Isn't Hamilton self reporting his relapse and wanting to get treatment him showing some level of accountability? Obviously it's not a good as not relapsing, but he certainly could have handled it in worse ways.

Yeah, baby, I cheated on you again, but can't you see I'm sorry. I was sorry before, but this time I'm really sorry. Why don't you believe me?

Yeah, baby, I cheated on you again, but can't you see I'm sorry. I was sorry before, but this time I'm really sorry. Why don't you believe me?

So better to just lie about it and act like it never happened, and not get treatment, is what you're saying?

So better to just lie about it and act like it never happened, and not get treatment, is what you're saying?

I think it was definitely a sign of him taking some responsibility. My guess as to what happened is that he self reported, and figured that while the Angels wouldn't be happy, they wouldn't be as pissed off as they were. I think that's a pretty reasonable expectation, since I think their anger shocked most people. Furthermore, that antagonism made Hamilton defensive about the situation, and probably led to the "they knew what they were getting" comments

I don't think this is "hey, I cheated on you, but I'm sorry" kind of thing. I think it's a "Hey, I accidentally wrecked the car last night", which your spouse reacts to with divorce papers. The reaction was not commensurate with the infraction by any means.

#63 I don't think it's as simple as that. I mean addicts are obviously a risk but to take just one example I don't think the Mets had any cause to regret picking up Keith Hernandez (and yes, they probably didn't know when they picked him up. Doesn't change the facts at hand. He had drug problems at the time they picked him up and it could hardly have worked out better for the Mets)

A certain percentage of addicts straighten their lives out and I think one reason for Moreno's reaction is that he thought Hamilton was one. And was wrong.

Now if your point is that Moreno made the call, was wrong and has to take accountability for that call, no disagreement.

Ron, the thing is the Angels have had no reason to regret Hamilton's relapse other than a bit of embarrassment for that happening to a big free agent signing. He never even made it onto the field for them to show whether or not the relapse had any negative repercussions for his baseball playing ability. Hamilton's real failing in the eyes of Moreno and people like Halofan is that he was a bad signing and didn't have the decency to screw up in a way that let them save money via suspension or contract nullification. I'm generally not that sympathetic to Hamilton but the drug relapse was never the real issue here, just a convenient thing to bring up as a cover for the real anger towards him.

Well put, Jim W.

shredder

i am not here to pick at wounds

i will end my side of the discussion

Take off your Haloized blinders.

They could have shut their mouths, played Josh as soon as he came back, and if he hit at all, likely shipped him out while finding someone to pickup a lot more than $6M of his contract. They publicly beat his value into the ground before trading him, is that smart, is that intelligent, is that canny?

Or much better, they could have kept him so they had, you know, a DH who could actually hit RHP. I've heard that's worth more than $4M a year.

That's an intemperate way to have a conversation with someone who has been posting at BTF for a long time, and who has never in any forum indicated disagreement with paragraphs 2 and 3.

Jay Buhner had negative defensive WAR? Hmmmm. OK, then.

Gee, maybe you shouldn't trust a serially relapsing addict on what the best way to stay sober is.

Nothing I said either disagrees with that statement, or warrants the sarcasm.

So better to just lie about it and act like it never happened, and not get treatment, is what you're saying?

Whatever. He has the problem. He is the one that has to solve it. He's not going to do that making excuses and relying on people making excuses for him.

#104 Sure I'll buy that. If he made it on to the field as scheduled and played as well as they hoped I think there would have been little animosity.

Jay Buhner had negative defensive WAR? Hmmmm. OK, then.

The grand tradition of believing a strong arm makes for good outfield defense lives on!

given that members of your fan base continue to demonize the players versus management i have trouble reconciling your feedback with the facts

Conversely, it's possible that the Angels fans on this thread (basically none of whom are supporting Moreno's behavior here), might have a better handle on the median Angel-fan reaction in this case.

The list of villains in Angel-fan lore is small: Mo Vaughn & Scott Schoeneweis is about it in the 21st century; arguably Teixeira. You generally have to go above and beyond to arouse hatred in Anaheim. It remains to be seen how Hamilton will be treated, but well before the relapse business, chances were decent that he'd be greeted with boos for his performance during and comments after the playoff appearance last year.

matt

so basically everyone on bbtf sholud just hush and let angel fans only be the final word on all things la angels?

that is how your post reads as does shredder's intended or no

look, it's clear that instead of reaching understanding folks are just getting more aggravated

so again, i will set aside the discussion. if folks want to believe now that i hate the angels or some such nonsense so be it

Hamilton's real failing in the eyes of Moreno and people like Halofan is that he was a bad signing and didn't have the decency to screw up in a way that let them save money via suspension or contract nullification.

Just as a matter of curiosity, how often has that happened--the player screwing up in a way that allow the contract to be abrogated?

The grand tradition of believing a strong arm makes for good outfield defense lives on!

Actually it's the grand tradition of thinking a good defensive outfielder is a good defensive outfielder. Which is why he had that reputation and won a Gold Glove one year. Whatever goes into the numbers likely isn't adequately accounting for the bandbox and Ken Griffey, Jr. When a guy leads the league in defensive runs as a virtual rookie, then an elite CF takes over and gobbles up a bunch of flyballs ... well, let's just say it's ummmm ... unlikely ... that Jay Buhner all of a sudden lost a step at 24.

Return to sender.

Conversely, it's possible that the Angels fans on this thread (basically none of whom are supporting Moreno's behavior here), might have a better handle on the median Angel-fan reaction in this case.

Everyone seems to be basing their opinion on the fans on your #57, Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim's #42, etc. description of them. What else do you want?

#115 Roughly never. The Padres fought a bunch of battles on this score, lost one (LaMarr Hoyt) and were encouraged by the league to drop another high profile fight (Alan Wiggins) and that pretty much was the last for quite some time.

You'd hear teams talking about the possibility of voiding the contract from time to time but it rarely went beyond talk. IIRC Denny Neagle settled for 90% of the contract rather than go to arbitration and that's the only case I can think of.

Pretty sure you're a lawyer so I'm sure you'd understand what one arbitrator (who among others made the Hoyt ruling) wrote:

"Normally, off-duty conduct is the business of the employer only under certain limited circumstances - when it can be shown by credible evidence that the conduct directly injures the product or reputation of the business, where fellow workers reasonably refuse to work with the alleged miscreant, where the behavior renders the employee unable to perform his duties or appear at work, like being in jail, or where the conduct clearly breaches an employee's duty of loyalty to the employer.

All of this, sometimes referred to as the "vital nexus" requirement, recognizes that employers are not the guardians of the public weal or the ultimate censor of their employees' off-premises behavior, nor are they society's chosen enforcers."

so basically everyone on bbtf sholud just hush and let angel fans only be the final word on all things la angels?

Jesus Christ, no! But realize that you are arguing with Angel fans about what Angel fans *believe*. I would never in a million years return the favor about what Brewer fans think about Ryan Braun or whatever's controversial there at a given moment.

Just as a matter of curiosity, how often has that happened--the player screwing up in a way that allow the contract to be abrogated?

I don't know of any off the top of my head (not a baseball history guy at all) but I'm sure it has happened before. I assume most potential situations end up more like Denny Neagle though, where the Rockies "settled" with him for something like $16 of the $18 million they owed because their case was weak as hell. "Save us a little bit of money and we won't drag this through arbitration".

Edit: Just remembered one. I believe the Yankees did successfully avoid paying Aaron Boone's remaining year on his contract after he tore his ACL playing basketball. There was contract language prohibiting that so they actually had a good case for it.

Any fan group contains multitudes. I won't speak for my fellow Angel fans, but I can speak to what I observe.

116-

His defense may be better than the advanced metrics let on. But his offensive WAR of 30.5 is also unremarkable (479th all time), and behind those of Vernon Wells and Reggie Sanders. Buhner was a good outfielder who played seven full seasons and varying parts of eight others. It was a bad trade, but it's been turned into a legendarily bad one

Actually it's the grand tradition of thinking a good defensive outfielder is a good defensive outfielder. Which is why he had that reputation and won a Gold Glove one year.

Yes, he had that reputation based on having a good arm. You're making my point for me, fucknuts.

so basically everyone on bbtf sholud just hush and let angel fans only be the final word on all things la angels?

that is how your post reads as does shredder's intended or no

Well, that certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense than your position that, because we're Angels fans, we can't really opine on what Angels fans believe, and basing that on a fiction that we're all taking management's side in this, when in fact, none of us have really done that.

He has the problem. He is the one that has to solve it. He's not going to do that making excuses and relying on people making excuses for him

And him admitting his relapse and seeking treatment is part of that. Anyone expecting an addict to never relapse is setting themselves up for dissapointment.

I think the Buhner trade legacy is helped by the Seinfeld bits. Also probably didn't hurt that Buhner hit .458/.500/.625 against the Yanks in the 1995 ALDS.

And him admitting his relapse and seeking treatment is part of that. Anyone expecting an addict to never relapse is setting themselves up for dissapointment.

Yes, it is part of that, an important part. But it's only the beginning. You can't live your life in a treatment center. One should expect the addict not to relapse. That doesn't mean your forgiveness and understanding should be unlimited. One shouldn't make light of relapse either, and when you seek to mitigate your responsibility for the relapse or blame it on others, including the breakdown of a support group, that's what you're doing. And you should let him know that.

Actually it's the grand tradition of thinking a good defensive outfielder is a good defensive outfielder. Which is why he had that reputation and won a Gold Glove one year.

Derek Jeter agrees. Count the Gold Glovezzzzz.

I think the Buhner trade legacy is helped by the Seinfeld bits. Also probably didn't hurt that Buhner hit .458/.500/.625 against the Yanks in the 1995 ALDS.

Does anyone remember why the real George Steinbrenner's appearance on Seinfeld never got aired?

So then Buhner lost a step or two at 24. Good to know.

Carry on.

Hamilton's real failing in the eyes of Moreno and people like Halofan is that he was a bad signing and didn't have the decency to screw up in a way that let them save money via suspension or contract nullification.

Based on what's been posted in the various Angel forums and on the call-in shows, there's a pretty significant portion of the fan that believes Hamilton was a bad signing not just because he didn't play well and relapse but that his relapse, his great flaw, was the reason he didn't play well. Over and over again, I've heard people either imply or state outright that the reason he sucked was because he's a druggie. The implication is pretty clear: Hamilton didn't just play poorly, he sabotaged himself and the Angels because he's a druggie.

The cruel irony for the Angels is that they could desperately use someone who played as poorly has Hamilton did. Thus far, the Angels at 1B/DH/LF are a combined .191/.236/.267 so far, and Albert Pujols is going to be out at least a few games. The Angels have nobody left on the bench or in the minors who are remotely as talented as Hamilton is, something they wouldn't have had to worry about IF THEY'D JUST KEPT THEIR ####### MOUTHS SHUT.

I believe the Yankees did successfully avoid paying Aaron Boone's remaining year on his contract after he tore his ACL playing basketball. There was contract language prohibiting that so they actually had a good case for it.

Their case was so good that they didn't even have to litigate it. The contract said that the team could convert the contract to non-guaranteed if the player was injured while playing basketball. Apparently, the Yankees write this into all of their player contracts. I'm sure basketball isn't the only prohibited activity and other teams do similar things Mike Mussina famously got the Yankees to make an exception and allow him to play, but only for three weeks in December and only on the indoor court at his home. He's the HS basketball coach at his alma mater now.

So then Buhner lost a step or two at 24. Good to know.

My understanding is that it's unusual to not lose your speed as you age.

What speed? 6 SB and 24 CS for his career. 19 3B in 5000 AB.

I don't recall Buhner having a particularly good defensive rep aside from the arm. His GG came at age 31, and only because Devon White switched leagues that year.

"Does anyone remember why the real George Steinbrenner's appearance on Seinfeld never got aired?"

Yes, Larry David has said he was unbelievably bad. Larry realized George is an amateur actor, but he was so bad it was just unusable. That show set a high bar, and while I'm not as huge a fan of David as some, I completely respect his bigtime comic chops. If he said it wasn't usable, I believe him.

Reminds me of a "Taxi" scene where the gang is at DMV, and I guess it was "Jim" aka Christopher Lloyd taking a test. He's asking what the answer is, and is told "Slow down!"

He then starts speaking more slowly in response - and, well, yeah. Lloyd was asked how he knew how many times he could continue the loop. "Until it isn't funny anymore," he replied. The good ones know.

Apparently, the Yankees write this into all of their player contracts.

Boone was acquired mid-season from Cincinnati.

Now back to the matter at hand - Jay Buhner's fielding prowess.

Just remembered one. I believe the Yankees did successfully avoid paying Aaron Boone's remaining year on his contract after he tore his ACL playing basketball. There was contract language prohibiting that so they actually had a good case for it.

Similarly the Cardinals got Carlos Hernandez's 2001 salary cut in half when he had career-ending back surgery during the 2000-2001 off-season.

ETA: Cardinals fans didn't really care.

Boone was acquired mid-season from Cincinnati.

In the last year of his contract. The Yankees re-signed him for one year at $5.75M. That's the contract that got converted to non-guaranteed status, and under which he received a little over $900k termination pay when they released him.

Thanks, Howie. Hey, be sure to RSVP re: the softball game.

The kind of speed (or whatever) that let him lead the league in defensive runs as a virtual rookie ... before Ken Griffey, Jr. took over CF and started catching a bunch of balls. He didn't lead the league in d-runs at 23 and then become a sub-replacement RF overnight.(*) That makes no sense, and is kind of the fundamental problem with defensive WAR.

(*) Particularly when he typically had few errors and had a great arm.

The kind of speed (or whatever) that let him lead the league in defensive runs as a virtual rookie ... before Ken Griffey, Jr. took over CF and started catching a bunch of balls. He didn't lead the league in d-runs at 23 and then become a sub-replacement RF overnight.(*) That makes no sense, and is kind of the fundamental problem with defensive WAR.

Hey, I don't trust dWAR either, but if he had one good (half) year and then was negative in every other single year of his career, isn't it very possible that dWAR simply overrated him that one (half) year? (And I'm not sure why you're calling him a "virtual" rookie instead of an actual rookie. He played 7 games the previous year.)

I only saw Buhner play 5-10 games a year in the '90s, but I remember always thinking his defense was overrated. He could throw, but he didn't have much range.