Congrats to Hamels. An excellent career that for many of us (me) flew under the radar. He was very good with the Cubs near the very end of his career.

Which got me thinking about "best (modern) pitchers to never win a CYA or make the HoF." I'm sure it's a very long list and Hamels probably doesn't quite crack the starting rotation but, no doubt because he's the topic, the first 4 guys who came to mind were also very good lefties:

Hamels, 2700 IP, 123 ERA+, 58 WAR
Finley, 3200 IP, 115 ERA+, 58 WAR
Langston, 3000 IP, 107 ERA+, 50 WAR
Pettitte, 3300 IP, 117 ERA+, 61 WAR (I won't be surprised if he's a future VC selection)

finally an obvious RHP: Tiant, 3500 IP, 114 ERA+, 66 WAR ... and Reuschel, 3500 IP, 114 ERA+, 68 WAR ... I'd never really thought about that Tiant-Reuschel comp before but it is a pretty good one.

Changing voting rules makes it easier for guys to get votes as time goes on but I wonder who the best pitchers to never get a vote are. Finley is close, he had only one 7th-place finish, just a single 3rd-place vote in 1990.

If there's ever a WS/LCS/AS MVP column/row in the grid, I am toast.

Another lefty in that list: Chuck Finley 3197 IP, 115 ERA+, 58 WAR

Not a lefty, but Schilling is probably the closest to winning a CYA and making the HoF without doing either. He had three CYA second place finishes and topped out at 71.1% for HoF.

Mark Buehrle only got CYA votes in one year, finishing fifth in 2005.

From clicking around on the career pitching WAR list, Tom Candiotti and Danny Darwin are the top two modern pitchers I found without any CYA votes.

Dave Stieb.

Kevin Brown

Very good pitcher. I will own being called petty because I enjoyed the Crew sticking it up his ass when he mocked Brewer fans thinking there was a rivalry between the Cubs and Brewers in 2018 and then winning the division over the Cubs that season.

"best (modern) pitchers to never win a CYA or make the HoF."
...
Changing voting rules makes it easier for guys to get votes as time goes on but I wonder who the best pitchers to never get a vote are.

And a counterpart question: Which pitchers did the best in the Cy Young voting, but aren't/won't likely be in the HOF?

Ignoring active guys and Clemens, there are five guys with multiple Cy Young awards who are not in the HOF:

Johan Santana (2.72 CYA shares)
Corey Kluber (2.60) - Still active?
Bret Saberhagen (2.20)
Tim Lincecum (1.53)
Denny McLain (1.42)

Santana has some backers, so he may get in eventually. Saberhagen wouldn't be a bad VC selection. McLain and Lincecum won't make it; Kluber won't unless he has a remarkable late-career renaissance.

Felix Hernandez (2.46) and David Price (2.11) also have more than 2 award shares, but only won the trophy once. King Felix "feels" like a HOFer to me but the numbers maybe don't back it up. Price is HOVG.

The guys who have more than 1 award share but never (yet) won a Cy Young Award, and are not in the HOF, are:

Adam Wainwright (1.98) - active
Gerrit Cole (1.90) - active
Chris Sale (1.88) - active
Curt Schilling (1.85) - special case
Dan Quisenberry (1.49) - 24.6 WAR
Jimmy Key (1.25) - 48.9 WAR
Dave Stewart (1.22) -26.5 WAR
Kevin Brown (1.21) - 67.8 WAR
Yu Darvish (1.07) - active

Another lefty in that list: Chuck Finley 3197 IP, 115 ERA+, 58 WAR

Cementing his claim as the most overlooked pitcher in history. :-)

EDIT: And yes Buehrle is an excellent (and shoulda been obvious) addition to the list.

Gerrit Cole (1.90) - active

The "yet" caveat was given, obviously, but Cole has a very good chance to pull down a Cy this year. (If he doesn't, on the other hand, he's very likely to pass Wainwright for most Cy shares without an award.)

So here's a question.
What is your starting 5 for your personal HOVG?
You cannot include guys you think should be in the HOF. So for me Brown and Buehrle would not be on this list as I think they should be in the HOF. I would be inclined to choose pitchers with a great peak(s) but not necessarily longevity. A guy like Stieb would be in my rotation.

What is your starting 5 for your personal HOVG?

How about an all-Angels rotation:

Langston, Finley, Tanana, John, Appier

Guys from my eras of fandom:

Dwight Gooden
Frank Viola
Brad Radke
Pre-Denver Mike Hampton
Tim Lincecum
Kluber

This is without looking at WAR, I doubt any of them have a legit HOF case. Doc and Timmy have brief stints as the best pitcher in baseball.

I love the idea of peak candidates for HOVG as my 5 would need to be guys who were at one time considered right near the top of MLB. Guys like Stieb, Saberhagen, Lincecum, Gooden, etc.

I love the idea of peak candidates for HOVG as my 5 would need to be guys who were at one time considered right near the top of MLB. Guys like Stieb, Saberhagen, Lincecum, Gooden, etc.

Brandon Webb. 3 excellent years, then CYA, runner up, runner up, out of baseball.

Another lefty in that list: Chuck Finley 3197 IP, 115 ERA+, 58 WAR

Cementing his claim as the most overlooked pitcher in history. :-)

but not by actress/1980s heavy metal music video fave Tawny Kitaen !

apparently she was good at first (ok, probably way beyond good), but she went too far....

Finley was a helluva good pitcher, but when I think of him, I think of Tawny smacking him upside the head with a stilleto. Unfortunate.

What is your starting 5 for your personal HOVG?

Mark Buehrle*, Roy Oswalt, Steve Rogers, Teddy Higuera, Brad Radke.

(I'm excluding two of my favorite pitchers, Johnny Cueto and Tim Wakefield, because I don't think they quite reach HOVG status by peak or career).

* He's very close and I absolutely hope he makes it, but I don't believe he belongs.

Picking from pitchers who haven't been mentioned yet (and going a bit older on some of them):

Jimmy Key
Larry Jackson
Bob Friend
Wilbur Cooper
Lon Warneke

Fernando
Saberhagen
Guidry
Blue
Appier


I am assuming Brown, Schilling, Cone, and El Tiante get in.

Surprised no one has mentioned David Cone or Tim Hudson yet.

Edit: Aaaand Cone gets mentioned right as I post it...

I would have liked to have seen Rick Reuschel pitch live. I see some on Youtube but not the same

I don't know if Cone gets in eventually, but he's moved to the top of my list of players most screwed by the strike(s). Previous candidates:

Tim Raines - Missed time to both the 1981 and 1994/1995 strikes. Would have come closer to 3000 hits (but not reached it), and topped 100 stolen bases in 1981, possibly breaking the single season record (before Rickey would have passed him the following year).

Harold Baines - Also missed time to both strikes. Might have reached 400 homers and 3000 hits otherwise.

Fred McGriff - Would have topped 500 homers without the 1994/1995 strike, and also would have had the big signature season his career was missing (he was on pace for around 48 homers and 130 RBI in 1994, rather than his actual career highs of 37 homers and 107 RBI).

But of course these 3 all got elected eventually anyway.

So that leaves Cone, who already has a good resume with 62.3 WAR/36.2 WAA, 5 All Star appearances, a CYA, a perfect game, led all of MLB in strikeouts 3 consecutive seasons, and won 5 World Series rings with a 2.12 ERA in 29 WS innings pitched. Now imagine he reaches the 200 win and 3000 IP milestones (instead of 194 and 2898), and has four 20-win seasons instead of two (he was on pace in both 1994 and 1995). That player starts to look pretty HOFey...

Tim Raines - Missed time to both the 1981 and 1994/1995 strikes. Would have come closer to 3000 hits (but not reached it), and topped 100 stolen bases in 1981, possibly breaking the single season record (before Rickey would have passed him the following year).

He also missed a month to collusion in 1987, in what might have been his best season. His first game was the Expos 22nd, and he went 4-5 with a walk, triple, and grand slam in the top of the 10th.

I've come around to the point of view that almost everyone who was a star for any real length of time will get into the hall of fame eventually. It might be long after their dead, but they'll all get in. This is something I've been coming around to gradually for a long time, but Oliva and (especially) Hodges getting elected really sealed the deal. The committees who handle the old guys change all the time, and to get someone in, they just need a favorable committee composition once. Whereas, to keep them out, the committee has to say "no" every single time.

So, although he's not going to get in easily, and may not while he's still alive, I think Cole Hamels will eventually get a plaque in Cooperstown. Also Cone, and Tiant, and Saberhagen, and Guidry, and Oswalt, and probably others mentioned in this thread. Future generations will scratch their heads and wonder what was wrong with voters in the mid-21st century, just like we do looking at Freddie Lindstrom and Chick Hafey. But that's how the hall works.

Surprised no one has mentioned David Cone or Tim Hudson yet.

IMO some of the names mentioned here are too good for HOVG. Cone, Saberhagen, and Stieb are all in the HoM, and Hudson and Appier get regular support there and are likely to get in relatively soon. Radke is an excellent HOVG choice - very good pitcher, but literally nobody thinks he's a HoF candidate.

Radke is an excellent HOVG choice - very good pitcher, but literally nobody thinks he's a HoF candidate.

The Brad Radke All Stars.

C - Earl Battey
1B - Kent Hrbek
2B - Chuck Knoblauch
SS - Roy Smalley or Eric Gagne. Pick'em
3B - Gary Gaetti
LF - Bob Allison
CF - Torii Hunter
RF - Tom Brunansky

SP - Brad Radke
SP - Jim Perry
SP - Frank Viola
SP - Kevin Tapani
SP - Camilo Pascual
CL - Rick Aguilera

It's not perfect. Hunter may be too good, and Brunansky might not be good enough. Clyde Milan would be a better CF choice, and could put Roy Sievers in LF and Allison in right, but I was trying to stick with Twins and not old timey Senators.

The Mark Grace All Stars:

C - Willson Contreras
1B - Mark Grace
2B - Ben Zobrist*
SS - Woody English
3B - Aramis Ramirez
LF - Riggs Stephenson (OK, some people think he's a HOFer, but they can be dismissed)
CF - Andy Pafko
RF - Bill Nicholson (I want to put Jason Hayward here, but the only reason he is not considered a future HOFer anymore is because of his Cubs tenure)

SP - Carlos Zambrano
SP - Kyle Hendricks
SP - Ken Holtzman
SP - Rick Sutcliffe
SP - Bob Rush
CL - Randy Myers

*I'm not happy about this choice. Zo was on the team only 4 years, was good in only 2 of them, and wasn't really a regular 2B. But there's no other good choices. Either they are HOFers or not all that good. Tons of pitchers. There might be better choices, but I wanted to pick the most recent.

SS - Roy Smalley or Eric Gagne. Pick'em

For shortstop? Definitely taking Smalley.

Whoops. Greg of course.

My HOVG rotation: Ron Guidry, Orel Hershiser, J.R. Richard, Dave McNally, Dennis Martinez.

Gid, Orel, and Martinez are fine, but I think you need a little bit better than the other 2 for all time. Plenty of better choices: David Wells, Kenny Rogers, Kevin Appier, Mark Langston, Roy Oswald, Bartolo Colon, Jerry Koosman, Frank Tanana...

Unless you want to restrict it to recent guys, I'd nominate Bucky Walters for the HOVG rotation.

Dennis Martinez
Dwight Gooden
Jose Rijo
John Tudor
Orel Hershiser/David Cone (only one spot for these two because on any given day I could be convinced that either belongs in the HOF)

Barry Zito.
And Mike Crudale.