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Friday, January 08, 2021
Tommy Lasorda, the son of Italian immigrants and a professional pitcher who became a legendary Dodgers manager, global baseball ambassador and national treasure, has died. He was 93….
Lasorda was inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1997 on the strength of 20-plus seasons managing the Dodgers (1976-96). He is one of only four managers in big league history to manage the same team for 20 years or more—the others being Connie Mack, John McGraw and Lasorda’s predecessor, Walter Alston.
Lasorda retired as manager after suffering a heart attack in 1996, having won the World Series in 1981 and ‘88, plus four National League pennants and eight division titles. He was 3-1 as an All-Star manager. His 1,599 wins rank 22nd all time.
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1. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: January 08, 2021 at 12:02 PM (#5998290)2) Lasorda is currently #22 in the all-time win list for managers. The top 10 on the list are all in the HOF, and most of #21-#37 are in the HOF, too. But almost all of #11-#20 are *not* in the HOF, which seems odd:
11. Bochy, 3 World Series, under .500 career record
13. Mauch famously no WS, under .500 career record
15. Baker 0 WS
16. Pinella 1 WS
17. Leyland 1 WS
18. Francona 2 WS
19. Scioscia 1 WS
20. Houk 2 WS
Francona and Baker are the two on the list that are active entering 2021.
Every manager with three or more WS titles is in the HOF, so does that mean Bochy eventually gets in?
I was surprised that Francona is so high on the list - with his two titles, including the famous 2004 comeback, he seems like a lock eventually.
Early in 2021, Baker will pass Mauch for the most wins for any manager without a WS title. Nobody without at least one WS title has been inducted to the HOF as a manager (some ex-players are in for their on-field accomplishments, like Walter Johnson and Frank Robinson). But not only will Baker retire with in the top 10 in career wins, but his W/L percentage compares favorably with most of those already in the HOF.
Francona is going in when he retires. Leyland and Piniella might get in. Baker has a chance, but he probably needs to at least win one title before he's done.
Mauch and Houk are not getting in, if they were they'd already be in. I don't think Scioscia makes it.
And of course he was the Dugout Wizard.
#2, Lasorda and his son had a complicated relationship but it seems like he was a good father while his son was alive.
but after his son passed away:
That being said, that quote shouldn't be the sum total of Lasorda Sr.'s legacy. RIP.
RIP Tommy. I was more Fletch than the Chief when it came to Tommy, but he was a helluva baseball guy.
As a kid I hated him because we all hated the dodgers and Yankees but I enjoyed watching him and his antics with the umps. The NL earl weaver. Good for him surviving the 2020 crush at the Pearly Gates.
I understand how you feel (I think) and I tend to agree that the alleged "crimes" of Lasorda (bad dad) and Schilling (alt-right troll) and most in the baseball world are usually far from that.
That said, the piece about "it's the way of the world now" reads like satire. Bill Cosby was a stellar entertainer, for example. Should we leave it at that?
I never cared for him as a man but loved his clear passion for the game and the game is poorer for his passing. RIP.
Thanks for that link. I had always heard the quote about him denying his son was gay but ever heard the rest of the story.
That was quite an era from the Dodgers.
Tony Fernandez was the first really good player to pass last year, on February 16. Kaline the first Hall of Famer on April 6.
I think there should be big distinction between actual felony crimes, and opinions we don't like.
There is. For felony crimes you go to prison. For opinions we don't like people aren't nice to you. If you don't like being called homophobic, don't be homophobic. If you want to be homophobic, don't ##### when you get called on it.
It sounds like he was nice to his son. Isn't that what actually matters? We're going to pan a guy cause of a few statements he made in old age?
Some people will, some people won't. It happens. Not everyone agrees on stuff.
Lasorda was 65 when he made those comments, FWIW.
I agree, and that was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I read too much into the words in 13, but it just had echoes of other arguments that have allowed for famous people to get away with actual bad things for too long.
Finally something we can all agree on!
But also, RIP Lasorda. Which is a better way to use a funeral thread.
Dugout Wizard video
From wikipedia:
So ... barely out of adolescence.
-- gef, talking mongoose, 61.
There is a distinction. One goes to the jail and the other gets shunned by those who disagree. What constitutes a crime changes over time. Many things that would now land a person in jail for decades, if not the remainder of their natural life, were either perfectly legal a hundred years ago, or at least customarily unenforced. Social punishment is a perfectly acceptable for technically legal but shameful behavior. The laws don't represent a roadmap to being a good and virtuous person. They're just a list of things the government is willing to spend money to stop. The only thing that's changed between now and way back when is that you can no longer escape your reputation by waiting for people to forget or moving to the next town over; 19th century folks were perfectly happy to shun and mock and isolate and drive out and even lynch people who didn't fit their view of morality.
That being said, yes people should be judged in all their complexity and the context of their time. Everyone does or believes dumb, bad, shameful things. Precious few are utterly reprehensible, except current and former Dodgers.
What an interesting misspelling of "Yankees."
The one who ran him most often was Eric Gregg, with four of them. Dave Pallone, Harry Wendelstedt, Bob Davidson and Charlie Williams all ran him thrice.
Exactly.
Only room for one fat guy on Gregg's diamond.
Lasorda losing his #### in the World Series against the Yankees (thanks to Reggie's hip) was one of the greatest things I ever saw when I was a young 'un.
I do not think it is fitting to comment on the private relationship of a father and his son.
snapper:
Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's take—not even trying to call out puck or snapper, just after their comments I dug this up—but here's more of the story on Tommy and Tommy, Jr., from Pete Richmond writing in 1992 for GQ.
Tangled Up in Blue
Edit: Apologies to Inge up thread. I missed his earlier link to the same piece.
It was captured so well for posterity.
Well, that depends. What were his views on abortion? Did he ever tell a racist joke, or even laugh at one? Did he ever give money to a suspect politician or the wrong political party? It's like a sliding scale, and the rules change every so often.
But if you're OK with the cool kids in class, we'll let (some) bad stuff slide. (This time.)
He looked ancient at the time. Not a bad run.
Of course in 5-7 years you’ll be banned for ever having said such a terrible thing and whatever chance you had to make the HOF is now gone.
But that was funny.
This is wrong. Bobby Cox managed the Braves for a four year stint, then came back for another twenty-and-a-half year stint.
4-time All-Star, and got MVP votes in 3 of those seasons
and 100 years young, indeed
I have no idea what you were trying to do there. You quoted me thanking Inge for linking the same story you tried to link.
It's great, as it captures memorable moments from two of the bigger names in baseball of the time.
(A loved one's death is never easy and surely even harder when it's your child. People react in so many different ways and I've personally been through this a lot over the last several years so I won't judge how LaSorda "should" have reacted publicly to his son's death. I hope that privately, later if not immediately, he accepted his son's reality.)
As to "changing standards" ... Al Campanis' infamous racist comments were in 1987, aged 70, and he was fired 2 days later. Per Wiki, in the interview itself, Koppel noted he "sounds a lot like the garbage we heard 40 years ago (i.e. the 40s/50s)" Far too many people act like recognition of racism (and homophobia and ...) is some new phenomenon. There was no debate over firing Campanis 34 years ago; Koppel had no problem noting that #### had been socially unacceptable for a long time (and of course wrong for eternity).
One implication of that is that just as LaSorda doesn't have the excuse of old age, neither does anybody under the age of 80 have the excuse of "I didn't know better when I was young." A facebook "friend" posted a racist joke last year -- a joke that was recognized as racist for at least my entire life, a joke my mother would have punished me for if I'd told it at 10 (which is probably about how old I was the first time I heard a variation of it).
Sure, there are many norms, mores, etc. that have changed in the time I've been alive and it is reasonable to try to judge behavior by the context of its occurrence. But social norms (and some laws) against racism have been around for several decades, social norms (and some laws) against blatant sexism for several decades, social norms against blatant homophobia since at least the 80s.
And in case it's not clear, "socially acceptable" is still not a good excuse. Society has recognized that all humans are human for a very long while now. We have recognized that deriding another group of people for your own pleasure is wrong. Sure, trans and other more recently recognized notions of gender and sexuality are "weird" to most people my age -- no excuse to make fun of such people much less to invent reasons why they are less human or to foment fear or to discriminate or to physically attack. Even in the world of "it's just a joke", I recommend George Carlin's advice that it's never cool to punch down.
Everyone does or believes dumb, bad, shameful things. Precious few are utterly reprehensible
Very true. But only a precious few of us get featured obituaries in major national/international news outlets. Unless one is a fan of hagiographies, such obituaries should cover the public successes and blemishes.
That said, I'd have no problem whatsoever if reporters stopped asking questions like this unless the subject of the interview has brought it up or made previous controversial statements. (Not sure if that was the case here.) LaSorda had no responsibility to tell the world what he felt about his son's life and the media had no responsibility to reveal the circumstances of his son's death.
please review the actual baseball life of Al Campanis and his experience with civil rights issues, and then provide some badly-needed context here [spoiler alert: Jackie Robinson will be a significant part of your answer]. I'm talking about real-life decisions made in seriously controversial times, vs. tossing popcorn down from the peanut gallery.
holy hell, we are so far down the damn rabbit hole, aren't we? nobody can hit a home run anymore - all that is measured now is flailing strikeouts.
And he was an ambassador, the guy loved baseball, I don't care what you think of him, just watch him talk baseball, and know that it was something he loved. This was obvious to everyone that watched any interview with him when he managed.
RIP. Tommy Lasorda.
“Pasta gave him his size, restaurants gave him his influence, dieting made him a national star, and regaining the lost weight made him a lovable human being,” Plaschke wrote. “Each of his 1,599 victories was accompanied by food. Each of his two world championships ended in a celebration of food, which is not only his currency, it’s his oxygen.”
One of my favorite sports quotes was delivered by LaSorda, supposedly uttered by Pedro Guerrero, but probably just made up by LaSorda and wisely attributed to Pedro.
From the LA Times...
The manager also tells a story of querying Pedro Guerrero, his transformed third baseman, as to what Pedro would be thinking in the ninth inning of a World Series game with an enemy batter up and the bases loaded and two out.
“I’d be thinking, ‘Don’t let him hit it to me,’ ” admitted Guerrero.
“Anything else?” persisted Lasorda.
“Yeah,” said Guerrero, “I’d be thinking, ‘Don’t let him hit it to Saxie, neither.’ ”
RIP.
Walter Robinson and al Lopez disagree. Unless you think it was their great catching skills, in which case rick Ferrell is not the worst catcher in the hall of fame.
Ps: Tommy lasordas views And relationship with his son is not a topic for the peanut gallery.
Kow and where do we drat that line? Chapman's or German's relations with their wives? That something off limits?
I don’t think it’s inappropriate to remember people as the complex beings they are after they’re gone.
Indeed, three of Gregg's four ejections of Tommy were over balls and strikes. The other was a disputed trap/catch. LaSorda thought Yeager caught a ball; Gregg ruled it was trapped, and when Cesar Cedeno doubled afterward, LaSorda bumped Gregg while arguing.
That was kind of unavoidable in an argument between those two.
i only mentioned lasorda's son because it has long been a topic that was bound to be discussed, and it is freighted with much more nuance than people realized. lasorda sr. was not a raging homophobe, he simply had issues with homosexuality that reflected his upbringing. but he also obviously loved his son, and never disowned him.
there's a very good article about it in today's nytimes
Now we know why Tommy went all-in on Ultra Slim Fast.
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