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Friday, August 05, 2022

Didi Gregorius cut after disastrous Phillies tenure

Didi Gregorius’ time in Philadelphia is over.

Thursday afternoon, the Phillies announced they released Gregorius, the veteran ex-Yankees shortstop. In a corresponding move, Philadelphia activated infielder Jean Segura from the 60-day IL.

Gregorius, 32, is hitting .210 with a .567 OPS in 63 games this season. He is due to be a free agent at season’s end, though the Phillies are still on the hook for the $5.5 million he is owed through the rest of the season. Should any team take a flier and sign Gregorius for the stretch run, they would only have to pay him the prorated league minimum.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 10:09 AM | 76 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: didi gregorius, phillies

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   1. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:29 AM (#6090125)
This was a really fun Didi thread, with people arguing that his hot April in 2018 signaled a real change in ability. I believe history has rendered its own opinion on that.
   2. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:49 AM (#6090128)
Didi finished the 2018 season with a 122 wRC+ so is that why you didn't return to that thread to berate snapper after June?
   3. Tom Nawrocki Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:56 AM (#6090129)
Didi Gregorious in April 2018: .327/.421/.735
Didi Gregorious in the rest of 2018: .254/.311/.436
Didi Gregorious from 2019-present: .232/.284/.401

If you want to argue that something fundamentally changed for Didi in April 2018, knock yourself out.
   4. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:59 AM (#6090130)
I believe history has rendered its own opinion on that.
Pretty sure history has rendered a fact rather than an opinion.
   5. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 12:07 PM (#6090133)
If you want to argue that something fundamentally changed for Didi in April 2018, knock yourself out.
No, the contention is you're inexplicably behaving like a narcissistic douche.
   6. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 12:09 PM (#6090134)
I will freely admit to being wrong, and cop to being the only person in history ever to make bad baseball predictions. That's why I'm history's 42nd worst monster.

But how little do you have going on in your life, Tom, that you decided to dig up a thread from four years ago to prove that I made a mistake? I can remember a single statement you, or anyone else made, about baseball more than about 30 minutes ago, right, wrong or indifferent.
   7. jmurph Posted: August 05, 2022 at 12:12 PM (#6090136)
But how little do you have going on in your life, Tom, that you decided to dig up a thread from four years ago to prove that I made a mistake? I can remember a single statement you, or anyone else mad about baseball more than about three days ago.

This is such a trash thing to post. You have more than 49,000 comments here snapper, this kind of #### is ridiculous to post here.
   8. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: August 05, 2022 at 12:59 PM (#6090142)
snapper's post was good at first, but then he went too far.
   9. McCoy Posted: August 05, 2022 at 01:11 PM (#6090144)
Reminds me of the Corey Patterson debates.
   10. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 05, 2022 at 01:17 PM (#6090146)
If you think April 18 was too high to count, then subtract the disastrous May as well, if we want to slice and dice a year. Leaves him a bit above .850 for the year, which still would be both his best and a good year.
   11. nick swisher hygiene Posted: August 05, 2022 at 01:17 PM (#6090147)
Without dipping into that thread, it looks like Didi was a valuable player between ages 25-30, averaging around 3 WAR/season, & not so much before or after.

My sense is that baseball historians and researchers can account for this phenomenon.
   12. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 01:23 PM (#6090148)
Did anyone who watched him thelast couple years feel he had trouble making double plays? His numbers looked off to me and I feel the def metrics we have may not have captured that
   13. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 05, 2022 at 01:23 PM (#6090149)
One thing you can say about Didi is that the Yankees got nearly all of his career value out of him. 15.1 WAR in his five seasons there, 2.7 WAR in his six seasons everywhere else.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: August 05, 2022 at 03:04 PM (#6090166)
Did anyone who watched him thelast couple years feel he had trouble making double plays? His numbers looked off to me and I feel the def metrics we have may not have captured that

No idea on Didi but I think it's correct that the defensive metrics don't really do anything with DPs (unless they result in an error). They cover range but all of that occurs before the first force out; they cover the accuracy of throws. I don't know that they incorporate any element of turning the DP. That would be difficult, maybe impossible, to capture. Too many elements unrelated to the fielder's skill -- whether it's a DP opportunity to begin with, the speed of both runners, whether it was a hit and run, whether the other IF gets to the bag in time. As far as I know, there's also no adjustment for the fielder having the choice to go for the easier out.

I'd start by looking at whether there's substantial variation in DPs turned per opportunity (conditional on a ground ball) and how many runs that translates to. If it's big enough to worry about then try to figure out a method for measuring it. If it's small-ish, stick it in some "team defensive adjustment" for accounting purposes.

Over the last few years the Phils defense has been pretty lousy so it wouldn't surprise me if they were even worse at things that require teamwork and coordination but it might be hard to separate each individual's role in that.
   15. Walt Davis Posted: August 05, 2022 at 03:25 PM (#6090172)
So what's happened to the emergence of historically great monsters that Snapper hasn't dropped from #42? Is Snapper having a strong decline phase, maintaining near-peak monstrosity? Alternatively we could be seeing a slump in the development of great monsters similar to 80s starters but that doesn't seem to be the case when you read the news. Or are we a society more obsessed with fictional monstrosity than actual monstrosity?

EDIT: d'uh, it's because monsters are only allowed to go 5 innings now then a parade of anonymous monsters come in to finish things. They'll never compile enough career stats to displace Snapper.
   16. John Reynard Posted: August 05, 2022 at 03:41 PM (#6090176)
Did anyone who watched him thelast couple years feel he had trouble making double plays? His numbers looked off to me and I feel the def metrics we have may not have captured that


As someone who lives in PA and watches a fair number of Phillies games, I was stunned when he was given a 2-year deal mostly on the basis of being "decent enough" in the shortened 2020.

Gregorius struck me as just barely hanging on in multiple aspects of his play with the Phillies, even in 2020. I'll agree with Walt in #14 that the Phillies defense as a whole has been bad so it hasn't stuck out perhaps as much as it would have otherwise and its hard to determine if DP awkwardness is on Didi, Segura, or Hoskins.

Regardless, I did tell my dad the day the Phillies signed him that he'd be released before the 2 years are up so I'm feeling good about being right about a trivial thing. Gregorius just always looked baked. I blame Girardi for the Phillies signing him like that (and then playing him which made it worse).
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 05:50 PM (#6090193)
This is such a trash thing to post. You have more than 49,000 comments here snapper, this kind of #### is ridiculous to post here.

You don't get my point at all. It has nothing to do with posting on BBTF. I like talking about baseball, we all like talking about baseball.

The point is that digging something out from four years ago to show that someone was wrong, about something people get wrong all the time, is very strange, and very petty.
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: August 05, 2022 at 05:55 PM (#6090194)
He actually didn't single you out on this thread. Jason's shitpost, on the other hand, did.

There were others that also posted on that thread that Didi had improved.

   19. Nasty Nate Posted: August 05, 2022 at 06:16 PM (#6090195)
Yeah, it's fair and often fun to link to old threads now that we know the "future"
   20. Nasty Nate Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:18 PM (#6090200)
But looking at that thread, how come no one ever wanted to talk about Jesus Aguilar?
   21. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:22 PM (#6090201)
So if he finished the year with WRC+ 122, and on 26 April 2018 Snapper wrote:

He's not going to post a .400 ISO and a 200 wRC+, but there's no reason to believe he'll regress to an average hitter. I'd project a full year 125 wRC+ at this point.


What the hell does he have to defend?
   22. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:23 PM (#6090202)
Jason's shitpost, on the other hand, did.
Tom initiates a thread with "Look at how right I was four years ago and how wrong you were (hint, hint: snapper)!" and *I'm* the "shitposter?"

Thanks for the insightful input. LOL.
   23. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:39 PM (#6090206)
Thanks for the insightful input. LOL.

First you wrote, "Screw you, pal." Then you wrote, "Thanks for your input, clown."

Is this your final answer?
   24. SoSH U at work Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:47 PM (#6090207)
Tom initiates a thread with "Look at how right I was four years ago and how wrong you were (hint, hint: snapper)!" and *I'm* the "shitposter?"


Since you were the guy who wrote, "No, the contention is you're inexplicably behaving like a narcissistic douche," then yes, you are the shitposter.

People recalling old threads is not uncommon on this site. People responding to a bump in the way you did most certainly is.

Glad I could clear that up.
   25. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:49 PM (#6090208)
First you wrote, "Screw you, pal." Then you wrote, "Thanks for your input, clown."
Oh joy, the stalky stalkster is back to stalk.
   26. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:52 PM (#6090209)
People recalling old threads is not uncommon on this site.
People recalling old baseball threads specifically to rag on one or more posters *is* not common. Seriously, who do you think you're fooling?
   27. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 07:58 PM (#6090210)
Moreover, Tom was wrong on the substance, which was most recently observed in #21.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: August 05, 2022 at 08:01 PM (#6090211)
People recalling old baseball threads specifically to rag on one or more posters *is* not common. Seriously, who do you think you're fooling?


People recalling old threads when they were right about something is really not uncommon (one of your fellow Mets fans does it somewhat frequently). And he didn't single out Snapper (that was you), who wasn't the only poster suggesting that Didi's start signaled a new change in ability.


You completely overreacted. But I guess embarrassing yourself on this site is kind of your new thing.
   29. Nasty Nate Posted: August 05, 2022 at 08:09 PM (#6090212)
It's not him, it's gotta be everyone he encounters, everywhere he goes, by magic coincidence.
   30. Lowry Seasoning Salt Posted: August 05, 2022 at 08:17 PM (#6090213)
It's not him, it's gotta be everyone he encounters, everywhere he goes, by magic coincidence.


What a perfect description of people who like to play the victim. I need to remember this.
   31. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 05, 2022 at 08:25 PM (#6090214)
(that was you),
And snapper.

But yeah, superior analysis.
   32. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 08:57 PM (#6090221)
you can get a nice accounting of DPs at various positions, here is one for SSs in 2018

https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/fielding/_/year/2018/position/ss/sort/defWARBR/count/81/qualified/false/order/true

if you sort them by def runs saved and look at the top players, they almost always have more DPs than 0.5 x Games played. And you look at the bottom feeders here, e.g. Mercer, Kingery, Escobar and Rosario they are a bit below half.

if you look at 2019, de Jong, Trevor Story and Baez are all like 20 DPs above 0.5 x Games played. That much seems consistent.

On the other hand, the entry on BaseballRef seems to say that they do factor in DPs made although its all a black box sort of thing.


Over the last few years the Phils defense has been pretty lousy so it wouldn't surprise me if they were even worse at things that require teamwork


well yes, but I was thinking more about when he was with the Yankees, Gregorious's defense seemed to collapse in 2019. And his def rating in the subsequent years in PHI seem to track closely with that, losing about 1 run/10 games. BUt his DP rate is actually not bad, so maybe I misremembered his deal in particular.

I'd start by looking at whether there's substantial variation in DPs turned per opportunity (conditional on a ground ball) and how many runs that translates to


I think we can assign about 0.55 runs/DP as there's an additional out and an additional baserunner (typically) on 1b when you dont make it. I also suspect they happen a bit more in higher leverage situations. perhaps .6 is closer to reality.

But the other things you mention make this a very difficult thing to factor, certainly. I do think there could likely be a spread of say 15 defensive runs from the best to worst middle infielders. I doubt if BIS/DRS is picking up all of that or much of that.
   33. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 09:38 PM (#6090225)
I'll agree with Walt in #14 that the Phillies defense as a whole has been bad so it hasn't stuck out perhaps as much as it would have otherwise and its hard to determine if DP awkwardness is on Didi, Segura, or Hoskins.


Looking at that issue, it would be hard to pin much of it on the 1b, since they really can't do much to affect the speed at which the parts are moving. Trying to weight 2b, SS and 3b say for example if you look at Mazeroski's numbers in the 60s that infield was definitely turning DPs at a very high rate consistently not just that year they set the record. If you start in 1958 Maz is about 30 DPs above 0.5 x GP, and then 40-50 every season, except '66 when they set the record at 162 he's about 80 more than 0.5 x GP.

But at SS he had Dick Grote initially who was almost certainly very good, Schofield who was maybe better than average and then peak Gene Alley who won two gold gloves in '66 and '67 before he messed up his arm, so I guess he was VG too. So even if you assign half to those guys there's still alot of DPs to assign Maz.

I dont think it makes Maz better than Joe Morgan or even Chase Utley for that matter. But there's probably a handful or runs they are undercounting him each year. But at least for elite defenders there is a certain consistency in turning DPs.
   34. Walt Davis Posted: August 05, 2022 at 10:29 PM (#6090238)
Let's be clear what our hypothesis is ... since I'm not sure I'm clear on it.

It makes perfect sense that SSs (defenders) who turn more GBs into outs (via range, arm, etc.) when there is no force or there are already two outs would also turn more DPs for the exact same reasons. But that's more an issue of: a DP play made is more valuable than a regular GB play made, let's make sure we count them right.

The question I thought we were asking is "do DPs require some skill not already captured by generic defensive measures?" If so then we might expect not just that Javy Baez (obviously the best at everything!) turns more DPs than Didi but that he would turn more DPs than otherwise excellent SSs who are lacking those DP skills for some reason. Or similarly maybe there are 2B who have limited range but are excellent at turning DPs (and not just because they have a strong arm) -- wasn't that supposedly a Jeff Kent thing? Or somebody else? This would be a repeatable skill.
   35. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:51 PM (#6090254)
well at the outset I was simply assuming that DP skill would track closely with general defensive goodness. I see what you are saying and hadnt really thought of that. I could see it being different for 2b because the general numbers should reflect range, but DP ability might have more to do with a quick release and a strong arm. I could see there being two separate skills there.

Likewise 3b since that is an entirely different throw. More about quickness then strength.

Gregorious too, at least in 2018 seems to be good at DPs despite his defense cratering per the link I posted. Which doesnt mention if its using DRS or what.
   36. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: August 05, 2022 at 11:57 PM (#6090257)
One thing you can say about Didi is that the Yankees got nearly all of his career value out of him. 15.1 WAR in his five seasons there, 2.7 WAR in his six seasons everywhere else.


This is fun. I'm trying - and failing - to come up with other players in the modern era who did not come up with an org but generated most of their career value there. Bonus if he's a Yankee.
   37. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 06, 2022 at 12:25 AM (#6090259)
Ryne Sandberg made his major league debut as a Phillie.

The Blue Jays got 38.3 bbref WAR from Jose Bautista. Everyone else on either side of his career combined for -1.6.
   38. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: August 06, 2022 at 12:48 AM (#6090261)
Before I look, I'm going to assume Jim Edmonds is a good candidate for this. He was a solid defender/mediocre bat with the Angels but became a HoVG player with the Cardinals. Then he played out the string with a couple teams before hanging it up. Now to check...

Eh, not quite. Edmonds had 20 WAR with the Angels (and 2 in the twilight of his career) but 38 with the Cards. That's too much to really qualify here. I didn't realize he'd been quite that good with the Angels.
   39. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: August 06, 2022 at 12:50 AM (#6090262)
David Ortiz does seem like a good candidate. 2.6 WAR with the Twins. 52 with the Red Sox.
   40. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 06, 2022 at 12:52 AM (#6090263)
This is fun. I'm trying - and failing - to come up with other players in the modern era who did not come up with an org but generated most of their career value there. Bonus if he's a Yankee.


Adam Jones came up with the Mariners - he had 32.5 WAR with the Orioles, and 0.1 with the M's and Diamondbacks.
   41. John Reynard Posted: August 06, 2022 at 01:40 AM (#6090265)
Looking at that issue, it would be hard to pin much of it on the 1b, since they really can't do much to affect the speed at which the parts are moving.


Most DP end at 1B. If the 1B is a subpar defender, either for getting to the bag to receive throws or simply dropping/not getting throws which could be DP, they can impact DP rate. Hoskins in 2019 was still brutal at getting to the bag in the correct spots (my dad semi-defeatistly joked "he plays LF like a 1B and 1B like a LF." I just said "he plays both like a DH."). He's seemingly gotten better at that since by the eye test. But, he's still pretty brutal on botching catches.....this is how you have a .990 fielding percentage at 1B (which is bottom quintile among full-time 1B).

I'd have to think Hoskins does negatively impact DP rate due to a combination of errors and "going off the bag" to get stuff other 1B wouldn't have to. I mean, he's better than Franchy Cordero at 1B, but that isn't high praise.
   42. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 06, 2022 at 05:50 AM (#6090269)
This is fun. I'm trying - and failing - to come up with other players in the modern era who did not come up with an org but generated most of their career value there. Bonus if he's a Yankee.

Miguel Cabrera probably isn't the type of player you're looking for, but he had 18.3 WAR with the Marlins and 50 so far with the Tigers. Barry Bonds had a similar ratio with his two teams, with more than 2x Cabrera's WAR.

Josh Hamilton's a special case, but he got almost all of his career WAR from his third organization, which he joined in his age-27 season. Cecil Fielder got 16.9 of his 17.2 career WAR with the Tigers, after four partial seasons in Toronto and a year in Japan.

Looking at a guy more comparable to Didi Gregorius, Hubie Brooks had 8.9 WAR in 5 years with Montreal (his second team), vs. 4.1 WAR in 10 years everywhere else.

Paul O'Neill had 12.3 WAR with the Reds, then 26.7 WAR with the Yankees (so he gets the bonus). Another Yankee, Scott Brosius, had 8.3 WAR and 3 World Series titles in 4 years with the Yankees after getting 7.4 WAR and no World Series titles in 7 years with the A's.

I imagine it happens more frequently with pitchers, as they're more likely to "figure things out" later in their careers and might also be more likely to be traded while still young. Just looking at the all-time greats, Randy Johnson got slightly more than 50% of his career WAR with the Diamondbacks (his fourth team), Greg Maddux got about 2/3 of his career WAR from his second team, and Pedro Martinez got about 60% of his career WAR from his third team. Max Scherzer has generated more than 50% of his current career WAR with Washington (his third team), but that could change by the time he retires. He has 38.9 pitching WAR with Washington vs. about 30 from his other teams combined.
   43. McCoy Posted: August 06, 2022 at 06:58 AM (#6090272)
Well, Didi did basically regress to average from them on out.
   44. McCoy Posted: August 06, 2022 at 07:13 AM (#6090273)
If Jason Heyward hadn't stopped in STL for a season he could work in terms of WAA. Negative.2 in 7 seasons in Chicago. Jayson Werth works. 9.4 WAA in 4 seasons in Philly (huh) and .3 WAA everywhere else.
   45. ReggieThomasLives Posted: August 06, 2022 at 10:21 AM (#6090279)
If we had the right qualitative measure we could come up with a maybe useful double play efficiency. Something like:

1) Time to ball: Average time to reach ball when it enters fielders zone. Trying to measure how quickly fielder gets to ball and who takes best angles.
2) Release time: Average time from fielding ball to throwing it.
3) Throw accuracy: Average distance from defenders glove that throw arrives at.

Many issues with those measures. #1 affected by batted ball , #3 is trying to measure how catchable they ball is but depends on receivers positioning and doesn’t measure how easy it makes their throw.

Or a more qualitative approach could be used to create one. Have some skilled observers watch thousands of shortstop initiations of double plays on video, ranking them on a 5 point scale, then run results through machine language algorithm to generate an automated measurement tool. To reduce bias the video could be reduced to rough gray scale (or even black/white templates of ball and player) so observers can’t know who the player is. And it should include timing measures (such as release time) to make scoring more consistent. Both might also make the machine learning algorithm more accurate.

I would expect both approaches to already exist except for the one major problem with DP efficiency. No one cares. I can’t see any team paying for all the work necessary to implement them just to get a somewhat better measure than scouting, for a skill that’s not a huge component of a shortstops value. Fielding range has to be much more important for example.
   46. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:00 AM (#6090281)
This is fun. I'm trying - and failing - to come up with other players in the modern era who did not come up with an org but generated most of their career value there. Bonus if he's a Yankee.


Justin Turner had less rWAR in his first five seasons in Baltimore (where I didn't even know he'd played) and Queens than in his first season in Los Angeles. He's had 30 total with the Dodgers, less than 1 elsewhere.

David Ortiz, obvs.

Brian Giles was good in Cleveland (7.6 WAR in part-time play over about three seasons), but couldn't find a permanent home in their crowded outfield back then. In five seasons in Pittsburgh, he put up 27.2. Then, to top it off, he put up another 21.6 in his first six seasons with the Padres. (His last year in SD, the last of his career, was a total disaster, well below replacement in just a third of a season.)
   47. SoSH U at work Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:17 AM (#6090282)
If you look at it as the type of guy Didi was (rather than a highly touted prospect or young star who moves early, Bautista is the prototype. Interestingly, one of the next best examples would be his teammate, Edwin Encarnacion.
   48. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 06, 2022 at 02:20 PM (#6090294)
If you want to go back a way, Jay Buhner had -0.1 WAR with the Yankees, and 23 WAR with Seattle. He hit 310 HR, 307 of them with the Mariners.
   49. McCoy Posted: August 06, 2022 at 02:25 PM (#6090295)
There's a lot of players that get a cup of coffee somewhere and then play a long time somewhere else. A more interesting and accurate challenge would be to find players that play a long and don't rack up a lot of WAR except for a stint with 1 team.
   50. Nasty Nate Posted: August 06, 2022 at 02:45 PM (#6090300)
Richie Sexson?
Carl Pavano?
   51. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: August 06, 2022 at 04:29 PM (#6090320)
Greg Maddux.
   52. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: August 06, 2022 at 04:35 PM (#6090321)
There's a lot of players that get a cup of coffee somewhere and then play a long time somewhere else. A more interesting and accurate challenge would be to find players that play a long and don't rack up a lot of WAR except for a stint with 1 team.


Roger Maris. 6 years with CLE, KCA, and STL, 9 WAR, 7 years with the Yankees, 25 WAR.
   53. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: August 06, 2022 at 04:38 PM (#6090322)
Herb Pennock. 12 seasons with PHA and BOS, 11 WAR. 11 with the Yankees, 34 WAR.
   54. jingoist Posted: August 06, 2022 at 04:41 PM (#6090323)
So....if I read the numbers correctly in bbref, the Yankees paid Didi about $28M for 15 WAR, and the Phillies paid him $42M for 0 WAR.
I’d say Jolly was right on about his value statement on Didi.
If Didi has been smart enough to keep 1/3 or 1/4 of the $71M he made in his career, the remaining 50 or so years of his life should be very comfortable.
   55. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 06, 2022 at 05:42 PM (#6090326)
Greg Maddux.


33.7 bWar in Chi (10 seasons); 66.2 in ATL.
   56. SoSH U at work Posted: August 06, 2022 at 06:01 PM (#6090327)
Vinny Castilla - nine seasons in Colorado - 17.5 WAR.

Nine seasons beginning in Atlanta and concluding with Tampa, Washington, Houston, San Diego - 1.6 WAR.

   57. 57i66135 is a hard word for me. Posted: August 06, 2022 at 09:00 PM (#6090344)
There's a lot of players that get a cup of coffee somewhere and then play a long time somewhere else. A more interesting and accurate challenge would be to find players that play a long and don't rack up a lot of WAR except for a stint with 1 team.

charlie mortin before he was a phillies:
875 IP
4.54 ERA
84 ERA+
-1 WAR

charlie mortin after he was a phillies:
850 IP
3.45 ERA
123 ERA+
16 WAR
   58. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 06, 2022 at 10:02 PM (#6090353)
Jake Arrieta, Orioles: 358 IP, 0.1 WAR
Jake Arrieta, Cubs: 889 IP, 17.9 WAR

and then 362 IP with the Padres and Phillies, 3.1 WAR
   59. cHiEf iMpaCt oFfiCEr JE Posted: August 06, 2022 at 10:52 PM (#6090360)
All true Mets fans, even the young'uns, know what happened to Amos Otis after he got dealt:

-1.1 WAR in Queens, 44.8 WAR in KC.
   60. Howie Menckel Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:34 PM (#6090361)
Red Ruffing, Red Sox, 7 yrs, 39-96, 9.8 WAR
and with Yankees, 15 yrs, 231-124, 46.5 WAR

in the 1930 trade, the Red Sox got the last 65 OPS+ of the OF's mediocre playing career - and 50 grand, which was a decent amount of money back then.

the Red Sox owner was nearly broke (another one!), and also got a 50 grand loan to stay solvent.
   61. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:46 PM (#6090363)
It's a much smaller scale, but Tony Womack had 3.3 WAR in his age-34 season in St. Louis (following Tommy John surgery no less) and -0.8 elsewhere. I will never stop laughing at that.
   62. NaOH Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:58 PM (#6090364)
Randolph: –0.4 rWAR in Pittsburg, 66.3 the rest of the way

Nettles: 1 rWAR in Minnesota, then 67 rWAR

Ryan: 3 rWAR for the Mets, 80.6 afterward
   63. SoSH U at work Posted: August 06, 2022 at 11:59 PM (#6090365)
It's a much smaller scale, but Tony Womack had 3.3 WAR in his age-34 season in St. Louis (following Tommy John surgery no less) and -0.8 elsewhere. I will never stop laughing at that.


A more extreme version of Tony Womack is Neifi Perez, who had 4.0 WAR in his fourth big league stop and -1.4 everywhere else. Just the way Cubs fans remember it.
   64. SoSH U at work Posted: August 07, 2022 at 12:11 AM (#6090367)
Randolph: –0.4 rWAR in Pittsburg, 66.3 the rest of the way


That trade doesn't get the credit it deserves for the disaster that it was (much like Willie's career doesn't get the credit it deserves). Willie, Ken Brett and Dock Ellis for a single season of Doc Medich.

The Pirates then turned around and peddled Medich with Tony Armas, Rick Lankford, Mitchell Page, Doug Bair and Dave Giusti for Phil Garner and a few other inconsequential pieces. Scrap Iron gave them some good MI production, but that's an awful lot of talent shipped away in two moves for a perennial contender.
   65. Banta Posted: August 07, 2022 at 12:25 AM (#6090368)
Juan Soto 21.5 with the Nationals, 0.2 with the Padres!

…I may be doing this incorrectly.
   66. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: August 07, 2022 at 01:25 AM (#6090372)
The big one - and he's nothing at all like Didi.

Babe Ruth, BOS 19.2 WAR
Babe Ruth, NYA 143.4 WAR
   67. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: August 07, 2022 at 01:33 AM (#6090373)
A more extreme version of Tony Womack is Neifi Perez


Tony Womack + Doritos + Mountain Dew = Neifi Perez

EDIT:

Are Slim Jims more extreme than Doritos? Then swap them in.
   68. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: August 07, 2022 at 01:47 AM (#6090376)
Finally, though every post on this is interesting, I find the Joey Bats comparison absolutely pitch-perfect.

Looks like he's gonna become an itinerant veteran of not much note, but unexpectedly explodes. And the recipient team cuts him loose at exactly the right time.
   69. Misirlou cut his hair and moved to Rome Posted: August 07, 2022 at 09:02 AM (#6090381)
Finally, though every post on this is interesting, I find the Joey Bats comparison absolutely pitch-perfect.


Agree. Has anyone had a more wild 8 months than him? Between Dec 15, 2003 and July 30, 2004:

December 15, 2003: Drafted by the Baltimore Orioles from the Pittsburgh Pirates in the 2003 rule 5 draft.

June 3, 2004: Selected off waivers by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays from the Baltimore Orioles.

June 28, 2004: Purchased by the Kansas City Royals from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

July 30, 2004: Traded by the Kansas City Royals to the New York Mets for Justin Huber.

July 30, 2004: Traded by the New York Mets with Matt Peterson (minors) and Ty Wigginton to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Kris Benson and Jeff Keppinger.


He played for 4 different teams, and was very briefly a Met.
   70. cardsfanboy Posted: August 07, 2022 at 09:26 AM (#6090382)
Ozzie Smith 11 War in San Diego, 66 war in St Louis. Lou Brock 3.6 War in Chicago 45.3 in St Louis. (I'm trying to think of 'more than a cup of coffee guys, Lou had 2.5 seasons as a regular in Chicago, Ozzie 4 full seasons in San Diego) Andy Van Slyke (not as extreme as Ozzie) 10.3 everywhere else (10.2 of that was in St Louis) 31 in Pittsburgh. I think it would be easier to find guys prior to the wild free agency period (1980s to now) like this than after.
   71. sunday silence (again) Posted: August 07, 2022 at 09:47 AM (#6090384)
I think it would be easier to find guys prior to the wild free agency period (1980s to now) like this than after.


well I guess so because "after now" is nothing.
   72. greenback needs a ride, not ammo Posted: August 07, 2022 at 09:53 AM (#6090385)
Don't tempt the people who like to comment on their Baseball Mogul "future histories."
   73. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: August 07, 2022 at 11:15 AM (#6090394)
All true Mets fans, even the young'uns, know what happened to Amos Otis after he got dealt:


One of my favorite players ever, which I guess makes him my favorite former (for however brief a span) Met. Though Kevin McReynolds' Little Rock origins put him on the short list as well.

Also R.A. Dickey, given my love of knuckleballers. The Cy Young year while on my fantasy team didn't hurt, either.
   74. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: August 07, 2022 at 11:16 AM (#6090395)
Vinny Castilla - nine seasons in Colorado - 17.5 WAR.

Nine seasons beginning in Atlanta and concluding with Tampa, Washington, Houston, San Diego - 1.6 WAR.


One of the all-time great BBTF (& probably elsewhere) nicknames -- Vinny Cash-Stealer.
   75. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: August 07, 2022 at 12:11 PM (#6090396)
Oh, yeah. Forgot Rusty Staub!
   76. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 08, 2022 at 07:09 AM (#6090585)
A weird inside-out one is Raul Ibanez.

He got 14.8 of his 20.9 career WAR in Seattle. Now, it's true that he was drafted by and came up with Seattle, so he doesn't really qualify. However, he had -0.8 WAR in his first stint with Seattle (5 years), before going to Kansas City as a free agent. He then returned to Seattle after three years.

In his second stint with the Mariners (i.e., after changing organizations twice) he had 14.8 WAR. He had another 0.7 WAR in his third stint with the Mariners.

So he had all of his career WAR in those five middle seasons. The rest of his career -- 14 years, some of it also with the Mariners -- totaled up to 0 WAR.

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