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Tuesday, April 28, 2020

Empty Stadium Sports Will Be Really Weird

So, with the very likely possibility that baseball and basketball — at minimum — will be played to empty stadiums, it begs the question: Will it be as fun?

And before you answer, think about it for a second. No crowd noise. No intensity that builds for the home team or against the away team. Yes, the scoreboard will tell the tale, but the pressure is cranked up when you have a building full of crazy fans screaming their lungs out.

I get that it’s a business and that the money’s at the ML level, but considering crowds, distance from population centers, and the pleasures of relaxed fandom, I’ve been thinking that we might just run some mLs instead.

Mayor Blomberg Posted: April 28, 2020 at 10:17 AM | 6685 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: business, fans, stadiums

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   4801. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:35 PM (#5955351)
Trump's pose in front of the church will probably shore up his base of older evangelicals


When the religious leaders say it was a bad thing, do you really still believe that?

I mean, even Pat Robertson thinks his speech before that moment was wrong...

   4802. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:39 PM (#5955354)
Southern baptists loved it (of course)
   4803. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 02:53 PM (#5955356)

Trump's pose in front of the church will probably shore up his base of older evangelicals
No.
   4804. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:32 PM (#5955361)
1st haircut since ~ Feb. 12. Only every other barber chair was in use, masks were required, and customers had to sign in & wait outside if too many in the shop. Not that crowded, I walked right in (in northern Virginia), so I suspect many are holding off a bit longer.
   4805. baxter Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:32 PM (#5955363)
The Story of the Really Weird Night Richard Nixon Hung Out With Hippies at the Lincoln Memorial

https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/05/17/richard-nixon-kent-state-protests-white-house-lincoln-memorial/
   4806. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:38 PM (#5955364)
The Christians Who Loved Trump’s Stunt: The president’s photo op outside St. John’s Church was emblematic of his appeal to the religious right.
   4807. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:55 PM (#5955369)
The document obtained by The Post shows that Pentagon plans for the Cares Act money include spending hundreds of millions of dollars on projects seemingly unrelated to the pandemic, including submarine missile tubes, space launch facilities, and golf course staffing.


Really, is there anything more central to keeping America safe and overcoming disease than golf?
   4808. PreservedFish Posted: June 04, 2020 at 03:58 PM (#5955371)
The Christians Who Loved Trump’s Stunt: The president’s photo op outside St. John’s Church was emblematic of his appeal to the religious right.


Yes, but it indicates that there are no illusions about his piety. The people quoted see Trump as a bully, but as their bully, which means that rudely dispersing protestors to create the photo op wasn't unchristian or hypocritical, rather, it's exactly what they love about the guy.

It's actually a perspective I hadn't quite considered - my kneejerk reaction as a Trump-hater was to see it as a "mission accomplished" style PR debacle, exposing his phoniness and such. I hadn't considered that the tear gas wasn't just a way to enable the PR stunt, but was actually part of the PR stunt, that its autocratic flavor was intentional and would be celebrated.
   4809. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:04 PM (#5955372)
YEah, but who has any illusions about the piety of white evangelicals anymore, Fish?
   4810. PreservedFish Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:07 PM (#5955373)
Millions of people. Megachurch attendees. Christian rock fans.
   4811. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:09 PM (#5955374)
YEah, but who has any illusions about the piety of white evangelicals anymore, Fish?


Having been raised as & by one (Southern Baptist), & spending most of my life among them, I can safely say they're some of the most reprehensible individuals in this country. Being batshit crazy (them, not me, although ...) doesn't help a whole hell of a lot, either.

   4812. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:10 PM (#5955375)
If you are going to defend Trump all of the time, it would help to actually understand why people are criticizing him.

Assuming some residual humanity on his part, that would make the task more difficult. Absent that humanity, it's not gonna happen.


Since you're going to accuse me of lacking "humanity", I'll accuse of lacking brains. Or reading comprehension.

I've said on numerous occasions that I don't like Trump and wish he wasn't president, especially now. I was willing to tolerate the low comedy of this guy being in the Oval Office when times were good, but now? No thanks. The problem is that there ain't nobody to replace him, as the other party seems determined to drive off the cliff with Joe Biden. It's a drag, man.

That, of course, isn't enough for the extremists that populate this board. If you're not screeching at Drumpf 24/7, then OMG NAZI!!!eleven!! It's really tiresome, guys. But that's how all extremists operate, forever and ever, amen. Not gonna change.

The people quoted see Trump as a bully, but as their bully, which means that rudely dispersing protestors to create the photo op wasn't insincere or hypocritical, rather, it's exactly what they love about the guy.

Right. We've reached the Era of Maximum Cynicism, in which an awful, nasty man who actually speaks to the things you care about is preferable to the other guy, who doesn't. Trump's election wasn't some cosmic accident; it happened because just enough people were willing to make this bargain in 2016. (Whether they're willing to do so again in 2020, I have no idea.)
   4813. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:19 PM (#5955377)
Rmc, if you think joe Biden is “driving off a cliff”, who in the world do you think they should have nominated? Mitt Romney?

Anyway there was an informative article at the Atlantic today about what is holding the stock market up:

In April, consumer spending suffered the worst drop on record in the same month that personal income saw the biggest increase on record. Read that again. It sounds totally implausible, but here’s how it happened. As department stores, restaurants, and shops closed, consumer spending and employment in those places plummeted. But the federal government also passed the CARES Act, which distributed thousand-dollar checks to tens of millions of families and increased jobless benefits by $600 a week. As a result, the typical unemployment-insurance recipient has been earning 34 percent more than he or she did while working. With millions of Americans earning more in unemployment than they were at work, personal income soared in April by 10 percent.
   4814. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:23 PM (#5955378)
My most right-wing facebook friend changed their FB cover photo to a black and white of Trump walking towards the church with the array of military around him. It was actually a tweet by former Wisconsin governor Scott Walker who commented "Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this: "

The orange fraud is spinning a war out of his own creation, and his insane base is eating the #### right up.

Here is the tweet
   4815. Joe Bivens, Elderly Northeastern Jew Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:37 PM (#5955379)
Rmc: Screeching about tear gas? Are you for real?

Looking mighty fascist.


Careful there, fella. Unless I'm reading you wrong, you're in danger of losing your Dancing Monkey status.
   4816. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 04, 2020 at 04:44 PM (#5955381)
To drag this back to the pandemic, obviously, the whole situation makes it much harder to fight the disease and to keep it under control. Massive protests and worsened relationships between people and authorities are bad for fighting COVID.

I am not saying that the protests are not justified, they are IMO, but it sure is not helping the situation.
   4817. Lassus Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:11 PM (#5955384)
He's above it all, like Ray and SBB. You can only aspire to such objective heights.
   4818. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:15 PM (#5955385)
(Reuters) - George Floyd, whose fatal encounter with Minneapolis police stirred a global outcry over racial bias by U.S. law enforcement, tested positive for the coronavirus, his autopsy showed, but the infection was not listed as a factor in his death.
Link

Really ties the thread together, I think.
   4819. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:17 PM (#5955386)

The orange fraud is spinning a war out of his own creation, and his insane base is eating the #### right up.
Obviously there are people who will support Trump no matter what. But those people already support Trump, and are thus meaningless. There's no evidence that this is helping Trump outside that group, and in fact strong evidence that it's not.
   4820. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:19 PM (#5955387)
Rmc, if you think joe Biden is “driving off a cliff”, who in the world do you think they should have nominated? Mitt Romney?

Good question. I'm obviously not a good guy to ask, being a centre-right sort, but there were actually several Dem candidates I could've lived with as president. (The problem, of course, is that a Dem prez would have hard-left advisors and nominate lefty judges.) But Joe Biden? Bernie, at least, would've provided some entertainment value, but Joe Biden...?!

Look, I've got nothing against the man personally (I'm not Tara Reade, after all), but what exactly is inspiring, or even interesting, about the man? His main qualification is that he's not Donald Trump -- a pretty solid qualification, granted, but is it enough to win a national election?

A good friend of mine, a former town supervisor, once told me that "you can't beat somebody with nobody". Trump, despite (or perhaps because) of his myriad faults is definitely a somebody. Is Biden a somebody, too? Well, he seems to do best when he's not around -- hiding in the basement for months on end has done great things for his poll numbers. (Even the betting odds have swung in Joe's favour.) But predictions are folly: the whole damn country's on a knife's edge, and there's no way to know which way it'll fall.
   4821. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:21 PM (#5955388)
The problem is that there ain't nobody to replace him, as the other party seems determined to drive off the cliff with Joe Biden.


A potato could replace him and be a marked improvement.

The guy whose main job is solely TO replace him - a guy I have zero love for - would be an improvement.

There is literally EVERYBODY to replace him, and each of those individual everybodys would be an improvement.
   4822. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:37 PM (#5955389)
4816 - What's not helping the situation is cops killing people. Let's put the responsibility where it lies.
   4823. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:37 PM (#5955390)
Good question. I'm obviously not a good guy to ask, being a centre-right sort, but there were actually several Dem candidates I could've lived with as president. (The problem, of course, is that a Dem prez would have hard-left advisors and nominate lefty judges.) But Joe Biden? Bernie, at least, would've provided some entertainment value, but Joe Biden...?!


Like who? I mean Biden wasn't my first choice, but which Dems could you "live with"?

Note: You pretty much lived with past democrats and will likely live through future ones, so yeah.
   4824. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:40 PM (#5955391)
4816 - What's not helping the situation is cops killing people. Let's put the responsibility where it lies.


Step 1 - Cops must stop murdering people
Step 2 - Stop harassing non-violent protestors.
Step 3 - Stop attacking the press.

All of those things would deescalate the situation. But it feels like de-escalation is not what is desired. Which is too bad, because again, all this escalation makes it much harder to fight the pandemic that is killing many thousands of people and destroying the economy.
   4825. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:41 PM (#5955392)
The problem is that there ain't nobody to replace him,


shorter rmc: It's not that I wanted to become a Nazi but the other side's tax policy didn't add up.
   4826. . Posted: June 04, 2020 at 05:56 PM (#5955393)
The Floyd protests are eminently justified. I support them completely, though not the anarchist side of them of course. The racial justice part, entirely.

The lockdown protests were also justified.

The completely different modern liberal reactions to them is a big reason we wound up getting Donald Trump. Somewhere along the way, leftists/modern liberals lost the ability to apply principles to situations and see the similarities in them, and instead started putting their fingers on the scales and denying the other side the ability to exercise their rights, too. Every non-Twitter-marinating-modern-liberal sees this clearly. When they try to explain this to Twitter-marinating- modern-liberals, TMMLs yell something crazier back.

You shut down America's workplaces and put millions of people out of work because of an alleged public health emergency and called people protesting it "Nazis" and "selfish" and then when it came time for the Floyd protests, all that public health emergency, selfish stuff disappeared in the blink of an eye and everybody crowding together was valorized, including the people burning and breaking and stealing ####. Not really the best way to go into November. Good luck with that, and thanks.



   4827. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 06:03 PM (#5955394)
Rocco Baldelli
@roccodbaldelli

George Floyd should be breathing right now. We have a lot of progress to make. A lot. Remember his name. Remember what happened.

12:45 AM · May 27, 2020·Twitter for iPhone


Good for him, though the responses are what one might expect
   4828. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:08 PM (#5955402)
Ignore is your friend, folks.
   4829. Dr. Vaux Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:18 PM (#5955403)
I don't understand why crowding together in huge numbers during a pandemic is justified. It will, not might, lead to at least hundreds of deaths (in a best-case scenario), and--as if it ought to matter--those deaths will probably be mostly family members of those in the crowd. On top of that, it doesn't take much imagination to see how the widespread cheering on of it, nevertheless, adds fuel to the fire of those who have tried to portray the pandemic as a hoax or political maneuver. I apologize in advance for triggering stiggles.

If you read this thread for information, ignoring posters makes it contain a lot less information. I'm grateful to have a place where I can see what educated people from across the political spectrum, whose reasoning I've come to respect over many years, are thinking and feeling.
   4830. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:22 PM (#5955404)
Since you're going to accuse me of lacking "humanity", I'll accuse of lacking brains.


*chef's kiss*
   4831. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:27 PM (#5955405)
That, of course, isn't enough for the extremists that populate this board.


Although you leaving your house is bad for society, you can get out on the internet more, and you should, if you see this site as "extremist."
   4832. Jay Z Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:32 PM (#5955406)
I don't think it matters much how Biden runs. You aren't going to win an excitement contest with Trump, there's no point in trying. Trump creates plenty of excitement.

I actually think Trump has some political skills, should probably do better than he does even being a know nothing. He plays to his base way too much, just inflames the opposition to the point of actively working against him. I think the base plays and constant antagonism work against him, he just happens to be president still because he won in 2016. But I think he could have won in 2016, won by more than he did given the fundamentals of the election.

Elections like these turn on the country rejecting the incumbent. No, Biden is not the young fresh face like Kennedy, Clinton, Obama. But FDR really wasn't one either.
   4833. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:37 PM (#5955407)
The completely different modern liberal reactions to them is a big reason we wound up getting Donald Trump.


Nah. This is just one of the ways that guys like you and RMc (anti-PC middle-aged white guys with intellectual pretensions) try to make yourselves feel superior to others. Bill James is old, not middle-aged, but he is the same kind of guy you are politically and pulled this same move on his site. Trump is in The White House mostly because Republicans wanted him there or, at least, wanted to control the govt(as both parties do) with ANY Republican; because a lot of people have a deep hatred for Hillary Clinton, and because Trump won narrow victories in four key swing states. There's more to it, but those were the keys.

That said, concern about the pandemic worsening in the wake of the protests is a reasonable thing to bring up.
   4834. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 07:57 PM (#5955410)
I actually think Trump has some political skills, should probably do better than he does even being a know nothing.


OK, I'm gonna quibble this because the way you use the adjective political trivializes politics, as, indeed, Trump does.

We've entered a world in which politics has been reduced to entertainment and driven by sensationalism, but the management of the affairs of the polis,rational deliberative discussion of the good, the just, and how to achieve them is serious ####. In that, the man has no skill whatsoever.
   4835. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:02 PM (#5955411)
I don't understand why crowding together in huge numbers during a pandemic is justified.


We haven't emptied the prisons. We haven't emptied the army bases and the naval craft. We may still be able to understand that some things are vitally important to the community. Whether justice and the lives of black people are among them, maybe we disagree. But if the cops aren't taking time off from killing folk, people who want to preserve themselves and their families need to speak out, and zoom just. doesn't. get it.

I realize, too, that some folk here might consider haircuts far more important than black lives. In that case rertun to DMN's observation about the foolisnhess if inflating inconvenience into constitutional crisis.
   4836. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:03 PM (#5955412)
4821, 4825: I know you're not entirely serious with these comments, but this kind of crap accomplishes exactly nothing. Forget "talking past each other"; this barely qualifies as talking.

4830: I've got something else you can kiss, pal.

Elections like these turn on the country rejecting the incumbent.

Maybe. But you could just as easily argue that in times like these (when is it ever NOT "times like these"?), people fear change. (Hey, if this is 1968 again, does that mean the Tigers win the pennant?) Presidents tend to get re-elected; hell, even Bill and W (like Trump, born in 1946) got re-elected, and Gerald Ford nearly did. (Well, technically, ol' Jer never got elected in the first place, but you know what I mean.)

RMc (anti-PC middle-aged white guys with intellectual pretensions)

I beg your pardon. I am not an intellectual; hell, I'm not even a phony intellectual. (A phony intellectual-wannabe, maybe.)
   4837. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:07 PM (#5955413)
I realize, too, that some folk here might consider haircuts far more important than black lives.

There's literally nobody who thinks this outside your fevered imagination. (And, hey, what about black people who want haircuts? Hater!)
   4838. tshipman Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:07 PM (#5955414)
I beg your pardon. I am not an intellectual; hell, I'm not even a phony intellectual. (A phony intellectual-wannabe, maybe.)


Frankly, I'm surprised you can spell intellectual, given your embarrassing failure in grammar when trying to insult someone else earlier.
   4839. Booey Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:12 PM (#5955415)
While I'm 100% on board with the BLM movement and I fully support all the (peaceful) protests and think the kind of reform they're advocating for is long, long overdue, it does worry me quite a bit how blatantly every major city (and lots of smaller towns) in America were willing to completely abandon all social distancing guidelines for days or maybe even weeks at a time like this.

Viruses don't care if it's a worthy cause.
   4840. Lassus Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:13 PM (#5955416)
It started before Floyd, easily.
   4841. Srul Itza Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:16 PM (#5955417)
If you read this thread for information, ignoring posters makes it contain a lot less information.


trolling =/= information

Or to put it another way (referring to the ignored trolls and not you...)
   4842. Laser Man Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:22 PM (#5955418)
I think a lot of people feel that outdoor activities are relatively low risk for coronavirus, so they were willing to take that risk to protest. I guess we'll have some data during the next week or two if they were correct in that assumption.
   4843. Dr. Vaux Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:24 PM (#5955419)
I think it's pretty apparent based on everything we know that staying isolated will save a hell of a lot more black lives than standing two inches away from each other. To suggest otherwise plays right into the hands of the plandemic crowd. I read today on another baseball message board something to the effect of "well, this proves the pandemic is fake." Those kinds of ideas aren't being expressed by just one poster. Make no mistake, the spike in infections that will result from the demonstrations is ultimately the fault of the murderous badge-wearing publicly funded gangsters, but, well, multiple bad things can happen at the same time, and something that has bad consequences isn't one hundred percent good.
   4844. PreservedFish Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:36 PM (#5955420)
on another baseball message board


Traitor!
   4845. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:47 PM (#5955422)
Trump's pose in front of the church will probably shore up his base of older evangelicals

Southern baptists loved it (of course)

Funny, I was just reading about that denomination today in The Daily Schadenfreude.....

Southern Baptists See Biggest Drop in 100 Years

The loss of 288,000 church members last year brings total SBC membership to 14.5 million, down from its peak of 16.3 million in 2003. Average worship attendance remained relatively stable at 5.2 million.

Total baptisms, a landmark metric for the denomination, fell by 4 percent to 235,748—the lowest number since World War II. Giving was down slightly to $11.6 billion, after two years of increases. SBC churches spent $1.1 billion on missions.

“These numbers are not able to tell the story of all the evangelistic efforts that many individuals and churches have put in this past year. They do indicate, however, that the efforts of the same number of people in a congregation on average are seeing fewer people come to Christ and being baptized,” said Scott McConnell, executive director of LifeWay Research. ...
   4846. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:51 PM (#5955423)
Bit of a surprise today at Worldometers. The U.S. fell to third in daily deaths. Mexico blew up the last three days: +237, +470, +1,092. And Brazil is starting to really open up its lead on the U.S. - their gap on the U.S. has gone +98, +186, +461 the last three days. Worldwide, this thing isn’t slowing down at all.
   4847. PreservedFish Posted: June 04, 2020 at 08:54 PM (#5955424)
That was a headline in the Times today or yesterday. Brazil, South Africa, Egypt, Mexico, Bangladesh - it's beginning to crush them.
   4848. Howie Menckel Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:15 PM (#5955426)
number of suspected COVID-19-related deaths in NYC on Wednesday: zero.

first time that has happened in months.
   4849. Greg K Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:17 PM (#5955428)
Brazil seems like its in for some turmoil. Aside from Bolsonaro being at the forefront among world leaders in playing down the virus, his star Justice Minister, Sergio Moro (the great crusader against corruption), has resigned, accusing Bolsonaro of obstructing investigations into his family's affairs.

Seems like Brazil could be on the path to another impeachment. Not the best time for chaos at the top of the political system.
   4850. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:20 PM (#5955429)
Some states abandoned their standards others (mine, FL, GA) don't really give a ####; look at the water parks and beaches.

If Houston or New Orleans were hit by anotehr hurricane, would the shelters not open, or open at only 25%.

No, this protest isn't that, but it's a lot more serious than vaycay. It's quite simply a first amendment issue. I don't believe any of the people Trump egged on were arrested in Michigan and elsewhere for protesting. Did I miss something?

I think it's pretty apparent based on everything we know that staying isolated will save a hell of a lot more black lives than standing two inches away from each other. To suggest otherwise plays right into the hands of the plandemic crowd. I read today on another baseball message board something to the effect of "well, this proves the pandemic is fake.


When you're sacrificing politics to the paranoid extremist fringe you've lost, unless it's what you wanted, and I hope you don't want that. This Howie's don't upset them and maybe they'll let us live argument. Black folk have history with that and don't seem so attracted to it.

Best case scenario, if there isn't a wave out of the protests, the plandemic crowd will fall in line behind their black revolutionary leaders. Win-win!!!
   4851. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:21 PM (#5955431)
number of suspected COVID-19-related deaths in NYC on Wednesday: zero.


mazel tov! some authentically good news
   4852. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:25 PM (#5955432)
Mexico blew up the last three days: +237, +470, +1,092.


Until at least the next report, sometime in the wee hours, I believe, I'm going to assume that's a correction not a new trend; nothing in past weeks to indicate that momentum.
   4853. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:38 PM (#5955435)
In case this was not posted already, both studies that relied on the Surgisphere data have been retracted. Link
   4854. baxter Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:45 PM (#5955436)
4854 The Lancet & The New England Journal of Medicine are two of the most respected publications in the field. Who can one rely on? It's good they retracted the studies.
   4855. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:57 PM (#5955437)
It's quite simply a first amendment issue. I don't believe any of the people Trump egged on were arrested in Michigan and elsewhere for protesting. Did I miss something?
As most know, the1st Amendment protects peaceful protest - rioting, looting, and vandalism aren’t protected. Neither is violation of the curfews imposed, not by Trump, but all those Democratic Mayors & Governors.
   4856. Dr. Vaux Posted: June 04, 2020 at 09:58 PM (#5955438)
Well, a lot of history can be explained by people deciding they're okay with their loved ones dying because someone else died, or 1000 people dying because a particular person did. I'm not. That's my ideology, which I'm not going to pretend to be above.
   4857. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:12 PM (#5955439)
Some states abandoned their standards others (mine, FL, GA) don't really give a #### . , .
Coronavirus deaths per 1M population:
1. NY 1,556.6
2. NJ 1,351.7
3. CT 1,123.9
4. MA 1,036.2
. . .
16. GA 202.2
. . .
28. FL 121.5
. . .
41. TX 62.1
The data indicates that Texas, Florida & Georgia are not the problem, no matter how much some wish they were.
   4858. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:28 PM (#5955440)
In case this was not posted already, both studies that relied on the Surgisphere data have been retracted.
Apparently, there is a third “study” that is also being questioned:
Surgisphere had also provided information behind a study on ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug, as a potential coronavirus treatment. That analysis, which was published in the middle of May as a preprint, has also raised eyebrows among the scientific community and prompted nations to alter policy — in this case, to stock up on ivermectin.

Carlos Chaccour, a medical researcher at the Barcelona Institute for Global Health, said the study likely violated European data privacy standards and had implausible results. "We emailed the authors more than three weeks ago concerned with some of these issues and our doubts were not dispelled by Dr. Desai," he said last week, referring to Surgisphere's CEO.
How can all this just be carelessness or inadvertent error? Are they trying to manipulate the drug manufacturers’ stock prices? You want to be careful about inhibiting legitimate scientific research, but this seems to warrant some serious investigation.

   4859. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 04, 2020 at 10:55 PM (#5955442)
Mexico blew up the last three days: +237, +470, +1,092.


Until at least the next report, sometime in the wee hours, I believe, I'm going to assume that's a correction not a new trend; nothing in past weeks to indicate that momentum.


+816

Mexico's cases are definitely growing recently but, yeah, not really THAT much.

Sticking with Thursdays just to avoid any weekend issues or such, June 4th they reported 3,912 cases. Go back 7 days and it's 3,463 (May 28), 2,248 (May 21 - but May 20 and 22 were 2,713 and 2,973). Then 1,862 on May 14, 1,609 on May 7, 1,047 on April 30, etc. That's rapid growth but that's certainly not "deaths quadruple in two days" rapid. I don't know what's going on there. I checked the "source" for the +1,092 and it was a tweet from a government health official which basically looked exactly like the same guy's tweet the day before, just with different numbers. The tweet is for cumulative numbers, so he didn't actually tweet the "+1,092"; he just tweeted numbers that were 1,092 higher than the numbers he'd tweeted the day before. But no obvious change in methodology (he reported separate numbers for "confirmed" and "probable" but had done the same thing the day before), no reference to some unusual one-time (or new) source of deaths. No idea.
   4860. Kiko Sakata Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:02 PM (#5955443)
Follow-up to #4859. Here's the government of Mexico's COVID-19 page. It's in Spanish, of course, but it's pretty straightforward. The number of "Defunciones" is 12,545, which exactly matches Worldometers. Their "Grafica de Defunciones" (click on "Defunciones" on the page) doesn't have the huge spike of the last three days, but I would guess Mexico is graphing deaths by the day they actually happened while Worldometers I believe graphs based on the day they're reported. So I guess Mexico's doing some catch-up in terms of recording deaths.
   4861. Sleepy was just “inspecting the bunker”, y’all Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:08 PM (#5955444)
The data indicates that Texas, Florida & Georgia are not the problem, no matter how much some wish they were.
I hope so. I have loved ones there (GA).

Dallas reported a new daily record in number of new cases today, but maybe that’s just a statistical anomaly.
   4862. Ron J Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:22 PM (#5955445)
#4842 The problem is that the risk isn't merely personal. You get it and become an infection vector.

But my answer to Vaux's concerns would be to follow the advice of Dr. Bonnie (and others). Use signs while protesting rather than yelling. And get tested after.

As long as people do this (and yeah, people. So I have my concerns) and behave responsibly if they do test positive then I see the good outweighing the bad.
   4863. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:43 PM (#5955446)
But my answer to Vaux's concerns would be to follow the advice of Dr. Bonnie (and others). Use signs while protesting rather than yelling. And get tested after. As long as people do this (and yeah, people. So I have my concerns) and behave responsibly if they do test positive then I see the good outweighing the bad.
So if protestors were to do what few, or none, of them have been doing, no problem? Hmm.
   4864. Snowboy Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:46 PM (#5955447)
Saw video of a huge rally in Hong Kong last night marking anniversary of Tiananmen Square affair.
100% mask compliance.
These US & Canadian marches? Not so much.
   4865. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:54 PM (#5955450)
Well, a lot of history can be explained by people deciding they're okay with their loved ones dying because someone else died, or 1000 people dying because a particular person did. I'm not. That's my ideology, which I'm not going to pretend to be above.


a particular person did. Which particular person. My guess is that if there were no pattern there'd be no protest. The problem is instead the thousands that have died, and the color of the expendables. Or are you not willing to think yourself in the protsters' place. I mean, look, I understand your position, and I have chosen to teach online so as not to expose myself and my students to that risk. But these decisions are within the normal course of life.

Or maybe the point is that black people dying from encounters with the police and vigilantes -- not just black people but black folk at a disproportionate rate -- is the normal course of life? There's a statistical argument to be made for it.

Ron J, thanks for #4862
   4866. AuntBea odeurs de parfum de distance sociale Posted: June 04, 2020 at 11:56 PM (#5955451)
It's quite possible that Florida will have more deaths than NY next week. NY has been trending down very steadily and Florida has been flat, with cases rising recently. Maybe not 50/50, but maybe not that much less. Based on new cases and rate testing positive, it's already pretty likely Florida has more current cases than NY.

Florida probably won't match the other top 3 in deaths per million next week.
   4867. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:28 AM (#5955453)
Kane Pitman @KanePitman
Day after day I scroll down my twitter feed and see video after video of police attacking unarmed protestors. Until those people are made accountable for their actions there is zero reason you should believe change will occur. Also, imagine what is not on film.
Michael Dugat @mdug
Everything is so sickening

John Karalis @RedsArmy_John
I just can't believe the utter lack of humanity involved in knocking an elderly man to the ground, watching him bleed out of his ear, and then walking away. All those cops and no one cared to stop and help. It's just so disgusting

Salman Ali @SalmanAliNBA
I'd advice against watching the Buffalo City video.
Eli Savoie @Eli560
Thanks to the listeners who steered me to watch “13th” on Netflix today. Very enlightening documentary on the issues going on
   4868. Tin Angel Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:29 AM (#5955454)
This country is entirely broken. Just unbelievable.

Edit: Video references Stiggles' third and fourth quote above. Sickening.
   4869. Mayor Blomberg Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:47 AM (#5955455)
4868 - Sort of thing I could imagine in a prison yard. ####### subhuman bastard.

Dude's 75, in "serious but stable" condition.
   4870. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:50 AM (#5955456)
Apologies for the OTP post, but yeah, it’s hard to watch things like this and not think the entire model of policing is broken:

Austin, TX

I should add that I am usually pretty sympathetic to law enforcement (my cousin is a cop in MA, one of my best friends is a federal prosecutor and is actually the one who shared the above video with me). But it almost seems as if a lot of cops are determined to prove all of the worst stereotypes accurate.

   4871. never forget: the pee tape is 57i66135 Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:54 AM (#5955457)
4868 - Sort of thing I could imagine in a prison yard. ####### subhuman bastard.
i'm not sure i look forward to the remix.
This country is entirely broken. Just unbelievable.

Edit: Video references Stiggles' third and fourth quote above. Sickening.
that thud...
   4872. BrianBrianson Posted: June 05, 2020 at 01:17 AM (#5955459)
Or maybe the point is that black people dying from encounters with the police and vigilantes -- not just black people but black folk at a disproportionate rate -- is the normal course of life? There's a statistical argument to be made for it.


Cops in the US were killing black people at ~8x the rate they were killing white people in 1970, and it's ~3x today, so it's not fixed, not some immutable law of nature. 538 has also suggested that it's decreasing over the last ~15 years for which there's better data. They attribute it at least somewhat to big cities adopt some force related policies so urban police are killing fewer people and suburban and rural police are killing more, but I do wonder a bit if they're over-interpreting small trends. The only got policy changes producing a ~30% decrease in killings, which might not really be what the demonstrations are aiming for, of course.

   4873. Lassus Posted: June 05, 2020 at 06:08 AM (#5955461)
So if protestors were to do what few, or none, of them have been doing, no problem? Hmm.

You are a truly shitty human being.
   4874. Ron J Posted: June 05, 2020 at 07:03 AM (#5955463)
#4873 Lassus remember you validate their existence by responding to them that way. Just imagine them with their pants around their ankles when they get to your response.
   4875. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 05, 2020 at 07:51 AM (#5955465)
#4873 Lassus remember you validate their existence by responding to them that way. Just imagine them with their pants around their ankles when they get to your response.


They don't have anything else. They are tied to a failed set of policies and people who deny basic facts and science, trolling and divisiveness are all that they have left. Let them have their pathetic trolling to consol them. In the time of pandemic and upheaval, we all need something.

Everyone stay safe. Protest if you feel you must. Troll if you have nothing better to do with your life.
   4876. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 05, 2020 at 07:53 AM (#5955466)
. Trump's election wasn't some cosmic accident; it happened because just enough people were willing to make this bargain in 2016


Well to be sure, in a sense it was an accident. An accidental by product of the electoral college non sense. In terms of raw vote totals, he lost by apparently 3M as I recall it.
   4877. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 05, 2020 at 07:59 AM (#5955467)

A good friend of mine, a former town supervisor, once told me that "you can't beat somebody with nobody"


With all due respect on what basis for that statement? Who was Jimmy Carter before 1976? He was probably one of the least known candidates in a large field of fairly decent candidates. Or Bill Clinton? He came out of nowhere? Both of those guys ended up defeating sitting presidents.

How about O'Bama vs Dole? Kennedy vs Nixon? which of those candidates was more well known?

I dunno that's really silly statement if your friend is passing that off as some sort of political tenent.

Wilson vs Teddy Roosevent. How about that one?

Lincoln vs Douglas?
   4878. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 05, 2020 at 08:02 AM (#5955468)

But my answer to Vaux's concerns would be to follow the advice of Dr. Bonnie (and others). Use signs while protesting rather than yelling.


And don't exhale.
   4879. Sunday silence: Play Guess How long season lasts Posted: June 05, 2020 at 08:25 AM (#5955469)
Benjamin Harrison vs Grover Cleveland, 1888. That's a good one.
   4880. Ron J Posted: June 05, 2020 at 08:32 AM (#5955470)
#4878. Masks. And testing since masks are not totally effective.
   4881. McCoy Posted: June 05, 2020 at 08:44 AM (#5955471)
Lincoln lost. Obama vs Dole?
   4882. Tony S Posted: June 05, 2020 at 08:58 AM (#5955472)

I should add that I am usually pretty sympathetic to law enforcement (my cousin is a cop in MA, one of my best friends is a federal prosecutor and is actually the one who shared the above video with me). But it almost seems as if a lot of cops are determined to prove all of the worst stereotypes accurate.


I have my own Texas cop story. I was driving through rural North Texas about a year ago, on my way to Lubbock. I enjoy taking back roads and exploring around. I got to a small-town county seat, and as soon as I hit the central business district this cop pulled out of a local side street and just GLUED itself to my bumper. He didn't turn on his lights or anything; he just tightly tailgated me. I gave him NO reason to pull me over -- I stayed well within the posted speed limit and knocked my phone under the seat so I wouldn't be tempted to so much as glance at it. The backdrop became rural again but the cop didn't go away. I have (way) out-of-state plates and a reasonably high-end car, so I'm thinking, crap, I'm a civil-asset-forfeiture target, or something. After the five longest miles of my life I got to the county line and the cop finally turned around and left me alone. Thank goodness Texas has small counties.

I mention this because there's this county community organization I'm part of, and we meet at each other's homes, scattered around the county. One of our members lives in Emmitsburg, which is in the northern edge of the county, next to the PA border. Very rural, very white. The two African-Americans on our committee did come to the meeting at her house one time, but requested that she be taken off the hosting rotation because they weren't comfortable driving through the northern county, after dark. These are affluent, educated professionals. I mentioned my Texas encounter to them and they just shook their heads and said, "this kind of thing happens to us almost monthly. And the cop doesn't always go away."
   4883. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:00 AM (#5955473)
A good friend of mine, a former town supervisor, once told me that "you can't beat somebody with nobody"

With all due respect on what basis for that statement? Who was Jimmy Carter before 1976? He was probably one of the least known candidates in a large field of fairly decent candidates. Or Bill Clinton? He came out of nowhere? Both of those guys ended up defeating sitting presidents.

How about O'Bama vs Dole? Kennedy vs Nixon? which of those candidates was more well known?
In the context of the rest of RMc's comments, I'd take "nobody" not to mean someone who's not well known but rather someone who doesn't have any obvious qualities. Or to be more pejorative, an empty suit. In this context Obama was more of a somebody than Dole and Kennedy certainly seemed like more of a somebody than Nixon.

The obvious rejoinder is Carter, who did have qualities but not especially obvious ones. The rejoinder to the rejoinder is that Carter won because of Watergate and because Ford was an unelected President who had been badly damaged by Reagan in the primaries. So perhaps the main lesson is that a "nobody" can win a weird election, which would certainly seem to describe 2020. (The other part of the rejoinder to the rejoinder is that Ford himself was a "nobody", and that even in a fight between nobodies somebody has to win.)

Biden can win, but of course I'd be a lot happier if the Dems had dug up a Bill Clinton with the personal life of Albert Schweitzer.
   4884. Tony S Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:01 AM (#5955474)
#4878. Masks. And testing since masks are not totally effective.


Being outdoors is low-risk. And wearing a mask lessens that risk even more.

But even being outdoors, with a mask, in the middle of a dense mass of people for an hour or two is WAY more risk than I'm willing to assume. As justified as the sentiment is behind these protests, I do not think they're a good idea.
   4885. Ben Broussard Ramjet Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:19 AM (#5955476)
Interesting comparison here among European nations as to infection rates: Sky News study

The UK and Sweden are argued to be outliers as the infection rate is declining slower there - and in Sweden's case, barely declining at all.

There's also an interesting 'stringency measure' which claims to track the extent of lockdowns across different countries over time. It corresponds to a picture in which the UK applied suppression methods relatively late, and Sweden to a significantly lower extent. No US numbers for comparison, though.
   4886. SoSH U at work Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:28 AM (#5955477)
In this context Obama was more of a somebody than Dole


To quote McCoy, Obama vs. Dole? Are you guys confusing Dole and McCain?
   4887. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:39 AM (#5955480)
To quote McCoy, Obama vs. Dole? Are you guys confusing Dole and McCain?
Maybe I'm confusing America's first black president with the person who Toni Morrison described as America's first black president!
   4888. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:51 AM (#5955482)
There's a pretty famous cliche about nominations going back 40 years - Republicans fall in line, Democrats fall in love.

It's not perfect - especially on the D side, which has tended to be more wildcardy...

Yes, Reagan ran against a "sitting President" in 1976, but Ford has a pretty massive asterisk. He wins the nomination in 1980. His runnerup is the VP, and it's his turn in 1988... Dole was the runnerup in 1988... it was his "turn" in 1996. W is an outlier, but McCain was the runnerup and it was his "turn" in 2008... Romney runnerup in 2008, his "turn" in 2012.

On the other hand, Dems fell in love with Carter in 76... imperfect - Mondale beats back Hart for his "turn" in 1984. Had it not been... well... let's just 88 got jumbled. Dems fell in love with Clinton 92.... Gore had his "turn" in 2000... Kerry beats back insurgent Dean... well, Dean implodes once the voting starts... Dems fell in love with Obama in 2008... Clinton has her "turn" in 2016... and now it seems like Biden gets his "turn" in 2020.

Too few data points and too many variables to say what works better as a rule, I think.

   4889. PreservedFish Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:53 AM (#5955483)
A common interpretation of the very last election would seem to violate the dictum. Hillary Clinton is certainly a 'somebody,' and many said that the Dems would have cruised to victory had they nominated a nobody.
   4890. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: June 05, 2020 at 09:59 AM (#5955486)
I think Biden is being underrated as a politician, especially for these times. Biden is not an ideologue and he is a bit boring. His best political quality is his empathy, he is very effective at communicating his empathy. He has many flaws but caring about people is an obvious strength he has.

Faced with this year, Australian wildfires, impeachment, pandemic, police murdering people, massive protests, and rioting you know what sounds good right now? A sympathetic and slightly boring non-ideologue who feels our pain and just wants to get things back to normal. In contrast to the year we are having that sounds like freaking heaven.

Regarding protests, much like the second amendment protects gun ownership, the first protects assembly. Neither is an unlimited right, and it might be nice to not feel the need to protest and in light of the pandemic I want people to be as safe and cautious as they can be, still, it is a very important right.
   4891. Ron J Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:24 AM (#5955490)
#4889 I see last time around as being fascinating. Given the fundamentals (and yeah, "fundamentals" are noisy. I don't want to oversell here) last time I can't see anybody in the Democratic field beating Kasich. Or Rubio or ... generic conservative.

Instead the Republican were choosing between two people all but certain to under-perform the fundamentals.

While the Democrats were busy making the same type of choice.

In the end, it ended with the Trump getting slightly less support overall than would have been expected for Generic R versus Generic D. But distributing it very well.

   4892. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:36 AM (#5955493)
I wish we could run someone who energized the party like Obama did, but all that really matters from an electoral standpoint is a handful of states that are in play and can swing the election. Hillary was certainly a “somebody” but that carried a lot of negatives in certain states that mattered. I don’t think Biden has the same problem but we’ll see. I take some comfort from the fact that he trounced Bernie in the Michigan primary, while Hillary lost that state (in both the primary and general) in 2016. Given everything happening in the country it’s hard to say what the key issues will be in November.

It’s interesting to think about what would have happened if George Floyd had been killed a few months earlier, when we still had a contested primary with several black candidates.
   4893. Starring Bradley Scotchman as RMc Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:51 AM (#5955502)
Frankly, I'm surprised you can spell intellectual, given your embarrassing failure in grammar

I direct you to my new book, "How To Rite English Good".

In the context of the rest of RMc's comments, I'd take "nobody" not to mean someone who's not well known but rather someone who doesn't have any obvious qualities. Or to be more pejorative, an empty suit.

For a lot of people (including me), an empty suit is looking pretty good right now. Trump is on TV at the moment, and the Fox News caption reads: "PRESIDENT TRUMP: WE MADE EVERY DECISION CORRECTLY". Uh-huh.

So perhaps the main lesson is that a "nobody" can win a weird election, which would certainly seem to describe 2020.

When people really start paying attention to the election, in the fall, Trump will start beating Biden like the proverbial step-child (Hellooooo, Tara!). But there are just too many X factors: if we get a nasty second wave of the virus, or if the military starts opening up on protesters, or we get into a hot war somewhere, Trump is almost certainly toast (and probably impeached, again). But if things continue to get better...well, presidents tend to get re-elected. Sigh.

   4894. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: June 05, 2020 at 10:59 AM (#5955504)
Maybe I'm just getting centrist in my old age...

But I just want a POTUS that limits himself (or herself) to the occasional silly gaffe that becomes an hour long story. I just want a POTUS who amounts to a "take a penny, leave a penny" cup.... something I ordinarily do not have to care about and pay no mind to.

I just want back to normal. Get back to normal and perhaps my liberalism will be reborn... or, perhaps I'm on a path to being a 40something whose main federal government concern is "OK, now tell me the EXACT details in this tax bill again..."

But just get back to normal for now. That's it. It's time to cancel the reality TV farce and replace it with WHATEVER. Re-runs of Mama's Family... I don't care.
   4895. Der-K's emotional investment is way up Posted: June 05, 2020 at 11:11 AM (#5955508)
I've always been left of center, though decidedly moderate at some points in my life and decidedly not at others (like now) and one thing that has been true throughout it all is that I dislike Joe Biden.
That said, he doesn't need to excite the party - as already noted, 45 offers no shortage of excitement - he needs to support efforts to get people to polls and not do things that will make them not want to go.
(Also, though I'm not sold on his virtues as a politician, his ability to demonstrate empathy is real and advantageous right now.)

---

My partner is an epidemiologist and politically aware (and decidely empathetic to BLM, etc...) and I asked her about how to balance protesting with staying safe in the time of COVID. I don't have great bullet points to condense this down to ... I mean, it's a decidedly high risk activity but police brutality is also a huge public health problem (with, and this is me speaking, insanely high morbidity). Her comments were largely around how you stay safe in a protest more generally and how that overlaps with COVID guidelines (wearing a mask, goggles, and so on), as well as obvious follow up protocols (like self quarantine afterward if possible).
   4896. Greg Pope Posted: June 05, 2020 at 11:28 AM (#5955509)
But I just want a POTUS that limits himself (or herself) to the occasional silly gaffe that becomes an hour long story. I just want a POTUS who amounts to a "take a penny, leave a penny" cup.... something I ordinarily do not have to care about and pay no mind to.

Same here. I only want to think about the president once a month. Maybe every other week. I want to turn on the news and most nights not have anything about the president come on. Every once in a while there can be a story about meeting leaders at Camp David or a speech or something.

Right now (well, before the riots and before COVID-19) the president is doing something stupid every single day. I can't get away from it. I don't want to have to think about politics every day.
   4897. PreservedFish Posted: June 05, 2020 at 11:53 AM (#5955512)
#4894 and #4896 - surprised at these comments, which seem a bit naive. I mean, there's no doubt that Trump is uniquely buffoonish, but in today's media and social media environment even the most staid and conventional and passive president would likely generate nearly daily controversy. I think the best we could hope for would be a POTUS that was only outrageous to like 20% of the country instead of 55% of the country.
   4898. Zonk took his own SATs Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:02 PM (#5955515)
#4894 and #4896 - surprised at these comments, which seem a bit naive. I mean, there's no doubt that Trump is uniquely buffoonish, but in today's media and social media environment even the most staid and conventional and passive president would likely generate nearly daily controversy. I think the best we could hope for would be a POTUS that was only outrageous to like 20% of the country instead of 55% of the country.


But that's the point.

What you describe - 20% of the country being outraged by the person in office - isn't really unique. I mean, Father Coughlin existed in the 1930s. Hearst, etc before that.

I reject the idea that "today is different" when it comes to the public. The tools and platforms of media and communication are different and more dynamic - no doubt - but it's never (ever, ever) been unique for there to be a considerable number of Americans who are insistent that this guy now in office is a mortal threat to the nation.

Setting aside whether we've actually reached the point whether we have a guy who truly, finally is (I think so, but it's not my point) - what is unique is that the guy in office is wholly and completely and solely catering to those who do (ironically, both ends of it! It's just that he's telling one set of 20% that he's the only man who can crush and eliminate the other 20%).

That's unique.

Even Nixon wasn't actually that in '68 - remember, there was George Wallace around to be on the "NO! REALLY! END OF AMERICA!"

   4899. Stevey Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:04 PM (#5955516)
But I just want a POTUS that limits himself (or herself) to the occasional silly gaffe that becomes an hour long story. I just want a POTUS who amounts to a "take a penny, leave a penny" cup.... something I ordinarily do not have to care about and pay no mind to.


But this will never be the case as we've transition to not just 24/7 cable news channels that need to fill timeslots, even if the stories are about tan suits and mustard, but social media allowing any and everybody to show and comment on the happenings of the day.

Just like police brutality didn't recently spike up, it's that we can now monitor, record, and blast it out to every person on the planet within seconds of it happening, whatever the president (or some other important political figure) says or does is going to get blown up. Now this current president may be more likely than most to cause some kind of "event", but "events" are going to increase going forward, rarely lessen.

Edit: I guess I shouldn't walk away to check on something before posting, coke to PF.
   4900. Stevey Posted: June 05, 2020 at 12:12 PM (#5955518)
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