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Friday, July 22, 2022
Derek Jeter Doc Shows That As Usual, Alex Rodriguez Doesn’t Get It
Meanwhile, A-Rod, at the time, also did an interview with Dan Patrick where he basically said, “There’s not one thing [Jeter] does better than me.”
Jeter addressed that incident as well in the docuseries.
“In my mind, he got his contract, so you’re trying to diminish what I’m doing, maybe to justify why you got paid,” said Jeter. “When you talk about statistics, mine never compared to Alex’s. I’m not blind. I understand that. But, we won! You can say whatever you want about me as a player. That’s fine,” Jeter said.
“But then it goes back to the trust, the loyalty. This is how the guy feels. He’s not a true friend, is how I felt. Because I wouldn’t do it to a friend.”
It’s pretty clear that the reason Jeter had had enough of A-Rod was A-Rod. Yet, here is A-Rod, still trying to blame “people” for having an agenda to drive a wedge between the two.
What an ego.
RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)
Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:21 PM | 100 comment(s)
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1. JJ1986 Posted: July 22, 2022 at 01:31 PM (#6087798)ARod made his silly remarks in 2001. Were they friends at that point?
Jeter's gift baskets probably were a bigger hit with the recipients than A-Rod's feed baskets.
Yea, that's not straight from the horse's mouth.
“In my mind, he got his contract, so you’re trying to diminish what I’m doing, maybe to justify why you got paid,”
Ummmm....
That's been known for years, but it'll change the opinions of Primates about as much as layers of evidence that Trump instigated the 1/6 insurrection is likely to change the minds of a typical MAGA voter. Jeter and A-Rod are never going to get any love around here, no matter what they say or do, and no matter what the topic. It's just the way it is.
They were also in a boy band together in the late 1990s.
EDIT: not really, but I still think that picture is hilarious.
I saw Part I, thought it was pretty good - granted, though, that my expectations were set very, very low so maybe I graded on a curve....
Apparently each gift basket contained a gold chain.
Spit on my keyboard. It never gets old
Or at any point when they were both active. ARod seems like a huge #######, but so does Jeter, and ARod was the FAR, FAR better player.
Edit: After a quick look at BRef, it's a pretty easy comparison since they have very similar PA. ARod was massively better as a hitter (640 Rbat to 353), MASSIVELY better as a fielder (23 Rfield vs -253, or 10.4 dWAR vs. -9.4), they were equal baserunners (dead even on Rbaser). Jeter was slightly better at avoiding DPs (7 vs -5), so I guess he has that.
I don't recall the timeline -- was ARod's piss test before or after Braun, using the same guys, had been caught (and flushed on a technicality)?
I know it's a bit of a meme to respond to any discussion of Alex Gonzalez with, "wait, which one are we talking about?" But in all seriousness, which Alex Gonzalez was that?
Arod was on the 2003 list and admitted to using in 2009.
Braun failed the test but successfully protested in 2011.
Braun was suspended for appearing on the Biogenesis list in 2013.
Also on the Biogenesis list, Arod suspended all of 2014.
Nettles did it.
This would be the one who started with the Blue Jays and made the error post-Bartman play with the Cubs.
The one that doesn't look like a Seabass
Are there any other examples of this in baseball history? Two players conceivably vying for the same job at the same position, and the one who was clearly inferior got handed the job and the clearly superior player got told to go find another position, presumably so the clearly inferior player wouldn't get his nose bent out of joint?
Am I the only person who thinks this is completely insane?
The Greatest Trick Jeter Ever Pulled Was Convincing His Fans That He Was A GOOD Fielder.
Can anyone speak to Arod's range as a fielder? He had a good arm; so he could have made up for lack of range/speed as a fielder as he aged by improving positioning. Ripken had a great arm, was not quick, but was a good fielder.
except that A-Rod was a significantly better postseason hitter (and fielder, obviously) than Jeter at the point when A-Rod arrived in New York. that included a 1.253 OPS vs the Yankees in 2000 in 25 PA.
So Jeter doesn't even get that one.
And I can't see anything that would make me think he'd lost any speed or quickness until about 2008.
Still, by 2005 Cano was there (and his presence in the organization likely factored into the decisions made). I don't think either Jeter or Cano really had the arm for third.
I think it's plausible they'd have been better served by moving Jeter to CF, cutting the cord a year early on Williams and picking up a 3B rather than Damon in 2005. But that's a moderately risky move. I think there's a good chance that he'd have been good out there, but we've certainly seen some bad results in asking an infielder to play the outfield, regardless of how athletic he is.
thru 2000, Jeter had 5 postseason series better than A-Rod's "ok series" in terms of OPS and five that were worse.
the ones worse than A-Rod's "ok" .875 were .801, .650, .579, .529, and .384.
one of the "better" ones was .882 - far closer to the "ok" number than the 5 Jeter series that were worse.
then in 2001, Jeter had a .318 ALCS OPS and a .438 WS OPS as the Yankees lost the latter series in 7 games - with Jeter only knocking in 1 run.
from 2001-03 - before A-Rod arrived - Jeter mixed in three series better than "ok" .875, and four that were worse.
seems like a stretch to say that Jeter hit "better" in the postseason to that point, which is the criteria from Post 5.
A-Rod was better at it; Jeter just had more volume.
First world problems, Yankee problems. I'm glad they put Arod at 3rd; they might have won more WS w/him at SS.
I had counted a series in 2001 but the quote came out at the beginning of the season.
7 out of 13 thru 2000. and as I noted, four of those were .650 or worse.
thru 2003, Jeter had 10 better and 10 worse than A-Rod's "ok .875."
in 2004, A-Rod had a 1.213 OPS vs Minnesota and a .895 OPS in the choke job vs. Boston.
in 2004, Jeter went .876 - so just "ok" - and .567 in the Red Sox series.
yes, I know all Yankees fans immediately blamed A-Rod - but A-Rod was a better postseason performer being arriving with the Yankees, and he widened the gap in 2004.
then he was bad, horrible, and kind of ok in 2005-07. no playoffs in 2008.
in 2009, A-Rod went 1.500, 1.519, and .973 to carry the Yankees to their last WS title (and pennant).
Jeter went 1.438, .875, and .947 - another sweep for A-Rod.
Well what did they do when it was obvious that Jeter should have been moved off SS?
The question posed was that when ARod said what he said was Jeter better than ARod at anything in baseball.
that continued through 2001, 2004, and 2009.
after that, A-Rod fell off a steeper cliff than Jeter did, but that wasn't part of the question.
I don't even get how this is a debate.
It's kind of cute that there are still people who will confidently state that a star player from that era didn't juice. Why would you believe Jeter was clean. He hasn't shown any particular ethics in any other sphere of his life, professional or personal.
It's kind of cute that there are still people who will confidently state that a star player from that era didn't juice. Why would you believe Jeter was clean. He hasn't shown any particular ethics in any other sphere of his life, professional or personal.
I see your Whataboutism isn't confined to politics. Nobody has ever introduced a single shred of evidence that Jeter was taking steroids. Innuendo is easy and meaningless, and it's telling that 99% of it in Jeter's case seems to come from those who want to minimize what A-Rod and other confirmed juicers did.
And your "ethics" case against Jeter consists of rumors about his relationships with women and his reported refusal to move from short to accommodate A-Rod.** Neither of those has anything to do with steroids.
** Oh, and the ABSOLUTELY UNHEARD OF practice of once accepting a dubious HBP call, which we all know every other player would've refused, ho ho.
And even that .718 is padded by the gaudy 1.308 he put up in the 2009 postseason. Other than that one shining month, his postseason rep as a Yankee is pretty much what he deserves. From game 4 of the 2004 ALCS through 2007 his postseason OPS was .578, and from 2010 through 2015 it was .427.
And your "ethics" case against Jeter consists of rumors about his relationships with women and his reported refusal to move from short to accommodate A-Rod.** Neither of those has anything to do with steroids.
How about his absolute fleecing of the people of Miami and the fans of the Marlins? He should have needed a gun and a mask to rip off a city that badly (being the hired shill to get some owner the franchise on the promise of installing winning ways, and then strip mining the franchise of all talent while taking an exorbitant pay check).
And yes, his personal life suggests an utter sleaze. Sending his handlers into clubs to procure women for him, because he can't be bothered to talk to them, and pawning them off with a gift basket, is several rungs below just hiring prostitutes.
What is there to like about him, besides the fact that he wore the right laundry?
It's not that complicated. He played the game the right way, and played it on a HoF level without any need for steroids. I wish I could say that about A-Rod. The off-the-field stuff is no more relevant to me in Jeter's case than it is for Curt Schilling or Johnny Damon. The ethical standards they should be held to concern their on-the-field conduct. If it were only a case of "the right laundry", I'd be making excuses for A-Rod and rooting against Schilling's HoF candidacy.
Postseason series are such small samples that most attempts to critique a star's performance turn out like this: "Except for the times he was great, he was terrible!"
I wonder if there's a single HOF/HOVG type player who could excel in the regular season but turned out to be truly overmatched in the post, in anything close to a significant sample. (Though by definition there must be one guy who underachieved the most, and it would be interesting to identify him and ask if it meant anything.)
Sorry, no. I choose to like and dislike people based on their whole character. I don't care if ######## help my team win, but I still think they're ########.
Wow, you hate Jeter because of unsubstantiated rumors?
I hate him (and it's only sports hate) because he was a blatant phony, who was massively over-rated by NY fans and fellated by the media. It was a truly sickening sight. He also appears to be a lousy human being, who ran a huge con on the citizens and fans of Miami. I also hate Schilling for defrauding the tax-payers of Rhode Island, and advocating violence against people for their opinions. There's also the fact that the over-rating of Jeter, and his huge ego, cost my team twemty wins or so because he stayed at SS for 15 years after he could effectively play the position.
But seriously, I wouldn't want to have dinner with either ARod or Jeter.
I also don’t know how so many people got the idea that Jeter was the Yankees player-manager during his tenure with the team. Not true, Joe Torre made out the line-up when A-Rod was acquired.
Using a specific game in the middle of a series to split A-Rod's sample is essentially the definition of cherry picking. If you just split him by Mariners and Yankees, you get .941 and .794, which is a lot closer. A 150-point difference is about the same as, say, the difference between Jeter in the ALDS (.916) and Jeter in the ALCS (.751). Can I assume you don't read any particular meaning into that gap?
A-Rod was better than Jeter on that front before he arrived in NY, he was better than Jeter in 2004, and he - not Jeter - carried them to their only WS in two decades in 2009.
but when you don't have the facts on your said, misdirection is needed.....
You can read into those splits I mentioned whatever you want to, but unless you completely discount the psychological element in streaks, it's not hard to remember the amount of media coverage surrounding A-Rod's constant postseason failures that began with that game 4 and continued through the next 3 years after that, and resumed after 2009 to the end of his career. It's also not hard to remember the thunderous booing he got as those streaks kept going on and on. It wasn't exactly a secret, and IIRC at one point he was pinch hit for in two consecutive postseason games, while in at least one other game he was removed from the lineup altogether. You can talk all the sabermetric talk about "random chance" that you want, but whether it was that or a mental block, those numbers were what they were.
Seriously, do you think that professional athletes are robots, and that they're unaffected by memories of failure patterns? Hitting Major League pitching is hard enough when a player's mind is clear, no matter how talented he is, but having to deal with a monkey on your back makes it even harder. You could fill several books with the thoughts of athletes who've testified to this psychological phenomenon, and it's hardly a myth.
A-Rod 1 for 5, HR, 2 RBI, 1 R
Jeter 1 for 4, 1 R
Game 5:
A-Rod 0 for 4
Jeter 1 for 7, 3 RBI
Game 6:
A-Rod 1 for 4
Jeter 1 for 4, RBI
Game 7:
A-Rod 0 for 4
Jeter 1 for 4, RBI
A-Rod went 2 for 17, HR, 2 RBI, 1 R
Jeter went 4 for 19, 5 RBI, 1 R
now, it's true that in that in the real world, Yankees fans - unable to blame Jeter for anything (note his abysmal performance in the 7-game loss to ARI in the 2001 WS) - bullied A-Rod very successfully.
well, if "successful" means the guy lost his confidence and then spit the bit for the next 2 postseasons - contributing greatly to the Yankees' failures.
Jeter enjoyed his undeserved grant of immunity - remember, through 2004 A-Rod was the better postseason performer and he outdid Jeter in that very series - and did quite well in 2005/2006. he was dreadful in 2007 (3-for-17, .353 OPS), but the immunity was a lifetime one.
Torre's use of Mariano in the postseason - multiple innings, etc - was his most brilliant stroke, and for that he deserves all the kudos he has gotten.
and his mismanagement of A-Rod after 2004 is his greatest failure. he loved Jeter and hated A-Rod, and he seemed content to go down with the ship in 2005-07 rather than throw A-Rod a lifeline. which is very strange and counterproductive - but we humans don't always act very logically, do we?
Upon reflection, this is... probably what I deserved for coming on too strong in my original response.
Yeah, that drowning SOB only won two MVPs after 2004 under Torre.
Of course, cWPA doesn't account for defense, but I can't imagine that helps Jeter.
It's arrant nonsense. In the 2005 playoffs, Arod hit for ####, and Torre left him in the same lineup slot all four games. Apparently, that year, stability was mismanaging.
In 2006, Torre batted him sixth to start the series (probably on the idea that he had been getting dumped on by the NY press for the past two postseasons and that might take some pressure off him). He then moved him up to fourth, which didn't work either, then down to eighth. He possibly thought lightning could strike twice, as three years earlier, he tried a similar tactic with a struggling slugger (who by the way, had a better season than Arod in their seasons in question), a guy who responded to this mismanagement by banging out two homers. And when Torre moved Giambi down in the order for Game 7 of the 2003, there was no caterwauling about the blatant disrespect of a former MVP by doing so. Funny how a good game works like that.
In 2007, Torre kept him in the cleanup spot for all four games. Arod hit better, but not like he had in the regular season.
Oh, and by the way, in the season after his unceremonious drop to eighth in the order, the insecure egomaniac had the best season of his career with the bat.
Arod struggled in the postseason 2005-06, less so in 2007. The idea any of this was because of Torre's mismanagement is absurd. The idea Torre did it because his hatred of Arod meant he would rather see him struggle than succeed is pathologically insane.
So if the narrative goes that 2004, and then especially going 0-for-3 in that bat-him-eighth game in 2006, engrained a "failure pattern" in AROD's career …
You have to discount AROD leading the league in HR and RBI in 2007 (as SoSH mentions) – OK, let's say that's just the regular season and it's hugely different from the post.
And you have to discount AROD's .365/.500/.808 in the 2009 postseason, as many have mentioned – OK, let's say that Joe Girardi re-instilled AROD's will to live, briefly anyway because he hit poorly for Girardi in postseasons later on.
That narrative gets as psychologically complicated as any Russian novel. My simpler counter-hypothesis would be that in some series, the opposing pitching staff figured him out, and in some they didn't.
it's quite odd to see the dodges of "but A-Rod was great in some of those regular seasons!" in a thread about the postseasons of A-Rod and Jeter. all sides agreed at a certain point that all that mattered was what A-Rod did in the postseason. and he did poorly in 2005-06 especially (though he was much, much better than Jeter in 2007 and 2009, with 2008 a non-playoff season for both).
I was struck in spring training 2009 when A-Rod noted that he had visited with a sports psychologist. so after years of falsely claiming a friendship with Jeter, he admitted in a press conference that it was nonsense. they weren't friends, but he said they were teammates and they both wanted to win. it seemed liberating to A-Rod.
he was never a great player again after that postseason, April through October - PEDs moving up his aging line?
Is it? I mean, for starters, prostitution is illegal.
And why are we assuming that the women didn't get anything out of spending the night with a celebrity? Have they no agency?
So I guess this guy certainly lived up to his reputation. I hope the Yankees gave him a ring and a World Series share.
I have no idea what this is in response to. Someone asked whether Jeter and A-Rod were even friends in 2001, and implicitly criticized Jeter for expecting A-Rod to behave like a friend to him. In fact, they were supposedly friends and I don't think it's overly sensitive for Jeter to have felt hurt by A-Rod's comments. (For him to still be upset about it 20+ years later is a bit much.)
Jeter had a fantastic career, including the postseason, when he played as well overall as the regular season, or better, against much tougher competition. A-Rod had a great career, too, but neither Jeter, nor Joe Torre, are responsible for any of his difficulties along the way.
The imported Tino Martinez played in 1,054 regular season games as a Yankee, and was worth 1.8 WAA. His postseason slash line in NY from 1996-2001 was an astounding .247/.331/.384, followed by going 0-for-8 with a walk in his return in 2005.
In summation, he was a slightly above average regular season performer and a terrible postseason hitter (who was actually benched for the first three wins in the 1996 World Series before coming off the bench and going 0-for-3 in G6). Naturally, Martinez has a plaque in Monument Park.
You're either part of the in crowd (AKA the 90s dynasty) or you're not.
The imported Tino Martinez played in 1,054 regular season games as a Yankee, and was worth 1.8 WAA. His postseason slash line in NY from 1996-2001 was an astounding .247/.331/.384, followed by going 0-for-8 with a walk in his return in 2005.
In summation, he was a slightly above average regular season performer and a terrible postseason hitter (who was actually benched for the first three wins in the 1996 World Series before coming off the bench and going 0-for-3 in G6). Naturally, Martinez has a plaque in Monument Park.
Not really disagreeing with that take, but Tino also hit two of the more memorable postseason home runs of the Torre years. No Yankees fan who was around then will ever forget this one or this one. Fans remember signature moments, and they don't come much better than those two.
kind of like how brad ausmus be branded in my mind forevah because of his homah off the LCF wall to tie up game 5 NLDS in 05. a beautiful sight
jeter shmeter. a guy too chickenshttt scared to go pick up women his own self and had to send a pimp. barrrrrrf
obviously arod was a much better ss than jeter. but ol jetes had Mystique and Aura on his side and that was that. who knows who said what to who 20+ years ago
you wanna see someone seriously outstanding in the postseason, check out lance berkman. and his best postseason serious was the WS when he was an Old Guy with the cards
Who didn't get a few big game-tying or go ahead hit at some point in the 90s/00s postseason run?
Yankee fans just fawn over their mid 90s guys, no matter how mediocre they actually were. Because all that matters are the rings.
STRAWMAN ALERT!
as was noted earlier, Jeter can be recognized as a great all-time player AND as overrated. the pretense that both cannot be true is a problem for those with limited levels of nuance.
Considering Martinez played first in 151 of 155 regular season games and in every game of the postseason while Fielder was the DH in 53 of the 63 games he appeared in as a Yankee, it's actually not interesting at all.
Martinez was the Yankees first baseman in 1996 and Fielder — once he arrived — was their DH. Until Martinez got benched
I watched every playoff game Martinez played for the Yankees and had no idea what HRs you were referring to without clicking. So, YMMV on "signature moments".
Fun fact, Bobby Grich is much, much better than Jeter, same WAR and almost 50% more WAA in 4400 fewer PA, and he can't even get a Veterans committee to pay attention.
Considering Martinez played first in 151 of 155 regular season games and in every game of the postseason while Fielder was the DH in 53 of the 63 games he appeared in as a Yankee, it's actually not interesting at all.
For what it's worth, two of the three games in Atlanta were started by lefties for the Braves; Fielder was the platoon-favored option in those games. (Not sure why Fielder was also picked in Game 5, which was started by Smoltz, but he went 3/4 and drove in the game's only run, so it's hard to argue with the results.)
Because it wasn't a lefty-righy issue. The Yankees were benching Martinez.
"Yankee manager Joe Torre said this would not be similar to the 1996 World Series, when Martinez, who hit .091 against Atlanta, was benched for production reasons...'When I sat Tino that game in Atlanta, it was against a right-handed pitcher.'
Another .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) source
"Torre started Hayes and Fielder, both righthanded batters, against righthander Smoltz, benching struggling lefthanded hitters Boggs and Tino Martinez.
I don't necessarily think Jeter played the game "the right way". We don't know if he was asked to move off of SS, but it feels unlikely that nobody in the Yankees organization realized Arod was the better SS (or that Jeter had many of the right tools to be good in the OF). Jeter often bunted on his own which felt like TRYING to play the right way. I don't believe he moved down in the batting order late in his career, even though he should have.
He also wasn't a very good teammate, at least in interviews. Even if he disliked Arod, for the betterment of the team, his answers could have been different in those postseasons where Arod got inside his own head.
I have no intention of watching the documentary, but the clip where he points out "the yankees won" when comparing himself to Arod is horseshit (damn, I tried to avoid puns). Arod was the better baseball player. Full stop.
Wait, really? I don't care one iota about the Yankees and knew the HR off Kim would be one of the two.
I completely purged the memory of the '98 World Series from my brain because it was incredibly boring, but the 2001 home run? That was a key point in one of the greatest World Series ever played.
This actually doesn't seem that off from snapper because - and I mean this in his defense - as a Yankee fan they're all so relentlessly clubbed to death with marked HISTORIC REAL AMAZING SIGNATURE TRUE Yankee moments some of them just have to end up in the churn.
Wait, really? I don't care one iota about the Yankees and knew the HR off Kim would be one of the two.
Three possible reasons why snapper suppressed that Tino moment:
1. He's old and senile.
2. The Yankees went on to lose the World Series, which wiped out his memories of the 2001 postseason entirely.
3. An inning later, Derek Jeter became "Mr. November" with his game-winning home run just after midnight, and well, we all know snapper's opinion of Jeter.
All of those theories are inherently plausible, but I'd go with #3. Snapper really doesn't like Jeter.
I completely purged the memory of the '98 World Series from my brain because it was incredibly boring, but the 2001 home run? That was a key point in one of the greatest World Series ever played.
Right. And the game 5 sequel with Brosius in the Tino role made both of them even easier to remember in combination. Prior to each of those game tying home runs, the Yankees' win probability stood at 5%. What happened in game 7 was a national tragedy, but it shouldn't erase memories of the two earlier games when America's Team stood tall.
------------------
This actually doesn't seem that off from snapper because - and I mean this in his defense - as a Yankee fan they're all so relentlessly clubbed to death with marked HISTORIC REAL AMAZING SIGNATURE TRUE Yankee moments some of them just have to end up in the churn.
Lassus, that'd be like a Mets fan born before about 1978 forgetting this. Certain moments are just reality checks to test true fandom.
that was awesome, if indeed it was about 2003 and Jeter is saying "'we were better' - that's what losers always say" - one year before his direct contribution to the biggest choke in the history of professional sports. would love to see a followup asking, "So, were the 2004 Red Sox just better than you?"
this probably gets me off the fence to watch the 2 new segments tonight.
:)
in fact, it's "Parts 3 and 4" - maybe 2003 and then 2004? ooh, that would be rich.
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