He remained visible in Pittsburgh for decades, broadcasting Pitt basketball. RIP

As I said in the omnichatter, the Pirates put 19 players and managers in their new Hall of Fame last year, of whom only three were alive. Groat was among four selected this year, but won't make the ceremony in August.

Interestingly, he's already on the In Memoriam list on basketball-reference's main page, but not yet baseball-reference's.

I suppose his time in the NBA is one of those childhood trivia things I've forgotten. Just one partial season but 25 minutes a game, 12 pts, 3 reb, 3 assists for ye olde Zollner Pistons. He squeezed in 415 PA for the Pirates that year too, then off to the service for two years.

As I posted when either Bill Virdon or Frank Thomas the First died, the Pirates of the late 1950s/early 1960s had remarkable longevity. In addition to Groat and those two living two decades into the 21st century, Mazeroski, Elroy Face, Bobby Shantz and Vern Law are still with us.

#4: Roman Mejias, who joined the Pirates in 1955 and stayed in the organization until Houston grabbed him in the expansion draft, also passed away this year. It's now believed Mejias reached the majors at 29, and lived to 97.

I wonder how many Cardinals are left from 1964 team. I think Javier, Maxvill, Shannon, White and Washburn are still with us

I wonder how many Cardinals are left from 1964 team. I think Javier, Maxvill, Shannon, White and Washburn are still with us

And Bob Uecker!

Simmons and McCarver just passed from that '64 Cards team

It surprised me to look up that Roger Craig was on the 64 Cards; still alive (knew he was alive; didn't realized he played for StL).
Ed Speizio; still around; not surprising; only in his early 80's.
It surprised me to learn that Mike Cuellar was on the 64 Cards (deceased)
Also, many players deceased never realized had died, Ray Sadecki, must have missed his obit. Johnny Lewis whom I thought of as a Met; also deceased.
Enjoy it while you can.

RIP.

Easily the best baseball player from Duke University (36.8 bWAR), second best by WAR is a 1930s player named Billy Werber (26.0), who I'd never heard of. Marcus Stroman (21.6) will likely pass Werber in the next couple of seasons.

Werber was the best base stealer in the mid 30s when base stealing wasnt very prevalent, so perhaps he would be somewhat underrated in an environment with more emphasis on speed. He is a pretty well known player.

Yeah, Werber had a very interesting career. He was considered the leader of the Reds' "Jungle Cat" infield (he was "Tiger") that won two pennants and ring in '39-'40. He was also a considered a red ass and clubhouse lawyer.

Werber played basketball at Duke (and was its first All-American), so he has a lot in common with Groat.

Werber was also the Babe's last living teammate. He died in 2009 at 100.

Interesting facts on Werber, thank you! Besides the steals, he had a great eye, nearly 2x as many career walks as K's, and a .364 career OBP.

he had a great eye, nearly 2x as many career walks as K's

First I'd heard of Werber too. The above is true and impressive but the context makes it less impressive -- for his career, MLB average was to walk (8.4%) more than you K'd (7.5%). Still he was a bit better than average on Ks and much better than average in BBs. Also unusual in that he was traded/sold a lot -- Yanks to Red Sox to A's to Reds to Giants. Maybe that's where the red ass comes in. Very up and down production wise too, by WAR: 5.4, 2.7, 1.5, 3.4, 1.6, 4.0, 4.8, 1.5 ...

from his SABR bio (there's plenty, some better, some worse): An inveterate letter writer, he sometimes wrote the baseball commissioner complaining about such issues as the length of modern baseball games, the long hair of some ballplayers, and the singing of the National Anthem by women.

Werber was the second player from Duke to play in the major leagues. The first was Wade Lefler, who struck out in his one at bat with the Braves in 1924 and then went to the Senators late in the season. He only had 8 plate appearances with the Senators, but three of them were big pinch hits for a team that won the AL by two games. His SABR bio says newspaper reports during the World Series said Lefler was responsible for the Nats playing in the Series. He wasn't eligible for the World Series roster and didn't make it back to the major leagues after that, finishing with a 1.444 career OPS.

Very up and down production wise too, by WAR

Not to get too opinionated on a guy I never saw play or really even study, its possible the statistics are not capturing all his value. He shows good TZ numbers most seasons and those probably dont capture all his value. He was very good on the bases and Im not convinced the RBaser numbers are solid. So his best skills were those things that may not be measured by the primitive methods we have. Also the bases taken numbers seem to not be counted correctly for a numbers of years about that time, I mentioned it in one of the other threads. I get the feeling he was pretty good but I cant say I ever recall old timers talking about him.

Dick Groat broke in with the 1952-53 Fort Wayne Zollner Pistons, and was a teammate of Dwight "Dike" Eddleman, whose first pro team was the 1949-50 Tri-Cities Blackhawks. The Blackhawks (now the Atlanta Hawks) were coached by a guy named Arnold "Red" Auerbach, who was named "Second Team All-Brooklyn" back in 1933.

Also, Groat played baseball.

The 60's saw some terrific baseball-basketball combos: Groat, Dave Debuscherre, Gene Conley, Bob Gibson were all great hoopsters. Lou Brock also played a few games for the Harlem Globetrotters.

17. Ron Reed also played NBA/MLB; good pitcher. heck of an accomplishment to play two pro sports.

Dick Groat broke in with the 1952-53 Fort Wayne Zollner Pistons, and was a teammate of Dwight "Dike" Eddleman, whose first pro team was the 1949-50 Tri-Cities Blackhawks. The Blackhawks (now the Atlanta Hawks) were coached by a guy named Arnold "Red" Auerbach, who was named "Second Team All-Brooklyn" back in 1933.

Bill Hillgrove was Groat's long time partner doing the Pitt basketball radio broadcasts. He said that once back in the early 80s Pitt was in Boston playing two games with a day off in between. On the day off Groat took Hillgrove to a Celtics practice, because Groat knew Auerbach. When the practice was over Groat and Auerback were talking and Hillgrove walked up to them. Hillgrove claims that Auerbach said to him, I don't think you know how good a basketball player your partner was. And Hillgrove responded by saying something like he was a pretty good player. And Auerback said if he would have stuck with the big ball instead of that damned small ball he would have been a better player than Cousy. And if you ever tell anyone I said that I'll deny it.

The 60's saw some terrific baseball-basketball combos: Groat, Dave Debuscherre, Gene Conley, Bob Gibson were all great hoopsters. Lou Brock also played a few games for the Harlem Globetrotters.

Steve Hamilton of "Folly Floater" fame as well.

Tim Stoddard didn't play in the NBA, but he was on NC State's 1974 championship team and started in the final.

Yeah, I had Ron Reed on the 70s MLB hoops team, but the 60s team might need him more. The 70's team would give the 60s team problems down low: Tim Stoddard, Jim Bibby, and Dave Winfield make an imposing frontcourt.

I never made the connection between Jim and Henry Bibby, who were brothers.

Unfortunately 6 needs an update with the passing of Mike Shannon.

I remember him at the tail end of his playing career.

Never listened to the local StL broadcasts; I assume there will be a thread on him, but since there are some big Cards fans here, what was he like as a broadcaster?

Danny Ainge could squeak onto the 1970s team - he played a few seasons for the Blue Jays starting in 1979, and played basketball for BYU from 1977-1981. But really he's an 80s guy.

And RIP to Groat. 26 PPG with 7.6 APG and 7.6 RPG as a senior at Duke. I can believe he would have been an excellent NBA player.

Tim Stoddard didn't play in the NBA, but he was on NC State's 1974 championship team and started in the final.

Two individuals played in both the Final Four and the World Series, Tim Stoddard and Kenny Lofton. They both went to the same defunct high school in East Chicago Indiana, EC Washington.

Groat's 1960 honor is often mentioned in "Worst MVP Ever" lists, but I don't think it deserves the near-universal scorn.

RK 1960 WAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB BB BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+
1 Groat 6.2 138 573 85 186 26 4 2 50 0 39 .325 .371 .394 .766 110
2 Hoak 5.4 155 553 97 156 24 9 16 79 3 74 .282 .366 .445 .810 120
3 Mays 9.5 153 595 107 190 29 12 29 103 25 61 .319 .381 .555 .936 160

Sure, Mays was once again the best player in the league. But the writers were going to give it to a member of the Pirates, who in 1960 captured their first pennant in 35 years. A brilliant shortstop, Groat was their best player and acknowledged on-field leader. While he fares poorly in comparison to Mays, there is a kernel of logic to his selection (not so much for Hoak’s runner-up status). Groat hit well for his position (claiming the batting title, when the batting title meant something) and anchored a spectacular defense (with Hoak, second baseman Bill Mazeroski and catcher Smokey Burgess among the best at their respective positions). If not for first baseman Dick Stuart, this could have been the best defensive unit to ever man an infield.**

**Admittedly, this is like saying “Except for the singing, dancing, acting, and costumes, I loved the show.”

Yeah, it wasn't even the worst in the NL in the early 60's. That would be Maury Wills in 1962. Which is doubly egregious because that year the Giants DID win the pennant. Ken Boyer in 64 was no prize either.

Wills could have stolen 200 bases and not been as valuable as Willie Mays in 1962.

As for 1964: Terrible. Mays is the best player in the league by a league, generates 11 WAR, and finishes sixth in the voting. How good is 11 WAR? There are only 10 seasons of 11+ WAR by a position player since integration (Bonds was the last to do it in 2002). St. Louis third baseman Ken Boyer leads the league in RBI (and the Cardinals lead the league in wins) and gets the glory.

The 1964 pennant race, won by St. Louis on the final day of the season, is among the most thrilling of all-time, with the Reds and Phillies finishing a single game out of the running. The Giants finished fourth, only three games out. The Cards stormed to the pennant on the strength of a 22-10 record over the final month of the season (and a stunning Phillies collapse). Boyer did his part, hitting .270/.371/.533 during this frenetic stretch drive – solid, but hardly the engine that drove the Cards to the finish. That engine was Bob Gibson, who started eight games (and added a four-inning relief appearance) the final month of the season. Gibby's line for the month: 7-2/1.95 ERA/73.2 IP(!) If the writers insisted on giving the MVP to a Cardinal, Gibson (19-12/3.01/245K, 6 WAR) was the best pick (but not the right pick; that would be Mays).

How can people talk about baseball-basketball players, and leave out the Rifleman himself, Chuck Connors? Admittedly a Decade plus before the ones you are talking about, but still . . .

Billy Werber did a memoir with Paul Rogers of the DFW SABR chapter, Memories of a Ballplayer. It is a very good look back at baseball of his era – Werber was about 90 years old when they worked on it.

In one sense Boyer was the worst of the 3: he finished 7th in position player WAR that year, while Groat was 6th and Wills at least in 4th. All 3 winners basically had 6 WAR seasons, while the guy who should have won was, well, a LOT better.

Groat is another "What if" player, losing his age 22 and 23 seasons to military service. Give him those two years of development and he may have learned to hit MLB pitching sooner than age 26.

Yankees outfielder Irv Noren was another pro basketball player. When he was a young Dodgers farmhand he played in three games with Chicago in the NBL in 1946-47. Branch Rickey ordered him to cut it out and focus on baseball.

31 Yes; any one aware of Connors' NBA first?

Groat and Bob Friend owned/ran a golf course out by Ligoner PA.
A good buddy of mine decided to play the course and when he went to pay for his playing fee was surprised to see Dick Groat working the cash register.
My pal correctly gave Dick props for both his 1960 MVP, winning the 1960 series and then went on to say he was keenly aware of how good a college hoopster Dick was as well.
Groat kept focusing on some issues with the course that day, not even acknowledging my buddy’s praises.
Finally he said…”that was a long time ago”; enjoy your round”.
Suffice it to say Groat had probably heard a similar spiel hundreds of times over the years and now, in his mid 80’s was focused on the here and now not 60 years prior.
Interesting that two old Pirate players developed a relationship that led them to go into business at an advanced age.

The 60's saw some terrific baseball-basketball combos: Groat, Dave Debuscherre, Gene Conley, Bob Gibson were all great hoopsters. Lou Brock also played a few games for the Harlem Globetrotters.

He didn’t have much impact as a pro, and he didn’t do baseball, but at the college level no one topped Terry Baker at the two-sport combo. He won the Heisman Trophy as a senior at Oregon State in 1962, then in the spring semester led the basketball team to the Final Four.

Perhaps too obvious to have been mentioned, but another college basketball star was Jackie Robinson at UCLA. Oddly enough, Robinson's two seasons there (1939-41) were during the worst stretch ever for UCLA basketball, but he was their standout player. Robinson was of course pretty good at football and track as well …