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Monday, May 27, 2019

Fantasy Baseball in Math Class? Maddon Offers Unique Perspective On How MLB Can Grow

You’ve seen the tweets - the ones that take TV ratings from big baseball games and throw them next to a random Warriors game from late March, just to make a point. It’s not a groundbreaking narrative: baseball’s struggle to retain younger fans continues. According to some of the latest Nielsen Ratings research, MLB ranks 2nd among the four major sports when it comes to drawing interest from the 18-24 age group. On the surface, not so bad. And while the “Baseball Is Dying” argument is a heavy-handed one, it’s not hard to see that the NBA is quickly gaining ground - especially among the younger generations.

“The NBA is definitely attracting a younger audience, there’s no question about that,” Joe Maddon said. “The fact that there’s the glitz and the color and the speed—I don’t even know what the allure is, quite frankly. I don’t know. I think the spotlight on it and the way it’s promoted appeals to the younger generation.”

Maddon was quick to defend the length of the game, saying he didn’t think the two were correlated at all. (For what it’s worth, a 2018 study revealed that the average NBA game lasted 2:13, while the current average run time of a MLB game this year is at 3:06.) Instead, Maddon pointed to how the NBA’s stars are marketed.

“I do agree in the sense that I think we could do a better job promoting our players, no question,” he said. “I would not disagree with that. We have so many interesting stories to tell among our groups and I don’t think the fans - the young fans- really get to know that possibly as well as they know NBA players. Even in the NFL, I don’t think you know those players - plus they wear helmets so you can’t see their face. All that stuff matters.”

It’s been a while since we’ve had a thread like this- wonder what directions we’ll go this time….

QLE Posted: May 27, 2019 at 06:59 AM | 50 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: joe maddon, ratings, the future, youth

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   1. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5845891)
A more off-the-wall idea Maddon threw out was incorporating fantasy baseball into school curriculum. Math classes could offer a gentle approach into the world of analytics, and teachers could give students roles as GMs, Ass. GMs, and scouts of their own teams.

Kids hate math, and kids hate baseball. Sounds like a match made in Heaven, although I guess I should be glad he's not advocating for creating a bunch of 10-year-old gambling addicts by forcing them to play DFS.
   2. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 27, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5845908)
I think baseball is always going to be a cultivated taste, passed down from parents to children. It's a more sober, professional game, whereas the NBA is glitzy and freewheeling.

The biggest issues are 1) MLB has tried their absolute hardest to price parents with young kids out of the stadium (I'm looking at $300 just to get my two nephews, my father, and me into Yankee Stadium for a July game vs. the Blue Jays, in mediocre seats), and 2) MLB has made their TV product (especially in the post-season) last an extra hour longer than it should, and end too late for kids. Hell, I can't stay up for most playoff games.

   3. Scott Lange Posted: May 27, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5845914)
1) MLB has tried their absolute hardest to price parents with young kids out of the stadium (I'm looking at $300 just to get my two nephews, my father, and me into Yankee Stadium for a July game vs. the Blue Jays, in mediocre seats),


Which day do you want to go? You can sit in the bleachers Friday for $20 each. Upper deck right behind the catcher for $32. Terrace level behind first base for $46. And you get a Mariano Rivera bobblehead.

https://www.stubhub.com/new-york-yankees-tickets-new-york-yankees-bronx-yankee-stadium-7-13-2019/event/103812341/?sort=price+asc&sid=171438
   4. Dr. Vaux Posted: May 27, 2019 at 02:02 PM (#5845924)
There's also the money to get into the city. It costs as much to get into New York city as it does to get into an amusement park.
   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: May 27, 2019 at 02:18 PM (#5845928)
Maddon was quick to defend the length of the game, saying he didn’t think the two were correlated at all.
I'm sure he was. Bog standard "Other people should definitely make changes to improve the marketability of baseball!"
   6. 185/456(GGC) Posted: May 27, 2019 at 04:20 PM (#5845972)
It costs as much to get into New York city as it does to get into an amusement park.


Imagine how much it is to take your family to Coney Island.
   7. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 27, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5846008)
The biggest issues are 1) MLB has tried their absolute hardest to price parents with young kids out of the stadium


A friend from the UK was in Chicago and wanted suggestions on what to do -- I suggested the Cubs-Marlins game and he got a good upper-deck seat for $9.
   8. Bote Man Posted: May 27, 2019 at 07:40 PM (#5846017)
I suggested the Cubs-Marlins game and he got a good upper-deck seat for $9.

HOW??
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 27, 2019 at 08:02 PM (#5846023)

Which day do you want to go? You can sit in the bleachers Friday for $20 each. Upper deck right behind the catcher for $32. Terrace level behind first base for $46. And you get a Mariano Rivera bobblehead.


Yeah, I can't put my nephews in the upper deck. They get to go to one game a year, maybe two.

There's also the money to get into the city. It costs as much to get into New York city as it does to get into an amusement park.

We get free paring b/c we know a guy. But the concessions and souvenirs are another easy 4150-200.
   10. Scott Lange Posted: May 27, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5846038)
Yeah, I can't put my nephews in the upper deck. They get to go to one game a year, maybe two.

You said you were "looking at $300 just to get in the stadium." If only you had explained that 2/3rds of the seats in the park were beneath your nephews' dignity, I would've understood better what that meant.

Sorry if that's too snarky, but it's just not accurate to complain that you can't go to a game for less than $300. Lots of people would kill for the chance to sit in the upper deck (or bleachers, or terrace level). If you insist on field level seats and concessions and souvenirs, you don't also get to complain about how unaffordable it all is.
   11. Walt Davis Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:41 AM (#5846051)
souvenirs are another easy 4150-200.

So costly you've got to fill out the gift tax form?

Lots of people would kill for the chance to sit in the upper deck

Snapper knows a guy ...
   12. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:29 PM (#5846188)
We do have the most intellectually stimulating game of all, by far.


Completely and utterly false.
   13. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5846194)
It's like he's never even heard of tetherball.
   14. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: May 28, 2019 at 06:13 PM (#5846267)
Lots of people would kill for the chance to sit in the upper deck (or bleachers, or terrace level).

Modern stadia don't really have "bad seats" anymore; it's not like they'll sit you behind a support pole. Went to CitiField (first time) to see Mets/Tigers over the weekend; sat way up in heaven, $22 seats. Had no problem seeing everything; my wife loved it.

If you insist on field level seats and concessions and souvenirs, you don't also get to complain about how unaffordable it all is.

This just in: Major league sporting events are expensive. (In a related story, events in New York City are also expensive.)
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:26 PM (#5846289)
Sorry if that's too snarky, but it's just not accurate to complain that you can't go to a game for less than $300. Lots of people would kill for the chance to sit in the upper deck (or bleachers, or terrace level). If you insist on field level seats and concessions and souvenirs, you don't also get to complain about how unaffordable it all is.

It's not even close to field level. We're talking 2nd deck, in the OF, and that's $80 a ticket plus fees. The upper deck in the DNYS is so far back that you're better off at home.

Modern stadia don't really have "bad seats" anymore; it's not like they'll sit you behind a support pole. Went to CitiField (first time) to see Mets/Tigers over the weekend; sat way up in heaven, $22 seats. Had no problem seeing everything; my wife loved it.

Upper deck in the current Yankee Stadium is much worse than the previous. It used to overhang the lower deck, now it's a bowl. They're terrible seats, as are the bleachers (but they've always been terrible).
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:27 PM (#5846290)
We do have the most intellectually stimulating game of all, by far.


Completely and utterly false.

Seriously? Baseball is far more interesting than any other major sport.
   17. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:02 PM (#5846299)
I don't see how you can say one is more stimulating or interesting than another. I mean, setting aside sports like bowling and darts. There is as much strategy in a single NFL play as there is in an MLB game, but 95% of it is over the head of the average viewer. Basketball's appeal is less academic but it is more personality-driven, which is stimulating in a different way. The strategy in soccer is more difficult to understand, the positions are nebulous and the movements are so fluid and can only partially be scripted, but for aficionados this makes it all even more appealing.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:16 PM (#5846304)
There is as much strategy in a single NFL play as there is in an MLB game, but 95% of it is over the head of the average viewer.

Really? Coaches calling plays as strategy, sure, but that's a very narrow definition of strategy.

Baseball has a tremendous amount of strategy in the pitcher-catcher-hitter confrontation. There are 300 pitch decisions, and 300 swing decisions in an average game. Then there's all the defensive positioning. Baseball has an awful lot of strategy, it's just mostly in the hands of the players.

Football would be a much better game if they got rid of audio communication between the bench and the field, and made the QBs and defensive captains call the plays like BITD.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:53 PM (#5846322)
Really? Coaches calling plays as strategy, sure, but that's a very narrow definition of strategy.


Narrow? Narrow how? The movements of 11 men are highly scripted and highly coordinated to achieve a single aim, based on extensive study of the opponent and of the team's strengths, employing bluffs, surprises, misdirections etc, with a full awareness of the results of previous plays, mindfulness of longterm goals, and all highly influenced by the most au currant thinking in the game. It is the very height of sports strategy. It's one of the best examples of strategy, period.

And then the play happens, and some of those players are required to make judgment calls that have few parallels in baseball. (In baseball sometimes a player needs to decide which base to throw to. Sometimes. In football, a safety has dozens of times where he has to decide, based on the first 2-3 seconds of the play, what he needs to do, with potentially disastrous consequences for poor decision-making. And the QB is on another level.)

The pitcher/hitter game is wonderful of course, but let's get real, most of the time it's "hard stuff in, soft stuff away," many hitters are just using their pure reactions, many pitchers have limited repertoires, and there's a limit to the fascination of "will he go back to the curveball?"

Player positioning has recently changed from "the SS always stands here, but a smart SS might cheat a little this way because he knows a curveball is coming up" to "the SS stands somewhere new, based on big data analysis." There are few of the in-game adjustments that are seen as vital in the NFL. There's a reason you see NFL players studying printouts of the opponent's formations when they're on the sidelines, because if they can't adjust immediately they can get in trouble. (But, like I said, most of it goes way over the heads of viewers, including myself.)

(As for whether the coach or player is making the decisions, I don't see how that impacts how strategic it is. I think it's lame that some managers call pitches from the dugout, but it doesn't really materially change the conflict between pitcher and hitter. Makes it less emotionally compelling, probably.)
   20. PreservedFish Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:58 PM (#5846326)
And the two sports are moving in opposite directions on this. The wonkiest baseball strategy, like "what's the best count for a hit & run," is getting scrubbed from the game. Hitters are being told to swing the same swings on 3-0 and 0-2. The junkballers have been replaced by fastball-slider guys. I'm glad that defensive strategy has blossomed recently, but that seems to be an exception, in other ways the sport is getting more monotonous.

Whereas in football, christ, you can't even play a football video game anymore without devoting hours of study to the different formations and plays.

If you think "will he throw a changeup here?" is more strategic than anything in football, you're fooling yourself. It might be more enjoyable, but that's precisely because it's such a simple strategic inflection point that it can be easily understood by all watching. (Chess is more strategic than baseball, but it's not enjoyable to watch, because you need to be an actual genius to understand what the hell is happening.) Baseball's pace also makes it seem strategic, because you can mull over what's going to happen in the next play. In football there's too much going on for any one brain to understand.

Remember that Okrent book about one game? In football you could probably do that for one play.

I'd say baseball is dramatically less strategic than football, but perhaps is more suited to the enjoyment of strategy.
   21. base ball chick Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:17 PM (#5846332)
for goodness sakes snapper

teams make tons of money on souveniers and concessions. you don't HAVE to get those. i went to umpty astros games with or without kidsss and we didn't get them

i thought all yall had all thos incredible mass transit and trains and stuff Up There

take a train or bus or something

it doesn't have to be expensive

and what major league kind of sport or concert is cheap these days?a you wanna see beyonce or travis scott it isn't 10 bucks. nfl, nba isn't cheap neither

you could take the kids to see the brooklyn cyclones if you want something cheap

kids are turned off of MLB because it is marketing itself to the wealthy White 60 year olds - all the military and flag waving and faith/family night isnt trying to interest people age 10 - 35. i don't know what kind of music they play at other stadiums, but at astros games, they play 80s rock and jackie earl king - or whatever his name is

oh yeah, kidz are also turned off of baseball because it costs a lot of money to play little league and they have to have at least one parent who is always free to take them and has plenty of spare cash for unis and equipment and cage time and a personal coach. you can't play in the streets or at a city park or in your driveway with a bunch of other kids.

oh yeah - and the owners/commish have spent 20 years degrading the players and deriding them as greedy and drug riddled and making sure that none of them become STAHS!!! like sammy sosa was, that evulll druggie. they are bland nd boring and have some woman in charge of their mandatory charity. if they dare to not be bland or boring like, say, derek dietrich (to mention the one White guy i can think of who dares to not be boring) they are put down as not Playing The Game The Right Way. bleccch

and, frankly, TTO baseball is just as bland and boring as the personas of the guys who play it
   22. Scott Lange Posted: May 29, 2019 at 08:45 AM (#5846395)
It's not even close to field level. We're talking 2nd deck, in the OF, and that's $80 a ticket plus fees


What are you talking about? Did you click the link? Second deck in the outfield starts at $20 each, not $80.
   23. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 29, 2019 at 08:53 AM (#5846397)
The movements of 11 men are highly scripted and highly coordinated to achieve a single aim, based on extensive study of the opponent and of the team's strengths, employing bluffs, surprises, misdirections etc, with a full awareness of the results of previous plays, mindfulness of longterm goals, and all highly influenced by the most au currant thinking in the game. It is the very height of sports strategy. It's one of the best examples of strategy, period.


For every single play, the coach first has to decide which 11 men are even on the field. Then he has to decide how they will line up. Then you get to how they will move once the ball is snapped, which means there an infinite number of possibilities on each play.

People seem reluctant to admit this because they think we're arguing that football is "better" than baseball in some way. But if you think football is somehow less strategic than baseball, you don't know all that much about either sport.
   24. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 29, 2019 at 08:59 AM (#5846400)
kids are turned off of MLB because it is marketing itself to the wealthy White 60 year olds - all the military and flag waving and faith/family night isnt trying to interest people age 10 - 35


This is a very good point. The only people who really care about all the military fetishism are middle-aged men.
   25. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 29, 2019 at 09:35 AM (#5846407)
PF does a much better job than I could of pointing out how football is insanely more strategic than baseball.

Then there's all the defensive positioning.


Baseball is finally getting real for first time about positioning after 150+ of being as advanced as your local T-Ball team.

And at least 50% of the fanbase is crying and saying it is ruining the game.

   26. 185/456(GGC) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5846455)
The junkballers have been replaced by fastball-slider guys.


If there was one thing that I could change about today's game, this would be it.

The Astros play Robert Earl Keen? Do they play "The Great Hank?" I think the Astros are pounding some team on the TV in the song's lyrics.
   27. Ithaca2323 Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5846477)
It's okay to think things are overpriced even if you're not going to take all of the absolute cheapest possible options available to you.
   28. manchestermets Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5846480)
It's not okay to use "X costs $80" to illustrate why they're overpriced if X only costs $20 though.
   29. Hysterical & Useless Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:57 PM (#5846492)
snapper (or anybody else who's interested), the last couple of years at least the Yankees have partnered with the Red Cross in Westchester (maybe other NYC-area locales as well) to give away tickets to blood donors. Every donor gets 2 tickets. Yes, they tell you what game and which seats, but it's a better deal than anywhere else I could spill my blood. Likely won't help with your family outing (the game they choose is usually in late August I think) but free tickets cut your total ticket cost in half!

Interesting that the game where everyone talks about the complex tactics is the game where your best play is to break the other team's QB's leg...no no, I know that nobody tries to injure the other team's players...

Funny, I remember back 47 or so years ago Sports Illustrated was proclaiming the NBA "the sport of the 70s," because of its speed and appeal to youth.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5846497)
Funny, I remember back 47 or so years ago Sports Illustrated was proclaiming the NBA "the sport of the 70s," because of its speed and appeal to youth.


Were they wrong? The NBA exploded in popularity over the next two decades, didn't it?
   31. Lassus Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:11 PM (#5846500)
But the concessions and souvenirs are another easy 4150-200.

Um. Bring snacks and buy less crap. Which is not even to be be a total killjoy and say BUY NOTHING, just that there are simple ways to prevent the stadium from forcing you to spend money.
   32. PreservedFish Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:15 PM (#5846502)
Interesting that the game where everyone talks about the complex tactics is the game where your best play is to break the other team's QB's leg


I think one of the interesting things about football is how different positions have different demands. A nose tackle will often be told to just run after the ball, mindlessly, on every play, and I remember hearing that some coaches actually prefer stupid players at that position. And yet the nose tackle still arguably exhibits just as much "strategy" as most baseball defenders do on most plays. Baseball movement is so highly prescribed by tradition that almost any mental error can be described as a failure to understand fundamentals. When you're in the field, and a ball is hit in one direction, tradition describes exactly where you are supposed to go. There is very little room for improvisation. Just think about how well-known that Jeter relay play is. Improvisation is delightful when it happens, but it's rare.
   33. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:22 PM (#5846504)
I remember back 47 or so years ago Sports Illustrated was proclaiming the NBA "the sport of the 70s," because of its speed and appeal to youth.

I always thought it was because of Darnell Hillman's spectacular afro.
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:55 PM (#5846526)
It's not okay to use "X costs $80" to illustrate why they're overpriced if X only costs $20 though.

I followed your link, $20 is bleachers, not 2nd deck OF. 2nd deck OF is $60-100, which is just about face.

I'm already on record saying bleachers and upper deck are terrible, terrible seats. I'd rather watch on TV than sit there for free. And sitting there with a 7 y.o. and and 11 y.o. who can't see a damn thing, would be torture.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:56 PM (#5846527)
Um. Bring snacks and buy less crap. Which is not even to be be a total killjoy and say BUY NOTHING, just that there are simple ways to prevent the stadium from forcing you to spend money.

When it's a once a year outing with kids, you can't really do that.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5846529)
Narrow? Narrow how? The movements of 11 men are highly scripted and highly coordinated to achieve a single aim, based on extensive study of the opponent and of the team's strengths, employing bluffs, surprises, misdirections etc, with a full awareness of the results of previous plays, mindfulness of longterm goals, and all highly influenced by the most au currant thinking in the game. It is the very height of sports strategy. It's one of the best examples of strategy, period.

And 99% of plays look the same on every team. All the teams copy each other and have basically the same plays. All they're trying to do is surprise the other team with their sequencing, which is the same as the hitter/pitcher dynamic.

Also, the scripting of the plays is not strategy to me. Otherwise a ballet company has incredible strategy.
   37. Lassus Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:01 PM (#5846530)
When it's a once a year outing with kids, you can't really do that.

Well, you won't. I understand that. But you could.
   38. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:03 PM (#5846531)
Well, you won't. I understand that. But you could.

Yes, but what's the price tag on listening to a kid whine for two hours that he wants an ice cream?
   39. Tom Nawrocki Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:06 PM (#5846532)
Were they wrong? The NBA exploded in popularity over the next two decades, didn't it?


It did, but it was a temporary thing. NBA Finals TV ratings took off in 1982, peaking in 1998 (Jordan's last year), but they haven't been very good since then. The record low was set for an entire Finals was set in 2007; the record low for a Finals game was in 2003.

In recent years, the NBA Finals ratings have been higher than the World Series some years, lower in others. Cubs-Indians in 2016 had a higher average rating than any NBA Finals since Jordan retired. No World Series rating has ever reached the low of the lowest NBA Finals.
   40. Nasty Nate Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5846533)
I haven't been to the new Yankee Stadium, but at most places the upper deck behind home plate gives a much better view than anyplace behind the outfield.
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5846535)
I haven't been to the new Yankee Stadium, but at most places the upper deck behind home plate gives a much better view than anyplace behind the outfield.

In the old stadium that was very true. The upper deck hung over so much, you were very close. The new one is a bowl, so much worse seats.
   42. Nasty Nate Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:26 PM (#5846538)
In the old stadium that was very true. The upper deck hung over so much, you were very close. The new one is a bowl, so much worse seats.
That's too bad. In old or new, also, the steepness of upper decks is probably not ideal for elderly and kids.
   43. PreservedFish Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:26 PM (#5846539)
And 99% of plays look the same on every team. All the teams copy each other and have basically the same plays. All they're trying to do is surprise the other team with their sequencing, which is the same as the hitter/pitcher dynamic.

Also, the scripting of the plays is not strategy to me. Otherwise a ballet company has incredible strategy.


You just don't like football.
   44. Starring RMc as Bradley Scotchman Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5846575)
I'm already on record saying bleachers and upper deck are terrible, terrible seats. I'd rather watch on TV than sit there for free.

See, I don't get this at all. But I think I have a different idea of what constitutes a "good seat" than other people do; most folks would rather be near the field, close to the action. I prefer to be where I can see the whole field at once, so I actually prefer the higher-up seats. At minor-league games, I'd rather be in the last row on the first-base side than sit right behind the catcher. But that's me.
   45. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5846579)
Yes, but what's the price tag on listening to a kid whine for two hours that he wants an ice cream?
Dunno, but it's probably less than the price tag from listening to the same kid whining that you won't take them to their once-a-year outing at all because it's too expensive.
   46. Swoboda is freedom Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:51 PM (#5846580)
We went to a game with my daughters to see the Mets. We go once a year. No souvenirs. We brought food, which is better quality and you don't have to wait in the lines.. You are allowed to bring one 20 ounce water per person. I let them get ice cream.

You can buy souvenirs either outside the stadium for much cheaper or on Amazon. I know you want to make it special, ut there are some cost cuts you can do.
   47. Ithaca2323 Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:16 PM (#5846591)
It's not okay to use "X costs $80" to illustrate why they're overpriced if X only costs $20 though.


But that's the point. X doesn't cost $20. The absolute cheapest version possible of X costs $20.

Why are we acting like the cheapest version of going to a baseball game is what we're really when we're making a point about the sport pricing out the fans, which is what snapper was doing in #2?

If someone mentions housing costs being expensive, do we come back with "Well, only if you're not willing to live in a really cruddy apartment and find three other people to split the rent with you. When you do that, it's actually quite reasonable."
   48. PreservedFish Posted: May 29, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5846615)
Terrible analogy.
   49. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 29, 2019 at 07:02 PM (#5846629)
Yes, but what's the price tag on listening to a kid whine for two hours that he wants an ice cream?


We listen to you whine everyday for free.
   50. CraigK Posted: May 30, 2019 at 07:15 AM (#5846722)
Yes, but what's the price tag on listening to a kid whine for two hours that he wants an ice cream?


i mean, when i went as a kid i was told \"#### off we're not spending $20 on ice cream, a hot dog and a coke"

of course in the game we went to, we left in the middle of the ninth to beat traffic so maybe not take my parents' decisions as fact

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