"He was a homophobe, and I'm glad he's dead." -- Half of Twitter right now.

ya, he's a product of his time, and was on the record saying a lot of lunk-headed things. but i believe it was reported that although his son turned out to be gay, which he no doubt disapproved of, they still had a good relationship.

Never saw him lose Quiz Bowl to ten dogs.

1) The Dodgers had two managers between 1954 and 1996. Their combined record was 3639-3054, a .543 winning percentage. But combined, that is still fewer wins than the #1 guy on the list, Connie Mack, who won 3,731 wins. That is crazy.

2) Lasorda is currently #22 in the all-time win list for managers. The top 10 on the list are all in the HOF, and most of #21-#37 are in the HOF, too. But almost all of #11-#20 are *not* in the HOF, which seems odd:

11. Bochy, 3 World Series, under .500 career record
13. Mauch famously no WS, under .500 career record
15. Baker 0 WS
16. Pinella 1 WS
17. Leyland 1 WS
18. Francona 2 WS
19. Scioscia 1 WS
20. Houk 2 WS

Francona and Baker are the two on the list that are active entering 2021.

Every manager with three or more WS titles is in the HOF, so does that mean Bochy eventually gets in?

I was surprised that Francona is so high on the list - with his two titles, including the famous 2004 comeback, he seems like a lock eventually.

Early in 2021, Baker will pass Mauch for the most wins for any manager without a WS title. Nobody without at least one WS title has been inducted to the HOF as a manager (some ex-players are in for their on-field accomplishments, like Walter Johnson and Frank Robinson). But not only will Baker retire with in the top 10 in career wins, but his W/L percentage compares favorably with most of those already in the HOF.

I assume Bochy gets in just as soon as the next committee that will consider him meets.

Francona is going in when he retires. Leyland and Piniella might get in. Baker has a chance, but he probably needs to at least win one title before he's done.

Mauch and Houk are not getting in, if they were they'd already be in. I don't think Scioscia makes it.

It felt like Lasorda managed forever and won a lot, so I was a bit surprised to see Mike Scioscia, Dusty Baker and Terry Francona passed him in wins.

God when will 2020 end???

Sad to hear. I know there are things about Tommy to criticize but he was always a favorite of mine when I was a kid. I remember when the Dodgers beat the Astros in 1980 to clinch the division (looks it up, nope, 1981 NLDS), LaSorda running out of the dugout jumping up and down and waving his arms. He was so happy, waving his arms. What a cute old man. He was three years older than I am now.

And of course he was the Dugout Wizard.

#2, Lasorda and his son had a complicated relationship but it seems like he was a good father while his son was alive.

"They always allowed me to do exactly what I pleased. I don't know how they had the sense to be that way. As parents they're both so...well, very straitlaced and conservative. I don't know how I was allowed to just be ME, but I think it was because I was so strongly ME that I don't think they thought they could ever STOP IT..."

but after his son passed away:

Back in his suite, in the residence area of Dodgertown, I ask him if it was difficult having a gay son.

"My son wasn't gay," he says evenly, no anger. "No way. No way. I read that in a paper. I also read in that paper that a lady gave birth to a ######' monkey, too. That's not the ######' truth. That's not the truth."

I ask him if he read in the same paper that his son had died of AIDS.

"That's not true," he says.

I say that I thought a step forward had been taken by Magic Johnson's disclosure of his own HIV infection, that that's why some people in Los Angeles expected him to...

"Hey," he says. "I don't care what people...I know what my son died of. I know what he died of. The doctor put out a report of how he died. He died of pneumonia."

That being said, that quote shouldn't be the sum total of Lasorda Sr.'s legacy. RIP.

What's his opinion of sudden cardiopulmonary arrest, I wonder?

Nice PeteF3.

RIP Tommy. I was more Fletch than the Chief when it came to Tommy, but he was a helluva baseball guy.

I'm not sure Bochy is done with his career, he's only 65.

So sad that everyone gets judged now by stuff off the field. It’s the way of the world now.

As a kid I hated him because we all hated the dodgers and Yankees but I enjoyed watching him and his antics with the umps. The NL earl weaver. Good for him surviving the 2020 crush at the Pearly Gates.

Like #13, sneered at Fat Tommy Lasagna of the Dogturds as a kid but appreciate his being an ambassador for the game in other countries.

bochy is still actively managing! ... the french national team. (also an advisor to zaidi in sf. iirc, he stopped managing because of his health but wouldn't rule out a return in the future.)

So sad that everyone gets judged now by stuff off the field. It’s the way of the world now.

I understand how you feel (I think) and I tend to agree that the alleged "crimes" of Lasorda (bad dad) and Schilling (alt-right troll) and most in the baseball world are usually far from that.

That said, the piece about "it's the way of the world now" reads like satire. Bill Cosby was a stellar entertainer, for example. Should we leave it at that?

I always felt he was too stubborn to die.

I never cared for him as a man but loved his clear passion for the game and the game is poorer for his passing. RIP.

#2, Lasorda and his son had a complicated relationship but it seems like he was a good father while his son was alive.

Thanks for that link. I had always heard the quote about him denying his son was gay but ever heard the rest of the story.

That was quite an era from the Dodgers.

"the 2020 crush at the Pearly Gates."

Tony Fernandez was the first really good player to pass last year, on February 16. Kaline the first Hall of Famer on April 6.

Tommy was larger than life in sense of the phrase. He was often full of sh!t, but mostly had his heart in the right place. Tommy made baseball better in a way that lunkheads like Schilling do not, but I can see how others might come to a different conclusion.

That said, the piece about "it's the way of the world now" reads like satire. Bill Cosby was a stellar entertainer, for example. Should we leave it at that?

I think there should be big distinction between actual felony crimes, and opinions we don't like.

I think there should be big distinction between actual felony crimes, and opinions we don't like.

There is. For felony crimes you go to prison. For opinions we don't like people aren't nice to you. If you don't like being called homophobic, don't be homophobic. If you want to be homophobic, don't ##### when you get called on it.

There is. For felony crimes you go to prison. For opinions we don't like people aren't nice to you. If you don't like being called homophobic, don't be homophobic. If you want to be homophobic, don't ##### when you get called on it.

It sounds like he was nice to his son. Isn't that what actually matters? We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?

It sounds like he was nice to his son. Isn't that what actually matters? We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?

Some people will, some people won't. It happens. Not everyone agrees on stuff.

We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?

Lasorda was 65 when he made those comments, FWIW.

Is everybody assuming Francona's health issues will prevent him coming back next year?

I think there should be big distinction between actual felony crimes, and opinions we don't like.

I agree, and that was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I read too much into the words in 13, but it just had echoes of other arguments that have allowed for famous people to get away with actual bad things for too long.

Not everyone agrees on stuff.

Finally something we can all agree on!


But also, RIP Lasorda. Which is a better way to use a funeral thread.

Tommy was a major figure of my baseball youth, sad to see him go.

Dugout Wizard video

From wikipedia:

While the Tucson location was selected specifically to accommodate the Major League players just prior to spring training, segments featuring Lasorda ("The Dugout Wizard") were filmed without him. Linda Coslett ("Kate", season 1) recalled, "We would pretend. We would look at this chalk-board that was blank, and then they would go back to Los Angeles and film it separately with Tommy and then plug him into the show. So Tommy Lasorda was never on the set.", with Erik Lee adding, "We never met (Lasorda), unfortunately."[2]

It's a mistake to give entertainers, including sports figures, any attention for anything they have to say. Their job is to please.

I wonder if Tommy's tapes -- they'd be CDs now -- are still available at the Crystal Cathedral.

Lasorda was 65 when he made those comments, FWIW.

So ... barely out of adolescence.

-- gef, talking mongoose, 61.

I think there should be big distinction between actual felony crimes, and opinions we don't like.

There is a distinction. One goes to the jail and the other gets shunned by those who disagree. What constitutes a crime changes over time. Many things that would now land a person in jail for decades, if not the remainder of their natural life, were either perfectly legal a hundred years ago, or at least customarily unenforced. Social punishment is a perfectly acceptable for technically legal but shameful behavior. The laws don't represent a roadmap to being a good and virtuous person. They're just a list of things the government is willing to spend money to stop. The only thing that's changed between now and way back when is that you can no longer escape your reputation by waiting for people to forget or moving to the next town over; 19th century folks were perfectly happy to shun and mock and isolate and drive out and even lynch people who didn't fit their view of morality.

That being said, yes people should be judged in all their complexity and the context of their time. Everyone does or believes dumb, bad, shameful things. Precious few are utterly reprehensible, except current and former Dodgers.

Precious few are utterly reprehensible, except current and former Dodgers.

What an interesting misspelling of "Yankees."

The Yankees, like all American League "teams", don't actually play baseball and therefore don't merit consideration.

Just for fun, LaSorda as manager was ejected 48 times, by 33 different umpires by my count.

The one who ran him most often was Eric Gregg, with four of them. Dave Pallone, Harry Wendelstedt, Bob Davidson and Charlie Williams all ran him thrice.

Everyone does or believes dumb, bad, shameful things. Precious few are utterly reprehensible, except current and former Dodgers.

Exactly.

Lasorda could have done some good for the cause of awareness and acceptance if he had acknowledged his son's sexuality and cause of death at the time. That was the hope of the author when he originally interviewed Lasorda for that article back in 1992, according to the afterword he wrote at the link I posted. It's unfortunate that he didn't, but none of us is perfect, and it's a bit more complicated given that his son wasn't open about his illness, according to the article. Lasorda may have felt like he was respecting his son's wishes.

The one who ran him most often was Eric Gregg

Only room for one fat guy on Gregg's diamond.

Lasorda losing his #### in the World Series against the Yankees (thanks to Reggie's hip) was one of the greatest things I ever saw when I was a young 'un.

I do not think it is fitting to comment on the private relationship of a father and his son.

puck:

Thanks for that link. I had always heard the quote about him denying his son was gay but ever heard the rest of the story.

snapper:

It sounds like he was nice to his son. Isn't that what actually matters? We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's take—not even trying to call out puck or snapper, just after their comments I dug this up—but here's more of the story on Tommy and Tommy, Jr., from Pete Richmond writing in 1992 for GQ.

Tangled Up in Blue

Edit: Apologies to Inge up thread. I missed his earlier link to the same piece.

.

The hip incident with Jackson is an all timer. So glad
It was captured so well for posterity.

We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?

Well, that depends. What were his views on abortion? Did he ever tell a racist joke, or even laugh at one? Did he ever give money to a suspect politician or the wrong political party? It's like a sliding scale, and the rules change every so often.

But if you're OK with the cool kids in class, we'll let (some) bad stuff slide. (This time.)

I met Lasorda at baseball game circa 1995. I have a framed and signed picture of us together somewhere. I remember him seeming happier to be there than any of the active players who ever showed up.

He looked ancient at the time. Not a bad run.

39. That was funny.

Of course in 5-7 years you’ll be banned for ever having said such a terrible thing and whatever chance you had to make the HOF is now gone.

But that was funny.

He is one of only four managers in big league history to manage the same team for 20 years or more—the others being Connie Mack, John McGraw and Lasorda’s predecessor, Walter Alston.

This is wrong. Bobby Cox managed the Braves for a four year stint, then came back for another twenty-and-a-half year stint.

Perhaps the greatest quote of all time, from Lasorda's New York Times obituary:

When he left [Slim-Fast] in early 1995 after his contract expired, he did not reveal his weight, but told The Los Angeles Daily News that he needed to lose about 10 pounds. “I’ve lost probably 2,000 pounds over the years and gained 2,030,” he said.

I'm guessing Lasorda was one of the last living people who played pro ball during World War II.

Solid, longtime MLB 1B Eddie Robinson reached the MAJORS in 1942 and now he has a regular podcast to talk about his career

4-time All-Star, and got MVP votes in 3 of those seasons

and 100 years young, indeed

Howie, I found Eddie's podcast too! When I first saw it, I was so excited that I put the link on my Facebook feed at once.

Back to the main event, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).

Edit: Apologies to Inge up thread. I missed his earlier link to the same piece.

I have no idea what you were trying to do there. You quoted me thanking Inge for linking the same story you tried to link.

The hip incident with Jackson is an all timer.

It's great, as it captures memorable moments from two of the bigger names in baseball of the time.

As noted, LaSorda was only 65 when he said the stuff about his son's death. That's not addled old age. He was still managing the Dodgers and would for another 4 seasons. If your 85-year-old grandpa pulls some racist #### out of nowhere, that's old age; if your 85-year-old grandpa told racist jokes when he was 20, maybe that was "context"; if your 85-year-old grandpa has been telling racist jokes for the last 70 years ...

(A loved one's death is never easy and surely even harder when it's your child. People react in so many different ways and I've personally been through this a lot over the last several years so I won't judge how LaSorda "should" have reacted publicly to his son's death. I hope that privately, later if not immediately, he accepted his son's reality.)

As to "changing standards" ... Al Campanis' infamous racist comments were in 1987, aged 70, and he was fired 2 days later. Per Wiki, in the interview itself, Koppel noted he "sounds a lot like the garbage we heard 40 years ago (i.e. the 40s/50s)" Far too many people act like recognition of racism (and homophobia and ...) is some new phenomenon. There was no debate over firing Campanis 34 years ago; Koppel had no problem noting that #### had been socially unacceptable for a long time (and of course wrong for eternity).

One implication of that is that just as LaSorda doesn't have the excuse of old age, neither does anybody under the age of 80 have the excuse of "I didn't know better when I was young." A facebook "friend" posted a racist joke last year -- a joke that was recognized as racist for at least my entire life, a joke my mother would have punished me for if I'd told it at 10 (which is probably about how old I was the first time I heard a variation of it).

Sure, there are many norms, mores, etc. that have changed in the time I've been alive and it is reasonable to try to judge behavior by the context of its occurrence. But social norms (and some laws) against racism have been around for several decades, social norms (and some laws) against blatant sexism for several decades, social norms against blatant homophobia since at least the 80s.

And in case it's not clear, "socially acceptable" is still not a good excuse. Society has recognized that all humans are human for a very long while now. We have recognized that deriding another group of people for your own pleasure is wrong. Sure, trans and other more recently recognized notions of gender and sexuality are "weird" to most people my age -- no excuse to make fun of such people much less to invent reasons why they are less human or to foment fear or to discriminate or to physically attack. Even in the world of "it's just a joke", I recommend George Carlin's advice that it's never cool to punch down.

Everyone does or believes dumb, bad, shameful things. Precious few are utterly reprehensible

Very true. But only a precious few of us get featured obituaries in major national/international news outlets. Unless one is a fan of hagiographies, such obituaries should cover the public successes and blemishes.

That said, I'd have no problem whatsoever if reporters stopped asking questions like this unless the subject of the interview has brought it up or made previous controversial statements. (Not sure if that was the case here.) LaSorda had no responsibility to tell the world what he felt about his son's life and the media had no responsibility to reveal the circumstances of his son's death.

As to "changing standards" ... Al Campanis' infamous racist comments were in 1987, aged 70, and he was fired 2 days later. Per Wiki, in the interview itself, Koppel noted he "sounds a lot like the garbage we heard 40 years ago (i.e. the 40s/50s)" Far too many people act like recognition of racism (and homophobia and ...) is some new phenomenon. There was no debate over firing Campanis 34 years ago; Koppel had no problem noting that #### had been socially unacceptable for a long time (and of course wrong for eternity).

please review the actual baseball life of Al Campanis and his experience with civil rights issues, and then provide some badly-needed context here [spoiler alert: Jackie Robinson will be a significant part of your answer]. I'm talking about real-life decisions made in seriously controversial times, vs. tossing popcorn down from the peanut gallery.

holy hell, we are so far down the damn rabbit hole, aren't we? nobody can hit a home run anymore - all that is measured now is flailing strikeouts.

nm

The thing about Baker is that he really needs consideration as a two way person, his playing career was solid (37 bwar, 19 seasons) add in his managerial/coaching career, and it's really hard to argue against him to be honest. I mean we are literally talking about a 42+ year career in which he, by almost any metric has to have been called above average for most of it. I would put him in the hof in a heartbeat, even without a ws title.

As far as Lasorda, growing up, he was the "big name manager"... bigger than Billy Martin or Earl Weaver, since he was around much longer for his teams and a bit more successful. I might have eventually grown up to not like him as much as I did, but as a kid, he was the hated manager (and yes that is a compliment) this was the guy who kept winning, who fielded a great team, that my beloved team just couldn't beat. It was also the face of the National League, so I rooted for his team in the post season because the NL was so much better than the AL and those scums like the Orioles and Yankees, (and maybe the A's and Tigers in some years)

And he was an ambassador, the guy loved baseball, I don't care what you think of him, just watch him talk baseball, and know that it was something he loved. This was obvious to everyone that watched any interview with him when he managed.

RIP. Tommy Lasorda.

Well said Cardsfanboy

From Bill Plaschke

“Pasta gave him his size, restaurants gave him his influence, dieting made him a national star, and regaining the lost weight made him a lovable human being,” Plaschke wrote. “Each of his 1,599 victories was accompanied by food. Each of his two world championships ended in a celebration of food, which is not only his currency, it’s his oxygen.”

Perhaps the greatest quote of all time, from Lasorda's New York Times obituary:

One of my favorite sports quotes was delivered by LaSorda, supposedly uttered by Pedro Guerrero, but probably just made up by LaSorda and wisely attributed to Pedro.

From the LA Times...

The manager also tells a story of querying Pedro Guerrero, his transformed third baseman, as to what Pedro would be thinking in the ninth inning of a World Series game with an enemy batter up and the bases loaded and two out.

“I’d be thinking, ‘Don’t let him hit it to me,’ ” admitted Guerrero.

“Anything else?” persisted Lasorda.

“Yeah,” said Guerrero, “I’d be thinking, ‘Don’t let him hit it to Saxie, neither.’ ”

In the minors, a 21-year-old Lasorda beaned ex-major leaguer Buster Maynard, causing a bench-clearing brawl. Afterwards, Maynard asked him why. "You didn't give me your autograph at Shibe Park when I was in junior high," Lasorda petulantly replied.

RIP.

Re 50: Eddie could very well be the only living person who played pro ball in the 1930s! (His manager/teammate with the 1939 Valdosta Trojans was Bill Morrell, who was born in 1893...the same year Abner Doubleday died.)

10. The CDCs opinion is “died of covid”

Seriously, can't this board ever discuss anything without politics or social pontificating derailing the narrative?

#62 New to the intertubes?

Nobody without at least one WS title has been inducted to the HOF as a manager (some ex-players are in for their on-field accomplishments, like Walter Johnson and Frank Robinson)

Walter Robinson and al Lopez disagree. Unless you think it was their great catching skills, in which case rick Ferrell is not the worst catcher in the hall of fame.

Ps: Tommy lasordas views And relationship with his son is not a topic for the peanut gallery.

Tommy lasordas views And relationship with his son is not a topic for the peanut gallery.

Kow and where do we drat that line? Chapman's or German's relations with their wives? That something off limits?

I will just say, #2 commented on Lasorda’s relationship with his son. I had heard that Lasorda refused to acknowledge how his son died, but never knew the details, so I looked it up. I posted a link to the article because I thought it portrayed a much more complex relationship than what I had assumed to be the case. And it was one that painted Lasorda Sr. in a better light than the short version of the story, despite his imperfections. It was also the first time I had seen Tommy Lasorda, Jr. portrayed as an actual human being, rather than simply a one-line obituary used to criticize his father.

I don’t think it’s inappropriate to remember people as the complex beings they are after they’re gone.

The one who ran him most often was Eric Gregg

Tommy apparently had some notion of what the strike zone was supposed to be.

Tommy apparently had some notion of what the strike zone was supposed to be.

Indeed, three of Gregg's four ejections of Tommy were over balls and strikes. The other was a disputed trap/catch. LaSorda thought Yeager caught a ball; Gregg ruled it was trapped, and when Cesar Cedeno doubled afterward, LaSorda bumped Gregg while arguing.

Gregg ruled it was trapped, and when Cesar Cedeno doubled afterward, LaSorda bumped Gregg while arguing.

That was kind of unavoidable in an argument between those two.

i only mentioned lasorda's son because it has long been a topic that was bound to be discussed, and it is freighted with much more nuance than people realized. lasorda sr. was not a raging homophobe, he simply had issues with homosexuality that reflected his upbringing. but he also obviously loved his son, and never disowned him.

there's a very good article about it in today's nytimes

Only room for one fat guy on Gregg's diamond.

Now we know why Tommy went all-in on Ultra Slim Fast.