Remember, you have to work Monday km. Don't go too crazy. And don't drive!

I'll be interested in seeing if the Red Sox and Orioles become more prone to trading with each other, with Duquette in Baltimore. (I'm not thinking that Duquette will be a double-agent; I'm thinking that he and Cherington presumably are reasonably comfortable talking to each other).

If this means karl migrates to the Orioles it gets a thumbs up.

I think this is terrific.

I'll be interested in seeing if the Red Sox and Orioles become more prone to trading with each other, with Duquette in Baltimore. (I'm not thinking that Duquette will be a double-agent; I'm thinking that he and Cherington presumably are reasonably comfortable talking to each other).

Isn't Angelos highly resistant to approving trades inside the division?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't know how the #### you manage to find somebody worse than Allard Baird, but, uh, congratulations?

Isn't Angelos highly resistant to approving trades inside the division?

FIFY.

I don't know how the #### you manage to find somebody worse than Allard Baird, but, uh, congratulations?

I know karlmangus's love of him is over-the-top, but Dan Duquette seemed like he was at least a decent GM. Are you maybe confusing him with Jim "Zambrano-for-Kazmir" Duquette?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't know how the #### you manage to find somebody worse than Allard Baird, but, uh, congratulations?

Well, I'm not sure. Here's what I wrote about him in another thread yesterday:

He (and Dave Dombrowski) were responsible for the Expos' successes in the late 1980s and early 1990s. He built the 1994 team, but his legacy was the tremendous farm system he was able to built as a GM and director of player development. The number of quality outfielders he drafted, signed and developped is pretty amazing (Grissom, Floyd, Rondell White, Guerrero). When he left, no one was able to pursue the job he had done so well.

I can't really judge his Boston stay (apart for the Pedro trade, that almost made me cry), but I think he truly deserves another break. He can't be worst than some current GMs, can't he?

I think he can actually be a creative GM if he has to run on a small budget. If anything, I think he drafts well.

seems as if dan duquette has agreed to "work with" showwalter, just as ed wade agreed to "work with" tal smith

Where is Mike Gimbel these days?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I don't know how the #### you manage to find somebody worse than Allard Baird, but, uh, congratulations?

Duquette's track record is actually very good. He took over the Montreal Expos in 1991 and got two 2nd and one 1st place finish in the four years of his tenure. He built the 1995 Red Sox into a pennant winner with a pile of clever little moves, and he then built a squad that went to the playoffs in '98 and '99 and finished second from 2000-2002. It was the core he built that won the World Series in 2004.

I've always been surprised that it took so long for a guy with Duquette's track record to get another job, and I'll definitely be rooting for him.

As was noted in the previous thread, this is a GM who traded for Pedro twice. That's all the resume he needs, really.

The question is whether he will rehire Gimble. Without him, he's lost. Also, I'd like to wish him well, but I just can't.

I've always been surprised that it took so long for a guy with Duquette's track record to get another job, and I'll definitely be rooting for him.

Yeah. Both him and Gaston having such a long wait between jobs was confusing to me.

He built the 1995 Red Sox into a pennant winner

The Cleveland Indians are surprised to hear this.

This has been an incredibly depressing year, and the GM search has almost been worse than the regular season, but I suppose Duquette might be the best option at this point. It's pretty clear that some young rising star isn't going to come work for them, and at least Duquette has a pretty good track record and something to prove. And, if anything, his ego will probably be a big positive in this organization.

The Cleveland Indians are surprised to hear this.

The league pennant and the division pennant have both long been referred to as pennants.

I did not know that.

The O's/Red Sox game chatters are going to be hysterical next year.

I've never heard of, nor have I ever referred to, a division title as a "pennant."

Wikipedia: List of American League East pennant winners

New York Daily News: Historic AL East pennant race

USA Today: White Sox alive in AL Central pennant race

Dallas Observer: Rangers closer to raising AL West pennant

Mets.com: Mets clinch NL East pennant

CBS Sports: Diamondbacks would clinch NL West pennant with a win

It's perfectly normal usage.

Here's a google news archive search for "NL East pennant" between 1986-1987. This has been normal usage for as long as I've been a baseball fan.

Fabulous for you. Until just now, I've never heard or read of a division title being a pennant.

It's perfectly normal usage.

You have embiggened my knowledge.

Mikael,

What you say is true about AL East pennant and NL Central pennant usage, but in a sentence such as the one you wrote, "He built the 1995 Red Sox into a pennant winner," the general assumption (as demonstrated by the posters here) is that you're referring to a team that won the traditional league pennant. You generally don't refer to a division title by the standalone "pennant."

If I said the Rangers won the 2011 pennant, virtually everyone would understand that to mean the Rangers won the league title.

I've always heard division title = "flag" not "pennant."

The real joy would be if the Sox release Wakefield, Duke hires Wake and Manny, and the Orioles cruise to a world championship (with Manny sitting out the first 100 games and being REAL fresh for the playoffs.)

I'd almost move back down to DC for that.

Not quite.

It's actually "flag" for division winners, "ensign" for wild card winner, "standard" for LDS winners, and "pennant" for the LCS winner, except for the Cubs, who if/when they win the NLCS shall be awarded a "gonfalon". :)

Dan Duquette?! Are you ####### kidding me?

Good for him.
He never got as much credit as he deserved for having provided Manny, Damon, Nixon, Varitek, Mirabelli, Pedro, Wakefield and Lowe to the 2004 champions as well as leaving a decent minor league system behind.

Which minor leagues system was better, what Dan Duquette left behind or what the self-aggrandizing editorial writer left behind? I guess we'll see but it's not clear right now.

What you say is true about AL East pennant and NL Central pennant usage, but in a sentence such as the one you wrote, "He built the 1995 Red Sox into a pennant winner," the general assumption (as demonstrated by the posters here) is that you're referring to a team that won the traditional league pennant.

Word.

I had thought Duquette was out of baseball by choice for a while after he left the Red Sox job. But perhaps I'm remembering that wrong.

Duquette's track record is actually very good.

His MLB track record, yes, but his recent involvements with the Israeli League and the Can-Am League, not so much.

This has been an incredibly depressing year, and the GM search has almost been worse than the regular season, but I suppose Duquette might be the best option at this point. It's pretty clear that some young rising star isn't going to come work for them, and at least Duquette has a pretty good track record and something to prove. And, if anything, his ego will probably be a big positive in this organization.

Not a bird watcher, but this sounds pretty much right to me in all particulars, including the acquiescent tone. Seems that with the Angelos O's, there can be no truly good moves, only moves that are better than the available alternatives.

Duquette's had some success, but it's a much different league than it was a decade ago, and a radically different league than it was in the early '90s. Adapt or die...

I really don't see Dan Duquette and Peter Angelos getting along. Angelos needs a GM who can personable and who'll willing to accommodate his need to be constantly informed. I don't think Dan Duquette will embrace that role. Not to mention, part of Duq's success in BOS was signing big ticket free agents (e.g., Manny, Damon, trading for Pedro and then signing him to a huge extension). He won't have that chip in Baltimore.

His best quality is that he's not Jim Duquette.

(Because, while Dan Duquette "is a GM who traded for Pedro twice," Jim Duquette is a GM who traded for Victor Zambrano twice.)

Here's a google news archive search for "NL East pennant" between 1986-1987. This has been normal usage for as long as I've been a baseball fan.

Sure, but *when the division is specified*. If you just say "the pennant", everybody is going to assume you mean the league pennant.

Thankfully, the Orioles strong development system means that an informed GM isn't necessary.

37. Harold Posted: November 05, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3987166)
Sure, but *when the division is specified*. If you just say "the pennant", everybody is going to assume you mean the league pennant

I read it naturally the first time. He used "a" not "the." I took it to mean the AL East.
"Title" is more common than "pennant" but the flag does fly.

He built the 1995 Red Sox into a pennant winner

Always wondered what does a gm do? MacPhail made some good trades and signed some serviceable major leaguers in four years. He never had the budget or the inclination to go after the big free agents but the next O's gm will not have a Soriano, Crawford , or Werth albatross to work around.

The O's were weak when he took over but he left a team with an under 30 major leaguer at each position. I think that all the starting lineup( except Markakis and Roberts) and most of the pitchers were added during the MacPhail regime. Hard to see any improvement in the farm system in his 4 years. The early signees from college (Weiters, Arietta, and Matusz) made it up to the big club quickly and the rest of the system seems short on talent.

How does the gm build a team and develop minor leaguers? All the talk about Douquette is about Pedro and players he traded for or signed at the big league level. Does the gm have much to do with the minor league system other than to hire smart people to run it? How long do you give him to show results?

When the Yankees, RedSox or Phillies farm system doesn't produce players to fill needs, they have the budget to sign free agent talent. Nobody says the gms are poor because the Phillies need to sign a 3b or the Yankees need starters but the truth is those teams didn't scout, sign and produce their own players (the same failing as the O's)from within the organization.

One of the first things "GM" Duquette will have to do is hire a scouting director to replace Joe Jordan; this choice will of course have a direct impact on how much talent the O's have in their farm system moving forward.

"Pennant" is kind of like "championship." If you say someone built a "championship team," you'd probably mean the team had won the World Series, although of course it's also proper to say a team won the league or division championship.

As a standalone term, I have always assumed "pennant" to mean a league title.