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Monday, December 07, 2020

Dick Allen, the Chicago White Sox legend who won American League MVP honors in 1972, dies at 78

Former Chicago White Sox first baseman Dick Allen, credited by many for saving the franchise from relocation, died Monday after a long illness. He was 78.

Allen, a seven-time All-Star with the Philadelphia Phillies and the White Sox, arrived on the South Side after the 1971 season following a trade from the Los Angeles Dodgers and made Comiskey Park the place to be.

Attendance at Comiskey had fallen below 500,000 in 1970 and was barely over 830,000 when Allen joined a team that hadn’t won a pennant since 1959 and finished 22½ games out of first place in ’71.

But he helped rejuvenate the club on the field and at the gate in 1972 on his way to being named the American League’s Most Valuable Player. Allen batted .308 with a league-leading 37 home runs, 113 RBIs, 99 walks and a .603 slugging percentage, and he led the majors with a .420 on-base percentage, 1.023 OPS and 199 OPS plus.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: December 07, 2020 at 02:49 PM | 213 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dick allen, obituaries

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   1. BDC Posted: December 07, 2020 at 02:58 PM (#5992918)
I have good memories of Allen as a player - he was the Phillies' big star when we moved to South Jersey in the late '60s, and he later returned to the Phillies and played heads-up baseball for them. I am always alert in HOF threads to point out that he had some problems and was nobody's victim, but he was a good, smart ballplayer, and I have to like somebody who likes horses. RIP.
   2. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:04 PM (#5992920)
RIP... I'm on Bill James side of the discussion when it comes to him, but absolutely nobody I have heard, has said a bad word about him after his retirement.

(note: I'm sure there is a story somewhere, but not enough to penetrate my memory)
   3. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:05 PM (#5992921)
If the Hall hadn't postponed the era voting until next year due to COVID (and I don't know why they couldn't have conducted it virtually), Allen might would have learned of his induction shortly before passing.

RIP Dick.

   4. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:11 PM (#5992922)
The Sports Illustrated cover of Allen in the White Sox dugout smoking a cigarette and juggling baseballs is iconic.
   5. asinwreck Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:27 PM (#5992926)
Maybe the best non-Ali cover in that magazine's history.

Though the Hall will call too late, I am glad he got to know how much he was appreciated in his last years. I'm especially glad he got to see the Phillies retire his number in September.

Allen came to the White Sox in their eighth decade, but his 1972 was the first truly fearsome slugging performance in team history. I'm grateful to him for bringing fans back to Comiskey and, possibly, making sure there was enough interest in the team to keep it from getting moved to Seattle or Denver.
   6. we all water; we all 57i66135 Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:28 PM (#5992927)
... and now he can get into the hall of fame.
   7. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:37 PM (#5992930)

... and now he can get into the hall of fame.


As was the case with Santo, I think he would have gotten in this time anyway. If the Hall hadn't postponed this year's election, the announcement likely would have been made yesterday (the last two Vets results were on Sunday the 9th and Sunday the 10th).
   8. DL from MN Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:46 PM (#5992932)
I don't know why they couldn't have conducted it virtually


I believe they said the reason was they couldn't do the same arm twisting and log rolling that led to Harold Baines getting inducted.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:52 PM (#5992933)
I believe they said the reason was they couldn't do the same arm twisting and log rolling that led to Harold Baines getting inducted.


Yeah, you wouldn't want that to happen.

But it is amusing to think of TLR literally giving other voters the offensively named Indian burns in the committee room.

   10. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2020 at 03:55 PM (#5992934)
his 1972 was the first truly fearsome slugging performance in team history.

I was curious

White Sox top 10

1. Frank Thomas • 1994 212
2. Dick Allen • 1972 199
3. Frank Thomas • 1997 181
4. Frank Thomas • 1991 180
5. Frank Thomas • 1995 179
6. Frank Thomas • 1996 178
7. Frank Thomas • 1993 177
8. Frank Thomas • 1992 174
9. José Abreu • 2014 173
10. Albert Belle • 1998 172
Jack Fournier • 1915 172
Shoeless Joe Jackson • 1920

13. Shoeless Joe Jackson • 1916 166
14. Harold Baines • 1989 165
Eddie Collins • 1915 165
16. Dick Allen • 1974 164
17. Frank Thomas • 2000 163
18. Oscar Gamble • 1977 162
19. Paul Konerko • 2010 160
20. Shoeless Joe Jackson • 1919 159
21. Frank Thomas • 2004 156
22. Chet Lemon • 1981 155
Jim Thome • 2006 155
24. Minnie Minoso • 1954 154
Magglio Ordonez • 2002 154

from 1921-71
24. Minnie Minoso • 1954 154
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5992936)
If you restrict that list to SLG, rather than OPS+, his is the oldest in the Top 10.

   12. . Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:06 PM (#5992940)
Probably wasn't even five feet tall yet -- [strokes chin and ponders], no I wasn't -- but totally dug his 1972 run at the Triple Crown and arguing with my Cub fan friends down the street about Billy Williams who was kind of doing the same thing although nowhere near as close. Was in the tank for him then, remained in the tank for him through today. Clearly should be in the HOF and I find all the WAR adjusting of his ultra-elite bat to be among the most comical of clueless sabermetric pretensions.

Detest how he got racist-ed against so badly in the prime of his career and as time goes on, I find myself more and more concluding that the Kennedy/early Johnson culture in which he unfortunately came to early adult professional life was borderline sick.

Kind of a poignant passing. He deserved better. Hopefully the relatively unanimous testimony of his sporting comrades as to his real essence as a sportsman lifted his spirits and brought him joy in the back nine of his life. RIP.
   13. Traderdave Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:36 PM (#5992945)
absolutely nobody I have heard, has said a bad word about him after his retirement.

=========================

The late Harvey Wallbanger was NOT a fan
   14. philphan Posted: December 07, 2020 at 04:39 PM (#5992947)
Oh man, I am crying right now. One of my all-time favorite Phils. In the 1960s, I got into such arguments with my dad over Richie, and I was so sad to see him traded. Philly was a screwed-up place in that period, and the racism and animosity he faced then was probably insurmountable. (That’s one reason why Curt Flood wanted no part of the place.) But I have always believed that if the Phillies had managed to hold on in 1964 and win the NL and if Richie had made a good showing in the Series, Phillies fans would have loved him to death. But that 1964 collapse was devastating, and the fans were out for blood after that. YMMV. RIP, Richie my friend.
   15. sanny manguillen Posted: December 07, 2020 at 05:54 PM (#5992961)
So it seems that he fell one vote short (11 of 16) in the voting for 2015, and with all the screwing around with the new committees he wasn't on a ballot after that?
   16. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 07, 2020 at 05:56 PM (#5992963)

RIP. He was before my time but from what I understand a truly fearsome hitter.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2020 at 06:03 PM (#5992966)
I remember him since his last Phillies year. he was one cool cat, for sure.

game-used Wampum jersey

Allen wore that one for the A's - it's the name of his hometown
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: December 07, 2020 at 06:05 PM (#5992967)

So it seems that he fell one vote short (11 of 16) in the voting for 2015, and with all the screwing around with the new committees he wasn't on a ballot after that?


No. His era was supposed to be up for a vote this year, but it got pushed back because of the pandemic. I thought he was the most likely candidate to break through that logjam from 2015, given the primary objection to his candidacy through the years has been on character grounds, though the general opinion about him has rather steadily improved over the years among people in the game.

As I mentioned above, if the committee hadn't been pushed back, the results of that election probably would have been revealed yesterday.
   19. AndrewJ Posted: December 07, 2020 at 06:16 PM (#5992968)
Worth noting: Butch Van Breda Kolff once said that Dick Allen at Wampum High was one of the top two or three high school basketball prospects he ever encountered.

His era was supposed to be up for a vote this year, but it got pushed back because of the pandemic. I thought he was the most likely candidate to break through that logjam from 2015, given the primary objection to his candidacy through the years has been on character grounds, though the general opinion about him has rather steadily improved over the years among people in the game.

And Allen working in community relations for the Phillies for over 20 years (I'm certain he got a World Series ring in 2008) didn't hurt in improving his rep.
   20. . Posted: December 07, 2020 at 07:17 PM (#5992972)
One has to now wonder whether Bill James's always kind of inexplicably low opinion of Chuck Tanner as a manager had its genesis in Chuck's full-throated contemporary defense of Dick Allen.

Perusing through the Historical Abstract now (hardcover version), with the caveat that James had Allen as the best player in baseball in 1972, he wrote the following:

If a contest is ever held to determine the biggest horse's ass in baseball history, there are really only seven men, four of them players, who could hope to compete at that level. The four players are Hornsby, Ty Cobb, Dick Allen, and Hal Chase.


So James has Allen as the unchallenged biggest horse's ass player in the history of baseball after like 1930 (and before 2000 when he wrote). While he later refers to Allen as "charming but petulant," his "horse's ass" conclusion is gratuitous and essentially unhinged. One wonders even what real evidence can be adduced for the proposition.

It would have been nice if all the people who spoke on his behalf after Allen retired would have done so while they were all still in the arena; but, who knows, maybe they did but their voices were structurally and institutionally drowned out. Before my time. I can certainly see how that era would drown out voices who spoke in defense of "uppity Negros," so as to perpetuate the narrative that this here guy is one uppity Negro. James sure proved to be far too easy a mark for that bullshit.

   21. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: December 07, 2020 at 08:34 PM (#5992984)
Same age as our (arguable) president-elect. RIP.
   22. Rally Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:52 PM (#5993000)
Mike Schmidt has always spoken highly of Allen.
   23. Dolf Lucky Posted: December 07, 2020 at 09:59 PM (#5993004)
I have a non-enumerated list of players I would have liked to have seen play. The inner circle immortals, of course, but Dick Allen is certainly on that list.

Others include Rube Waddell, Bill Mazeroski, and Vada Pinson.
   24. The Duke Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:01 PM (#5993006)
Continues a terrible year for Hall of Famers ( I consider him one). Baseball players and rock stars are dropping like flies
   25. Hank Gillette Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:22 PM (#5993013)
The late Harvey Wallbanger was NOT a fan


Maybe they can work things out now.
   26. Hank Gillette Posted: December 07, 2020 at 10:23 PM (#5993014)
White Sox top 10

1. Frank Thomas • 1994 212
2. Dick Allen • 1972 199
3. Frank Thomas • 1997 181
4. Frank Thomas • 1991 180
5. Frank Thomas • 1995 179
6. Frank Thomas • 1996 178
7. Frank Thomas • 1993 177
8. Frank Thomas • 1992 174
9. José Abreu • 2014 173
10. Albert Belle • 1998 172
Jack Fournier • 1915 172


Frank Thomas was pretty good.
   27. Posada Posse Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:02 PM (#5993020)
I am saddened by this even though he retired slightly before my time as a baseball fan. Mr. Allen was a terrific ballplayer with HOF ability and credentials that had to deal with the issues we know about, some of which may or may not have been of his own doing. But tell you what, regardless of what you may have thought of him, his Twitter feed was guaranteed to bring a smile to your face if you were a a true baseball fan, with all the photos, stories and birthday wishes relating to his old teammates and friends. It’s obvious that he was very proud to have his number retired by the Phils. RIP
   28. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:27 PM (#5993023)
Frank Thomas was pretty good.

for people who focus on a 7-consecutive-year prime - sure, that works.

and 9 of the top 21 is pretty good as well
   29. DanG Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:34 PM (#5993024)
Highest career OPS+, not in HOF, retiring 2015 or earlier, minimum 6300 PA:

Rk Player       OPS+   PA   WARFrom  To
1 Barry Bonds    182 12606 162.8 1986 2007
2 Mark McGwire   163  7660  62.1 1986 2001
3 Dick Allen     156  7315  58.7 1963 1977
4 Manny Ramirez  154  9774  69.3 1993 2011
5 Lance Berkman  144  7814  51.9 1999 2013
6 Harry Stovey   144  6848  45.2 1880 1893
7 Albert Belle   144  6676  40.1 1989 2000
8 Frank Howard   142  7352  37.6 1958 1973
9 Gary Sheffield 140 10947  60.5 1988 2009 
   30. cardsfanboy Posted: December 07, 2020 at 11:35 PM (#5993025)
nevermind
   31. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:32 AM (#5993035)
Oh man, I am crying right now. One of my all-time favorite Phils. In the 1960s, I got into such arguments with my dad over Richie,
Dick.

EDIT: I mean him, not you. But if you're going to praise him, you might want to honor his wishes regarding his name.
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2020 at 09:21 AM (#5993044)
in the 1960s, the argument - per Topps nomenclature and the general public - was over Richie (or Rich).

he wasn't "Dick" on Topps until 1972.

sure, he never liked "Richie." but in that era, that was the nom de discussion.

if "in the 1960s" wasn't in there, different story. but it would be tough to have an argument over a name that no one knew yet.

:)
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 09:29 AM (#5993047)
if "in the 1960s" wasn't in there, different story.


He also closed with, RIP, Richie My Friend, which was presumably written in the 20s.
   34. DanG Posted: December 08, 2020 at 10:06 AM (#5993052)
Just an all-time great hitter, #15 in OPS+ for his first twelve seasons, minimum 4000 PA:

Rk Player        OPSoWAR  PA  From  Age
11 Joe Jackson    169 53.8 5044 1908 20
-31
12 Albert Pujols  168 78.5 8103 2001 21
-32
13 Frank Thomas   168 65.6 6878 1990 22
-33
14 Tris Speaker   166 70.4 6383 1907 19
-30
15 Dick Allen     165 68.5 6295 1963 21
-32
16 Honus Wagner   164 82.7 6873 1897 23
-34
17 Roger Connor   164 59.2 5920 1880 22
-33
18 Johnny Mize    163 68.3 6729 1936 23
-37
19 Nap Lajoie     163 61.6 5774 1896 21
-32
20 Pete Browning  163 42.4 5305 1882 21
-32
21 Barry Bonds    162 71.8 7403 1986 21
-32
22 Willie McCovey 161 56.3 5858 1959 21
-32
23 Hank Greenberg 161 51.3 5588 1930 19
-35
24 Willie Mays    160 84.9 7337 1951 20
-32
25 Hank Aaron     158 81.0 7855 1954 20
-31
26 Joe DiMaggio   158 71.9 7190 1936 21
-35 
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2020 at 10:18 AM (#5993054)
He also closed with, RIP, Richie My Friend, which was presumably written in the 20s.

did not see that.

well, we're in a quandary now

;)
   36. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 08, 2020 at 11:13 AM (#5993061)
Oh man, I am crying right now. One of my all-time favorite Phils. In the 1960s, I got into such arguments with my dad over Richie, and I was so sad to see him traded. Philly was a screwed-up place in that period, and the racism and animosity he faced then was probably insurmountable. (That’s one reason why Curt Flood wanted no part of the place.) But I have always believed that if the Phillies had managed to hold on in 1964 and win the NL and if Richie had made a good showing in the Series, Phillies fans would have loved him to death. But that 1964 collapse was devastating, and the fans were out for blood after that. YMMV. RIP, Richie my friend.

The Phillies had some popular black Latino players at the time (Tony Taylor, Tony Gonzalez, Ruben Amaro) but Allen was the first black American prospect to stick with the major league team (age 22 in 1964, rookie of the year). They had already traded for Wes Covington as a veteran in 1961, and they brought up John Briggs, Alex Johnson and Grant Jackson a couple years later, and added Bill White when they traded Johnson to the Cardinals after 1965. Anyone know how the fans treated those guys?
   37. Mefisto Posted: December 08, 2020 at 11:16 AM (#5993063)
Seriously? Willie Mays is 24?
   38. DanG Posted: December 08, 2020 at 11:50 AM (#5993072)
Seriously? Willie Mays is 24?
Taking out his defense and baserunning makes Willie look almost mortal.

It's also a statistical fluke. Instead of seasons 1-12 take seasons 3-14 and Willie's OPS+ is 167.
   39. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2020 at 11:53 AM (#5993073)
Any guesses on #10 in DanG's list?
   40. Dolf Lucky Posted: December 08, 2020 at 12:31 PM (#5993080)
Trout?
   41. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 08, 2020 at 12:38 PM (#5993082)
Gotta be someone who retired 2015 or earlier.

Jack Clark?
Jimmy Wynn?
   42. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 12:50 PM (#5993087)
I'll guess Babe Herman. It's probably not, but I never pass up an opportunity to guess Babe Herman.
   43. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 08, 2020 at 12:52 PM (#5993089)
I will also guess Darryl Strawberry, under the theory there weren't many sluggers in the Jack Clark / Darryl Strawberry era so they had high OPS+.
   44. Lassus Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:07 PM (#5993092)
Well, I have no idea, but I'm just curious. Maybe he'll come back and tell us.
   45. Rally Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:24 PM (#5993093)
I knew it couldn't be Strawberry, because I wasn't sure if his career high was big enough to get that high on the list, let alone first 12 seasons. On checking, it wasn't.

I can't guess #10 without starting with the who is in the top 10. So... Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Trout, Mantle, Williams, Hornsby, Foxx,

Now I'm blanking. Maybe some early players like Brouthers or Delahanty?
   46. Rally Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:36 PM (#5993097)
Not Delahanty, but the other 9 I listed are in the top 10. I'm kicking myself for the man I overlooked.
   47. Dolf Lucky Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:39 PM (#5993099)
I did this manually, so there's probably something wrong but here's what I get:

1) Ruth, 211
2) TFB, 191
3) Gehrig, 184
4) Cobb, 182
5) Hornsby, 178
6) Brouthers, 178
7) Trout, 176
8) Mantle, 176
9) Foxx, 172
10) Musial, 172

So the answer is probably Double X or Stan the Man. I didn't do the math to try to break the tie.
   48. BDC Posted: December 08, 2020 at 01:57 PM (#5993103)
They had already traded for Wes Covington as a veteran in 1961, and they brought up John Briggs, Alex Johnson and Grant Jackson a couple years later, and added Bill White when they traded Johnson to the Cardinals after 1965. Anyone know how the fans treated those guys?


I remember Briggs and Jackson as Phillies, and then Larry Hisle, Byron Browne, Oscar Gamble. Now, given I was 10-12 years old at the time, but also given that I followed baseball pretty obsessively … I remember them as just other ballplayers. Most did not flourish till they left Philadelphia if at all, and there was some disappointment in all; but Phillies fans were disappointed in Roger Freed and Denny Doyle and Mike "His limitations are limitless" Anderson too, and for that matter Phillies fans were disappointed in Steve Carlton and Mike Schmidt.
   49. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:05 PM (#5993108)
I knew it couldn't be Strawberry, because I wasn't sure if his career high was big enough to get that high on the list, let alone first 12 seasons. On checking, it wasn't.


You're looking for a different Dan's No 10. Lassus was asking about his list in 29 that stopped at 9. You're looking at his list in 34 that started at 11.

   50. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:06 PM (#5993110)
I did this manually, so there's probably something wrong but here's what I get.


Trout doesn't qualify, since he hasn't played 12 seasons
   51. . Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:08 PM (#5993111)
I don't think you can really measure the Philly fans' reaction to players who were cornerstones in their epic 1964 whiff versus those who weren't. Way before my time, but Philly's the kind of place, like Boston or New York or Chicago, where memories are very long and very harsh. Dick probably caught a little bit of the same "we're never, ever going to be able to forgive" that people like Buckner and Zimmer and Bartman caught. The precise degree to which that weighed in is beyond my current investigatory attention span but if we time machine ourselves back to like 1965-67, we're talking about the residue and residuals of what was virtually certainly the greatest sporting choke job in sports history.
   52. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:09 PM (#5993112)
Any guesses on #10 in DanG's list

No need to guess...


but not sure where he came up with the numbers... using 4000 pa as a minimum, first 12 years of their career I get

<PRE>                                                                                       
Rk                  Player OPS+V   PA    G    R    H  HR  RBI   BB   BA  OBP  SLG   OPS
1                Babe Ruth   211 4942 1198  986 1355 309  944  940 .345 .475 .697 1.171
2             Ted Williams   191 6558 1464 1292 1804 337 1298 1348 .348 .484 .638 1.122
3               Lou Gehrig   184 6851 1538 1341 1966 348 1450 1007 .344 .444 .643 1.087
4                  Ty Cobb   182 6599 1542 1135 2136  57  982  597 .368 .432 .510  .942
5           Rogers Hornsby   178 6619 1534 1080 2083 191 1051  648 .359 .427 .570  .997
6            Dan Brouthers   178 5046 1106 1040 1548  83  820  494 .344 .415 .528  .942
7            Mickey Mantle   176 7199 1675 1340 1821 404 1152 1251 .309 .429 .581 1.009
8               Mike Trout   176 5514 1252  944 1380 302  798  838 .304 .418 .582 1.000
9              Stan Musial   172 7452 1681 1276 2223 257 1127  951 .345 .432 .582 1.014
10             Jimmie Foxx   172 5934 1411 1105 1690 343 1218  886 .339 .440 .639 1.078
11    Shoeless Joe Jackson   169 5044 1186  768 1554  42  671  463 .352 .420 .508  .928
12           Albert Pujols   168 8103 1859 1376 2246 475 1434 1027 .325 .414 .608 1.022
13            Frank Thomas   168 6878 1550 1091 1770 348 1193 1198 .319 .438 .577 1.015
14            Tris Speaker   166 6383 1485  969 1872  43  742  672 .342 .420 .480  .901
15              Dick Allen   165 6295 1491  974 1630 319  977  775 .299 .385 .554  .939
16            Honus Wagner   164 6873 1615 1140 2132  65 1114  538 .346 .406 .498  .904
17            Roger Connor   164 5920 1335 1131 1712  87  890  608 .323 .395 .492  .887
18             Johnny Mize   163 6729 1612 1066 1863 341 1232  797 .317 .403 .578  .981
19              Nap Lajoie   163 5774 1329  999 1910  69 1038  230 .355 .390 .515  .905
20           Pete Browning   163 5305 1180  952 1643  46  657  465 .342 .403 .467  .870
21             Barry Bonds   162 7403 1742 1244 1750 374 1094 1227 .288 .408 .551  .959
22          Willie McCovey   161 5858 1526  858 1400 352  985  809 .283 .387 .557  .944
23          Hank Greenberg   161 5588 1269  975 1528 306 1200  748 .319 .412 .616 1.028
24             Willie Mays   160 7337 1691 1258 2033 406 1179  791 .315 .389 .588  .976
25              Hank Aaron   158 7855 1806 1289 2266 398 1305  663 .320 .376 .567  .943
26            Joe DiMaggio   158 7190 1620 1318 2105 349 1466  729 .329 .401 .589  .990
27          Frank Robinson   156 7651 1786 1248 2004 403 1225  856 .304 .392 .563  .955
28           Manny Ramirez   156 6575 1535 1067 1760 390 1270  874 .316 .411 .599 1.010
29            Mark McGwire   156 5633 1380  811 1201 387  983  890 .260 .382 .556  .938
30            Jeff Bagwell   155 7927 1795 1293 1969 380 1321 1199 .302 .414 .551  .965
31              Joey Votto   155 6764 1575  930 1729 269  897 1104 .311 .427 .530  .957
32                 Mel Ott   155 6646 1589 1131 1775 306 1190  917 .316 .415 .554  .969
33          Miguel Cabrera   154 7811 1819 1165 2186 390 1369  859 .320 .396 .564  .960
34           Eddie Collins   154 6377 1479  998 1725  19  669  766 .329 .420 .427  .846
35           Eddie Mathews   152 7799 1792 1220 1834 422 1166 1155 .280 .387 .535  .922
36             Mike Piazza   152 6007 1461  888 1708 358 1107  598 .319 .388 .572  .959
37               Jim Thome   152 5723 1377  917 1332 334  927  997 .287 .414 .567  .982
38          Charlie Keller   152 4603 1168  725 1085 189  760  784 .286 .410 .518  .928
39          Edgar Martinez   151 5261 1245  794 1389 174  694  780 .318 .424 .520  .943

</PRE>

Provided by <a href="https://www.sports-reference.com/sharing.html?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool">Stathead.com</a>: <a href="https://stathead.com/baseball/season_finder.cgi?utm_source=direct&utm_medium=Share&utm_campaign=ShareTool">View Stathead Tool Used</a><br>Generated 12/8/2020. 



   53. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:12 PM (#5993113)
looking at my list, and curious as to how Cobb or Hornsby didn't make it.

Edit:fixed my list... not sure where the(my) mistake was, but this is more in line with what DanG posted.
   54. Mefisto Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:17 PM (#5993115)
Deleted. Posted before cfb fixed his list.
   55. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:18 PM (#5993116)
Edit: Same as Mefisto.

   56. cardsfanboy Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:25 PM (#5993120)
yep, somewhere there was a mistake, even though I included everything from 1876 and going forward, bb-ref didn't catch it, I should have at least glanced over it for obvious mistakes..


I will say one thing, as a fan of Albert Pujols, it's nice to see he is head and shoulders above everyone on this list in plate appearances. There are only a few batters on this top 39 list that are within even a season in plate appearances. (Musial, Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Bagwell and Mathews... (yes I get some are penalized by this metric because of cups of coffee etc..... )
   57. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:35 PM (#5993124)

Jason Giambi, Norm Cash and Bob Johnson would be in a 3-way tie for #10 on the list that DanG posted in #29 (>=6300 PA, not a HOFer, retired 2015 or earlier) with a 139 OPS+. That's followed by a 3-way tie that includes Darryl Strawberry at 138, and a 4-way tie that includes Jack Clark at 137, so those two weren't bad guesses.
   58. BDC Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:37 PM (#5993125)
I don't think you can really measure the Philly fans' reaction to players who were cornerstones in their epic 1964 whiff versus those who weren't. Way before my time, but Philly's the kind of place, like Boston or New York or Chicago, where memories are very long and very harsh


Possibly, but guys like Chris Short & Johnny Callison were always popular in Philly; Tony Taylor was beloved; Tony Gonzalez was a favorite, and Cookie Rojas. Jim Bunning came back to the Phillies in the early '70s and was well-respected; they had a Jim Bunning Day or maybe Night for him (I was there and I still have a photo of Bunning they gave out at the game).
   59. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:39 PM (#5993126)
Jason Giambi, Norm Cash and Bob Johnson would be in a 3-way tie for #10 on the list that DanG posted in #29 (>=6300 PA, not a HOFer, retired 2015 or earlier) with a 139 OPS+. That's followed by a 3-way tie that includes Darryl Strawberry at 138, and a 4-way tie that includes Jack Clark at 137, so those two weren't bad guesses.


Hey, my guess would have been correct were it not for that random 6,300 PA cutoff. My preferred Babe and his career 141 OPS+ fell 70 PA short of taking the 10th spot.

   60. DanG Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:46 PM (#5993129)
Dolf and cfb got the list in #34 completed.

As for the list in #29, after Sheffield there are three guys at 139: Bob Johnson, Norm Cash and Jason Giambi. Then three more at 138: Mike Tiernan, Darryl Strawberry and Carlos Delgado. And five more at 137: Sherry Magee, Reggie Smith, Jack Clark, Will Clark and Brian Giles.

I used a 6300 PA cutoff (rather than 6000) because it gave us everyone within 1000 PA of Allen. It also bumped off the list Jack Fournier (142) and Babe Herman (141), who are in no one's hall of fame.
   61. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 08, 2020 at 02:50 PM (#5993131)
I thought Brian Giles was a surprise. Then I saw Mike Tiernan. Never heard of him in my life.
   62. 185/456(GGC) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:26 PM (#5993149)
I don't think you can really measure the Philly fans' reaction to players who were cornerstones in their epic 1964 whiff versus those who weren't. Way before my time, but Philly's the kind of place, like Boston or New York or Chicago, where memories are very long and very harsh. Dick probably caught a little bit of the same "we're never, ever going to be able to forgive" that people like Buckner and Zimmer and Bartman caught. The precise degree to which that weighed in is beyond my current investigatory attention span but if we time machine ourselves back to like 1965-67, we're talking about the residue and residuals of what was virtually certainly the greatest sporting choke job in sports history.


In light of the last NFL undefeated team losing last night, I groused to my brother about Larry Csonka of the 14-0 Dolphins having a role in the Miracle at the Meadowlands later in his career.
   63. 185/456(GGC) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:29 PM (#5993152)
I find myself more and more concluding that the Kennedy/early Johnson culture in which he unfortunately came to early adult professional life was borderline sick.


At the risk of opening up a can of worms, I'd like to know more about this. But if the rest of you want me to STFU, so be it.
   64. alilisd Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:49 PM (#5993163)
It also bumped off the list Jack Fournier (142) and Babe Herman (141), who are in no one's hall of fame.


Judging by SoSH's comments, I'm not so sure of that. :-)

   65. alilisd Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:50 PM (#5993164)
I will say one thing, as a fan of Albert Pujols, it's nice to see he is head and shoulders above everyone on this list in plate appearances.


Man that is impressive!
   66. Walt Davis Posted: December 08, 2020 at 03:56 PM (#5993168)
Back to Dick Allen. The buzz in Chicago in 72 was off the charts and made a strong impression on 10-year-old me but I hated the White Sox so I didn't fully succumb. Still, in those innocent times, on bat day at Comiskey they gave away a real bat to the first X,000 kids. A Dick Allen bat (pretty sure it was Dick not Rich or Richie) which I had for a very long time. I wonder what ever happened to it?

On the White Sox, if memory serves until Frank Thomas, Bill Melton held the franchise career HR record at 154. He's still at #9. One of the differences between the Cubs and Sox for most of the post-war period is that while both teams generally were bad, the Cubs almost always had at least one genuine all-star player that they usually held onto for several years. Allen wasn't around long, Zisk/Gamble was just one season, Kittle and Hoyt were a flash in the pan. Wilbur Wood was about the only long-serving, consistently excellent Sox player. The Cubs had Banks, Williams, Santo, Fergie, Reuschel, Sutter, Sandberg, Dawson, Maddux, Sosa and even short-timer Madlock won two batting titles.

Other than "it's a baseball game" (which is a darn good reason), there wasn't any particular reason to go see the Sox -- the stadium went from being a hole to being bland, no real stars, bad team, you weren't gonna hang around after the game was over. They did play at night which was helpful until the 90s.
   67. DanG Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:00 PM (#5993171)
Then I saw Mike Tiernan. Never heard of him in my life.
Tiernan got a lot of scrutiny in the early elections for the Hall of Merit, getting his peak support in the 1906 election. Many voters saw him as a slightly lesser version of Sam Thompson, who was eventually elected to the HoM.

Tiernan was a legit offensive force, playing at an all-star level in about 7 seasons. He was the fifth player to reach 100 career HR, in 1897. Not a HOF candidate, as he had little defensive value and aged poorly, playing his last game at 32.
   68. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:03 PM (#5993172)
Then I saw Mike Tiernan. Never heard of him in my life.

he was a contender for a HOM spot for many years, though George Van Haltren, Hugh Duffy, and Jimmy Ryan got even closer.

ultimately they just cannibalized each other's votes:

Ryan a Cubs forerunners OF 1885-1900 (1890 Chicago Pirates Players League)

Tiernan a NY Giants OF 1887-99

Van Haltren a NY Giants OF 1894-1903

Duffy mainly Boston Beaneaters 1892-1900
   69. SoSH U at work Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:05 PM (#5993174)
Judging by SoSH's comments, I'm not so sure of that. :-)


You ain't kidding. Babe Herman is not just the starting leftfielder on my all-time favorite team, he's the captain (though he ain't wearing that ridiculous C, Varitek).
   70. . Posted: December 08, 2020 at 04:55 PM (#5993189)
Other than "it's a baseball game" (which is a darn good reason), there wasn't any particular reason to go see the Sox -- the stadium went from being a hole to being bland, no real stars, bad team, you weren't gonna hang around after the game was over. They did play at night which was helpful until the 90s.


I did a college road trip with a couple buddies in August 1983 to take in two Sox-Tigers games at Comiskey when both teams were still in first place. (Sox stayed there, Tigers didn't.) Great baseball, great buzz, major sociological takeaway 37 years later was that that was still a time when baseball was very, very much still a working man/woman's game, including within the stadiums. (*) Certainly it was that way in the Rust Belt, anyway.

(*) One of those things that only really became clear once it changed. Going to a baseball game in Detroit or the south side of Chicago and consciously recognizing, "Hey, I'm at a baseball game and I'm around a bunch of beer and proles" would have been like "Hey, I'm at a baseball game and I'm breathing air." One of Bill James's best observations was the (paraphrased) one where he noted that for many years he went to baseball games and there were a bunch of drunks and proles around and then kind of all of a sudden he went to baseball games and there weren't. Probably a combination of MADD, the aging of the country, changing mores, and the corporations and the money getting hold of the baseball (*) business. The US in those days was really, really young (**) and the young tended to have the run of the place in places like Comiskey Park. (See, e.g., Disco Demolition Night.) That ... did not last.

(*) And other sports.

(**) Which explains probably like 50%-plus of the sky-high crime rates then.
   71. 185/456(GGC) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 07:06 PM (#5993220)
Don't forget nickel beer night in Cleveland.

As a kid, I recall going to Fenway and some guy near us had a stack of emptied wax paper cups. Not sure what the going rate was for Bud back then. I was probably 10.
   72. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: December 08, 2020 at 10:07 PM (#5993244)
He was a hard man. I am descended from hard people. None of us were great hitters, which is why none of us are in the Hall.

I can see arguments against him based on his defense, or the relative brevity of his career. But the world is full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the further one gets from Missoula, Montana. Ain't a reason to keep a player of his abilities out.
   73. baxter Posted: December 08, 2020 at 10:19 PM (#5993247)
66 Melton also held the Sox single season record w/33, which he did twice (Allen broke the record); anyone know who held the record before Melton for the Chisox? The record sticks out for how low the number was, obviously lower than 33, 29 I believe.

Melton was good for a year; then he hurt his back, which ultimately did not prevent the Angels from signing him as a free agent.

Allen was a heck of a hitter, big step up from Gail Hopkins.
   74. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:18 AM (#5993273)
I think Dick Allen is a Hall of Famer, and there have been numerous debates on these pages about it over the years. The 11 years that makes up most of his career (1964-1974) are pretty amazing offensive numbers, including one of the most dominant, memorable seasons (1972) in history. The fact he was doing this during some years of historically-low offensive numbers has dampened the counting totals a little bit,and I know there isn't much around those 11 years, but here's what I don't exactly get:

Many, many people are OK with starting pitchers getting into the HOF based on a short career, with a high peak (Koufax being most prominent among them), but there is generally not the same sentiment for position players with a similar career arch (maybe Ralph Kiner is the prominent exception in the HOF).

To me, if a guy like Roy Halladay is a first-ballot guy, then how the heck is Dick Allen not even in?
   75. Rally Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:13 AM (#5993297)
Allen was a HOF level hitter, but he was a crap fielder. I've looked at defensive statistics in a lot of ways. Some published, like TotalZone. Others not published. Pretty much any way I come up with to look at fielding, he was bad. I'm not saying it was bad enough that he should be kept out. Just that looking at the total player, offense and defense, he wasn't better than a guy like Bobby Grich. Grich was a good hitter, not at Allen's level, but was a plus rather than a minus on the defensive side. Both had relatively short careers, though Grich was a bit longer, about 10% more PA. I never saw Allen as the single greatest omission from the HOF.

That said, he is certainly in a group of the most deserving players on the outside, and I would fully support him going in. I am greatly saddened that he will not be around to enjoy his induction day. Kind of like the Ron Santo and Marvin Miller situations. It just seems wrong and cruel to deny a man so many times and then let him in right after he passes. A little different that a Deacon White situation which strikes me as more comical, inducted 70+ years after he died.
   76. Mefisto Posted: December 09, 2020 at 11:11 AM (#5993316)
I just pulled up the BBREF pages for Allen and McCovey in order to compare them. I used Allen 1964-74 and McCovey 1959-74 as the relevant years, since their respective cases are pretty much built on those years. The differences I noted were:

1. McCovey had an extra 1232 PAs. That's quite a few, more so because Allen's career is pretty short by this measure.

2. McCovey's counting stats are, partly in consequence, much more impressive (e.g., 435 HR to 319). Allen's advantage is in rate stats (165 OPS+ to 159).

3. Surprisingly to me, McCovey's defense was better than Allen's: -52 rfield v. -98.

4. That defense essentially accounts for the WAR difference between them: 62.6 for McCovey v. 58.3 for Allen.

Overall, it's not clear to me that there's any obvious difference between their cases; I doubt that 4 WAR over a career is meaningful, especially since it's entirely dependent on defense. But if you value career length or compilation of counting stats, then McCovey does stand out quite a bit. Then too, the line has to be drawn somewhere and that will always make for hard cases.
   77. DanG Posted: December 09, 2020 at 11:28 AM (#5993320)
any way I come up with to look at fielding, he was bad. I'm not saying it was bad enough that he should be kept out. Just that looking at the total player, offense and defense, he wasn't better than a guy like Bobby Grich. Grich was a good hitter, not at Allen's level, but was a plus rather than a minus on the defensive side. Both had relatively short careers, though Grich was a bit longer, about 10% more PA. I never saw Allen as the single greatest omission from the HOF.

That said, he is certainly in a group of the most deserving players on the outside, and I would fully support him going in. I am greatly saddened that he will not be around to enjoy his induction day. Kind of like the Ron Santo and Marvin Miller situations. It just seems wrong and cruel to deny a man so many times and then let him in right after he passes.
I'll sign off on this. In every survey I've ever done, Allen and Grich end up among the most deserving HOF omissions. They're easily over the line, mid-level HOF types.

Here's the latest survey, from a ranking project currently running, of the most deserving players eligible for HOF election:

1 - Barry Bonds
2 - Roger Clemens
3 - Manny Ramirez
4 - Curt Schilling
5 - Mark McGwire
6 - Bill Dahlen
7 - Ross Barnes
8 - Lou Whitaker
9 - Bobby Grich
10 - Rafael Palmeiro
11 - Dick Allen
12 - Scott Rolen
13 - Jim Edmonds
14 - Gary Sheffield
15 - Kevin Brown
16 - Jack Glasscock
17 - Andruw Jones
18 - Dobie Moore
19 - Reggie Smith
20 - David Cone

All of these players are in the Hall of Merit.
   78. Rally Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:09 PM (#5993327)
Surprisingly to me, McCovey's defense was better than Allen's: -52 rfield v. -98.


Primarily because Allen was playing tougher positions.

We still have some people on this site with strong opinions on Derek Jeter's lack of defense. But I think people would at least admit that Jeter was a better fielder than Frank Thomas, even if rfield has Jeter as the worst of all time and some think the stat is actually overrating him.
   79. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:13 PM (#5993328)
WTF is a Dobie Moore?
   80. Rally Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:19 PM (#5993330)
On McCovey vs. Allen, I'd chalk it up to Willie getting to 500 homers while Allen didn't even reach 400. At the time of McCovey's induction nobody knew what his WAR or win shares were. And it was before steroids was something that baseball fans and writers reacted strongly to. (1986, so Canseco had been using for 2 years at this point.)

It was before the 1990s sillyball era. So I don't think there was any chance that someone with 500 homers was going to be kept out without extreme negatives. If Kingman had hit 500, his complete uselessness in every other phase of the game would have kept him out. Later steroids keeps people out. Killebrew took 4 ballots, but he debuted at 60%, it was obvious he was going to get in. McCovey didn't have anywhere close to enough negatives that would have stopped him from getting in.

Willie wasn't a good defender either, but at least he was a complete hitter and got on base, unlike Kong. I wonder if the nickname "stretch" helped his image a bit. It seems like something you'd call a good defender, you wouldn't give that nickname to Dick "Dr. Strangeglove" Stuart.
   81. Mefisto Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:21 PM (#5993331)
@78: Fair, though Allen didn't really distinguish himself at 1B either. Still, that could be seen as another reason to consider McCovey a legitimate comp.

ETA: @80 Yeah, I think counting stats explain the original selection easily enough. I guess the issue now is how the VC will evaluate players.
   82. DanG Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:21 PM (#5993332)
a Dobie Moore?
TTF is a Dobie Moore.
   83. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2020 at 12:43 PM (#5993339)
   84. sunday silence (again) Posted: December 09, 2020 at 01:58 PM (#5993372)
I find myself more and more concluding that the Kennedy/early Johnson culture in which he unfortunately came to early adult professional life was borderline sick.


I too would like to know more about "Kennedy/early Johnson" culture.

What is it? Wearing top hats and having slacks that don't cut you in the nuts?
   85. sunday silence (again) Posted: December 09, 2020 at 02:03 PM (#5993374)

Allen was a heck of a hitter, big step up from Gail Hopkins.


Hopkins became a doctor I believe. On the HR record, I'll guess.... Zeke BOnura?
   86. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2020 at 02:05 PM (#5993375)
I too would like to know more about "Kennedy/early Johnson" culture.


No, you wouldn't.
   87. . Posted: December 09, 2020 at 02:41 PM (#5993388)
Just that looking at the total player, offense and defense, he wasn't better than a guy like Bobby Grich.


Oh, come on now with this already. We've had our fun, we've poked at collective wisdom, slain some sacred cows, pored over our charts and our aggregates, ridiculed Murray Chass ... the point's been made. Some stupid #### was said about baseball BITD, but it's been well nigh 30 years now and it's time to get back to normalcy and sense. It's time. At long last, it's time.
   88. alilisd Posted: December 09, 2020 at 05:14 PM (#5993432)
You ain't kidding. Babe Herman is not just the starting leftfielder on my all-time favorite team, he's the captain (though he ain't wearing that ridiculous C, Varitek).


Ha!!!
   89. alilisd Posted: December 09, 2020 at 05:15 PM (#5993433)
Here's the latest survey, from a ranking project currently running, of the most deserving players eligible for HOF election:


Pleased to see Allen ranking well here! Was Lofton considered? A bit surprised the didn't make top 20.
   90. Booey Posted: December 09, 2020 at 05:30 PM (#5993436)
Yeah, I'd rank Lofton higher than at least the last 5 players on that list. Dwight Evans would have cracked my top 20 too. And hell, I'd probably have Sosa in my top 10, but that's giving him a lot of narrative credit (we are talking about the HOF and not the HoM, right?)

Edit: Also a little surprised Nettles isn't on there
   91. baxter Posted: December 09, 2020 at 06:36 PM (#5993448)
85. Bonura is incorrect, but very warm; he did at one point hold the single season Chisox RBI record; just looked it up; he is still 3rd at 138. Bonura played the same position as the record holder. There is a also a commonality with a "Z"
   92. alilisd Posted: December 09, 2020 at 06:46 PM (#5993449)
Dwight Evans would have cracked my top 20 too. And hell, I'd probably have Sosa in my top 10, but that's giving him a lot of narrative credit (we are talking about the HOF and not the HoM, right?)

Edit: Also a little surprised Nettles isn't on there


Another three good choices. Love Evans as a VC selection, and Sosa has the narrative if you look past the PED issues. I have a real soft spot for Nettles as he was both a native San Diegan and on the 1984 team. Easy to see why the writers missed him. Always a low BA hitter, and they just didn't appreciate the way his BB's and power offset that during his time. But, wow!, if you believe those defensive numbers, you gotta put him in!
   93. SoSH U at work Posted: December 09, 2020 at 07:06 PM (#5993450)
But, wow!, if you believe those defensive numbers, you gotta put him in!


As someone who grew up watching the Yankee game nightly (and rooting against them in every single contest), those numbers are very believable.
   94. Jobu is silent on the changeup Posted: December 09, 2020 at 07:54 PM (#5993456)
#82 - Thank you.
   95. BDC Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:40 PM (#5993468)
Zernial :)
   96. DanG Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:56 PM (#5993471)
I'd rank Lofton higher than at least the last 5 players on that list. Dwight Evans would have cracked my top 20 too. And hell, I'd probably have Sosa in my top 10, but that's giving him a lot of narrative credit (we are talking about the HOF and not the HoM, right?)

Edit: Also a little surprised Nettles isn't on there
The project I referenced in #77 is being run under Hall of Merit sort of criteria, and not Hall of Fame sort of criteria. So Sosa's narrative doesn't move the needle much, if any.

The gang voting there favors more of a peak orientation to merit, so guys like Evans and Nettles didn't do as well as you or I might rank them. Here's the next 20 eligible non hall of famers we ranked:

21 - Dick Redding
22 - Wes Ferrell
23 - Luis Tiant
24 - Charlie Keller
25 - Bret Saberhagen
26 - Minnie Minoso
27 - Paul Hines
28 - Dwight Evans
29 - Kenny Lofton
30 - Ken Boyer

Again, all of the above are in the Hall of Merit except Lofton, who will make it in the next election.

31 - Keith Hernandez
32 - Johan Santana
33 - Joe Start
34 - Thurman Munson
35 - Urban Shocker
36 - Graig Nettles
37 - Todd Helton
38 - Willie Randolph
39 - Grant Johnson
40 - Sammy Sosa

Santana, Munson, Shocker and Sosa are not in the HoM.
   97. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: December 09, 2020 at 08:58 PM (#5993472)
To pick at the nittiest of nits, Ross Barnes isn't eligible for the hall of fame. Although his career began in 1871 and finished in 1881, he missed 1878 and 1880, so he's got only nine years.

To get even nittier, does the hall recognize the NA as a major league? Depending on the answer, by their lights, Barnes might have only four seasons of big league experience.

But I agree he should be in. Just waive the rule, he was the most dominant player of the pro game's early years.
   98. Rally Posted: December 09, 2020 at 09:15 PM (#5993475)
Exceptions have been made. Addie Joss only played 9 years.
   99. Ron J Posted: December 09, 2020 at 09:32 PM (#5993478)
#9 When I was there (many years ago) the NA was not regarded as a major league by the HOF.

And if Barnes ever makes it, it would be at least in part as a pioneer. And all bets are off in that case.
   100. sanny manguillen Posted: December 09, 2020 at 10:58 PM (#5993485)
It seems Denis Menke has also died, at 80. The death was December 1.
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