User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.3877 seconds
48 querie(s) executed
| ||||||||
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Discussion
| ||||||||
Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Sunday, November 15, 2020Don Mattingly, Dusty Baker deserve second Hall of Fame look: Sherman
RoyalsRetro (AG#1F)
Posted: November 15, 2020 at 12:23 PM | 25 comment(s)
Login to Bookmark
Tags: don mattingly, dusty baker, hall of fame |
Login to submit news.
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsNewsblog: Nationals, Jon Lester agree to one-year deal, per report
(19 - 9:57am, Jan 19) Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Newsblog: Report: Jays, P Tyler Chatwood agree to deal (3 - 9:55am, Jan 19) Last: Paul d mobile Newsblog: NY Mets GM acknowledges sending unsolicited, explicit images while working for Cubs (37 - 9:54am, Jan 19) Last: Never Give an Inge (Dave) Newsblog: Reds wanted Gleyber Torres from Yankees in rumored Luis Castillo deal (20 - 9:42am, Jan 19) Last: snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Newsblog: NBA 2020 Season kick-off thread (862 - 9:34am, Jan 19) Last: sardonic Newsblog: Mickey Mantle baseball card shatters record, sells for $5.2 million (43 - 9:12am, Jan 19) Last: McCoy Newsblog: MLB rule changes: League still discussing universal DH and expanded playoffs for 2021 season (28 - 9:02am, Jan 19) Last: Rally Hall of Merit: Peavy, Nathan, Papelbon, Lincecum, Kazmir and Danks (4 - 8:16am, Jan 19) Last: Dillon Gee Escape Plan Newsblog: Former Oakland Athletics pitcher Dave Stewart bids $115 million on share of Oakland Coliseum (13 - 7:57am, Jan 19) Last: Adam Starblind Newsblog: Yankees sign pitcher Corey Kluber, two-time Cy Young Award winner (36 - 1:56am, Jan 19) Last: dolce Newsblog: San Diego Padres to acquire Pittsburgh Pirates right-hander Joe Musgrove, sources say (10 - 12:24am, Jan 19) Last: CFBF's Results are Certified Newsblog: Empty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird (11805 - 11:37pm, Jan 18) Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Hall of Merit: Most Meritorious Player: 1934 Discussion (11 - 10:15pm, Jan 18) Last: DL from MN Hall of Merit: David Ortiz (40 - 10:04pm, Jan 18) Last: Dr. Chaleeko Newsblog: 2021 BBHOF Tracker Summary and Leaderboard – Baseball Hall of Fame Vote Tracker (542 - 8:30pm, Jan 18) Last: Adam Starblind |
|||||||
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2014 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| Page rendered in 0.3877 seconds |
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
1. Dennis Eclairskey, closer Posted: November 15, 2020 at 02:33 PM (#5988838)Mattingly probably won't ever get in as a player as he shares the Modern Baseball Era Committee ballot with several strong candidates like Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker & Dale Murphy not to mention guys like Dave Parker or Steve Garvey who get their fair share of attention. I think Mattingly or Baker might need to win a ring as a mgr to have a chance
I don't know if Dusty improved his chances much with a visit to the ALCS, though I do think if the Astros had won game 7 it would have put him in pretty good shape. Two pennants with two different teams, on top of the rest of his record, might have separated him from that group he's in with (Piniella, Leyland, Johnson).
On the road to the 3,000+ games you generally need to manage to get into the conversation, those are a blip but they were positive blips. Further of course the article isn't arguing they should go in on managerial achievements alone but on combined achievements. Baker was just a very good player who never had any great seasons nor much AS, MVP love (and we have to wonder about a LF winning a GG at age 32 especially in an era when they frequently gave them out to 3 CF) but he's got the bigger managerial career of these two. Mattingly was the better player ... and I can't say there's much about his managerial career that adds a lot to that legacy but, a bit like his playing career, he's got 3 division titles and 3 2nd-place finishes in 10 seasons which looks nice on paper.
Yes but just a mild improvement. Some members of the press like Sherman here latched onto the two manager's narratives. Mattingly led a covid affected team to an unexpected playoff appearance (the club's first since 2003) & beat the Cubs to advance to the NLDS. At the end of the season, Mattingly is award as NL MGR of the Year.
Baker squeaked the hated Astros into the playoffs now making it so he's managed 5 different teams to the playoffs. The Astros came from a 3-0 deficit to force a Game 7 which helped erase some of Baker's memorable playoff disasters. Ultimately while Houston underperformed in the abbreviated regular season, Baker led them to one win away from a Pennant.
Mattingly has quite a peak but lacked in prime and career as a player.
The O' boys, Lefty and Buck, are the two most obvious "full baseball life" guys.
Baker is on Mattingly's comps list under this approach, so to save time let's just look at Mattingly;'s:
Player dWAR OPS+ PA
Lou Boudreau 23.4 120 7025
Jimmy Collins 16.8 113 7448
Joe Cronin 14.3 119 8840
Gabby Hartnett 13.3 126 7297
Yogi Berra 9.2 125 8359
Joe Torre -0.3 129 8802
Bill Terry -0.3 136 7109
Felipe Alou -3.2 113 7907
Dusty Baker -6.0 116 8022
Don Mattingly -6.2 127 7722
Kirk Gibson -6.4 123 6656
Mike Hargrove -9.0 121 6694
Provided by Stathead.com: View Stathead Tool Used
Generated 11/15/2020.
And ... I dunno. Cronin, Hartnett, Berra, and Terry are in as players even without their managerial feats. Boudreau and Collins won World Championships as managers. Alou, Gibson, and Hargrove did not (though Hargrove came about as close as Baker has), and are not in the HOF. Maybe Hall voters really need that WS ring to ratify a case like this.
Gil Hodges - 2071 GP, 43.9 WAR, 1414 GM, .467 W%, 1 Championship, 1 Pennant
Red Schoendienst - 2216 GP, 44.2 WAR, 1999 GM, .522 W%, 1 Championship, 2 Pennants
Fielder Jones - 1788 GP, 43.2 WAR, 1297 GM, .540 W%, 1 Championship, 1 Pennant
Alvin Dark - 1828 GP, 43.8 WAR, 1950 GM, .510 W%, 1 Championship, 1 Pennant, 3 Postseasons
GP = Games Played; GM = Games Managed
Don Mattingly actually fits pretty well in that group, except for the ring:
Don Mattingly - 1785 GP, 42.4 WAR, 1515 GM, .497 W%, 4 Postseasons
Mattingly had the highest peak as a player, and Hodges and maybe Dark deserve some postseason credit as a players.
Dusty Baker is pretty close to this group as a player, but his managerial record is much different - more than twice as many games managed than Mattingly or Hodges.
...
I tend to fall on the side of Hodges falling short, because two of his three best comparisons are not and likely never will be Hall of Famers, and the third had a very lengthy coaching career to add (plus, he's generally regarded as a mistake). Mattingly, I think, also falls short right now - however, give him another five years and a ring and I think his case is much better.
Dusty Baker is closer - a ring would seal the deal, I think.
Philosophically, I tend to believe that we should elect the person, not the player or the manager specifically. Most players' cases are pretty straightforward, but a borderline player who adds a borderline managerial career should generally be inducted (if Gil Hodges was more like a 50-55 WAR player, I'd vote for him). A totally non-deserving player, but one with a pretty substantial career (like Mattingly or Baker), who add a successful managerial career, probably deserves induction as well, but the managerial bar should be higher.
I guess my general approach would be strong but not HoF-worthy peaks as player and manager should probably be in if we allow combo cases.** Matttingly's managerial peak is pretty weak through. Baker is very good at both but not that impressive at either but 2000 games as a player and 3500 as a manager is a lot of career value and compiling. If Dag wants to do the work, we could possibly even add manager WAA to player WAR.
Anyway, if Bobby Abrue (to pick a guy) added Francona's Red Sox tenure to his resume, I'm fine with calling that a HoF career.
** I'm not sure what a HoF-worthy manager's peak-only case looks like.
I think I disagree. What I'd argue for is "inducted as player" with the BBWAA only ever considering playing careers; "inducted as manager" and "inducted for playing and managerial contributions." (Or "playing and other contributions" if you want a Buck O'Neill in consideration.) I don't think there's much need for it but if they want to induct somebody as a player first then induct them as a manager independently, I suppose they don't have to be mutually exclusive.
My understanding is that you get inducted as a great player or a great manager, not a hybrid. Being a good player and good manager is not enough. Red is a possible counterpoint to this. He's listed as being inducted as a player, but his playing career seems to fall a bit short, as does his managing career which was only about a decade long.
As a hybrid or some sort of lifetime achievement award he makes more sense.
Joe Torre was near the top of the HOVG list as a player alone. He eventually made it in as a manager. His managing career needed no playing career boost. Only 4 other managers won more games than Torre did, he's got the rings, and each of the top 10 in manger wins are in the hall. It will be each of the top 12 if Bruce Bochy is inducted.
Dusty Baker is 15th in career wins as a manager. In the first month of next season he will likely pass 3 men to move into the top 12. (needs 14 wins to do that.) He'll be the only one in the top 12 without a ring, which probably makes Gene Mauch his top manager comp. A single ring would tie him with Durocher and Cox among the top list.
His chances of getting one don't look so great given his age and the direction of the Astros. Depends on what Jim Crane is willing to spend. If he's willing to spend big and keep Springer while bringing in Bauer to replace Verlander then they'll be favorites for the division and a viable ring contender. But if they feel the need to cut costs and stick with young pitching and let 2/3 of their outfield go, then even playing to their 2020 level will be a challenge. And 2021 probably won't let a losing record into the playoffs again.
Mattingly? He's 85th in career wins, has a losing record and no pennants. His managing career at is not going to get him in at this point, or even contribute. Who knows what the future holds. Joe Torre's managing record after 10 years was no better than Don's.
Bauer on the Astros would be VERY entertaining.
This. The early narrative that Baker only accomplished anything because he was riding Bonds' coattails can now hopefully be put to rest.
@BillShaikin
·
8m
First-timers on Hall of Fame ballot: Mark Buehrle, A.J. Burnett, Michael Cuddyer, Dan Haren, LaTroy Hawkins, Tim Hudson, Torii Hunter, Aramis Ramírez, Nick Swisher, Shane Victorino and Barry Zito.
How many of these guys get a vote or stay on the ballot? Buehrle, Hudson, and Hunter maybe stay.
Wow, that table in #10 is about as clean a "find the Hall-of-Fame line" as you'll ever see. Top 7 guys on the list are in the Hall of Fame. Bottom five are out. And within that bottom five, the first three seem like they have plausible candidacies; bottom two not at all.
I don't think the pennants/WS stuff is as amenable to pre-division play (much less pre-WC) comparisons.
The only managers ahead of him on the wins list that aren't in are Gene Mauch (who just managed forever and is under .500) and Bruce Bochy (who likely goes in as soon as whatever).
He's been successful with 4 different franchises - just never got the ring. He's not Connie Mack or even Sparky Anderson (though I'd have to think about that), but he's at least the equal of Whitey Herzog if not Tommy Lasorda with more teams. If we're going to put managers in the Hall of Fame, then I think Dusty Baker belongs in.
I don't really disagree with any of this. I'm not sure my way of looking at it would work with a player who wasn't a peak candidate. But Mattingly also played long enough at an above-average level that you can see what his path to the HOF would have been with average health--he retired at age 34, 850 hits shy of 3000. Not a lock, but realistic. He put together about 60% of a HOF career. Nobody's idea of inner circle, but it's easy to see how it might have gone but for his back.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main