No, far fewer.

One of those reasons is that most relievers are failed starters. Hoffman was. Hell, Rivera was a failed starter.

that's not really making the intended point.

No.

Easiest question I've answered in a long time.

Hoffman was a failed shortstop IIRC. Kenley Jansen was a failed catcher.

This basically begs for a Grandpa Simpson/Murray Chass mashup (which, frankly, is pretty much just Murray Chass).

Dear Mr. Hall President, There are too many closers in the Hall. Please eliminate three.
P.S. I am not a crackpot.

The relief pitcher is a relatively modern innovation. Wilhelm debuted in 1952 and he was an outlier for years

That is, needless to say on this forum, not very accurate. Wilhelm pitched a huge number of relief innings, but among his contemporaries, Roy Face, Stu Miller, Lindy McDaniel, and quite a few others also did. Wilhelm still holds the record for career relief IP (1872), but McDaniel is second (1695), so that's not outlying by very much.

And of course there was an earlier generation of guys in the 1920s and '30s who specialized or at least made their biggest impression as relievers: Firpo Marberry, Jack Russell, and others who were better known as starters but also relieved as a major role during their careers (Eddie Rommel, Waite Hoyt, Bill Sherdel). Later on, Johnny Murphy; and Joe Page was a big star for a while, and Jim Konstanty had been an MVP two years before Wilhelm was in the majors.

The writer knows this, I'm sure, and has probably condensed the presentation mightily to get it into a very brief article. But anyway, it wasn't like Hoyt Wilhelm appeared and everybody said "OMG a relief pitcher."

Right now there are too many closers in the HOF imo - Sutter really was a very poor choice, 5 times led in saves in his very brief 12 year career. Won a Cy when closers were still viewed as mysteries (37 saves, 10 blown in 101 IP in '79 with a 2.22 ERA - today that wouldn't get him a single Cy vote I suspect). Closers aren't valued anywhere near as much as starters or hitters - just look at their salaries. Only Edwin Diaz gets $20+ mil a year (barely). But just 3 are making over $15 a year - Raisel Iglesias & Kenley Jansen the others. Meanwhile $15 mil only gets you an injured starting pitcher it seems nowadays. Just 10 have $10+ mil a year in salary (via https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/salary/relief-pitcher/). That same site has 19 starters at $20+ mil a year, 58 at $10+ mil a year (almost 2 per team).

So no, closers aren't as valuable as starters or even close. The best closers are like a #2 or #3 starter and I don't rank those as HOF worthy. For every exception (Rivera) there are hundreds of guys who aren't remotely close. No more than 1 or 2 per 10 year period should get in for closers. Wilhelm pre 70's, Fingers & Gossage for the 70's, Eckersley for the 90's, Rivera for the 00's to now. Hoffman, Sutter, and Smith are all very weak HOF'ers imo. Smith had the save record for a long time so I can see a case, Hoffman cracked 500 & 600 saves just before Rivera did so he also has that weak case. Craig Kimbrel is the current leader with 394 but I don't see him as a HOF'er. I think the jumping around of teams that most closers do is a sign of how little value they have to most clubs - you don't lock a closer up for life unless he is Rivera.

Certainly the closer and arguably the "fireman" or "finisher" is a modern innovation but, correct, relief specialist really isn't. (And is 1972 still "modern"?) Fewer than half the starts in 1932 was a complete game, surely nobody thinks it didn't occur to teams maybe they'd want 1 or 2 good pitchers available for some of those. (True enough, 425 of 612 wins were CGs so relievers were mostly for mop-up duty.

OK, this may be a step too far. Used to be you could pop open, say, a year's AL summary, click on MLB and get a full MLB summary. Then if you wanted to look at, say, 1932, you just replaced 2022 with 1932 in the web address. Now the 1932 ML summary page also includes the NeL and there's now no easy way to get combined NL/AL stats for those years. Oh well.

Of course the HoF needs more relievers.

Not because relievers are particularly valuable (we all know they are not, as compared to starters), but because the HoF (and by that I mean the actual institution in Cooperstown, New York, that needs visitors to go and buy tickets to visit the facilities) needs inductees to keep the gravy train going.

I dunno, closers tend to bring a lot in trade value so I think the fact they change teams so much is evidence of how (over-)valued they are by teams. Their "problem" is they break/decline frequently. Through age 30, Kimbrel was getting ready to stamp his HoF ticket with better rate stats than Rivera -- then he fell apart (for the Cubs natch ... but just 35 IP) and then again last year.

It is true they aren't paid that much but of course $15-20 M for 60 innings is a very nice rate of pay.

Gossage is kinda over-rated. His 1975, 77 and 78 are amazing but otherwise there's not a huge amount there relative to others. From 33-42, he was pretty ordinary. Take out his starter season and it's 1100 innings, 2.64 ERA, 231 saves, about a 150 ERA+. That's a little better than Sutter (1042 IP, 136 ERA+, 300 saves), Smith (1300 IP, 132 ERA+, 478 saves) and Hoffman (1100 IP, 141 ERA+ 600 saves). Fingers too threw a lot more IP/year than Smith and Hoffman particularly but his career edge is mainly due to some pretty mediocre seasons.

Wilhelm, Rivera ... I'd probably have been OK with Kimbrel if he'd kept it up a bit longer. No need for more than that.

EDIT: I'll agree Gossage should probably be #3 on the all-time reliever/fireman/closer list.

Re 5:
HOW DO YOU CLOSE SOMETHING THAT'S NOT OPEN, MR PRESIDENT?

#9 - If only there were full time pitchers and players at other positions they could induct instead...? (Insert thoughtful face emoji)

Just took a look at Gossages career in case I missed something and I did. In 1976 he was a starter (29 starts, 2 relief games) and he made the All-Star team. Looks like at the time of the game he had a 2.91 ERA over 15 games, 14 starts, 8 complete games, but just a 5-3 record which in that era was often all they looked at. After that in 16 games (15 starts) he had a 5.08 ERA and was 4-10. He never started a game again - his last start was 8 IP 7 H 3 R 2 BB 5 SO. Kind of surprised they didn't keep him in the rotation, but that 2nd half ERA over 5 killed him I suspect. He had a 1.62 ERA in relief the next year over 133 IP, a 146 ERA+ over the rest of his career once they fully gave up on using him in the rotation. Pitching until age 42 is very impressive. Forgot that his final season was in Seattle where he was 3-0 with 1 save (no blown) and 3 holds with a 117 ERA+ over 47 IP - a shame he didn't keep going, but it was the strike year (1994) and I suspect he just said 'screw it' after that year.

A fun player back then - like most of his era he is a grumpy old man last I heard, complaining about the kids today who throw 1 inning and are done.

Wow, the article is really incoherent. The quote above about Hoffman being a failed starter is not the only egregious error. He claims Wagner is not, yet Wagner never pitched in relief as a minor leagurer, absolutely 100% failed starter. There are other oddities as well, although I'm decidedly NOT recommending anyone read the entire article.

12, so you accept the premise that the HoF needs as many inductees as it can get.

Good.

6&8, 1930, AL saves leader = Lefty Grove, pretty good starting pitcher at the same time.

#15 - The HOF needs as many WORTHY inductees as it can get. I don't think it's a good thing when they lower their standards and induct Harold Baines (or Billy Wagner) caliber of players. That just waters it down and cheapens the honor.

He claims Wagner is not, yet Wagner never pitched in relief as a minor leagurer, absolutely 100% failed starter.

Wagner had a 3.10 ERA in the minors. It's hard to call that failing. The Astros simply never tried to use him as a starter, perhaps out of fear that, as a 5'10" flamethrower, he'd break down.

Wagner had a 3.10 ERA in the minors. It's hard to call that failing.

I'd agree, except that i "failed starter" Mariano Rivera was more than half-a-run better (2.35 including the relief stints in his first 2 years in the minors).

Won a Cy when closers were still viewed as mysteries (37 saves, 10 blown in 101 IP in '79 with a 2.22 ERA - today that wouldn't get him a single Cy vote I suspect).

To be fair to Sutter here, 8 of the 10 blown saves involved outings longer than 1 inning, with 6 being 2 IP or more (and one being 5 innings long). 2-3 inning saves are easier to blow than the shorter variety. (Still not an ideal Cy Young choice compared to Phil Niekro or JR Richard, take your pick.)

Yeah, failed starter isn't really a thing for most of these guys. Gagne, Nathan, sure. But Rivera and Wagner and Papelbon and others went immediately or almost immediately into the bullpen and were so good there that their teams never gave them another (or a first) shot at the MLB rotation.

A lot of modern closers and relief aces could probably have Wainwrighted it, but never got the opportunity.

needs inductees to keep the gravy train going.

When I moved upstate I parlayed my work at MLBAM into a decent set of interviews at the HOF for a position (I of course failed to get). The point is, however, I think calling it a “gravy train” is somewhat hilarious. It’s not exactly Wolf of Wall Street or Cravath or Halliburton salary range.

I'd agree, except that i "failed starter" Mariano Rivera was more than half-a-run better (2.35 including the relief stints in his first 2 years in the minors).

Mariano had a 5.94 ERA over 10 major league starts. Wagner never started in the majors.

17, inducting Harold Baines, while keeping out Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire and Sosa, if you want to dig further) tells me that the HoF can live with candidates that aren't all that worthy.

22, I'm pretty sure that the mucky mucks at the HoF are very well compensated. They don't need to be billionaires.

You can see their non profit filings online. I would guess there’s probably 3 “mucky mucks”

This would be easier to show on discord.

2019 salaries.

President makes like 400k

All those execs made like 1.3 million combined and then almost 300k in other forms of compensation


Most of the pay for the VPs seem kind of low for veeps but I’m sure it’s pretty good for upstate NY. Then again you have to live in upstate NY to get it.

There were definitely good relievers in the 1930s. But their roles were more flexible – they would start games occasionally, or go back and forth between relief and starting. And they didn't tend to make whole careers of it. Teams would put a guy in the role temporarily, get a good season or two out of him; if he got too successful he might go back into the rotation. Mace Brown, Pete Appleton, Jack Russell as mentioned.

And they were inconsistent. (Kind of like relievers nowadays.) Joe Heving, who until Wilhelm held the record for IP in relief, went 5-1 with an ERA of 1.68 in 80 relief innings in 1933 – and then 1-5 with an ERA of 6.91 in 82 relief innings in 1934. Heving's annual ERA+ numbers are a roller-coaster, lurching between 65 and 173 without warning.

baxter brought up Lefty Grove, which is another interesting dynamic. We've mentioned this before, but no starter between 1917 and Denny McLain won 30 starts in a season. Not Grove not Bagby or Coombs, not Dizzy Dean – even Walter Johnson never won 30 starts in a season. The staff ace was often ace reliever. Which of course means that relief pitchers were not much of a role, but relief pitching certainly was. But that gets folded into the HOF cases of pitchers like Johnson or Grove, not that they need it.

And even early in the 20th century, you see experiments … the Senators had a couple of guys in the 1910s, Doc Ayers and Bert Gallia, who threw a lot of relief innings in numerous appearances. They were also semi-regular starters, so not specialists; but they seem to have been thought of as go-to "bullpen" guys. Gallia was good briefly, Ayers very good for a while longer.

I can imagine in the early days of baseball the economics of the game factored heavily into teams not using dedicated relievers.

I think Rivera is the only pitcher used exclusively in relief who has a plausible argument for the Hall (I think he clearly belongs, but clearly see the case as for why he doesn't).

27, pretty good for upstate if you are willing to live in upstate NY AND if you want to work for the Baseball HoF.

Don't discount the latter.

Oh sure, I bet most of them are fanboys and wouldn’t be shocked if they are from the area.

President makes like 400k

This explains it. Harold Baines got in so that Tim Mead can have a 3-car garage at his pretty house in Middlefield.

Wagner had a 3.10 ERA in the minors. It's hard to call that failing. The Astros simply never tried to use him as a starter, perhaps out of fear that, as a 5'10" flamethrower, he'd break down.

I see, so he was so successful as a starter they decided to make him a reliever. Makes sense.

It seems to me a pitcher either is tried out as a starter or as a reliever based on how many pitches the team thinks they can throw at the major league. If they have 2 good pitches or less they are a reliever.

It certainly looka like the Astros intended from the beginning to make Wagner a reliever

I would say that since he never started a major league game, it would be tricky to characterize him as a successful or failed starter.

I can imagine in the early days of baseball the economics of the game factored heavily into teams not using dedicated relievers.

Yes, no one wanted to pay extra salary to extra players, nor did the other owners want their partners to set the precedent. That said, there were philosophical reasons (like finishing what one started) and other inertia. As-of-right in game substitutes were banned and then first made permanently legal in 1891. Some players had to be able play multiple positions.

This continued well into the early 1900s. No player wanted to be a major league bench player, for reasons of pride, regular playing time, maintaining game ability, and salary. Pitchers were required to face one batter starting only in 1909, which meant that relief pitchers had to warm up in anticipation of being brought in, rather than have the manager insert a "reliever" to buy time by throwing warm up pitches on the mound.

Mariano had a 5.94 ERA over 10 major league starts. Wagner never started in the majors.

Wow, a whole 10 games. Who can't predict from 10 games in first season. It's not like he didn't develop a pitch or anything, or go in the DL that year with a sore shouldder.

But sure, stick to your silly narrative.

(Of course, after 5 failed starts over 2 years Curt Schilling was demoted to bullpen for two years, second of which he pitched to a 3.81 ERA. Total Loser!)

And of course there was an earlier generation of guys in the 1920s and '30s who specialized or at least made their biggest impression as relievers: Firpo Marberry, Jack Russell, and others who were better known as starters but also relieved as a major role during their careers (Eddie Rommel, Waite Hoyt, Bill Sherdel). Later on, Johnny Murphy; and Joe Page was a big star for a while, and Jim Konstanty had been an MVP two years before Wilhelm was in the majors.

Johnny Murphy was really the first effective relief specialist, and not until the 1930s, and only for the Yankees who had a forward thinking manager and the budget to spend.

For combined seasons, up to 1940, At least 60% games in relief, At least 40 Games, At least 40 Games, in the regular season, requiring Adjusted OPS+ <= 100, sorted by descending Games Finished. [ETA: min 100 GF]

                                                                                                                                         
Rk            Player  GF OPS+ From   To   Age   W   L W-L% Dec  ERA   G  GS CG SV     IP ERA+  IR  IS IS% BSv  SV%  GR                    Team
1     Firpo Marberry 272   85 1923 1936 24-37 148  88 .627 236 3.63 551 186 86 99 2067.1  116 347 133  38  30 76.7 365             DET NYG WSH
2        Clint Brown 216   91 1928 1940 24-36  85  89 .489 174 4.31 386 130 62 59 1402.1  109 251 115  46  21 73.8 256                 CHW CLE
3        Syl Johnson 206   92 1922 1940 21-39 112 117 .489 229 4.06 542 209 82 43 2165.2  105 262 118  45  22 66.2 333         CIN DET PHI STL
4      Johnny Murphy 164   83 1932 1940 23-31  65  34 .657  99 3.81 253  40 17 63  742.0  113 193  76  39  27 70.0 213                     NYY
5     Sarge Connally 163  100 1921 1934 22-35  49  60 .450 109 4.30 304  67 32 31  994.0   99 216  92  43  17 64.6 237                 CHW CLE
6        Wilcy Moore 161   87 1927 1933 30-36  51  44 .537  95 3.70 261  32 14 49  691.0  110 252 124  49  19 72.1 229                 BOS NYY
7      Pete Appleton 156   94 1927 1940 23-36  55  62 .470 117 4.30 302  71 33 24 1058.0  105 186  77  41  10 70.6 231 BOS CHW CIN CLE NYY WSH
8      Allen Russell 154   96 1915 1925 21-31  70  76 .480 146 3.52 345 112 54 42 1394.1   99 139  53  38   7 85.7 233             BOS NYY WSH
9          Jakie May 150   98 1917 1932 21-36  72  95 .431 167 3.88 410 159 70 19 1562.1   97 212  89  42   7 73.1 251             CHC CIN STL
10        Joe Heving 147   99 1930 1940 29-39  56  39 .590  95 4.43 280  33 15 38  724.2  103 208  95  46  14 73.1 247         BOS CHW CLE NYG
11   Garland Braxton 130   91 1921 1933 21-33  50  53 .485 103 4.13 282  71 28 29  938.0  101 159  63  40   9 76.3 211     BSN CHW NYY SLB WSH
12        Mace Brown 127   95 1935 1940 26-31  55  45 .550 100 3.68 261  55 18 29  851.1  106 185  72  39  13 69.0 206                     PIT
13         Rosy Ryan 103   92 1919 1933 21-35  51  47 .520  98 4.14 248  75 30 19  881.0   91 113  38  34  11 63.3 173         BRO BSN NYG NYY
14       Herman Bell 101   89 1924 1934 26-36  32  34 .485  66 3.69 221  47 14 24  663.1  108 143  61  43   7 77.4 174                 NYG STL

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 12/30/2022.

Limiting this filter to only 60% games in relief is really low.

For combined seasons, from 1947 to 1968, At least 60% games in relief, At least 40 Games, At least 40 Games, in the regular season, requiring Adjusted OPS+ <= 100, sorted by descending Games Finished. (min 100 GF)

                                                                                                                        
Rk             Player  GF OPS+ From   To   Age   W   L W-L% Dec  ERA   G  GS CG  SV     IP ERA+  IR  IS IS% BSv  SV%  GR
1        Hoyt Wilhelm 554   70 1952 1968 29-45 130 108 .546 238 2.47 937  52 20 197 2049.0  149 639 218  34  65 75.2 885
2            Roy Face 547   93 1953 1968 25-40 100  93 .518 193 3.45 804  27  6 186 1315.2  110 583 209  36  62 75.0 777
3          Stu Miller 406   87 1952 1968 24-40 105 103 .505 208 3.24 704  93 24 153 1693.1  115 505 161  32  40 79.3 611
4      Lindy McDaniel 370   90 1955 1968 19-32 101  86 .540 187 3.57 668  66 15 124 1461.1  109 542 182  34  51 70.9 602
5         Don McMahon 357   87 1957 1968 27-38  58  48 .547 106 2.82 630   2  0 105  968.2  124 477 173  36  41 71.9 628
6      Ron Perranoski 310   89 1961 1968 25-32  60  48 .556 108 2.61 514   1  0 106  837.0  128 428 143  33  33 76.3 513
7      Al Worthington 295   89 1953 1968 24-39  71  81 .467 152 3.32 556  69 11 108 1185.2  113 396 124  31  38 74.0 487
8       Ted Abernathy 288   99 1955 1968 22-35  42  53 .442  95 3.78 459  34  7 104  840.2   98 283 107  38  37 73.8 425
9         Clem Labine 288   86 1950 1962 23-35  77  56 .579 133 3.63 513  38  7  94 1079.2  112 397 163  41  30 75.8 475
10        Dick Radatz 280   80 1962 1967 25-30  50  37 .575  87 2.98 348   0  0 117  640.1  129 266  86  32  38 75.5 348
11       Turk Farrell 274   98 1956 1968 22-34 103 107 .491 210 3.42 544 134 41  80 1630.1  104 331 110  33  37 68.4 410
12      Jim Konstanty 259   94 1948 1956 31-39  60  43 .583 103 3.52 403  23  9  76  817.2  112 305 114  37  23 76.8 380
13         Bill Henry 251   89 1952 1968 24-40  46  50 .479  96 3.28 524  44 12  90  908.0  119 526 154  29  30 75.0 480
14       Gerry Staley 246   94 1947 1961 26-40 134 111 .547 245 3.70 640 186 58  61 1981.2  109 405 151  37  32 65.6 454
15       Ellis Kinder 243   83 1947 1957 32-42  99  68 .593 167 3.44 451 115 55 103 1393.0  126 387 130  34  25 80.5 336
16     Jack Baldschun 235   98 1961 1967 24-30  40  39 .506  79 3.42 384   0  0  59  613.2  107 278 115  41  24 71.1 384
17       Eddie Fisher 224   88 1959 1968 22-31  56  42 .571  98 3.32 433  36  5  65  971.1  104 233  70  30  15 81.3 397
18        Jim Brosnan 201   94 1954 1963 24-33  55  47 .539 102 3.54 385  47  7  68  831.1  112 244  80  33  22 75.6 338
19     Hal Woodeshick 196   97 1956 1967 23-34  44  62 .415 106 3.56 427  62  7  61  847.1  103 335 111  33  29 67.8 365
20     Mike Fornieles 195   97 1952 1963 20-31  63  64 .496 127 3.96 432  76 20  55 1156.2  100 327 114  35  23 70.5 356
21       Bobby Shantz 192   88 1949 1964 23-38 119  99 .546 218 3.38 537 171 78  48 1935.2  119 296 107  36  25 65.8 366
22          Dick Hall 189   89 1952 1968 21-37  72  62 .537 134 3.35 397  74 20  61 1089.1  110 253  70  28  19 76.3 323
23       Marv Grissom 175   92 1949 1959 31-41  47  43 .522  90 3.39 352  49 12  57  791.1  117 241  89  37  23 71.3 303
24        Frank Smith 173   90 1950 1956 22-28  35  33 .515  68 3.81 271   7  1  44  495.2  107 215  85  40  22 66.7 264
25          Al Brazle 170   89 1947 1954 33-40  78  52 .600 130 3.45 392  93 33  59 1135.2  119 237  90  38  20 74.7 299
26        Frank Linzy 169   77 1963 1968 22-27  32  29 .525  61 2.15 230   1  0  65  389.2  159 186  51  27  20 76.5 229
27           Joe Page 167   88 1947 1954 29-36  37  31 .544  68 3.45 215   3  0  73  449.1  114 201  78  39  25 74.5 212
28       Fritz Dorish 165   92 1947 1956 25-34  45  43 .511  88 3.83 323  40 13  48  834.1  106 250  92  37  13 78.7 283
29          Al McBean 165   97 1961 1968 23-30  65  43 .602 108 3.03 369  75 22  58 1006.0  114 201  71  35  20 74.4 294
30         Bob Miller 162   94 1957 1968 18-29  39  57 .406  96 3.43 418  73  6  30 1020.1  103 282  94  33  16 65.2 345
31          Ted Wilks 161   81 1947 1953 31-37  30  19 .612  49 3.55 291   3  2  45  512.0  116 218  77  35  13 77.6 288
32            Bob Lee 152   84 1964 1968 26-30  25  23 .521  48 2.71 269   7  0  64  492.0  124 191  77  40  23 73.6 262
33        Tom Ferrick 148   85 1947 1952 32-37  25  27 .481  52 3.66 222   0  0  40  423.0  115 151  67  44  13 75.5 222
34          Ray Moore 148   99 1952 1963 26-37  63  59 .516 122 4.06 365 105 24  47 1072.2   94 209  58  28  17 73.4 260
35          Don Mossi 148   86 1954 1965 25-36 101  80 .558 181 3.43 460 165 55  50 1548.0  115 277  87  31  20 71.4 295
36         Hal Reniff 148   88 1961 1967 22-28  21  23 .477  44 3.27 276   0  0  45  471.1  106 143  49  34  10 81.8 276
37          Terry Fox 146   92 1960 1966 24-30  29  19 .604  48 2.99 248   0  0  59  397.0  127 226  66  29  17 77.6 248
38         Ryne Duren 144   85 1954 1965 25-36  27  44 .380  71 3.83 311  32  2  55  589.1   98 158  58  37  17 76.4 279
39         Art Fowler 134   92 1954 1964 31-41  54  51 .514 105 4.03 362  90 25  32 1024.0  101 224  73  33  14 69.6 272
40         Tom Gorman 132   97 1952 1959 27-34  36  36 .500  72 3.77 289  33  5  44  689.1  105 229  71  31  16 73.3 256
41       Ray Narleski 132   88 1954 1959 25-30  43  33 .566  76 3.60 266  52 17  58  702.0  107 166  41  25  12 82.9 214
42        Billy Hoeft 130  100 1952 1966 20-34  97 101 .490 198 3.94 505 200 75  33 1847.1   99 281 106  38  19 63.5 305
43         Bob Locker 128   78 1965 1968 27-30  26  19 .578  45 2.47 254   0  0  44  401.1  127 207  58  28  15 74.6 254
44          Wes Stock 128   97 1959 1967 25-33  27  13 .675  40 3.60 321   3  0  22  517.1  102 230  73  32   7 75.9 318
45          Hal White 127   95 1947 1954 28-35  26  29 .473  55 4.18 255  17  3  22  489.1  101 203  81  40  13 62.9 238
46       Billy McCool 125   89 1964 1968 19-23  29  34 .460  63 3.38 220  20  0  50  448.0  110 142  44  31  17 74.6 200
47     Barney Schultz 121   85 1955 1965 28-38  20  20 .500  40 3.63 227   0  0  35  346.2  109 146  46  32  20 63.6 227
48           Bob Grim 120   94 1954 1962 24-32  61  41 .598 102 3.61 268  60 18  38  759.2  105 162  66  41  20 65.5 208
49      Fred Gladding 119   87 1961 1968 25-32  26  11 .703  37 2.85 224   1  0  35  341.1  125 156  53  34  11 76.1 223
50        Luis Arroyo 118   98 1955 1963 28-36  40  32 .556  72 3.93 244  36 10  45  531.1   98 199  87  44  22 67.2 208
51      Dutch Leonard 117   83 1947 1953 38-44  55  57 .491 112 3.10 265  89 45  29  925.2  130 139  64  46  18 61.7 176
52      Moe Drabowsky 114   99 1956 1968 20-32  65  90 .419 155 3.81 404 154 33  30 1378.2   99 188  74  39  14 68.2 250
53     Steve Hamilton 114   87 1961 1968 26-33  30  22 .577  52 2.98 284  17  3  33  496.0  118 272  79  29  17 66.0 267
54       Hank Aguirre 112   85 1955 1968 24-37  71  72 .497 143 3.25 389 149 44  31 1316.1  116 220  69  31  14 68.9 240
55      Hersh Freeman 111   95 1952 1958 23-29  30  16 .652  46 3.74 204   3  1  36  359.0  110 144  51  35  14 72.0 201
56      Satchel Paige 110   85 1947 1965 40-58  28  33 .459  61 3.25 184  30  8  33  495.0  127 143  51  36  14 70.2 154
57   Bobby Tiefenauer 110   99 1952 1968 22-38   9  25 .265  34 3.84 179   0  0  23  316.0   95  87  46  53   8 74.2 179
58      Dooley Womack 110   97 1966 1968 26-28  15  16 .484  31 2.70 152   1  0  24  233.2  116 103  30  29   6 80.0 151
59        Joe Hoerner 106   77 1963 1968 26-31  17   7 .708  24 2.02 169   0  0  44  205.0  166 176  61  35  12 78.6 169
60   Marshall Bridges 103   99 1959 1965 28-34  23  15 .605  38 3.75 206   5  1  25  345.1  103 158  54  34  12 67.6 201
61        Dave Sisler 103  100 1956 1962 24-30  38  44 .463  82 4.33 247  59 12  28  656.1   96 168  72  43  12 70.0 188
62          Dick Hyde 101   91 1955 1961 26-32  17  14 .548  31 3.56 169   2  0  25  298.1  109 105  39  37  11 69.4 167

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 12/30/2022.

Wow, a whole 10 games. Who can't predict from 10 games in first season. It's not like he didn't develop a pitch or anything, or go in the DL that year with a sore shouldder.

But sure, stick to your silly narrative.

(Of course, after 5 failed starts over 2 years Curt Schilling was demoted to bullpen for two years, second of which he pitched to a 3.81 ERA. Total Loser!)

I don't have a narrative, jerk. Just pointing out that the "failed starter" comparison between Mariano and Wagner doesn't make sense. Now go back under your rock.

I think third basemen have a better argument for underrepresentation in the HOF than any other position:

Scott Rolen
Dick Allen
Graig Nettles
Buddy Bell
Sal Bando
Darrell Evans
Santo took forever to get in.

You could argue for second basemen of a certain era, as well: Grich, Whitaker, Randolph

At catcher, SS, and to some extent CF, great defense has been rewarded. At other positions, such as 1B and the corner outfielders, great offense has been rewarded. But 3B and 2B are more of a hybrid of expectations, and has made it more difficult for voters to reach consensus on what a Hall of Fame 3B or 2B is.

bobm, yes, you're right – much depends on how one defines a pitcher's role. Before Murphy, one can make a case that no pitcher was a "reliever"; OTOH, Firpo Marberry, if you asked the average fan what was unusual about him, might say "He's that pitcher [period] who comes in a lot in relief."

So by the early 1930s, for sure, roles on a staff were evolving, even if a pitcher's overall career identity was still far from being "starter" or "reliever."

Take the 1933 Giants, picked kind of at random. Carl Hubbell was the ace starter and the ace reliever: the "stopper," I don't know if that term was current then but it was at some point. Hubbell had 33 starts (20-11, 1.77) and 12 relief appearances, evidently high-leverage because he finished 11 games and went 3-1 (0.78 ERA) with five "saves."

Meanwhile on that staff, Hal Schumacher, Freddie Fitzsimmons, and Roy Parmalee made 103 starts and had three relief appearances among them. But Herman Bell had 31 relief appearances, 7 starts, and Dolf Luque 35 games, all in relief. Something was moving towards guys "knowing their roles," at least on certain teams in certain years.

#42 - Ken Boyer and maybe Stan Hack too.

That said, 3B is underrepresented in the HOF because there were virtually no great 3B for the first half of baseball history. According to JAWS, none of the top dozen and only 1 of the top 20 3B played before 1950 (Baker at #13). In the 2nd half of MLB history, 3B are represented at a comparable rate to other positions: Mathews, Robinson, Santo, Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Molitor (if you consider him a 3B), Edgar (ditto), Chipper, Rolen looks likely to get in this year, Beltre will get in next year, ARod would already be in if it wasn't for...well, you know. Machado and Arenado and maybe Jose Ramirez are good bets for the future. Do we really need to make up for the dearth of great 3B in the 1st half of the 20th century by inducting twice as many from the 2nd half?

Most the guys listed in #42 are "cuz WAR says so" candidates anyway that would elicit a general "WTF?!" response from non SABR oriented fans if they were selected. Be honest...did ANYONE here think Bell, Evan's, Bando, and maybe even Nettles were HOFers at the time of their retirement?

Another significant trend, given the mention of economics and rosters, is the median number of pitchers used per team. This has doubtless been the focus of lots of articles, it's just interesting to look at again. Number of pitchers used does not equal number on the bench for any given game, but it probably correlates well with it. By decade:

1893-99: 10
1900-09: 10
1910-19: 13
1920-29: 13
1930-39: 13
1940-49: 15
1950-59: 16
1960-69: 16
1970-79: 16
1980-89: 16
1990-99: 20
2000-09: 23
2010-19: 26
2021-22: 33

The 25-man roster seems to date from 1910, so that was likely a factor in ratcheting upward from 10 to 13 pitchers used (before that, roster limits varied from roughly 13 to 18). I don't know why the number edged up again in the 1940s: the uncertainties of wartime rosters, maybe; but then it stayed where it was for a very long time till growing uncontrollably of late :)

In any case, I imagine teams could have used a lot more pitchers at any point, but there was long perceived to be more value in carrying extra position players, and that limited pitching specialization. (No great original point here, just some basics.)

3B and 2B are more of a hybrid of expectations, and has made it more difficult for voters to reach consensus on what a Hall of Fame 3B or 2B is.

That is because 3B and 2B swapped positions on the defensive spectrum in the middle of the 20th century.

The 25 man roster was the maximum but i believe lots of team wouldn't carry 25 men.

Like the 1912 Giants had 28 players appears in agame for them that year but 7 of them got into 3 games or less. It's likely they went with a 20 to 21 man roster for most of the season.

Another chart in favor of Lindy McDaniel in the Hall. WAR is obviously an imperfect metric but he's second to Wilhelm from what I can see During this era.

the 1912 Giants had 28 players appears in agame for them

Cheaters!

It kind of looks like the 1912 Giants had a 6 man pitching staff for almost the entire year. 4 other guys got a total of 5 starts. Those 4 guys plus 2 more guys that got 3 innings pitched 47 of the 1370 innings thrown for the Giants.

Doc Crandall was the swing man who would start or come in to finish someone else's game the most.

4 of the 6 pitchers got their debut in September which would imply they weren't on the roster all year. Of the other 2 only one of them look like they had any kind of real chance to have been on the roster all year.

Another chart in favor of Lindy McDaniel in the Hall. WAR is obviously an imperfect metric but he's second to Wilhelm from what I can see During this era.

Firpo Marberry has nearly 31. But its a good pt. McDaniel has 25 more saves than Marberry and 600 less innings. I was gonna make an argument that perhaps we should give these early relievers more credit if they were put in more highly leveraged situations but I think thats a huge assumption.

But sure, stick to your silly narrative.

totally unwarranted attack there. You're acting like this is some sort of trumping pt:

It's not like he didn't develop a pitch or anything, or go in the DL that year with a sore shouldder.

developing a sore shoulder seems like it could certainly work to Adams pt. So its not like you're even presenting much of a counter argument.

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The 25 man roster was the maximum but i believe lots of team wouldn't carry 25 men.

I wish you could add a time frame to this to give it more context. At some pt. MLB did require them to carry 25 but Im not sure if this was in the 30s the 40s or when.

Like the 1912 Giants had 28 players appears in a game for them that year but 7 of them got into 3 games or less

Yes, I got the impression from reading Charles Alexander's biography of John McGraw that the basic lineup was of course set, but they might pick up a guy here or there as they traveled to try him out briefly. Hence the Moonlight Graham appearance, etc. Sometimes those guys would make good. Dave Robertson on the 1912 team was right out of college, had just two at-bats for the Giants. He played the next season in Mobile but returned to be a regular for the Giants for several years, went 11-for-22 in the 1917 World Series.

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Re 56. I feel like that was in the 60s or 70s where the minimum was 24.
Edit. Looks like 1977

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24 man minimum dates only to 1977. A 25 man max seems to be in place since 1919 (w/ exceptions for Sept and first 30 days). They clearly werent carry anywhere near the max in those days, but its unclear as to when they started to hit the max number.

Not sure I owe you a coke on that edit there.

You do. You do.

I was looking at the 1937 Cardinals and their manager Frisch got into games when the 25 man limit was in place which kind of implies that the Cardinals weren’t going with the max. Looking at player totals it certainly doesn’t look like they were going with 24 or 25 all season.

Number of games in a player's career that meet criteria, from 1950 to 2022, in the regular season, requiring Average Leverage Index >= 2, sorted by descending instances.

                                         
Rk                 Player From   To Count
1             John Franco 1984 2005   451
2          Mariano Rivera 1996 2013   441
3          Trevor Hoffman 1993 2010   427
4               Lee Smith 1980 1997   407
5            Jesse Orosco 1979 2003   394
6            Rich Gossage 1972 1994   363
7       Roberto Hernandez 1992 2007   348
8     Francisco Rodriguez 2003 2017   348
9              Dan Plesac 1986 2003   347
10           Kent Tekulve 1974 1989   344
11         Rollie Fingers 1969 1985   342
12             Todd Jones 1993 2008   342
13           Jeff Reardon 1979 1994   341
14        Fernando Rodney 2002 2019   337
15           Billy Wagner 1996 2010   322
16            Sparky Lyle 1967 1982   321
17           Mike Stanton 1989 2007   308
18              Jose Mesa 1994 2007   308
19      Francisco Cordero 1999 2012   308
20          Troy Percival 1995 2009   303
21           Bruce Sutter 1976 1988   302
22             Doug Jones 1982 2000   302
23            Randy Myers 1987 1998   300
24            Bob Wickman 1993 2007   285
25        Armando Benitez 1994 2008   284
26           Hoyt Wilhelm 1952 1972   277
27          Craig Kimbrel 2010 2022   274
28            Gene Garber 1970 1988   273
29             Joe Nathan 1999 2016   273
30      Jonathan Papelbon 2005 2016   272
31        Michael Jackson 1987 2004   268
32           Todd Worrell 1985 1997   267
33         Darold Knowles 1966 1979   264
34            Mike Timlin 1991 2008   264
35        Jeff Montgomery 1987 1999   261
36       Paul Assenmacher 1986 1999   260
37          Kenley Jansen 2010 2022   260
38           Gary Lavelle 1974 1987   259
39           Joakim Soria 2007 2021   258
40               Robb Nen 1994 2002   255
41         Lindy McDaniel 1956 1975   254
42       Dennis Eckersley 1975 1998   254
43         John Wetteland 1989 2000   253
44         Eddie Guardado 1995 2009   251
45         Ron Perranoski 1961 1973   248
46          Rick Aguilera 1985 2000   246
47               Roy Face 1953 1969   241
48         Roger McDowell 1985 1996   241
49          Dave Righetti 1984 1994   241
50             Tug McGraw 1965 1984   240
51               Rod Beck 1992 2004   240
52              Tom Henke 1982 1995   238
53          Mike Marshall 1967 1981   235
54        Steve Bedrosian 1981 1995   235
55         LaTroy Hawkins 2000 2015   234
56         Mitch Williams 1986 1997   233
57          Huston Street 2005 2016   231
58        Aroldis Chapman 2010 2022   230
59          Mark Melancon 2010 2022   229
60            Greg Minton 1976 1990   227
61             Dave Smith 1980 1991   227
62        Dan Quisenberry 1979 1990   220
63             Brad Lidge 2002 2012   220
64             Tom Gordon 1989 2009   218
65          Arthur Rhodes 1996 2011   217
66            Jim Johnson 2008 2018   214
67          Jose Valverde 2003 2014   213
68         David Weathers 1991 2009   211
69             Mike Myers 1995 2007   211
70          Brian Fuentes 2001 2012   210
71        David Robertson 2008 2022   210
72            Don McMahon 1957 1974   209
73       Willie Hernandez 1977 1989   208
74     Jason Isringhausen 1999 2012   208
75          Terry Forster 1971 1986   204
76           Steve Cishek 2011 2022   202
77           Dave LaRoche 1970 1982   201
78          Tom Burgmeier 1968 1984   198
79          Mike Henneman 1987 1996   198
80          Jeff Brantley 1989 2001   198
81          Octavio Dotel 2000 2013   198
82             Heath Bell 2004 2014   198
83              Jeff Shaw 1991 2001   197
84            Sergio Romo 2008 2022   197
85            Al Hrabosky 1970 1982   196
86            Jeff Nelson 1992 2006   196
87          Ted Abernathy 1955 1972   195
88             Jim Brewer 1961 1976   195
89          Matt Thornton 2004 2015   195
90            Chad Qualls 2004 2017   195
91             Jay Howell 1983 1994   194
92            Gregg Olson 1988 2001   194
93             Stu Miller 1953 1968   192
94            Tony Watson 2011 2021   192
95          Grant Jackson 1967 1982   191
96          Bill Campbell 1973 1986   191
97            Ryan Madson 2004 2018   191
98          Bobby Thigpen 1986 1994   190
99              Bob Howry 1998 2010   190
100           Alan Embree 1995 2009   190
101      Santiago Casilla 2007 2018   190
102          Brad Ziegler 2008 2018   190
103         Ugueth Urbina 1995 2005   189
104          Clay Carroll 1964 1977   188
105           Buddy Groom 1992 2005   188
106           Joe Hoerner 1966 1977   186
107        Tippy Martinez 1974 1986   186
108        Paul Quantrill 1992 2005   186
109          Javier Lopez 2003 2016   186
110          Mike Fetters 1990 2004   184
111       Kyle Farnsworth 2000 2014   183
112      Jonathan Broxton 2005 2017   182
113             Joe Smith 2007 2022   182
114        Craig Lefferts 1983 1994   181
115          Jeff Russell 1986 1996   181
116           Steve Kline 1997 2007   181
117        Rafael Soriano 2003 2015   181
118        Tyler Clippard 2009 2021   180
119             J.J. Putz 2004 2014   178
120            Steve Howe 1980 1996   177
121           Bob McClure 1975 1993   177
122          Mark Wohlers 1991 2002   177
123         Randy Moffitt 1972 1983   176
124          Greg Holland 2010 2022   175
125       Ricky Bottalico 1995 2005   174
126             B.J. Ryan 2000 2009   174
127     Rafael Betancourt 2003 2015   174
128     Antonio Alfonseca 1997 2007   174
129           John Hiller 1965 1979   173
130         Norm Charlton 1989 2001   173
131            Elias Sosa 1972 1983   172
132             Tim Burke 1985 1992   172
133           Frank Linzy 1965 1974   170
134            Edwin Diaz 2016 2022   170
135            Steve Reed 1992 2005   169
136        Scott Radinsky 1990 2001   168
137         Braden Looper 1998 2006   164
138          Damaso Marte 2001 2010   164
139            Cody Allen 2012 2019   164
140           Bob Stanley 1977 1989   163
141        Luke Gregerson 2009 2018   163
142           Dave Giusti 1965 1977   162
143        Al Worthington 1954 1969   161
144           Kevin Gregg 2004 2014   161
145          Brandon Lyon 2003 2013   160
146           J.C. Romero 2002 2011   159
147            Bob Locker 1965 1975   158
148          Brian Wilson 2006 2014   158
149        Larry Andersen 1977 1994   157
150    Heathcliff Slocumb 1991 2000   157
151          Mark Guthrie 1991 2003   157
152        Rick Honeycutt 1977 1996   156
153            John Wyatt 1961 1969   155
154            Mark Davis 1984 1997   155
155           Tim Worrell 1996 2006   155
156            Dave Veres 1994 2003   155
157            Dan Miceli 1993 2006   155
158         Carlos Marmol 2007 2014   154
159          Jason Frasor 2004 2015   153
160          Stan Belinda 1990 2000   152
161          Keith Foulke 1997 2008   152
162        Jeremy Affeldt 2002 2015   152
163        Joaquin Benoit 2003 2017   152
164          Addison Reed 2012 2018   152
165            Bill Henry 1953 1968   151
166            Doug Henry 1991 2001   150
167             Ron Davis 1979 1987   149
168          Danny Graves 1996 2006   149
169            Matt Capps 2006 2012   149
170           Alex Colome 2015 2022   149
171         Paul Lindblad 1966 1978   148
172              Jim Kern 1976 1986   148
173             Mel Rojas 1990 1998   148
174           Scott Downs 2006 2014   148
175            Will Smith 2013 2022   148
176           Tony Fossas 1989 1998   147
177           Terry Adams 1995 2005   147
178         Blake Treinen 2014 2021   147
179            Steve Farr 1984 1994   146
180      Trevor Rosenthal 2012 2020   146
181            Danys Baez 2001 2011   145
182             Jack Aker 1964 1974   144
183           Greg Harris 1981 1995   144
184            Billy Koch 1999 2004   144
185          Bill Caudill 1979 1987   143
186           John Axford 2010 2018   143
187        Tom Niedenfuer 1981 1990   142
188         Curt Leskanic 1993 2004   142
189         Wayne Granger 1968 1976   141
190            Mark Clear 1979 1988   141
191              Jim Gott 1983 1995   141
192        Jeurys Familia 2013 2022   141
193             Doug Bair 1977 1990   140
194          Bryan Harvey 1988 1994   140
195            Eric Plunk 1987 1999   140
196         Chuck McElroy 1989 2001   140
197        Mike Remlinger 1995 2006   140
198             Ron Kline 1955 1970   139
199         Fred Gladding 1961 1973   139
200        Ricardo Rincon 1997 2008   139

Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 12/30/2022.

I still can’t get on board with putting closers in the Hall of Fame. Yes, all modern teams use closers and yes, Wagner (and others) are among the top few of them. But all modern teams also use DHs, who are heavily penalized for being DHs. First, they are statistically downgraded for not playing defense (but not given credit for hitting well at a position where most players struggle). On top of that, as we’ve seen with Edgar Martinez, they are sometimes additionally held out of the Hall even though their numbers merit inclusion.

In contrast, relievers seem to get the opposite treatment. Their innings are given more weight when calculating WAR because they occur in higher leverage situations. Even with this adjustment, their numbers do not come close other Hall of Famers, but they are still given serious consideration and somewhat regularly inducted. So we see Blyleven lingering on the ballot for years and several other starters with 60+ WAR not meriting inclusion, while Hoffman and Smith get in with less than 60 WAR combined.

Relieving is just not that hard, compared to starting. And it’s not that valuable. But we insist on having these players in the Hall. I don’t get it. (And yes, there are obvious exceptions, including Papi and Mariano.)

Another data point--MLB teams do not seem to think closers are very valuable either. In any given year, the top contracts handed out to starters are twice the AAV of those handed out to relievers, and they are usually for more years. From 2020 to present (as far as the FG free agent trackers go) you have:

Top starters
Cole 9/324, 36 AAV
Strasburg 7/245, 36 AAV
DeGrom 5/185, 37 AAV
Scherzer 3/130, 43 AAV
Verlander 2/86, 43 AAV

Top relievers
Diaz 5/102, 21 AAV
Hendricks 3/54, 18 AAV
Iglesias 4/58, 15 AAV
Jansen 2/32, 16 AAV

Cole and Diaz are interesting comps. Both entering age 29, coming off excellent seasons. Cole got 3 times the total money and nearly twice the AAV. Hendricks and Strasburg match up as well: early 30s, among the top few at their position, Strasburg with more injury history–Strasburg gets 5 times the total money, double the AAV.

Meanwhile here are some starter comps for the contracts received by those top relievers:

Ray, 5/115, 23 AAV
Keuchel 3/55, 18 AAV
Gray 4/56, 14 AAV
Eovaldi 2/34, 17 AAV

These are #2-3 starters, most with some serious question marks. Teams value them as highly as the best closers available. However you slice it, the story is the same. Teams put a far higher value on top starters than they do on top relievers. And this is happening at a time when starters are throwing fewer innings than ever.

The 1927 Yankees (who went 110-44 and of course swept the WS) used a total of ..... 25 players all season.
15 hitters and 10 pitchers, which was still common into the 1970s (25 at a time, that is).

Waite Hoyt 22-7
Wilcy Moore 19-7 (mostly in relief)
Herb Pennock 19-8
Urban Shocker 18-6
Dutch Ruether 13-6
George Pipgras 10-3
Myles Thomas 7-4 (mostly in relief)
Bob Shawkey 2-3 (mostly in relief, the final MLB season at age 36 for the 195-game winner)
Joe Giard 0-0 (27 relief innings)
Walter Beall 0-0 (1 inning on May 30)

Shawkey's first two games were starts in mid-April, but he never started another game after that.
Giard did not pitch in April, but mopped up 2 to 4 times in each other month. he didn't pitch in the minors in 1927.
but Beall tossed 107 minor league innings, so not sure who - if anyone - served as the "phantom 25th."


Batter-Fielder Starts
C - Pat Collins 74, Johnny Grabowski 56, Benny Bengough 25 (Bill Dickey arrived the following year)
1B - Lou Gehrig 155
2B - Tony Lazzeri 109, Ray Morehart 46
3B - Joe Dugan 109, Mike Gazzella 31, Lazzeri 8, Julie Vera 7
SS - Mark Koenig 120, Lazzeri 35 (152 total starts)
LF - Bob Meusel 82, Babe Ruth 56, Cedric Durst 9, Ben Paschal 8
CF - Earle Combs 151, Durst 2, Paschal 2
RF - Ruth 94 (150 total starts), Meusel 48 (130 total starts), Durst 10 (21 total starts), Paschal 3 (13 total starts)

all of the hitters appeared in at least 31 games, so the only total "cup of coffee" was Beall

Morehart, Gazzella, Paschal, and Vera did not play in the WS, but Durst got 1 AB
Hoyt, Moore, Pennock, and Pipgras did all the pitching in the WS, so only 15 of the 25 players got on the field for the WS
Beall - who was elsewhere in the second half of the season - is the only P above not listed on bb-ref re the WS

65. What exactly is this list and why the bold?
Not quite following

[68] The comment in 53 reads in part

Another chart in favor of Lindy McDaniel in the Hall. WAR is obviously an imperfect metric but he's second to Wilhelm [...] I was gonna make an argument that perhaps we should give these early relievers more credit if they were put in more highly leveraged situations but I think thats a huge assumption.

The chart attempts to quantify each player's number of high leverage appearances, with McDaniel and Wilhelm in bold to call out where they are among modern high-leverage relievers, as pioneers.

Most the guys listed in #42 are "cuz WAR says so" candidates anyway that would elicit a general "WTF?!" response from non SABR oriented fans if they were selected. Be honest...did ANYONE here think Bell, Evan's, Bando, and maybe even Nettles were HOFers at the time of their retirement?

I was pretty close on Nettles but he was a longtime fave of mine (until he was on the 84 Padres) so I was biased. I had Bell and Evans in my "most under-rated" group in real time but no way did I think they might be HoFers. But I was surprised to see that Bando's defense was so highly rated, that certainly wasn't my impression but I wouldn't have seen the A's (or Rangers or Twins/Yanks) very often. Also even as a big Cub and Reuschel fan, I still don't think he's HoF-worthy no matter what WAR or the HoM (sorta) think.

As to Dick Allen ... can we please, please, please stop pretending that he was a 3B and that him having played some 3B tells us anything about how the HoF treats 3B? He had just 646 starts at 3B, barely 4 full seasons. He had nearly 1100 starts at other positions including nearly 800 at 1B so it's not even his plurality position. And he was horrible there (and the other positions he played as well). Dick Allen was a lousy 1B who played 3B early in his career (pretty common in those days). Might as well claim Biggio as the only C with 3000 hits. (Yes, I know it's not quite that absurd.) Dick Allen is not in the HoF because he had a very short career, the writers disliked him and he walked out on his team.

24 Bob Wickman 1993 2007 285

Thus endeth the lesson.

A couple of times the point about closer salaries has been mentioned (took you guys long enough :-). It has occurred to me that, based on salary, teams roughly equate them to a top starting C. Realmuto makes a bit more than Diaz. Brian McCann 8 years ago, Yadi for a while and Contreras this year make about what Chapman and Jansen made. Solid but unspectacular starting Cs are around $8-12 a year, about the same as that next tier of relievers. I don't really have a point, it just seems interesting. One thing they have in common of course is limited playing time. (It would be interesting to see what Cs would get paid if so many weren't done by the time they reach FA.

Miguel Cabrera played more games at 3B (697) than Allen did, won 2 batting titles, both his MVP's, and his Triple Crown at the position...and I still don't think anyone thinks of him as a 3B (and rightly so).

24 Bob Wickman 1993 2007 285

Thus endeth the lesson.

If you isolate his high-save-count years (1998-2007, out 2003 for TJS), his stats are not as laughable as implied, are they?

     Year              Tm  W  L  W-L%  ERA   G  GS  GF  CG  SHO  SV    IP   H   R  ER  HR  BB  IBB  SO  HBP  BK  WP   BF  ERA+  FIP  WHIP  H9  HR9  BB9  SO9  SO/W
1998-2007 MIL,CLE,ATL,ARI 22 41  .349 3.23 526   0 431   0    0 255 527.1 518 216 189  38 198   22 434   17   2  11 2277   138 3.62 1.358 8.8  0.6  3.4  7.4  2.19

eta: A couple of times the point about closer salaries has been mentioned (took you guys long enough :-). Wickman's career earnings per BBREF exceed $42 million.

Bob Wickman was on my championship fantasy team in case you were on the fence with him and needed an extra nudge.

But all modern teams also use DHs, who are heavily penalized for being DHs. First, they are statistically downgraded for not playing defense (but not given credit for hitting well at a position where most players struggle). On top of that, as we’ve seen with Edgar Martinez, they are sometimes additionally held out of the Hall even though their numbers merit inclusion.

Actually I think you would find most teams rotate players through the DH spot to give everyday players a rest from time to time. Also, Edgar was elected to the HOF.

I was pretty close on Nettles but he was a longtime fave of mine (until he was on the 84 Padres)

Still stings, eh Walt?

69. Thank you

Still stings, eh Walt?

It stings everyone with a soul.

Nettles 1984 was my 3B on my first Rotisserie League pennant winner, no kidding.

#crossthread

#74 -- for the 6-7 years Wickman was a full-time closer ... putting him 24th on an all-time list. Was a solid but unspectacular reliever for a few years, got pushed into the closer role at 29 where he remained a solid but unspectacular reliever. Because of the way reliever usage has changed (the main lesson), this gives him a lot of "high leverage" appearances -- more than Wilhelm, more than Marshall.

Yes, Bob Wickman was about as ordinary a ML pitcher as you will ever find -- not bad but there are surely about 30 guys just as good in baseball right now (and maybe 100 who are clearly better).

Can anybody explain these leverage differences to me?

Emmanuel Clase
June 15 2022: 9b --- 0 outs a2 ... aLI = 2.78
June 16 2022: 9b --- 0 outs a2 ... aLI = 3.90 (Same opponent in the same park)

Then later (unrelated to the first two just curious)
July 31 2022: 9b --- 0 outs a2 ... aLI = 1.09

Sept 7 2022: 9b --- 0 outs a1 ... aLI = 5.55
Sept 9 2022: 9b --- 0 outs a1 ... aLI = 2.52 (diff opponent, park)

So the "leverage" of what would seem to be highly similar if not identical situations can vary by at least 3. My best guess based on these games is that, for no good reason whatsoever (at least I require a shitload of evidence it matters this much), leverage varies dramatically based on how many total runs have been scored. The Sept 7 game was a 2-1 Cle lead; the Sept 9 game was a 7-6 lead. June 15 was 7-5; June 16 was 4-2; but then July 31 was 5-3 (I really don't get one, almost seems like it has to be a data error somehow).

But surely the "scoring context" of a leverage calculation is not based on that game right? Sure, a lot of runs on a given day might tell you something about that particular day but not to the point of doubling or tripling the leverage.

[81] Because of the way reliever usage has changed (the main lesson), this gives him a lot of "high leverage" appearances -- more than Wilhelm, more than Marshall.

Agreed. I really just found it interesting how rare those 1950s-1960s relievers were on the high leverage list, compared to the later time where reliever usage became so commonplace.

Can anybody explain these leverage differences to me?

Those are average LIs across all of the batters Clase faced in each of those games. If Clase puts two batters on, that game will likely have a higher aLI than a game where he allowed only one base runner.

Did you mean to compare gmLI (game-entering leverage index) instead? You can see that in the game logs at Fangraphs and they should be equal across identical game-entering situations:

Clase game log at Fangraphs

It stings everyone with a soul.

LOL! Hey, at least you have another flag from 2016. We have none.

Yes, Bob Wickman was about as ordinary a ML pitcher as you will ever find

Bob Wickman was one of the players pictured on B-R this evening. Bob Wickman was also a failed starter.

Seeing John Franco on the top of the list reminds me of how playing too long can hurt ones chances at the HOF - he did have 424 saves which was very high at the time, but then he didn't get a single save his last 2 years, and just 8 total his last 5 seasons. I think Lee Smith was the only other one over 400 when he retired. 77.5% of runners left on base, 1.74 average leverage when entering the game (sounds high). 142 times he was pulled with the situation being worse (higher leverage), 159 times it was better (lower leverage) in theory, 774 times the game was over (couldn't have blown more than 91 leads given that is his lifetime blown saves (some would be in the 142 times he was pulled with the situation becoming worse I'm sure). Lower leverage could be blown a 1 run lead with the bases loaded by giving up a grand slam, thus lower leverage for anyone else coming in (as an extreme example).

Going by WPA he had a positive WPA in 772 games, negative in 244 games, and 0 in 103 games.

To get the toughest comparison lets go with Rivera ... we get ...
WPA he had a positive WPA in 921 games, negative in 135 games, and 0 in 49 games.
Leverage increased 39 times, decreased 74, neutral (IE: finished the game) 952 times.

Just using FanGraphs game logs - love that you can copy paste them into Excel and find this stuff out quickly for free.

This shows Franco wasn't in Rivera's league - I doubt many are. Would be interesting to run this for others but not up to that right now.

But all modern teams also use DHs, who are heavily penalized for being DHs. (...) In contrast, relievers seem to get the opposite treatment.

DHs are considered fat, old guys who don't even belong on the field...but closers are magicians, who come and save the day, a la Mighty Mouse.

#84 ... thanks, you're right, I thought aLI was the gmLI (or whatever). Since it's the latter that figures into WAR I don't have a clue why b-r lists aLI but not gmLI in the game log. You're right the ones are fg are more consistent -- not identical, for example the Sept 7 and 9 games differ by 0.12 in gmLI, but small enough that might be quality of opponent or park scoring context or something. Anyway, close enough it won't make much difference.

I suspect it's discussed above but I'm having some fun poking around the early 60s. Ted Abernathy was the first 30 save season (unofficial) in 1965. He had a good number of starts in the late 50s but was out of the majors in 58, missed nearly all of 59, was brought back as a minor reliever in 60 but, 3 innings aside, didn't see the majors again until 63, strictly in relief.

Jack Aker (never heard of him) set the new record at 32 the next year. He made nearly 500 appearances, all in relief -- was he the first? Another guy who was probably discussed above but deserves mention anyway is Ron Perranoski. Granted, he's arguably a poor man's McDaniel (about half the innings) but he made only 1 start, early in his rookie year, so was clearly targeted for relief the whole time. He missed tying Aker in 69 then lost out by 1 to Wayne Granger's new record of 35. That 1970 season was something of a classic fireman season with 67 g, 52 GF, 111 IP and 34 saves.

And I'm starting to think that K-Rod's 62 may never be broken.

Then there's Marshall of course. Even he couldn't keep it up but I wonder what teams would pay these days for 208 innings of 141 ERA+. Probably not nearly as much as I think because the two extra roster spots aren't worth all that much really but still probably at least $25.

saw something not related to the topics in this thread, but diving down the rabbit hole on relievers I noticed this for the very first time:

Eric Gagne IP

2002: 82.1
2003: 82.1
2004: 82.1


I'm sure this has been mentioned 100 times here, especially when he went to Boston, but I just never saw it before. It's nowhere in my memory.

He pitched in same number of games in 02 and 03 too by the way, 77. But in 04 he only pitched in 70 games. His IP per G actually went UP in the 3rd seasons of that incredible run.

Eric Gagne IP

2002: 82.1
2003: 82.1
2004: 82.1

That brings to mind Vinny Castilla's back-to-back .304/40/113 seasons.

Eric Gagne IP

2002: 82.1
2003: 82.1
2004: 82.1

That brings to mind Vinny Castilla's back-to-back .304/40/113 seasons.

Homeruns:

Ken Boyer

1961 - 24
1962 - 24
1963 - 24
1964 - 24

Fred Lynn (preceded by a 21 and a 22 and followed by a 25)

1984 - 23
1985 - 23
1986 - 23
1987 - 23

Adam Dunn (streak ended with 2 straight 38 homer seasons)

2005 - 40
2006 - 40
2007 - 40
2008 - 40

How about Barry Zito as a hitter:

2008 - .118/.182/.118
2009 - .118/.182/.118
2010 - .118/.135/.118

Khris Davis's batting average:

2015 - .247
2016 - .247
2017 - .247
2018 - .247

And he hit .244 in 2014.

Edit: D'oh! Vortex beat me with Khris Davis...

Lots of guys who were the definition of consistency there.

Vortex beat me with Khris Davis...

That's quite a feat. Was he holding Davis by the legs?

#98 - Yes, but he only hit me in 24.7% of his attempts...

2010 - .118/.135/.118

Talk about a collapse in walk rate. What the heck was going on with him?