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Friday, December 13, 2019

Former Padres, Giants manager Bochy to manage French team

SAN DIEGO (AP) — Bruce Bochy isn’t quite done managing after all.

Bochy might have just retired after a decorated 25-year career in the dugout with San Diego and San Francisco. But he is already embracing a new challenge: Trying to guide his native France to the next World Baseball Classic in 2021.

The French national team will try to qualify next year for its first WBC. Bochy was born in Landes de Bussac, France, where his father, Gus, was stationed in the U.S. Army. Bochy will have son, Brett — a former Giants minor leaguer — pitching for him and his brother, Joe, on the coaching staff. Bochy was chosen by Didier Seminet, president of the French Federation of Baseball.

Well, when you run out of worlds to conquer at the MLB level, why not try international baseball?

 

QLE Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:59 AM | 45 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bruce bochy, french baseball, world baseball classic

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   1. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: December 13, 2019 at 07:13 AM (#5908389)
Bochy has already chosen his starting RF, Jeff Francoeur.
   2. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: December 13, 2019 at 08:08 AM (#5908392)
That should be fun for him.

The Welsh word for "Frenchman" is "Ffrancwr", pronounced "Francoeur".
   3. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: December 13, 2019 at 08:11 AM (#5908393)
Are Steve Jeltz and Charlie Lea available?

EDIT: Heck, is Melissa Mayeux available...?
   4. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 13, 2019 at 08:26 AM (#5908397)
his native France
Je croix que ce n’est pas le mot.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: December 13, 2019 at 08:40 AM (#5908398)
Je croix que ce n’est pas le mot.


Bochy was born in France. Obviously he was a U.S. citizen, but I don't think that stops him from being native to France.
   6. Charles S. is not doing chainsaw bears any more Posted: December 13, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5908409)
Changing his name to Beauchet?
   7. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 13, 2019 at 10:17 AM (#5908415)
BRef shows that there have been 6 position players and 2 pitchers born in France. Steve Jeltz had the most PAs in MLB
   8. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 13, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5908432)
Bochy was born in France. Obviously he was a U.S. citizen, but I don't think that stops him from being native to France.
I'd be willing to bet the French don't see it that way.
   9. bunyon Posted: December 13, 2019 at 10:59 AM (#5908442)
This is a mistake. He'll be fine in qualifying next year but they need to find someone else for 2021.
   10. PreservedFish Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5908446)
I'd be willing to bet the French don't see it that way.


I don't think I see it that way either. Sounds wrong.
   11. SoSH U at work Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5908450)
So would you guys say "his native U.S.", even though he wasn't born in the U.S.? Cuz that sounds wronger to me.
   12. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5908453)
Yeah, I think so - if he was born a U.S. citizen to American parents who just happened to be abroad, and then moved back here when he was very young and grew up here, I would describe him as a U.S. native.
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:26 AM (#5908454)
Yeah, I think so - if he was born a U.S. citizen to American parents who just happened to be abroad, and then moved back here when he was very young and grew up here, I would describe him as a U.S. native.


I'd describe him as a U.S. citizen at birth, but not a native. Different strokes, I guess.
   14. RoyalFlush Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:29 AM (#5908457)
In my five minutes of internet research on the current French baseball roster, it appears that they have a 54 yr old novelist/dramatist on their pitching staff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_national_baseball_team
   15. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5908460)
My wife was born in Delaware while her dad was in vet school. Her parents are Mexican, she moved back to Mexico when she was like 4 years old, and lived in Mexico City until coming back to the U.S. for a year in undergrad and then again several years later for an LLM degree (whereupon she had the misfortune of meeting me). She would absolutely describe herself as a Mexican native (but also a U.S. citizen at birth).
   16. . Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:33 AM (#5908463)
M. Bochy devrait toujours être l'entraîneur des Giants.
   17. . Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5908467)
Mais au lieu de cela, les Giants ont embauché un nouveau président avec la philosophie de baseball privilégiée par ceux qui préfèrent le confort du sous-sol de maman.
   18. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:40 AM (#5908471)
In my five minutes of internet research on the current French baseball roster, it appears that they have a 54 yr old novelist/dramatist on their pitching staff.


This sounds like the most French thing ever, as long as he also chain-smokes Gauloises.
   19. base ball chick Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5908475)
translatey voo par excellence le google
   20. SoSH U at work Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5908476)
She would absolutely describe herself as a Mexican native (but also a U.S. citizen at birth).


Like I said, different strokes. To me native, like nativity, refers to birth.

FWIW, Webster supports both of those interpretations.

   21. jmurph Posted: December 13, 2019 at 11:55 AM (#5908480)
I think Bochy just needs to go with the much simpler "born in France, but American" description.
   22. PreservedFish Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5908487)
SOSH, if Bochy described himself as a native American, you'd dispute that? I really don't get that.

It's true that the dictionary does lend support to either interpretation, but I think that in an uncertain situation like this it is wrong to apply a narrow, technical, fussy application to the word.
   23. . Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5908489)
If he was born to a US Army guy stationed in France, it's not his "native France." That's preposterous, stretching the concept beyond all bounds of sanity. Were kids born to the German occupying soldiers in 1943, "natives of France"? Come on, now.

Bigger picture, these kind of phrases, contemplations, discussions, navel-gazing quests for "identity," are anti-humanist. I dissent and j'accuse.
   24. base ball chick Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:07 PM (#5908490)
the "native" question these days is interesting. (seeing as how it is trying to be used to keep non-caucasians from becoming citizens - but i digress)

so if some caucasian parents are working in, say, nigeria, and the woman give birth there, is their child a "Nigerian" if it spends its whole life to adulthood there? (assuming that anyone born there is automatically a citizen, like here)

what if the mother is in some other country on a tourist or work visa when she gives birth? like, suppose my mother had been in denmark when she gave birth to me - would i really be a Dane? (not the Great kind)

i am pretty sure that if an american military person gives birth on an american base, the child is not a citizen of whatever country the base is in- the base is considered "us soil" like a plane. not sure what happens if the soldier happens to give birth off base

if bochy's mother is a french citizen, then he is too, no matter who his father is
   25. SoSH U at work Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:11 PM (#5908492)
SOSH, if Bochy described himself as a native American, you'd dispute that?


Elizabeth Warren would probably caution against it.

I wouldn't really dispute anyone from self-identification. I've been merely been speaking about how I use the word.

   26. . Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5908493)
so if some caucasian parents are working in, say, nigeria, and the woman give birth there, is their child a "Nigerian" if it spends its whole life to adulthood there?


Yes, of course the child is Nigerian if she's born there and acculturated there through adulthood. It's the acculturation that rules, not the ethnicity or the blood or the soil or the blood-and-soil.

what if the mother is in some other country on a tourist or work visa when she gives birth? like, suppose my mother had been in denmark when she gave birth to me - would i really be a Dane? (not the Great kind)


Nope. And birth really doesn't have much to do with the real questions at hand.

Hypo 1: American woman gives birth in France, recovers a few days, flies back to America, never goes back to France. Hypo 2: American woman loves France, has tough birth in America, to recover emotionally and physically flies with kid a few days after birth to France and stays there with kid for six months. How is the kid in Hypo 1 possibly more a "native of France" than the second?

   27. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5908494)
Nope. And birth really doesn't have much to do with the real questions at hand.

Hypo 1: American woman gives birth in France, recovers a few days, flies back to America, never goes back to France. Hypo 2: American woman loves France, has tough birth in America, to recover emotionally and physically flies with kid a few days after birth to France and stays there with kid for six months. How is the kid in Hypo 1 possibly more a "native of France" than the second?


Depends on the laws/rules/mores of the country in question. Every country gets to decide these things for themselves.

I could have been born and spent my entire life in China or Japan and never be considered Chinese or Japanese.
   28. . Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5908495)
Every country gets to decide these things for themselves.


They get to decide citizenship for themselves. Citizenship is a far more superficial concept than the ones under discussion, though. And technically, no, France or any other country doesn't get to decide that someone with no tie to the country is a citizen of that country. Honduras doesn't get to pronounce me a citizen of Honduras.

I could have been born and spent my entire life in China or Japan and never be considered Chinese or Japanese.


What does "be considered" mean? Certainly you would be validly subject to Chinese or Japanese law and process in those scenarios. You can only be resting this claim on pure ethnicity.
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:25 PM (#5908498)
What does "be considered" mean? Certainly you would be validly subject to Chinese or Japanese law and process in those scenarios. You can only be resting this claim on pure ethnicity.

I'm not resting on anything. Those societies rest being Chinese or Japanese on ethnicity. The people there would not consider you or I to be Chinese or Japanese (regardless of citizenship or residency) because of our ethnicity. Their law might say we were citizens (I don't know) but no one would view us as belonging to their nation.

But that's the way these things work. A national group, just like a religion, gets to define the criteria of its membership. I don't think there's a right or wrong here.
   30. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 13, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5908500)
In my five minutes of internet research on the current French baseball roster, it appears that they have a 54 yr old novelist/dramatist on their pitching staff.

Les gens viendront, Ray. Ils viendront en Iowa pour des raisons qu'ils ne peuvent même pas comprendre. Ils monteront votre entrée sans savoir avec certitude pourquoi ils le font. Ils arriveront à votre porte aussi innocents que des enfants, aspirant au passé. Et ils regarderont le match et ce sera comme s'ils se plongeaient dans des eaux magiques. Les souvenirs seront si épais qu'ils devront les éloigner de leurs visages. La seule constante à travers toutes les années, Ray, a été le baseball. Ce champ, ce jeu; cela fait partie de notre passé, Ray. Cela nous rappelle tout ce qui était bon autrefois, et qui pourrait l'être à nouveau. Oh… les gens viendront, Ray. Les gens viendront certainement.
   31. base ball chick Posted: December 13, 2019 at 01:32 PM (#5908518)
snapper

i looked it up. you can't be a citizen of chine or japan unless one of your parents is chinese/japanese
   32. RoyalFlush Posted: December 13, 2019 at 01:35 PM (#5908519)
Before I ran that through translator, I thought you kept calling me RDP.
   33. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 13, 2019 at 02:22 PM (#5908531)
snapper

i looked it up. you can't be a citizen of chine or japan unless one of your parents is chinese/japanese


So it's enshrined in law too. Interesting.

Is it the parents' citizenship or ethnicity? Can an ethnic Japanese born in Hawii become a Japanese citizen?
   34. Carl Goetz Posted: December 13, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5908554)
If the French team wins at WBC, we should entirely forgo any election and put Bochy in the Hall of Fame immediately.
   35. vortex of dissipation Posted: December 13, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5908561)
i looked it up. you can't be a citizen of chine or japan unless one of your parents is chinese/japanese


I don't believe that's true. Alex Ramirez, who is from Venezuela, became a naturalized Japanese citizen earlier this year.
   36. PreservedFish Posted: December 13, 2019 at 03:39 PM (#5908566)
you can't be a citizen of chine or japan unless one of your parents is chinese/japanese


Are the Uighurs in concentration camps considered citizens? Ethnic Tibetans?
   37. Zach Posted: December 13, 2019 at 04:21 PM (#5908574)
Blackstone has an interesting commentary on the subject:


Allegiance, both express and implied, is however distinguished by the law into two sorts or species, the one natural, the other local; the former being also perpetual, the latter temporary. Natural allegiance is such as is due from all men born within the king's dominions immediately upon their birth. For, immediately upon their birth, they are under the king's protection; at a time too, when (during their infancy) they are incapable of protecting themselves. Natural allegiance is therefore a debt of gratitude; which cannot be forfeited, cancelled, or altered, by any change of time, place, or circumstance, nor by any thing but the united concurrence of the legislature. An Englishman who removes to France, or to China, owes the same allegiance to the king of England there as at home, and twenty years hence as well as now. For it is a principle of universal law, that the natural-born subject of one prince cannot by any act of his own, no, not by swearing allegiance to another, put off or discharge his natural allegiance to the former: for this natural allegiance was intrinsic, and primitive, and antecedent to the other; and cannot be devested without the concurrent act of that prince to whom it was first due. Indeed the natural-born subject of one prince, to whom he owes allegiance, may be entangled by subjecting himself absolutely to another; but it is his own act that brings him into these straits and difficulties, of owing service to two masters; and it is unreasonable that, by such voluntary act of his own, he should be able at pleasure to unloose those bands, by which he is connected to his natural prince.

Local allegiance is such as is due from an alien, or stranger born, for so long time as he continues within the king's dominion and protection: and it ceases, the instant such stranger transfers himself from this kingdom to another. Natural allegiance is therefore perpetual, and local temporary only: and that for this reason, evidently founded upon the nature of government; that allegiance is a debt due from the subject, upon an implied contract with the prince, that so long as the one affords protection, so long the other will demean himself faithfully. As therefore the prince is always under a constant tie to protect his natural-born subjects, at all times and in all countries, for this reason their allegiance due to him is equally universal and permanent. But, on the other hand, as the prince affords his protection to an alien, only during his residence in this realm, the allegiance of an alien is confined (in point of time) to the duration of such his residence, and (in point of locality) to the dominions of the British empire.

...

When I say, that an alien is one who is born out of the king's dominions, or allegiance, this also must be understood with some restrictions. The common law indeed stood absolutely so; with only a very few exceptions: so that a particular act of parliament became necessary after the restoration, for the naturalization of children of his majesty's English subjects, born in foreign countries during the late troubles. And this maxim of the law proceeded upon a general principle, that every man owes natural allegiance where he is born, and cannot owe two such allegiances, or serve two masters, at once. Yet the children of the king's embassadors born abroad were always held to be natural subjects: for as the father, though in a foreign country, owes not even a local allegiance to the prince to whom he is sent; so, with regard to the son also, he was held (by a kind of postliminium) to be born under the king of England's allegiance, represented by his father, the embassador. To encourage also foreign commerce, it was enacted by statute 25 Edw. III. st. 2. that all children born abroad, provided both their parents were at the time of the birth in allegiance to the king, and the mother had passed the seas by her husband's consent, might inherit as if born in England: and accordingly it hath been so adjudged in behalf of merchants. But by several more modern statutes these restrictions are still farther taken off: so that all children, born out of the king's ligeance, whose fathers were natural-born subjects, are now natural-born subjects themselves, to all intents and purposes, without any exception; unless their said fathers were attainted, or banished beyond sea, for high treason; or were then in the service of a prince at enmity with Great Britain.


As I understand it, Bochy was born a citizen of the United States. If the French government had tried to detain him, his parents could have appealed to the American ambassador. Thus, his natural allegiance was to the USA. He had a local allegiance to France, in that he was expected to abide by their laws as long as he stayed in the country.
   38. donlock Posted: December 13, 2019 at 06:49 PM (#5908604)
Do any of the Bochy family involved in this adventure speak French?
   39. "RMc", the superbatsman Posted: December 13, 2019 at 07:46 PM (#5908610)
Steve Jeltz had the most PAs in MLB

...and most of them were bad. Jeltz has the 27th-worst OPS+ since 1901 (minimum 2000 PA) among non-pitchers, at 61. (Then again, Steve Mathis can somehow continue to find big-league employment with an OPS+ of 48, with almost 3,000 PA!)
   40. depletion Posted: December 14, 2019 at 11:15 AM (#5908678)
What do they have in the concessions? I can't imagine hot dogs and peanuts will do in France. Pomme frites et escargot? Medoc instead of Bud? Perrier instead of Coke?
   41. Howie Menckel Posted: December 14, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5908680)
Bochy will have son, Brett — a former Giants minor leaguer —

this one slipped past dozens of goalies here.

Brett Bochy allowed 2 ER in 3.3 IP in 2014 for the Giants, then twirled 3 scoreless, meaningless innings to wrap up 2015 and leave him with a blistering 145 career MLB ERA+. His FIP is double his 2.84 ERA, but he fanned 6 and allowed jut 2 hits with 3 walks.

fun fact: all of this pitching came as a two-time September callup - this is exactly the guy who will never pitch in the majors because of the new September roster restrictions (well, he was the manager's son so maybe this is not the exact guy. woulda been the guy that Bruce screwed over to get his kid some MLB IP).
   42. The Yankee Clapper Posted: December 14, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5908706)
. . . so if some caucasian parents are working in, say, nigeria, and the woman give birth there, is their child a "Nigerian" if it spends its whole life to adulthood there? (assuming that anyone born there is automatically a citizen, like here)
There have been a few “issues” when those in somewhat similar circumstances checked the African-American box on college or grad school applications.
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: December 14, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5908707)
There have been a few “issues” when those in somewhat similar circumstances checked the African-American box on college or grad school applications.

There was a big kerfuffle years back when a white South African immigrant did that at a medical school in Jersey. He was literally African, born in Africa, and a South African citizen before he immigrated.
   44. DCA Posted: December 14, 2019 at 02:11 PM (#5908709)
Brett Bochy wasn't just a nepotism case.

He had a career 3.02 ERA in the minors, with decent peripherals, and moved up quickly (age appropriate for league). Yes, his numbers tailed off from excellent to just good in AAA, but he appears to be a legit replacement-level bullpen arm, someone who deserves at least a cup of coffee.

A bit of luck to be on a pitching-poor roster and he might have carved out a modest career as a middle reliever.
   45. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: December 14, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5908719)
There have been a few “issues” when those in somewhat similar circumstances checked the African-American box on college or grad school applications.

Someone did that in my law school class (or at least that was the rumor). She was white and I believe South African by birth. She was not particularly bright and dropped out by December.

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