July 22, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6087919)
Alex Gonzalez really was a handsome dude.


I know it's a bit of a meme to respond to any discussion of Alex Gonzalez with, "wait, which one are we talking about?" But in all seriousness, which Alex Gonzalez was that?
   26. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:00 AM (#6087921)
the Giants have an OF now named Luis Gonzalez - no, not that one
   27. SoSH U at work Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:04 AM (#6087923)
I don't recall the timeline -- was ARod's piss test before or after Braun, using the same guys, had been caught (and flushed on a technicality)?


Arod was on the 2003 list and admitted to using in 2009.
Braun failed the test but successfully protested in 2011.
Braun was suspended for appearing on the Biogenesis list in 2013.
Also on the Biogenesis list, Arod suspended all of 2014.
   28. baxter Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:05 AM (#6087924)
There was a question somewhere about 3b starting in All Star game for each league; was it ever answered (curious to know)?
   29. SoSH U at work Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:10 AM (#6087926)
was it ever answered (curious to know)?


Nettles did it.
   30. Ken Griffey Junior Bacon Cheeseburger Posted: July 23, 2022 at 12:47 PM (#6087958)
I know it's a bit of a meme to respond to any discussion of Alex Gonzalez with, "wait, which one are we talking about?" But in all seriousness, which Alex Gonzalez was that?


This would be the one who started with the Blue Jays and made the error post-Bartman play with the Cubs.
   31. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 23, 2022 at 01:59 PM (#6087967)
The documentary is repeated on ESPN at midnight tonight. That’s Eastern time, better consult your local listings elsewhere.
   32. donlock Posted: July 23, 2022 at 02:42 PM (#6087971)
Nothing to do with ARod but in Jeter’s draft year, the number one pick was Phil Nevin, the Angels’ current manager. The Orioles picked #5 and picked Jeffrey Hammond. The Yankees picked 6th and took Jeter . Fun to imagine those three in different uniforms and careers. The TV show doesn’t so far compare Jetes to other draftees.
   33. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 23, 2022 at 03:06 PM (#6087974)
CORRECTION TO #31: The repeat broadcast is on ESPN2 tonight.
   34. Barnaby Jones Posted: July 23, 2022 at 04:00 PM (#6087980)
I know it's a bit of a meme to respond to any discussion of Alex Gonzalez with, "wait, which one are we talking about?" But in all seriousness, which Alex Gonzalez was that?


The one that doesn't look like a Seabass
   35. Moeball Posted: July 23, 2022 at 06:13 PM (#6087995)
I've heard many people talk of A-Rod as a selfish jerk and Jeter as this saintly paragon of virtue. Yet, when Alex joined the Yankees, he was a better hitter and better fielding shortstop than Derek...and was the one moved from shortstop to third base.

Are there any other examples of this in baseball history? Two players conceivably vying for the same job at the same position, and the one who was clearly inferior got handed the job and the clearly superior player got told to go find another position, presumably so the clearly inferior player wouldn't get his nose bent out of joint?

Am I the only person who thinks this is completely insane?
   36. Lassus Posted: July 23, 2022 at 06:34 PM (#6087997)
I did actually think that someone would have answered #5 by now. He was right, wasn't he?
   37. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 06:52 PM (#6087999)
Jeter was way better than anyone at not getting to ground balls, yet doing it so gracefully that it looked to a casual observer that no other SS could have gotten it, either - even though that was patently untrue.

The Greatest Trick Jeter Ever Pulled Was Convincing His Fans That He Was A GOOD Fielder.
   38. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:19 PM (#6088002)
Alex Rodriguez was no great fielding SS and he was "bulking up". It's doubtful he could hanged at SS all that long in NY and if the Tanks had moved Jeter for ARod that would have been a mess when it became clear that ARod needed to be moved. At that point where would you move him to? You going to move Jeter again?
   39. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:21 PM (#6088003)
R 5 and 36. Clutch plays and postseason performance
   40. baxter Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:26 PM (#6088004)
38 What is the basis for the statement that "Rodriguez was no great fielding SS"? I get that he was bulking up, I refer to the first part of your statement. Even if he were only "good" or "average" he would still be better than Jeter.

Can anyone speak to Arod's range as a fielder? He had a good arm; so he could have made up for lack of range/speed as a fielder as he aged by improving positioning. Ripken had a great arm, was not quick, but was a good fielder.
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:39 PM (#6088006)
R 5 and 36. Clutch plays and postseason performance

except that A-Rod was a significantly better postseason hitter (and fielder, obviously) than Jeter at the point when A-Rod arrived in New York. that included a 1.253 OPS vs the Yankees in 2000 in 25 PA.

So Jeter doesn't even get that one.
   42. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:40 PM (#6088007)
Yes he'd be better than Jeter but he'd be under the microscope. So what are you going to do when it becomes obvious ARod needs to move off SS?
   43. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:42 PM (#6088009)
ARod had one great series and one ok series at that point. Jeter by that point had 10 postseason series about as good as ARod's ok series or better plus was the WS MVP
   44. Ron J Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:43 PM (#6088010)
#38 He'd just won two consecutive Gold Gloves. Yeah, in itself not the greatest argument since Jeter is the guy who got the Gold Glove after ARod moved. Still, ARod had the popular rep as best defensive SS in the AL at the time and good defensive number. Jeter by contrast had a good defensive rep (at the time) and bad defensive numbers.

And I can't see anything that would make me think he'd lost any speed or quickness until about 2008.

Still, by 2005 Cano was there (and his presence in the organization likely factored into the decisions made). I don't think either Jeter or Cano really had the arm for third.

I think it's plausible they'd have been better served by moving Jeter to CF, cutting the cord a year early on Williams and picking up a 3B rather than Damon in 2005. But that's a moderately risky move. I think there's a good chance that he'd have been good out there, but we've certainly seen some bad results in asking an infielder to play the outfield, regardless of how athletic he is.
   45. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 07:53 PM (#6088012)
Jeter by that point had 10 postseason series about as good as ARod's ok series or better

thru 2000, Jeter had 5 postseason series better than A-Rod's "ok series" in terms of OPS and five that were worse.

the ones worse than A-Rod's "ok" .875 were .801, .650, .579, .529, and .384.
one of the "better" ones was .882 - far closer to the "ok" number than the 5 Jeter series that were worse.

then in 2001, Jeter had a .318 ALCS OPS and a .438 WS OPS as the Yankees lost the latter series in 7 games - with Jeter only knocking in 1 run.

from 2001-03 - before A-Rod arrived - Jeter mixed in three series better than "ok" .875, and four that were worse.

seems like a stretch to say that Jeter hit "better" in the postseason to that point, which is the criteria from Post 5.
A-Rod was better at it; Jeter just had more volume.
   46. baxter Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:02 PM (#6088014)
42. You move him off SS, in what, five years; he certainly indicated a willingness to play a position other than SS. He was under a microscope in any event and won two MVP's. Who do you think he was, Ed Whitson?

First world problems, Yankee problems. I'm glad they put Arod at 3rd; they might have won more WS w/him at SS.
   47. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:12 PM (#6088015)
ARod was better at it? He had something like 3 postseason series up to that point. Jeter has 7 series where he put up an OPS higher than .875 and 2 more seasons at .800 which with small sample size is darn near ARod's ok playoff series.

I had counted a series in 2001 but the quote came out at the beginning of the season.
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:21 PM (#6088020)
Jeter has 7 series where he put up an OPS higher than .875

7 out of 13 thru 2000. and as I noted, four of those were .650 or worse.

thru 2003, Jeter had 10 better and 10 worse than A-Rod's "ok .875."

in 2004, A-Rod had a 1.213 OPS vs Minnesota and a .895 OPS in the choke job vs. Boston.
in 2004, Jeter went .876 - so just "ok" - and .567 in the Red Sox series.

yes, I know all Yankees fans immediately blamed A-Rod - but A-Rod was a better postseason performer being arriving with the Yankees, and he widened the gap in 2004.

then he was bad, horrible, and kind of ok in 2005-07. no playoffs in 2008.
in 2009, A-Rod went 1.500, 1.519, and .973 to carry the Yankees to their last WS title (and pennant).

Jeter went 1.438, .875, and .947 - another sweep for A-Rod.
   49. Pirate Joe Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:22 PM (#6088023)
So what are you going to do when it becomes obvious ARod needs to move off SS?


Well what did they do when it was obvious that Jeter should have been moved off SS?

   50. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:29 PM (#6088025)
And ARod had 60% of his postseason series be .615 OPS or worse.


The question posed was that when ARod said what he said was Jeter better than ARod at anything in baseball.
   51. Howie Menckel Posted: July 23, 2022 at 08:55 PM (#6088029)
right, and at that point A-Rod was better than Jeter at hitting in the postseason.
that continued through 2001, 2004, and 2009.
after that, A-Rod fell off a steeper cliff than Jeter did, but that wasn't part of the question.

I don't even get how this is a debate.
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 23, 2022 at 10:19 PM (#6088037)
One thing Jeter was better at: Not juicing. I realize that's irrelevant to most people here.

It's kind of cute that there are still people who will confidently state that a star player from that era didn't juice. Why would you believe Jeter was clean. He hasn't shown any particular ethics in any other sphere of his life, professional or personal.
   53. baxter Posted: July 23, 2022 at 10:54 PM (#6088041)
49 I saw the query posited that Jeter would move off SS for ARod. So, IF the Yankees had moved Jeter off SS for ARod, then when the time came, which was the question, ARod would have moved. Why? Because he actually did move off SS when requested. What in ARod's behavior leads you to think he would have insisted on remaining at SS? He moved off 3B for 1B when he couldn't play there. Remember, ARod is a centaur, not a mule (stubborn).
   54. baxter Posted: July 23, 2022 at 10:55 PM (#6088042)
49 I saw the query posited that Jeter would move off SS for ARod. So, IF the Yankees had moved Jeter off SS for ARod, then when the time came, which was the question, ARod would have moved. Why? Because he actually did move off SS when requested. What in ARod's behavior leads you to think he would have insisted on remaining at SS? He moved off 3B for 1B when he couldn't play there. Remember, ARod is a centaur, not a mule (stubborn).
   55. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2022 at 12:11 AM (#6088051)
One thing Jeter was better at: Not juicing. I realize that's irrelevant to most people here.

It's kind of cute that there are still people who will confidently state that a star player from that era didn't juice. Why would you believe Jeter was clean. He hasn't shown any particular ethics in any other sphere of his life, professional or personal.


I see your Whataboutism isn't confined to politics. Nobody has ever introduced a single shred of evidence that Jeter was taking steroids. Innuendo is easy and meaningless, and it's telling that 99% of it in Jeter's case seems to come from those who want to minimize what A-Rod and other confirmed juicers did.

And your "ethics" case against Jeter consists of rumors about his relationships with women and his reported refusal to move from short to accommodate A-Rod.** Neither of those has anything to do with steroids.

** Oh, and the ABSOLUTELY UNHEARD OF practice of once accepting a dubious HBP call, which we all know every other player would've refused, ho ho.
   56. Howie Menckel Posted: July 24, 2022 at 12:58 AM (#6088053)
will wait to see the whole episode 2
   57. McCoy Posted: July 24, 2022 at 08:14 AM (#6088058)
This is extremely odd. Through 2000 ARod was not better in the postseason than Jeter.
   58. TomH Posted: July 24, 2022 at 08:59 AM (#6088063)
The puns are hilaripus.
   59. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2022 at 09:11 AM (#6088065)
Overall Jeter's OPS in the postseason was only slightly better than A-Rod's, .838 to .822. But while Jeter was fairly consistent over the years, A-Rod had an OPS of 1.083 through game 3 of the 2004 ALCS, and .718 after that.

And even that .718 is padded by the gaudy 1.308 he put up in the 2009 postseason. Other than that one shining month, his postseason rep as a Yankee is pretty much what he deserves. From game 4 of the 2004 ALCS through 2007 his postseason OPS was .578, and from 2010 through 2015 it was .427.
   60. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:15 AM (#6088070)

And your "ethics" case against Jeter consists of rumors about his relationships with women and his reported refusal to move from short to accommodate A-Rod.** Neither of those has anything to do with steroids.


How about his absolute fleecing of the people of Miami and the fans of the Marlins? He should have needed a gun and a mask to rip off a city that badly (being the hired shill to get some owner the franchise on the promise of installing winning ways, and then strip mining the franchise of all talent while taking an exorbitant pay check).

And yes, his personal life suggests an utter sleaze. Sending his handlers into clubs to procure women for him, because he can't be bothered to talk to them, and pawning them off with a gift basket, is several rungs below just hiring prostitutes.

What is there to like about him, besides the fact that he wore the right laundry?
   61. DL from MN Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:18 AM (#6088071)
It was great seeing A-Rod after the ASG congratulating his broadcasting colleague David Ortiz on being inducted into the Hall of Fame. It took a lot of control to be able to say that, and just that. He might be able to network his way in after the writers ignore him.
   62. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2022 at 12:05 PM (#6088072)
What is there to like about [Jeter], besides the fact that he wore the right laundry?

It's not that complicated. He played the game the right way, and played it on a HoF level without any need for steroids. I wish I could say that about A-Rod. The off-the-field stuff is no more relevant to me in Jeter's case than it is for Curt Schilling or Johnny Damon. The ethical standards they should be held to concern their on-the-field conduct. If it were only a case of "the right laundry", I'd be making excuses for A-Rod and rooting against Schilling's HoF candidacy.
   63. McCoy Posted: July 24, 2022 at 12:08 PM (#6088073)
Wow, you hate Jeter because of unsubstantiated rumors?
   64. BDC Posted: July 24, 2022 at 12:32 PM (#6088075)
And even that .718 is padded by the gaudy 1.308 he put up in the 2009 postseason. Other than that one shining month, his postseason rep as a Yankee is pretty much what he deserves. From game 4 of the 2004 ALCS through 2007 his postseason OPS was .578, and from 2010 through 2015 it was .427

Postseason series are such small samples that most attempts to critique a star's performance turn out like this: "Except for the times he was great, he was terrible!"

I wonder if there's a single HOF/HOVG type player who could excel in the regular season but turned out to be truly overmatched in the post, in anything close to a significant sample. (Though by definition there must be one guy who underachieved the most, and it would be interesting to identify him and ask if it meant anything.)
   65. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 24, 2022 at 01:29 PM (#6088080)
It's not that complicated. He played the game the right way, and played it on a HoF level without any need for steroids. I wish I could say that about A-Rod. The off-the-field stuff is no more relevant to me in Jeter's case than it is for Curt Schilling or Johnny Damon. The ethical standards they should be held to concern their on-the-field conduct.

Sorry, no. I choose to like and dislike people based on their whole character. I don't care if ######## help my team win, but I still think they're ########.

Wow, you hate Jeter because of unsubstantiated rumors?

I hate him (and it's only sports hate) because he was a blatant phony, who was massively over-rated by NY fans and fellated by the media. It was a truly sickening sight. He also appears to be a lousy human being, who ran a huge con on the citizens and fans of Miami. I also hate Schilling for defrauding the tax-payers of Rhode Island, and advocating violence against people for their opinions. There's also the fact that the over-rating of Jeter, and his huge ego, cost my team twemty wins or so because he stayed at SS for 15 years after he could effectively play the position.

But seriously, I wouldn't want to have dinner with either ARod or Jeter.
   66. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2022 at 01:38 PM (#6088082)
How about his absolute fleecing of the people of Miami and the fans of the Marlins?
Given the hand he had to play, Jeter did a pretty good job with the Marlins. The farm system was notably improved, as was the Major League pitching staff. They even made the playoffs one year. How it would have played out over a longer term remains unknown, but Jeter did what should have been done in that situation. The criticisms here are silly.

I also don’t know how so many people got the idea that Jeter was the Yankees player-manager during his tenure with the team. Not true, Joe Torre made out the line-up when A-Rod was acquired.
   67. BDC Posted: July 24, 2022 at 02:11 PM (#6088084)
Derek Jeter was overrated in the sense that he was about the 15th-best shortstop in 150 years instead of the 5th. Or maybe in the sense that baseball isn't very important in the big picture. Otherwise he was actually a fairly great ballplayer :)
   68. McCoy Posted: July 24, 2022 at 02:23 PM (#6088086)
He ran a con on Miami?
   69. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: July 24, 2022 at 09:56 PM (#6088122)
Overall Jeter's OPS in the postseason was only slightly better than A-Rod's, .838 to .822. But while Jeter was fairly consistent over the years, A-Rod had an OPS of 1.083 through game 3 of the 2004 ALCS, and .718 after that.

Using a specific game in the middle of a series to split A-Rod's sample is essentially the definition of cherry picking. If you just split him by Mariners and Yankees, you get .941 and .794, which is a lot closer. A 150-point difference is about the same as, say, the difference between Jeter in the ALDS (.916) and Jeter in the ALCS (.751). Can I assume you don't read any particular meaning into that gap?
   70. Howie Menckel Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:09 PM (#6088126)
also, the question was not even close to "in their overall careers, who was better in the postseason?" - which is debatable.

A-Rod was better than Jeter on that front before he arrived in NY, he was better than Jeter in 2004, and he - not Jeter - carried them to their only WS in two decades in 2009.

but when you don't have the facts on your said, misdirection is needed.....
   71. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:21 PM (#6088127)
Using a specific game in the middle of a series to split A-Rod's sample is essentially the definition of cherry picking. If you just split him by Mariners and Yankees, you get .941 and .794, which is a lot closer. A 150-point difference is about the same as, say, the difference between Jeter in the ALDS (.916) and Jeter in the ALCS (.751). Can I assume you don't read any particular meaning into that gap?

You can read into those splits I mentioned whatever you want to, but unless you completely discount the psychological element in streaks, it's not hard to remember the amount of media coverage surrounding A-Rod's constant postseason failures that began with that game 4 and continued through the next 3 years after that, and resumed after 2009 to the end of his career. It's also not hard to remember the thunderous booing he got as those streaks kept going on and on. It wasn't exactly a secret, and IIRC at one point he was pinch hit for in two consecutive postseason games, while in at least one other game he was removed from the lineup altogether. You can talk all the sabermetric talk about "random chance" that you want, but whether it was that or a mental block, those numbers were what they were.

Seriously, do you think that professional athletes are robots, and that they're unaffected by memories of failure patterns? Hitting Major League pitching is hard enough when a player's mind is clear, no matter how talented he is, but having to deal with a monkey on your back makes it even harder. You could fill several books with the thoughts of athletes who've testified to this psychological phenomenon, and it's hardly a myth.
   72. Howie Menckel Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:55 PM (#6088128)
Game 4 of the ALCS:
A-Rod 1 for 5, HR, 2 RBI, 1 R
Jeter 1 for 4, 1 R

Game 5:
A-Rod 0 for 4
Jeter 1 for 7, 3 RBI

Game 6:
A-Rod 1 for 4
Jeter 1 for 4, RBI

Game 7:
A-Rod 0 for 4
Jeter 1 for 4, RBI

A-Rod went 2 for 17, HR, 2 RBI, 1 R
Jeter went 4 for 19, 5 RBI, 1 R

now, it's true that in that in the real world, Yankees fans - unable to blame Jeter for anything (note his abysmal performance in the 7-game loss to ARI in the 2001 WS) - bullied A-Rod very successfully.

well, if "successful" means the guy lost his confidence and then spit the bit for the next 2 postseasons - contributing greatly to the Yankees' failures.

Jeter enjoyed his undeserved grant of immunity - remember, through 2004 A-Rod was the better postseason performer and he outdid Jeter in that very series - and did quite well in 2005/2006. he was dreadful in 2007 (3-for-17, .353 OPS), but the immunity was a lifetime one.

Torre's use of Mariano in the postseason - multiple innings, etc - was his most brilliant stroke, and for that he deserves all the kudos he has gotten.

and his mismanagement of A-Rod after 2004 is his greatest failure. he loved Jeter and hated A-Rod, and he seemed content to go down with the ship in 2005-07 rather than throw A-Rod a lifeline. which is very strange and counterproductive - but we humans don't always act very logically, do we?
   73. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: July 24, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6088129)
Seriously, do you think that professional athletes are robots

Upon reflection, this is... probably what I deserved for coming on too strong in my original response.
   74. SoSH U at work Posted: July 25, 2022 at 12:06 AM (#6088130)
and his mismanagement of A-Rod after 2004 is his greatest failure. he loved Jeter and hated A-Rod, and he seemed content to go down with the ship in 2005-07 rather than throw A-Rod a lifeline.


Yeah, that drowning SOB only won two MVPs after 2004 under Torre.
   75. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2022 at 12:35 AM (#6088132)
this is a discussion about the postseasons of Jeter and A-Rod. Torre screwed the pooch on that with A-Rod 2005-07 (let's bat him 8th - what could go wrong when dealing with an insecure egomaniac!), and I'll be surprised if anyone doesn't recognize that.
   76. Jaack Posted: July 25, 2022 at 01:01 AM (#6088133)
Not to simply boil it down to one number, but A-Rod outpaces Jeter by cWPA both for their respective career's and for the 2004-2009 periods where they were the Yankees' core. For all his postseason glory, Jeter ended up breaking even overall - 1.2% career cWPA may as well be nothing, particularly compared to A-Rod at 17.7% on his career. If exclude both of their terrible post-09 play, A-Rod looks even better, coming out ahead 35.46% to Jeter's 11.3%.

Of course, cWPA doesn't account for defense, but I can't imagine that helps Jeter.
   77. SoSH U at work Posted: July 25, 2022 at 01:12 AM (#6088134)
this is a discussion about the postseasons of Jeter and A-Rod. Torre screwed the pooch on that with A-Rod 2005-07 (let's bat him 8th - what could go wrong when dealing with an insecure egomaniac!), and I'll be surprised if anyone doesn't recognize that.


It's arrant nonsense. In the 2005 playoffs, Arod hit for ####, and Torre left him in the same lineup slot all four games. Apparently, that year, stability was mismanaging.

In 2006, Torre batted him sixth to start the series (probably on the idea that he had been getting dumped on by the NY press for the past two postseasons and that might take some pressure off him). He then moved him up to fourth, which didn't work either, then down to eighth. He possibly thought lightning could strike twice, as three years earlier, he tried a similar tactic with a struggling slugger (who by the way, had a better season than Arod in their seasons in question), a guy who responded to this mismanagement by banging out two homers. And when Torre moved Giambi down in the order for Game 7 of the 2003, there was no caterwauling about the blatant disrespect of a former MVP by doing so. Funny how a good game works like that.

In 2007, Torre kept him in the cleanup spot for all four games. Arod hit better, but not like he had in the regular season.

Oh, and by the way, in the season after his unceremonious drop to eighth in the order, the insecure egomaniac had the best season of his career with the bat.

Arod struggled in the postseason 2005-06, less so in 2007. The idea any of this was because of Torre's mismanagement is absurd. The idea Torre did it because his hatred of Arod meant he would rather see him struggle than succeed is pathologically insane.
   78. BDC Posted: July 25, 2022 at 06:51 AM (#6088135)
Athletes are certainly not robots, and it is likely that psychological factors play into their performance; I just wonder if one can read that narrative from the outside via box-score lines and commentators' opinions.

So if the narrative goes that 2004, and then especially going 0-for-3 in that bat-him-eighth game in 2006, engrained a "failure pattern" in AROD's career …

You have to discount AROD leading the league in HR and RBI in 2007 (as SoSH mentions) – OK, let's say that's just the regular season and it's hugely different from the post.

And you have to discount AROD's .365/.500/.808 in the 2009 postseason, as many have mentioned – OK, let's say that Joe Girardi re-instilled AROD's will to live, briefly anyway because he hit poorly for Girardi in postseasons later on.

That narrative gets as psychologically complicated as any Russian novel. My simpler counter-hypothesis would be that in some series, the opposing pitching staff figured him out, and in some they didn't.
   79. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2022 at 10:45 AM (#6088158)
A-Rod was hung out to dry by Torre in the public domain in each of those postseasons, and the results are what they are. A-Rod is not exactly a complex character.

it's quite odd to see the dodges of "but A-Rod was great in some of those regular seasons!" in a thread about the postseasons of A-Rod and Jeter. all sides agreed at a certain point that all that mattered was what A-Rod did in the postseason. and he did poorly in 2005-06 especially (though he was much, much better than Jeter in 2007 and 2009, with 2008 a non-playoff season for both).

I was struck in spring training 2009 when A-Rod noted that he had visited with a sports psychologist. so after years of falsely claiming a friendship with Jeter, he admitted in a press conference that it was nonsense. they weren't friends, but he said they were teammates and they both wanted to win. it seemed liberating to A-Rod.

he was never a great player again after that postseason, April through October - PEDs moving up his aging line?
   80. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: July 25, 2022 at 11:22 AM (#6088163)
Sending his handlers into clubs to procure women for him, because he can't be bothered to talk to them, and pawning them off with a gift basket, is several rungs below just hiring prostitutes.

Is it? I mean, for starters, prostitution is illegal.

And why are we assuming that the women didn't get anything out of spending the night with a celebrity? Have they no agency?
   81. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2022 at 11:46 AM (#6088171)
I was struck in spring training 2009 when A-Rod noted that he had visited with a sports psychologist. so after years of falsely claiming a friendship with Jeter, he admitted in a press conference that it was nonsense. they weren't friends, but he said they were teammates and they both wanted to win. it seemed liberating to A-Rod.

So I guess this guy certainly lived up to his reputation. I hope the Yankees gave him a ring and a World Series share.

   82. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 25, 2022 at 12:48 PM (#6088186)
That's been known for years, but it'll change the opinions of Primates about as much as layers of evidence that Trump instigated the 1/6 insurrection is likely to change the minds of a typical MAGA voter. Jeter and A-Rod are never going to get any love around here, no matter what they say or do, and no matter what the topic. It's just the way it is.

I have no idea what this is in response to. Someone asked whether Jeter and A-Rod were even friends in 2001, and implicitly criticized Jeter for expecting A-Rod to behave like a friend to him. In fact, they were supposedly friends and I don't think it's overly sensitive for Jeter to have felt hurt by A-Rod's comments. (For him to still be upset about it 20+ years later is a bit much.)
   83. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 25, 2022 at 01:27 PM (#6088192)
… it's true that in that in the real world, Yankees fans - unable to blame Jeter for anything (note his abysmal performance in the 7-game loss to ARI in the 2001 WS) …
Geez, Howie’s seems about a half-step from breaking out the ‘Rey Ordonez is as good as Jeter when you consider defense’ refrain. Jeter had a poor 2001 ALCS & WS because he was pretty banged up after diving into the photographers pit to make a great catch for a key out in the 2001 ALDS. No one holds that against Jeter because the Yankees wouldn’t have been in the World Series that year without that play & The Flip. And Jeter did manage to pull himself together for the ‘Mr. November’ game in that Series.

Jeter had a fantastic career, including the postseason, when he played as well overall as the regular season, or better, against much tougher competition. A-Rod had a great career, too, but neither Jeter, nor Joe Torre, are responsible for any of his difficulties along the way.
   84. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 25, 2022 at 01:44 PM (#6088195)
Yankees' lore is always about being on the right team at the right time

The imported Tino Martinez played in 1,054 regular season games as a Yankee, and was worth 1.8 WAA. His postseason slash line in NY from 1996-2001 was an astounding .247/.331/.384, followed by going 0-for-8 with a walk in his return in 2005.

In summation, he was a slightly above average regular season performer and a terrible postseason hitter (who was actually benched for the first three wins in the 1996 World Series before coming off the bench and going 0-for-3 in G6). Naturally, Martinez has a plaque in Monument Park.

You're either part of the in crowd (AKA the 90s dynasty) or you're not.
   85. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 25, 2022 at 01:58 PM (#6088198)
In summation, he was a slightly above average regular season performer and a terrible postseason hitter (who was actually benched for the first three wins in the 1996 World Series before coming off the bench and going 0-for-3 in G6). Naturally, Martinez has a plaque in Monument Park.
Interesting way to put it. Those ‘first three wins’ were in Atlanta, a NL park with no DH under the rules at that time. So Cecil Fielder played 1st base there, while Tino did so at the Yankee Stadium games.
   86. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 25, 2022 at 02:17 PM (#6088201)
Yankees' lore is always about being on the right team at the right time

The imported Tino Martinez played in 1,054 regular season games as a Yankee, and was worth 1.8 WAA. His postseason slash line in NY from 1996-2001 was an astounding .247/.331/.384, followed by going 0-for-8 with a walk in his return in 2005.

In summation, he was a slightly above average regular season performer and a terrible postseason hitter (who was actually benched for the first three wins in the 1996 World Series before coming off the bench and going 0-for-3 in G6). Naturally, Martinez has a plaque in Monument Park.


Not really disagreeing with that take, but Tino also hit two of the more memorable postseason home runs of the Torre years. No Yankees fan who was around then will ever forget this one or this one. Fans remember signature moments, and they don't come much better than those two.
   87. base ball chick Posted: July 25, 2022 at 02:47 PM (#6088203)
andy got a point.

kind of like how brad ausmus be branded in my mind forevah because of his homah off the LCF wall to tie up game 5 NLDS in 05. a beautiful sight

jeter shmeter. a guy too chickenshttt scared to go pick up women his own self and had to send a pimp. barrrrrrf

obviously arod was a much better ss than jeter. but ol jetes had Mystique and Aura on his side and that was that. who knows who said what to who 20+ years ago

you wanna see someone seriously outstanding in the postseason, check out lance berkman. and his best postseason serious was the WS when he was an Old Guy with the cards
   88. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 25, 2022 at 03:27 PM (#6088207)
Not really disagreeing with that take, but Tino also hit two of the more memorable postseason home runs of the Torre years. No Yankees fan who was around then will ever forget this one or this one. Fans remember signature moments, and they don't come much better than those two.


Who didn't get a few big game-tying or go ahead hit at some point in the 90s/00s postseason run?

Yankee fans just fawn over their mid 90s guys, no matter how mediocre they actually were. Because all that matters are the rings.
   89. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2022 at 03:27 PM (#6088208)
Howie’s seems about a half-step from breaking out the ‘Rey Ordonez is as good as Jeter when you consider defense’ refrain.

STRAWMAN ALERT!

as was noted earlier, Jeter can be recognized as a great all-time player AND as overrated. the pretense that both cannot be true is a problem for those with limited levels of nuance.
   90. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 25, 2022 at 03:35 PM (#6088210)
Interesting way to put it. Those ‘first three wins’ were in Atlanta, a NL park with no DH under the rules at that time. So Cecil Fielder played 1st base there, while Tino did so at the Yankee Stadium games.


Considering Martinez played first in 151 of 155 regular season games and in every game of the postseason while Fielder was the DH in 53 of the 63 games he appeared in as a Yankee, it's actually not interesting at all.

Martinez was the Yankees first baseman in 1996 and Fielder — once he arrived — was their DH. Until Martinez got benched

   91. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 25, 2022 at 03:59 PM (#6088211)
Not really disagreeing with that take, but Tino also hit two of the more memorable postseason home runs of the Torre years. No Yankees fan who was around then will ever forget this one or this one. Fans remember signature moments, and they don't come much better than those two.

I watched every playoff game Martinez played for the Yankees and had no idea what HRs you were referring to without clicking. So, YMMV on "signature moments".
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 25, 2022 at 04:06 PM (#6088212)
as was noted earlier, Jeter can be recognized as a great all-time player AND as overrated. the pretense that both cannot be true is a problem for those with limited levels of nuance.

Fun fact, Bobby Grich is much, much better than Jeter, same WAR and almost 50% more WAA in 4400 fewer PA, and he can't even get a Veterans committee to pay attention.
   93. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: July 25, 2022 at 04:19 PM (#6088213)
Interesting way to put it. Those ‘first three wins’ were in Atlanta, a NL park with no DH under the rules at that time. So Cecil Fielder played 1st base there, while Tino did so at the Yankee Stadium games.

Considering Martinez played first in 151 of 155 regular season games and in every game of the postseason while Fielder was the DH in 53 of the 63 games he appeared in as a Yankee, it's actually not interesting at all.


For what it's worth, two of the three games in Atlanta were started by lefties for the Braves; Fielder was the platoon-favored option in those games. (Not sure why Fielder was also picked in Game 5, which was started by Smoltz, but he went 3/4 and drove in the game's only run, so it's hard to argue with the results.)
   94. Ithaca2323 Posted: July 25, 2022 at 04:38 PM (#6088217)
For what it's worth, two of the three games in Atlanta were started by lefties for the Braves; Fielder was the platoon-favored option in those games. (Not sure why Fielder was also picked in Game 5, which was started by Smoltz)


Because it wasn't a lefty-righy issue. The Yankees were benching Martinez.

"Yankee manager Joe Torre said this would not be similar to the 1996 World Series, when Martinez, who hit .091 against Atlanta, was benched for production reasons...'When I sat Tino that game in Atlanta, it was against a right-handed pitcher.'

Another .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) source

"Torre started Hayes and Fielder, both righthanded batters, against righthander Smoltz, benching struggling lefthanded hitters Boggs and Tino Martinez.
   95. KronicFatigue Posted: July 26, 2022 at 10:30 AM (#6088290)
I was a hardcore Yankees fan during the Jeter era, and he was one of my least favorite players. He felt fake and controlled, as though each answer was measured to make sure to maintain his image. Arod was a hot insecure mess, but I rooted for him because at least that's the "real" him.

I don't necessarily think Jeter played the game "the right way". We don't know if he was asked to move off of SS, but it feels unlikely that nobody in the Yankees organization realized Arod was the better SS (or that Jeter had many of the right tools to be good in the OF). Jeter often bunted on his own which felt like TRYING to play the right way. I don't believe he moved down in the batting order late in his career, even though he should have.

He also wasn't a very good teammate, at least in interviews. Even if he disliked Arod, for the betterment of the team, his answers could have been different in those postseasons where Arod got inside his own head.

I have no intention of watching the documentary, but the clip where he points out "the yankees won" when comparing himself to Arod is horseshit (damn, I tried to avoid puns). Arod was the better baseball player. Full stop.
   96. Brian White Posted: July 28, 2022 at 07:43 AM (#6088731)
I watched every playoff game Martinez played for the Yankees and had no idea what HRs you were referring to without clicking. So, YMMV on "signature moments".


Wait, really? I don't care one iota about the Yankees and knew the HR off Kim would be one of the two.

I completely purged the memory of the '98 World Series from my brain because it was incredibly boring, but the 2001 home run? That was a key point in one of the greatest World Series ever played.
   97. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2022 at 07:46 AM (#6088732)
Was that commercial last night during the subway series game on ESPN new? Because it seemed like Jeter just being a massive dick to Nomar; not back in the day, but a couple months ago when this was actually filmed.
   98. Lassus Posted: July 28, 2022 at 07:51 AM (#6088733)
Wait, really? I don't care one iota about the Yankees and knew the HR off Kim would be one of the two.

This actually doesn't seem that off from snapper because - and I mean this in his defense - as a Yankee fan they're all so relentlessly clubbed to death with marked HISTORIC REAL AMAZING SIGNATURE TRUE Yankee moments some of them just have to end up in the churn.
   99. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: July 28, 2022 at 09:04 AM (#6088736)
I watched every playoff game Martinez played for the Yankees and had no idea what HRs you were referring to without clicking. So, YMMV on "signature moments".

Wait, really? I don't care one iota about the Yankees and knew the HR off Kim would be one of the two.

Three possible reasons why snapper suppressed that Tino moment:

1. He's old and senile.

2. The Yankees went on to lose the World Series, which wiped out his memories of the 2001 postseason entirely.

3. An inning later, Derek Jeter became "Mr. November" with his game-winning home run just after midnight, and well, we all know snapper's opinion of Jeter.

All of those theories are inherently plausible, but I'd go with #3. Snapper really doesn't like Jeter.

I completely purged the memory of the '98 World Series from my brain because it was incredibly boring, but the 2001 home run? That was a key point in one of the greatest World Series ever played.

Right. And the game 5 sequel with Brosius in the Tino role made both of them even easier to remember in combination. Prior to each of those game tying home runs, the Yankees' win probability stood at 5%. What happened in game 7 was a national tragedy, but it shouldn't erase memories of the two earlier games when America's Team stood tall.

------------------
This actually doesn't seem that off from snapper because - and I mean this in his defense - as a Yankee fan they're all so relentlessly clubbed to death with marked HISTORIC REAL AMAZING SIGNATURE TRUE Yankee moments some of them just have to end up in the churn.

Lassus, that'd be like a Mets fan born before about 1978 forgetting this. Certain moments are just reality checks to test true fandom.
   100. Howie Menckel Posted: July 28, 2022 at 09:36 AM (#6088740)
Was that commercial last night during the subway series game on ESPN new? Because it seemed like Jeter just being a massive dick to Nomar; not back in the day, but a couple months ago when this was actually filmed.


that was awesome, if indeed it was about 2003 and Jeter is saying "'we were better' - that's what losers always say" - one year before his direct contribution to the biggest choke in the history of professional sports. would love to see a followup asking, "So, were the 2004 Red Sox just better than you?"

this probably gets me off the fence to watch the 2 new segments tonight.

:)

in fact, it's "Parts 3 and 4" - maybe 2003 and then 2004? ooh, that would be rich.

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