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Friday, July 18, 2008

Did Manny tank an at bat?

“Manny was fined six figures to go to a charity,” Lobel said this morning on sports radio WEEI. “That got [Manny’s] attention ... he became a petulant child by being punished. No matter what the crime was, pushing an employee, that was the issue ... he acted out [after they fined him]. They got his attention. He doesn’t like to be punished in any way, shape, or form… “

Lobel’s strong words didn’t stop there. He went on to say that there was a perception that in a pinch-hit at bat at Yankee Stadium on July 6—more than a week after the incident with McCormick—Ramirez took three straight called strikes to send a message to the Sox.

“The thing that most people are forgetting and haven’t talked about is the strikeout in Yankee Stadium,” Lobel said. “The bat on the shoulder for the three pitches from Mariano Rivera. That was a big [expletive] to the Red Sox after the fine. I’m just telling you ... there are things in the front office that are perceived ... I’m saying that there is a strong feeling that that [three-pitch strikeout] was the message to the Red Sox and it’s a strong feeling that that’s unacceptable ... there’s a feeling that he didn’t give it his all, let’s put it that way ... I’m just saying the front office has not forgotten that moment. It’s akin to Nomar sitting on the bench [in a game in which Derek Jeter dove into the stands at Yankee Stadium in 2004]. It’s the same thing. It’s an at-bat that resonated very strongly in the front office.”

 

 

 

Is this the beginning of the end of Manny in Boston? Will Jessica love Chester’s alien twin brother? This and more on the next episode of Soap.

SteveM. Posted: July 18, 2008 at 04:20 PM | 148 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: red sox

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   1. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:30 PM (#2863825)
Is Lobel credible or is he just another Boston scribe talking out of his ass?
   2. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:33 PM (#2863829)
I really don't know, but I recall Mo made some comment after the game implying that he didn't know what Manny was doing in that AB.
   3. ??'s Biggest Fan! Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:35 PM (#2863830)
I had the same thought when I watched the replay the morning after the game. Manny's been too good against Yankees pitching to not take a hack in that at-bat.

But even if this was true, I'd still take him in a heart beat over A-Rod in a high leverage plate appearance.
   4. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:35 PM (#2863831)
I recall that Lobel was the sports figure who was mocked (or, arguably, libeled) as a drunk in Get Fuzzy. So I don't think his credibility is high.

On the other hand, I remember reading Mike Hargrove saying that Manny would sometimes do this exact same thing with the Indians, not out of anger, but just Manny being Manny. So who the hell knows?
   5. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:41 PM (#2863838)
The reason it seems like bs to me is the way it's couched. He won't say Manny threw away the at-bat - he just says there's a "perception" that he did. i.e. unverifiable character assassination.
   6. Mister High Standards Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:42 PM (#2863839)
Sounds like the usual redsox BS of spreading propaganda prior to them showing a player the door... Classic Larry Lucky.
   7. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:46 PM (#2863843)
All that may be true, but this is from the NYT and post-game comments:

Francona disagreed with the suggestion that Ramirez took a passive approach, but Rivera was surprised.

“Definitely, I was surprised he didn’t take the bat off his shoulder,” Rivera said.

“I don’t know what he was thinking. That’s Manny.”


I watched the game and was surprised he didn't swing.
   8. Xander Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:52 PM (#2863845)
People should go back and watch the AB again. Every single pitch was a pin-point control cutter thrown on the black of either side of the plate. It's completely understandable that he didn't swing.

This is just another hatchet job by an ex-media member looking for relevancy.
   9. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:54 PM (#2863848)
if there's one way to make me hate the red sox front office and consequently want to stop watching the team, it will be a lucchino-inspired hatchet job on manny. without manny, there are no two world series victories in 4 years. he is one of the greatest red sox players ever (maybe the best hitter). what, really, is lucchino's function anyway? he seems to play bad cop, but does this front office team really need him?
   10. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:55 PM (#2863849)
Has a star player ever left Boston on good terms, without retiring? I can't seem to remember one.
   11. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:57 PM (#2863850)
This is just another hatchet job by an ex-media member looking for relevancy.


i forgot that it was lobel.
   12. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2863851)
he is one of the greatest red sox players ever (maybe the best hitter)

I like Manny alot, but no way he's even close to the guy who is clearly their best hitter.
   13. JPWF13 Posted: July 18, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2863852)
Sounds like the usual redsox BS of spreading propaganda prior to them showing a player the door... Classic Larry Lucky.

Has a star player ever left Boston on good terms, without retiring? I can't seem to remember one.


There's a connection there.
   14. Mister High Standards Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2863853)
You did not just say Manny Ramirez was the maybe the best RedSox hitter ever did you? If you did then your crazier than ramirez.
   15. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:02 PM (#2863854)
There's a connection there.


How long has Lucchino been there? I ask, only because I remember Boggs and Clemens getting ripped on their way out, and I thought Lucchino was part of the new ownership group.
   16. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:04 PM (#2863856)
If you did then your crazier than ramirez.


If he did, he's crazier than Manson.
   17. Guapo Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:05 PM (#2863858)
Has a star player ever left Boston on good terms, without retiring?

Babe Ruth!

Oh, you mean good terms for BOSTON...
   18. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:06 PM (#2863860)
i said maybe. his career isn't over yet, you know. manny still has a fair chance to end up with more hits and homers than teddy ballgame, even if you give him credit for the war years. can you agree not to pass judgment until all is said and done?
   19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:07 PM (#2863862)
People should go back and watch the AB again. Every single pitch was a pin-point control cutter thrown on the black of either side of the plate. It's completely understandable that he didn't swing.
Yup.

I remember that at-bat, and the 0-1 and 0-2 were absolutely perfect pitches, 95 mph and darting over the corner. Manny's going to take those pitches 9 times out of 10.

It does appear Manny's a goner. I think that most of the fanbase has too many good feelings toward Manny to make this a really bad breakup, but I guess that's why Lucchino's starting now with the smears - need to get out ahead of the story and reframe it.
   20. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:09 PM (#2863864)
can you agree not to pass judgment until all is said and done?

Nope. I'm not trying to be a dick, but Manny has to do what Barry Bonds did at the end of his career to be close to Williams.
   21. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#2863865)
Has a star player ever left Boston on good terms, without retiring? I can't seem to remember one.

Pedro got a standing O when he came back to Fenway. So did Orlando Cabrera.
   22. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#2863867)
I have seen this movie before. The Red Sox brass is laying the groundwork for a popular player's exit out of town.

And if those comments are any indication, it is working....

As great as he has been, he's ready to be shipped to a National league team (hello Mets) for some prospects and at pitcher. Ba-bye Man-well

Manny being Manny... disgrace and time for him to move on

I have been a Manny apologist for years. No more.

I don't know about all of you but I would rather have the Sox spend Manny's money on a real money player, can you say Matt Holliday

"overmatched" by Rivera???? You idiot, the guy's a first ballot HOF (manny). He sat there with the bat firmly planted on his shoulder you boob. When you're "overmatched' you're swinging right through a pitch or buckling on a nasty offspeed pitch. You apologist weiny. Get a clue. Manny's gone, good riddence.
   23. Mister High Standards Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:12 PM (#2863870)

i said maybe. his career isn't over yet, you know. manny still has a fair chance to end up with more hits and homers than teddy ballgame, even if you give him credit for the war years. can you agree not to pass judgment until all is said and done?


There is no sequence of events that result in Manny Ramirez being a better hitter than Williams. I can agree, that if you conceive of any reasonable set of events that can lead to that you are indeed... The Batman.
   24. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:13 PM (#2863871)
Nope. I'm not trying to be a dick, but Manny has to do what Barry Bonds did at the end of his career to be close to Williams.


Dammit. I was just typing that exact phrase.

Manny has the chance to go down as one of the greatest hitter in history, but there's no way short of a miracle that he moves ahead of Ted Williams - especially based on performance in a Boston uniform.
   25. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#2863873)
So did Orlando Cabrera.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never considered Cabrera as a star.
   26. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:15 PM (#2863874)
Has a star player ever left Boston on good terms, without retiring? I can't seem to remember one.

Dave Winfield got a standing O when he came back to Yankee Stadium. That doesn't mean he left on good terms. (probably on the worst terms ever, actually).
   27. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:15 PM (#2863876)
i said maybe. his career isn't over yet, you know. manny still has a fair chance to end up with more hits and homers than teddy ballgame, even if you give him credit for the war years. can you agree not to pass judgment until all is said and done?
It's really, really, really not close. Best years by OPS+

235, 233, 217, 215, 205, 201, 192, 189, 179, 172 - Williams
186, 184, 165, 161, 160, 153, 152, 147, 146, 146 - Ramirez (includes CLE seasons)

Manny is an all-time great hitter, good enough that despite bringing nothing else to the table, he will be a deserving Hall of Famer. And he's not in any way comparable to Ted Williams. That's how great Williams was.
   28. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:17 PM (#2863880)
Dave Winfield got a standing O when he came back to Yankee Stadium. That doesn't mean he left on good terms. (probably on the worst terms ever, actually).


I thought Winfield left New York on good terms, at least among the fans. I thought it was only Steinbrenner who hated him.
   29. Srul Itza Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:19 PM (#2863883)
manny still has a fair chance to end up with more hits and homers than teddy ballgame, even if you give him credit for the war years. can you agree not to pass judgment until all is said and done?


No.

First of all, raw hits and home runs are hardly the best measure. For example:

Ted Williams: Career OPS+ 191
Manny: Career OPS+ 154

Second, no matter how many hits or home runs Manny ends up with, he is more than unlikely to have more in a Boston uniform than Williams, since over a 1,000 of the hits and 236 o the home runs came i Cleveland.
   30. Sexy Lizard Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:22 PM (#2863886)
Another way of putting it is that Williams' career OPS+ was 191, and Manny's best single-season OPS+ was 186.
   31. The Good Face Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:24 PM (#2863889)
People should go back and watch the AB again. Every single pitch was a pin-point control cutter thrown on the black of either side of the plate. It's completely understandable that he didn't swing.


Crazy talk! It's inconceivable that a hitter could be nailed on 3 called strikes from a scrub like Mariano Rivera!! In fact, I bet it's NEVER happened before in the entire history of baseball!!!
   32. winnipegwhip Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:25 PM (#2863892)
I would like to see Manny being Manny in wartime service. I am picturing Slim Pickens right now.
   33. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:25 PM (#2863893)
It's not an insult to say that Manny is not close to Ted Williams as a hitter. That's my uncontroversial statement of the day.

Hey, with defense factored in, you have to say Joe D deserved that MVP over Williams. No?
   34. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:26 PM (#2863897)
Also, the Lobel story seems to hinge on whether or not people in the front office believed Manny tanked an at bat. It's entirely possible that the FO is being a little irrational here.
   35. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2863898)
For a front office that is arguably the best in the game, Boston management seems to feel that they have to throw a player under the bus before they cut ties with him unless that player is obviously toasty. They probably don't want Manny back next year so rumors and stories like this one will continue to surface and will be used as justification. Why the Sox think they need to justify anything is beyond me.
   36. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2863899)
I thought Winfield left New York on good terms, at least among the fans.

Aren't we talking about management?

Anyway, in Boston Ray Borque left on good terms with both management and the fans. He was a star for sure. Reggie Lewis too. (too soon?)
   37. JC in DC Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2863900)
Yup.

I remember that at-bat, and the 0-1 and 0-2 were absolutely perfect pitches, 95 mph and darting over the corner. Manny's going to take those pitches 9 times out of 10.


Look, I don't know why Manny didn't swing, but I just re-watched the pitches and they were very fine indeed, but nothing out of the ordinary. He missed his spot on the 1st pitch (they clearly wanted it up) and it's waist-high, inside half. The second pitch is fine, too, but catches plate as well, and the third is more of the same. I'm with Mo in wondering why Manny never took the bat off his shoulder.
   38. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:28 PM (#2863901)
Another way of putting it is that Williams' career OPS+ was 191, and Manny's best single-season OPS+ was 186.

Crissakes man!

Oh yeah. I hope the Sawx pick up that $20 million option. Poor guy. Boo hoo, Manny, boo hoo! If it'll make you feel better, you can push Julio Franco around next time you see him.
   39. Kurt Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:30 PM (#2863904)
What the Yankees did to Winfield is truly bizarre, far worse than anything the Sox did to one of their players, which is basically declining to sign them and saying out loud they aren't that good anymore to the fans who were asking why.

I think their exact words were that they saw Winfield as a hitter in the twilight of his career.
   40. dlf Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:30 PM (#2863906)
I don't think it closes the gap completely, but Williams' best years were pre-integration and integration was progressing very slowly in the AL even past the Splinter's retirement. Williams superlative OPS+ was put up in a league with the United States' greatest white players; MbM has done his thing against the world's greatest players. Williams was -- by far -- a better player in his time than Ramirez is, or will be, in his. But that still needs contextualizing.
   41. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:32 PM (#2863908)
I think their exact words were that they saw Winfield as a hitter in the twilight of his career.

Zing!

Though I agree the Winfield business was absolutely horrid. Darkest days in Yankee history.
   42. Dizzypaco Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:32 PM (#2863909)
People are writing as if there have been several star players who have left under the current regime. There haven't been. There's Nomar and Pedro. I guess you could count Damon and/or Lowe (who they didn't say anything bad about). Pedro was just mad that they wouldn't offer him a four year deal.

So that leaves Nomar.

Boggs, Clemens, and Vaughn all left under a completely different ownership, which has nothing to do with the current one.
   43. Kurt Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:35 PM (#2863913)
No, I agree Winfield was far worse than Clemens or anyone else.
   44. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:35 PM (#2863914)
Aren't we talking about management?


I should have phrased it better. Basically, it seems that every star who leaves Boston gets ripped by both the team and the media, no matter what the fans think. In the comparison point, I thought Winfield was hated by the team management (Big S), but was still liked by the fans and media.

I just find it so interesting that the Boston sports media seems to be such an extension of the team, when it comes to players leaving.

Anyway, in Boston Ray Borque left on good terms with both management and the fans.


I always got the impression that Bruins fans and media felt sorry for Borque, since he'd tried for his entire career to win in Boston, while playing for the cheapest owner in the game.
   45. Halofan Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2863916)
You show them Manny, just keep your bat on your shoulder in Anaheim this weekend...
   46. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:37 PM (#2863918)
Pedro was just mad that they wouldn't offer him a four year deal.

Remember the Pedro freak out in Texas? Was it Texas? Whatever, it was after a game, and Pedro called the entire Front Office liars. It was a lot deeper than simply not offering a 4 year deal.
   47. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:38 PM (#2863922)
Didn't Mo Vaughn leave on very bad terms?
   48. My name is Votto, and I love to get Moppo Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2863923)
I am picturing Slim Pickens right now.


wire the governor, tell him I said, "ow"?
   49. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:39 PM (#2863924)
What happened with Winfield? I must have been too young to understand the media hubbub.
   50. Deacon Blues Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2863926)
Kevin,

SJ was pretty obviously joking with the twilight line...and I think it's a little odd you're accusing anyone else of lacking objectivity with regards to their home team.
   51. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:41 PM (#2863928)
What happened with Winfield? I must have been too young to understand the media hubbub.

His contract was coming up, so Big Stein hired a private investigator to look into DW's private life, to dig up dirt on him. This is the reason Stein was suspended for a year.

Like I said, the most embarrassing, classless moment in Yankee history.
   52. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:42 PM (#2863929)
The twilight line wasn't even me, it was Kurt. I found it amusing, so I quoted it.
   53. winnipegwhip Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:44 PM (#2863933)
The Winfield saga can be seen as the light at the end of the tunnel of those Bucky Dent - Dallas Green - Stump Merrill days. George got suspended and Stick Michael and others got to run the team. It lead to the rise of Williams, Jeter, Pettite, Rivera etc. plus shrewd acquisitions like Jimmy Key, Paul O'Neill (for Roberto Kelly) which were the beginning of the late 90's success.

Thank you... Howard Spira, Dave Winfield and Fay Vincent.
   54. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:45 PM (#2863938)
Didn't Mo Vaughn leave on very bad terms?



Sure. Because he wasn't getting what he wanted either.


Didn't Theo leave on very bad terms?
   55. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:45 PM (#2863939)
Then you disavowed your endorsement in the very next line.

I found that amusing.


It's always amusing when iterations get dissembled.
   56. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:46 PM (#2863940)
His contract was coming up, so Big Stein hired a private investigator to look into DW's private life, to dig up dirt on him. This is the reason Stein was suspended for a year.


This was also the culmination of a decade long feud between Winfield and Big Stein over the specific terms of Winfield's contract (which were greater than George realized when he agreed to it), so a lot of bad blood had already been built up.
   57. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:47 PM (#2863943)
I don't think it closes the gap completely, but Williams' best years were pre-integration and integration was progressing very slowly in the AL even past the Splinter's retirement. Williams superlative OPS+ was put up in a league with the United States' greatest white players; MbM has done his thing against the world's greatest players. Williams was -- by far -- a better player in his time than Ramirez is, or will be, in his. But that still needs contextualizing.

Fine, be that way. Teddy managed to put up shortened season OPS+ of 201, 209, 172, 233, and 179 from ages 35 to 39 in the years 1954 to 1958.
   58. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:49 PM (#2863949)
Then you disavowed your endorsement in the very next line.

I found that amusing.


I believe you are more intelligent than this post would imply.
   59. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:52 PM (#2863959)
RDF. You divert the hades out of me, shooty.

Awww. I'm just hyped up about the Greg Smith-Mike Mussina change of pace festival I'm about to go see.
   60. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:53 PM (#2863961)
I'm just hyped up about the Greg Smith-Mike Mussina change of pace festival I'm about to go see.

Aw, you're gonna be there too? Sonofabitch, I can't believe I can't make it.
   61. tfbg9 Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:55 PM (#2863963)
Isn't Manny something like 3-41 as a PH anyway, with no XBH's?
   62. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:56 PM (#2863965)
which is basically declining to sign them and saying out loud they aren't that good anymore to the fans who were asking why.

I disagree with this. If they want to do that, it is fine. But in a couple very prominent cases, they start campaigns through the media. Whether it be, Manny quit in an AB, or Pedro isn't team first because he wasn't in the Bronx in game 6. Or Nomar isn't a gamer because he wasn't on the top step.

It appears that they are just going to go with, "Schilling can't pitch anymore." But fans know that anyway.
   63. Famous Original Joe C Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:57 PM (#2863969)
Random question: Are Greg and Howard Spira related in any way?
   64. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:59 PM (#2863973)
I disagree with this. If they want to do that, it is fine. But in a couple very prominent cases, they start campaigns through the media. Whether it be, Manny quit in an AB, or Pedro isn't team first because he wasn't in the Bronx in game 6. Or Nomar isn't a gamer because he wasn't on the top step.


Don't forget the "Clemens is fat & lazy" campaign, intertwined with the "Clemens doesn't know how to win anymore" campaign, which turned into the "Clemens is a greedy bastard" campaign when he signed with Toronto.
   65. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 07:59 PM (#2863974)
Random question: Are Greg and Howard Spira related in any way?

I believe they are not.
   66. Paul M Hates Krispy Kreme Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:01 PM (#2863976)
According to baseball-reference and some digging, Mariano Rivera has had three Ks in his entire career that were three strikes looking:

4/25/99 v. Shawn Green
6/12/08 v. Carlos Gonzalez
and the Manny K.
   67. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:02 PM (#2863977)
Aw, you're gonna be there too? Sonofabitch, I can't believe I can't make it.

I was supposed to go to the game AND golf, but I drank myself right out of the trip.
   68. Mattbert Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:05 PM (#2863979)
It appears that they are just going to go with, "Schilling can't pitch anymore." But fans know that anyway.

Well, CHB did crap out that column dumping all over Schilling's HOF chances...

I think we may be overestimating how much influence over the Boston media should be attributed to the Red Sox FO. Yeah, the stuff with Schilling's shoulder got a little testy this spring, but I don't think that was a smear campaign. In this latest "scandal" with Manny, let's not forget that there are plenty of people who cover the Red Sox who don't particularly care for him and who didn't need Lucchino or anybody else yanking their puppet strings to arrive at that opinion.
   69. aleskel Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:05 PM (#2863981)
isn't Manny supposed to also be a big-time stoner? How are we so sure that he didn't see he was getting a game off, went back in the clubhouse, rolled a fatty ... what? I'm pinch-hitting against Rivera? Oh #### man, oh ####
   70. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:05 PM (#2863982)
I was supposed to go to the game AND golf, but I drank myself right out of the trip.

I am screwed for the same reason, now being obliged to do something because I was too drunk to do something else I had promised to do earlier.
   71. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:09 PM (#2863989)
I am screwed for the same reason, now being obliged to do something because I was too drunk to do something else I had promised to do earlier.
I just spoke on phone regarding giving a ticket to someone who I suspect was Dial, based on the accent, but might've been Jeff Foxworthy. So that should be exciting when I get up there.
   72. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#2863990)
I think we may be overestimating how much influence over the Boston media should be attributed to the Red Sox FO.

Basically, I agree with this sentiment, except there are the very over-the-top media battles that seem obviously conducted by Red Sox FO people. Lucchino versus Theo was basically the Globe versus the Herald for that week period when Theo walked away. It was so obvious that CHB and Masserotti were being used as mouthpieces, it was bizarre.
   73. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#2863991)
but he sure was after leaving for NY.


Us Toronto fans weren't polite enough to stop at greedy bastard.
   74. John DiFool2 Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:10 PM (#2863992)
How does Manny stack up against the best RH hitters of all time (post 1900)? A quick and dirty look over at BBRef shows me that the following guys are arguably better:

Foxx
Hornsby
McGwire
Greenberg
Frank Thomas
Dick Allen
Mays
Aaron
Dimaggio
Frank Robinson

Manny fits in pretty comfortably in the latter part of the list, perhaps a bit above such guys like Bagwell and Kiner.

Pujols of course has a peak argument, still a bit too early to put him on the list tho.
   75. Cowboy Popup Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:12 PM (#2863996)
So that should be exciting when I get up there.

Sure, rub it in.
   76. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:12 PM (#2863997)
Imagine an intelligent Cletus the slack jawed yokel.

thats what Dial sounds like.
   77. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#2864002)
Imagine an intelligent Cletus the slack jawed yokel.

thats what Dial sounds like.
Yeah, that was Dial then. Actually, I was trying to place who it sounded like and Cletus is shockingly dead on.

Sure, rub it in.
I'll take some photos. Whether that will constitute rubbing it in or convicing you that not coming is an open question.
   78. aleskel Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:20 PM (#2864011)
I'm sure the NY papers have a few guys pulling the same crap but I suppose you would know those guys better than I. I would think Lupica is one of them.

actually, I can't think of any NY reporter or collumnist who shows much sycophancy. Maybe the Yankees and Mets are more controlling of access than the Sox.
   79. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:24 PM (#2864018)
I'm not reading the whole thread, so I am sorry if I'm repeating the words of others. But when I was watching that game and Manny took three pitches in a row, my first thought was "spite" about the organization.

Also, I think the Boston media and not necessarily the team ownership at the time is primarily responsible for "the kiss" given to departing Sawx.

It's gonna be interesting; I think Ortiz (despite being a black guy with an accent - a negative in the Boston baseball universe) is as close to bulletproof and beloved by all as you're going to find. And he is arguably the most integral part of the two championships for them. At some point he'll decline badly and not be worth the investment; that time may even be now. It'll be interesting to read PR hacks like CHB as they try to minimize his past contributions and find personal dirt to write about.
   80. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:25 PM (#2864022)
I would think Lupica is one of them.

A) Lupica doesn't report anything anymore. and B) he can't even get into the lower section anymore.
   81. aleskel Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:27 PM (#2864025)
Well, they all dump on A-rod, so there's one example

well yeah, but that has more to do with appealing to the dumb-#### fans who dump on ARod. If you want sycophancy, tune in to YES.
   82. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2864027)
I don't know of any stories which were credited to "team sources" which were negative toward ARod. Maybe I am missing some. The Verducci column was pretty rough, but nothing was anonymous.

The media is going to dump on the ARod, there isn't much the FO can do to stop it.
   83. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:29 PM (#2864029)
Well, they all dump on A-rod, so there's one example.


That's because A-Rod is a highly talented player, who always manages to come off as a complete ######### - the slapping incident, the "mine" incident, the Toronto stripper incident, the Madonna incident, the "which team will I play for in the WBS" incident. I don't think there's anyone unwilling to admit that A-Rod is a great player, but he just seems to get himself in so many stupid situations, completely of his own making.
   84. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:30 PM (#2864032)
Yaz, Rice, and Evans left on good terms.
   85. The Original SJ Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:34 PM (#2864040)
You aren't getting it. We are saying the Front Office plants these stories in Boston, but that doesn't happen in NY.
   86. Mattbert Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:37 PM (#2864044)
Jeter chokes and does all the same babe doggin' A-Rod does but he gets a complete pass.

When it comes to that, Jeter has the advantage of not being married. Of course, that won't hamper A-Rod's game for much longer now.
   87. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:37 PM (#2864045)
Yaz, Rice, and Evans left on good terms.


Two of those were allowed to chose their retirements, so the team knew they weren't going anywhere else.

It's also not a good sign when you have to go back 20 years to find an example.
   88. RJ in TO Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:45 PM (#2864055)
The writers just know from talking to the FO guys which direction they're going and do the dirty work for them. Like McDonough nicknaming Clemens "The Texas con Man" or Vaughn "Mo Money".


I'm still disappointed that "Moo" Vaughn never caught on as a nickname.
   89. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 18, 2008 at 08:51 PM (#2864058)
There is absolutely nothing to see here.
   90. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:29 PM (#2864081)
Edes on the Globe blog says that the report of a "six-figure" fine is simply false, and that there has been nothing going on within the Sox org in response to Manny's strikeout.

The apparent fact that Lobel's supposed report contained false information (Edes makes clear he has multiple sources) certainly casts doubt on the other claims he made.
   91. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili (TeddyF.Ballgame) Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:47 PM (#2864084)
How does Manny stack up against the best RH hitters of all time (post 1900)? A quick and dirty look over at BBRef shows me that the following guys are arguably better:

Foxx
Hornsby
McGwire
Greenberg
Frank Thomas
Dick Allen
Mays
Aaron
Dimaggio
Frank Robinson

Manny fits in pretty comfortably in the latter part of the list, perhaps a bit above such guys like Bagwell and Kiner.

Pujols of course has a peak argument, still a bit too early to put him on the list tho.


I was going to add Edgar Martinez and A-Rod, but I guess they're both just off the list, right in Bagwell/Kiner territory. So instead I'll suggest Ed Delahanty.
   92. Porpoise Delectable Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:48 PM (#2864085)
aleskel wrote:

actually, I can't think of any NY reporter or collumnist who shows much sycophancy.


aleskel, meet Bill Madden. Bill Madden, meet aleskel.
   93. Phil Coorey. Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:49 PM (#2864086)
Thanks Mikeal for the link - this Lobel guy in Aussie terms is a ####.
   94. tfbg9 Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:52 PM (#2864089)
actually, I can't think of any NY reporter or collumnist who shows much sycophancy


Kernan, for Hank Steinbrenner, big-time.
   95. spanx for the memories Posted: July 18, 2008 at 09:55 PM (#2864094)
I'm just curious what is going to happen to Manny once he cannot play anymore and has to retire. Does he really think that his act is going to play with regular people once he doesnt have management playing babysitter for him anymore? I mean is he going to slap around his travel agent if he doesn't get the right plane tickets for a vacation and expect nothing to happen? I think the next reality show should be having someone follow him around 24/7 after he retires to see how he interacts with the rest of the world. I'm sure you'd find some cable channel that would want to air something like that.
   96. Kyle S at work Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:07 PM (#2864103)
As poorly as Winfield was treated by the Yanks, he certainly doesn't seem to hold a grudge - he brought a Yankees hat with him to the All Star Game and put it on in place of his other hat, to the delight of the crowd.
   97. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:17 PM (#2864115)
so has it been decided yet whether this Lobel thing is complete bogus? I need to move on, but no one has given me the go-ahead.
   98. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:24 PM (#2864127)
Does he really think that his act is going to play with regular people once he doesnt have management playing babysitter for him anymore?
He's massively, massively wealthy. Yes, it will.

Also, while that shove was obviously a really bad thing, it's also the only record I know of Manny being violent. He's always been a space cadet, but the shove was way out of character, and I don't think it should be seen as a typical Manny act.
   99. OCD SS Posted: July 18, 2008 at 10:48 PM (#2864149)
How do you characterize slapping Youks?
   100. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: July 18, 2008 at 11:05 PM (#2864159)
How do you characterize slapping Youks?

An expression of erotic desire caught on tape.
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