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Tuesday, August 19, 2008

FOX Sports: Kriegel: The Big Apple has turned rotten

New York, New York, a helluva town.
The Bronx is up, but the Battery’s down
Back in ‘55 folded The Brooklyn Eagle
New York, New York, still stuck with Kriegel!

Everytime I go home to Manhattan, it feels less home-like. I suffer the symptoms of Tourrette’s Syndrome. You can find a Whole Foods, but not a Greek diner. It’s not my city anymore. The funky people — as insufferable as some of them might have been — have been banished in favor of the fund people. The resultant metropolis is Trump-like, which is to say, more crude and predictable and more like every other city with an Olive Garden and a Banana Republic.

Not all of these fund people are Yankee fans. Some of them are Knicks fans, too. The mythical aficionados of the city game have long since been replaced by sheep with BlackBerries. OK, maybe they deserve to be gouged. Then there are the Mets fans. The Mets are asking (and getting) only $495 for their best seat when Citi Field opens next year. After last year’s historic collapse, they are celebrated for a 79 percent increase.

Repoz Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:13 PM | 382 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, yankees

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   1. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:39 PM (#2908476)
Everytime I go home to Manhattan, it feels less home-like. I suffer the symptoms of Tourrette’s Syndrome. You can find a Whole Foods, but not a Greek diner.

I have my choice of 5 Greek diners within 6 blocks of where I live.

Not all of these fund people are Yankee fans. Some of them are Knicks fans, too. The mythical aficionados of the city game have long since been replaced by sheep with BlackBerries.

There's suddenly not as many as there used to be! (Fund people, I mean, Though possibly Yankee fans and Knick fans, too.)
   2. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:41 PM (#2908478)
You can find a Whole Foods, but not a Greek diner. It’s not my city anymore. The funky people — as insufferable as some of them might have been — have been banished in favor of the fund people. The resultant metropolis is Trump-like, which is to say, more crude and predictable and more like every other city with an Olive Garden and a Banana Republic.

GOD I hate crap like this. Whiny dumbass who doesn't have the wherewithal to actually go OUT OF THE WAY to find the things he says are lost, which they aren't. People who say you have to be rich to live in NYC really mean "you have to be rich to live like I wanna live" because trust me, I know plenty of people who are not rich who live here.

EDITED NOTE: I don't mind his criticisms of the sports team finances thing, but widening to the whole city is something I hear so often, scuh a tired criticism. Probably been written every year since 1900, too, if not earlier.
   3. faketeams Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:41 PM (#2908479)
He is dead-on correct with every criticism. I find myself routing for a financial disaster for any of the New York teams.

I guess you can argue for all but the Knicks who already had Isaiah inflicted upon it.
   4. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:51 PM (#2908485)
I have my choice of 5 Greek diners within 6 blocks of where I live.


Astoria?

Seriously, this kind of article is the laziest sort of "I can't think of anything to write, so I'll up my 'click-score' by insulting a major city then sit back and watch the fur fly" journalism I've seen in some time. Next up for Kriegel: "Palm Springs: Birthplace of Satan-Worshiping Puppy Head Biters and Goat Sacrificers?"
   5. Boots Day Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:54 PM (#2908487)
Greek diners aren't even that good. My theory is that the quality of a restaurant is inversely proportional to the number of food items it offers, and most of those Greek diners have menus as long as Moby Friggin' Dick.
   6. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:54 PM (#2908489)
Astoria?

UES. Why are so many diners in NYC run by Greeks? I've always been curious about that.
   7. Mr. Hotfoot Jackson (gef, talking mongoose) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:57 PM (#2908491)
Hey kids -- get off my asphalt!
   8. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 05:59 PM (#2908494)
Getting old sucks, don' it?
   9. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:05 PM (#2908496)
It's pretty ironic to say how great New York used to be, and then be shocked and pissed that lots of people want to live there, hence driving up the prices. Well DUH!!!

The only reason lots of "funky" people could afford to live in prime Manhattan areas in the 1960's, 70's, and '80's was that said areas were crime and drug ridden. Yeah, you could get a $300 apartment in the East Village in the '80s, but there was likely an open air drug market outside your door, and a few killings in the neighborhood every now and then, just to keep it interesting.
   10. SoSH U at work Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:05 PM (#2908497)
UES. Why are so many diners in NYC run by Greeks? I've always been curious about that.


It's not limited to New York City. Or hell, the state for that matter.

While I'm not going to defend this entire piece (which I haven't read), it sure seems to me that New York and its surrounding areas is far more chain-infested than it was 10-15 years ago. I always took a little pride in how my birthplace favored the locally owned eateries as opposed to the franchise-fascinated Midwest I now reside in, but that attitude seems to be at least losing a little of its stranglehold.
   11. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:08 PM (#2908499)
Yeah, you could get a $300 apartment in the East Village in the '80s, but there was likely an open air drug market outside your door, and a few killings in the neighborhood every now and then, just to keep it interesting.

Hellllllllooooo Alphabet City!
   12. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:12 PM (#2908502)
People who say you have to be rich to live in NYC really mean "you have to be rich to live like I wanna live" because trust me, I know plenty of people who are not rich who live here.

Of course there are, but tell me: What's the cheapest one bedroom, non-rent controlled apartment you can find today in Manhattan, including utilities? (The writer was talking about Manhattan, not the outer boroughs.) And how much of an income do you need to afford that apartment?

And what if you have, say, two small children and might need an extra bedroom?

The point isn't that poor people don't live in New York. It's that unless you've got a pretty damn good income, it's almost impossible to find an affordable place there, especially but not exclusively in Manhattan. The numbers speak for themselves. And while it's always been relatively expensive to live there, it's gotten exponentially worse over the past two decades.
   13. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:12 PM (#2908503)
Hellllllllooooo Alphabet City!

####, there getting a million bucks for apartments on Ave. C these days.

There are million dollar 1BRs on streets I literally wouldn't walk on at night in the late 1980's.

It's amazing what a little safety will do for real estate values ;-)
   14. Not Marv Cook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:15 PM (#2908505)
My theory is that the quality of a restaurant is inversely proportional to the number of food items it offers


Amen! Make 8-10 things, and make them the best in the neighborhood.
   15. Repoz Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:16 PM (#2908508)
####, there getting a million bucks for apartments on Ave. C these days.

Tell me about it...the drug buckets are now lowered with nylon and not rope!
   16. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:18 PM (#2908509)
I have my choice of 5 Greek diners within 6 blocks of where I live.


What does that make me if there's a Greek diner under my apartment, but a Whole Foods next door, and a choclatier named after an imaginary bald man across the street?

On the other hand, I AM one of the fund people, so I can't complain.
   17. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:19 PM (#2908510)
Of course there are, but tell me: What's the cheapest one bedroom, non-rent controlled apartment you can find today in Manhattan, including utilities? (The writer was talking about Manhattan, not the outer boroughs.) And how much of an income do you need to afford that apartment?

And what if you have, say, two small children and might need an extra bedroom?


Just checked the NY Times Real Estate, and it seems like in upper-Manhattan (Inwood, Wash. Hgts., Hamilton Hgts.) you can rent a 2BR, 1BA for about $1000-1100.
   18. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:19 PM (#2908512)
The point isn't that poor people don't live in New York. It's that unless you've got a pretty damn good income, it's almost impossible to find an affordable place there, especially but not exclusively in Manhattan. The numbers speak for themselves. And while it's always been relatively expensive to live there, it's gotten exponentially worse over the past two decades.

Sure, but there is still low rent housing in Manhattan and some of the walk-ups are still cheap. I have a friend who pays around $700 for a place in Hell's kitchen. I had a place for $750 on 45th street 4 years ago. Generally, though, you need $1500 a month minimum to live in Manhattan and the hipper parts of Brooklyn. I wonder where all the money for these apartments comes from. They keep building luxury towers on the UES where the minimum rent is around $3200 for a 1 bedroom and it blows my mind. But they keep filling 'em up. Nothing will make you feel like a failure faster than living in NYC.
   19. aleskel Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:20 PM (#2908513)
Greek diners aren't even that good

well, just like anything, there are good Greek diners and bad ones. The bad ones are greasy spoon ####-holes. The good ones are great for comfort food - want an omlette at 10:00 PM? Sure!

probably the most famous one in NY is Tom's just because of the Seinfeld connection, and it's pretty lousy. The best is the Neptune on Astoria Blvd. near the entrance to the Triborough.
   20. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:21 PM (#2908514)
What does that make me if there's a Greek diner under my apartment, but a Whole Foods next door, and a choclatier named after an imaginary bald man across the street?

Union Square?
   21. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:27 PM (#2908522)
I had a place for $750 on 45th street 4 years ago.


Same apartment probably rents for $1250 now. I was shocked at how much things went up in the two years I was gone.
   22. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:28 PM (#2908525)
The point isn't that poor people don't live in New York. It's that unless you've got a pretty damn good income, it's almost impossible to find an affordable place there, especially but not exclusively in Manhattan. The numbers speak for themselves. And while it's always been relatively expensive to live there, it's gotten exponentially worse over the past two decades.

This is CLOSE to true, but there are always exceptions, as you can see above.


What does that make me if there's a Greek diner under my apartment, but a Whole Foods next door, and a choclatier named after an imaginary bald man across the street?

I think Shooty's right, and if you can afford this location, you'd have to be a fund person. Although I can't really think of what Greek diner you're talking about.


The best is the Neptune on Astoria Blvd. near the entrance to the Triborough.

Maybe a 3-wood from my bedroom window, over the park.
   23. Conor Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:31 PM (#2908528)
The best is the Neptune on Astoria Blvd. near the entrance to the Triborough.

Maybe a 3-wood from my bedroom window, over the park.


When I saw this thread, I decided I was going to ask Lassus, since I knew he lived in Astoria, what he thought about Neptune.


It's very good.
   24. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:33 PM (#2908529)
I think Shooty's right, and if you can afford this location, you'd have to be a fund person. Although I can't really think of what Greek diner you're talking about.


Bon Vivant. And I already admitted being a fund person though.

The most ridiculous thing I've seen is the building on Central Park North with apartments starting at $1.1M. In a neighborhood with NOTHING in a six block radius other than a subway station.

On the bright side, real estate values might drop soon, if the layoffs in the iBank industry are any indication. Someone actually has to rent the apartments for them to keep renting them out at that high of a rate.
   25. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:34 PM (#2908530)
When I saw this thread, I decided I was going to ask Lassus, since I knew he lived in Astoria, what he thought about Neptune.

I think that I haven't eaten there even once over the course of the last year. Maybe I will tonight.


On the bright side, real estate values might drop soon, if the layoffs in the iBank industry are any indication.

Haven't people been thinking this since the Pleiscene about New York City, though, and it never happens? I'm not familiar enough with the real estate and financial history of the city, but I don't remember ever hearing about some magical era when the rents went DOWN.
   26. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:41 PM (#2908535)
On the bright side, real estate values might drop soon, if the layoffs in the iBank industry are any indication. Someone actually has to rent the apartments for them to keep renting them out at that high of a rate.

Wall Street is supposed to lose half of its fixed income jobs this year. I know for a fact a lot of big firms are slashing research jobs, too. It's bloody out there.
   27. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:43 PM (#2908537)
Now you may dismiss these complaints as the grumblings of an expatriate New Yorker.

Yes, I do.

And it strikes as a little arrogant to go on and on about "my city" when one has chosen to live 2,500 miles away in Santa Monica.
   28. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:53 PM (#2908545)
Yes. And it's a damned shame it hasn't happened yet, for Ny'ers. They badly need to diversify their economy and they won't do it until they absolutely have to. Being dominated by the moneychangers makes NY much crasser than it should be.

You're just mad you can't afford the hookers.
   29. bob gee Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:54 PM (#2908546)
hey, momofuku ko's supposed to have lunch soon. 16 courses, $160.

be interesting to see how it does; the dinner's real good, but reservations for it are quite challenging to get.

i know some derivatives traders who are profitable / do well (for years), would look elsewhere for better pay except that no one is hiring unless you're banging the ball out of the park. and that entails risk, which (finally!) the big firms are looking into restraining. as if those risk mgt. departments were just there for kicks...

at times like this, glad i trade on my own...

EDIT: and speaking of hookers...http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/08/secrets_of_a_hipster_hooker_01.php
   30. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:57 PM (#2908550)
"Old ballplayers never die" has nothing on "New York ain't what it used to be" in longevity. Every generation since Washington Irvin wrote about it when an attack of nostalgia comes. Probably the old Delancys and Livingstons wrote about it. If they could somehow find the records, I'm sure the Dutch talked about it.
   31. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 06:59 PM (#2908554)
I completely disagree with the premise of this article.

To state NYC has turned rotten implies that it wasn't at some previous time. Maybe while the Indians lived there it was OK, but once New Yorkers started showing up it was game over.
   32. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:00 PM (#2908556)
momofuku ko

Most overrated restaurant south of 14th Street.
   33. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:01 PM (#2908558)
at times like this, glad i trade on my own...

EDIT: and speaking of hookers...http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/08/secrets_of_a_hipster_hooker_01.php


$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?
   34. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:06 PM (#2908564)
$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?

That'll be $16.67.

Paid in advance, of course.
   35. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:07 PM (#2908566)
momofuku ko

Most overrated restaurant south of 14th Street.


Which one is this? I liked the small place on 1st and 12th until they got rid of their rice cakes. Those rice cakes kicked ass.
   36. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:08 PM (#2908569)
$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?

That'll be $16.67.

Paid in advance, of course.


Oh, I'll pay in advance all right! Heh heh heh!
   37. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:09 PM (#2908572)
$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?
Despite Lassus' claim, I'd guess that--unlike a Roger Clemens contract--this is one deal that can't be prorated for, shall we say, the "rest of the season," however long that season might be.
   38. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:10 PM (#2908573)
$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?

Murder her and take your money back. That's how it works in Grand Theft Auto.
   39. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#2908577)
The point isn't that poor people don't live in New York. It's that unless you've got a pretty damn good income, it's almost impossible to find an affordable place there, especially but not exclusively in Manhattan. The numbers speak for themselves. And while it's always been relatively expensive to live there, it's gotten exponentially worse over the past two decades.

This is CLOSE to true, but there are always exceptions, as you can see above
.

Exceptions noted, but then this sounds a lot like the people who cite a few hundred five and ten dollar nosebleed seats in Nationals Park as a way of pretending that baseball ticket prices aren't really all that bad after all. While overlooking the $150 views that were selling for a fifth of that just a year ago, and for 1/100th of that when there were still such things as unreserved seats behind home plate.

Look, New York obviously made some sort of a grand bargain, either intentionally or not. It got rid of most of the street crime in all but a relatively small number of neighborhoods, and in return it activated the sort of uber-demand among truly rich people that's made 90% of Manhattan and a huge swath of the outer boroughs completely out of reach for a family with median income. Add to this the wholescale evictions of rent control tenants and the subsequent skyrocketing of those buildings, and you see what you've got.

This makes it impossible for the great majority of people to live there, but in return it makes it far more pleasant for the handful of people for whom $2000 a month on up for an apartment is a mere drop in the bucket---and there are lots of people like that in New York.

And then for those who are really desperate to live in the city, but can't afford to, there's always good old shared space and debt. This tends to work better if you're single and childless and have prospects of something better before long.

Whether all this is good or bad obviously depends on your view of what constitutes a great city, but mainly it depends on your income. It's actually quite analogous to what's happened to baseball over the past generation. Everything's run on the auction model now, and there are fewer and fewer protective buffers remaining that reflect any other set of values other than what the market will bear.
   40. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:14 PM (#2908578)
Murder her and get your money back. That's how it works in Grand Theft Auto.
And this is the man I'm meeting to get drinks and watch the Yankee game with. Fantastic.
   41. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:15 PM (#2908580)
I was just looking at the momofuku ko place, and while I've walked by it a million times, I can tell I don't want to eat there just from the website. And yes. I'm judging a book by the cover, it could be great.

My favorite expensive restaurant in the city is Dylan Prime, on Laight, west side. Best steaks I've ever had, very good wine. Haven't been OFTEN, maybe 4 times in the past 5 years, but worth every cent.
   42. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:16 PM (#2908584)
they got rid of their rice cakes.

They got rid of the only real food on their menu? Obviously I'm not very keen to keep up with the development of that place since they only had pseudo-Asian fake food. Without their last redeeming quality, I'm fully in favor of nuclear destruction.
   43. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:17 PM (#2908585)
(Primey for #36!)

I mean, really...do they pro-rate or something...?
   44. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:20 PM (#2908594)
My favorite expensive restaurant in the city is Dylan Prime downtown on Laight. Best steaks I've ever had. Haven't been OFTEN, maybe 4 times in the past 5 years, but worth every cent.

My favorite fancy places are Hangawi, which is a vegan Korean place in little Korea, and this cheese restaurant near Grand Central which I think is called Artisanal because I like cheese.
   45. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:22 PM (#2908597)
They got rid of the only real food on their menu? Obviously I'm not very keen to keep up with the development of that place since they only had pseudo-Asian fake food. Without their last redeeming quality, I'm fully in favor of nuclear destruction.

Yep. I used to go their for the shitaki buns and the rice cakes. Last time I went I had the ramen but it tasted like feet and no more rice cakes. So...I'm done with them.
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:27 PM (#2908604)
and this cheese restaurant near Grand Central which I think is called Artisanal because I like cheese.


Wow, you must really like cheese if the owners let you name their restaurant.
   47. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:28 PM (#2908605)
Nothing beat the souvlaki guy under the umbrella on 53rd & 5th back in '85...
   48. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:31 PM (#2908612)
Wow, you must really like cheese if the owners let you name their restaurant.

See, sometimes it's fun not to use commas.

But, yeah, I really like cheese.
   49. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:33 PM (#2908617)
$2000 an hour? What if you only need 30 seconds?


She's a great conversationalist too.
   50. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2908625)
Not being knowledgeable about prostitution, I've always wondered if $2,000 an hour means that if you "reload" within the hour, you get another shot at the apple, so to speak.....
   51. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:43 PM (#2908627)
Funny, I find that living with a roomate in a middle class part of Brooklyn (Sunset Park on 5th and 41st) is more than doable on my paltry $33,000 year salary. Of course I'm 25 and single, but I still manage to hit up shows, do the culture things from time to time, etc.

Yea, if you want to live the nicer parts of NYC, and god knows that in 2008 that means most of Manhattan and large parts of Brooklyn and Queens now as well -- then you best come with a nice salary north of $60,000 a year for a single guy or gal.

But it's foolish to say you can't enjoy NYC without being rich. I do it every day and so do most of my friends.
   52. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:51 PM (#2908632)
Not being knowledgeable about prostitution, I've always wondered if $2,000 an hour means that if you "reload" within the hour, you get another shot at the apple, so to speak.....
Speaking from the experience I've gained in my professional capacity, rather than any personal knowledge of the situation, this tends to depend on the level of prostitute you are patronizing. Generally the high end sorts are on an hourly level, whereas the lower you go on the scale the more likely you are to pay-per-pop
   53. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: August 19, 2008 at 07:56 PM (#2908634)
Which one is this? I liked the small place on 1st and 12th until they got rid of their rice cakes. Those rice cakes kicked ass.


I think you mean Momofuku Saam bar on 13th and 2nd, which is significantly more reasonable. I'm not a fan of the Momofuku restaurants, but that probably has something to do with my irrational fear of Korean food and similar flavors. It all tastes like rotting cabbage to me.

The original point I was making was that "old" New York is still around, and you don't even need to look for it. Yes, chains have encroached, but even in the trendy areas you just need to walk down a side street to find old-school places that have been locally owned for 30 years. The people who set the rents know that the apartment rent will go down if they don't keep some of the old-school tenants around downstairs, and the landlords are making their money off the apartments, not the retail space.

Best 'expensive' restaurant, bang for buck wise, is still Sakagura in my mind. Japanese small plates - getting about 5 small plates and a bottle of sake per person will run you about $100 per, including tax and tip, which isn't really ridiculous by NYC standards. You see a lot more of this kind of authentic Japanese cooking these days, but it's a very good izakaya, even by Japanese standards. Once you get into the realm of the really expensive restaurants, Le Bernadin is still the best, although I have yet to find a restaurant in NYC that I think is better than Citronelle in DC.
   54. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:00 PM (#2908637)
But it's foolish to say you can't enjoy NYC without being rich. I do it every day and so do most of my friends.

Agreed, even with student loans and a lousy job, I've managed to enjoy myself quite a bit.

Generally the high end sorts are on an hourly level, whereas the lower you go on the scale the more likely you are to pay-per-pop

Wow, you almost make the high end ones sound like a bargain.
   55. bob gee Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:07 PM (#2908642)
ko overrated? could be. but i think it's really good food...if you want to talk overrated in that area, i think artichoke pizza would qualify.

i absolutely love momo ssam, like noodle bar (which used to be on 12th/1st, i think? and is now a few doors up) and think ko rocks. i wish the chairs had backs on them, and obviously you're paying a bit for at ko...but i thought my meal was top notch.
   56. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:09 PM (#2908643)
I like to say New York is now the Wal-Mart of counter-culture.

I've lived somewhat nearby Manhattan, 30 miles, going on 5 years now, I have to say there are quite a few elements in NYC that don't see very original to me yet are sold as ground breaking. I have little experience with Manhattan of what it "used to be like" but I can only imagine there was more grit and grime and interesting culture and original thought than what is there now. I don't think there is a single part of Manhattan that is not upscale these days--only a slight exaggeration.

A friend of mine visited for the first time, said "I see why girls love it here, it is like a mall, there is shopping and food everywhere."
   57. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:12 PM (#2908646)
Wow, you almost make the high end ones sound like a bargain.
Just like cell phones, whether you want a flat rate or pay-as-you-go, it all depends on how frequently you plan to use the service
   58. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:13 PM (#2908648)
My theory is that the quality of a restaurant is inversely proportional to the number of food items it offers



Amen! Make 8-10 things, and make them the best in the neighborhood.


This is true of football playbooks too. The NFL fails to get this year over year.
   59. Fred C. Dobbs Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:14 PM (#2908650)
I've lived somewhat nearby Manhattan, 30 miles, going on 5 years now, I have to say there are quite a few elements in NYC that don't see very original to me yet are sold as ground breaking. I have little experience with Manhattan of what it "used to be like" but I can only imagine there was more grit and grime and interesting culture and original thought than what is there now.


I think you could say the same about almost every major American city, unfortunately.
   60. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:22 PM (#2908656)
I think you could say the same about almost every major American city, unfortunately.

How true, the country was much better when the cities were infested with crime.
   61. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#2908659)
and this cheese restaurant near Grand Central which I think is called Artisanal because I like cheese.


I think it is either in the ground floor of the Empire St bld, or across the street from there. Unique place. I by no means have been to enough NYC restaurants to offer much, but Rayuela and Tabla are both excellent.
   62. Fred C. Dobbs Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#2908660)
Uh, did I say that? I was referring to recycled culture in general.
   63. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#2908661)
How true, the country was much better when the cities were infested with crime.

"Infested" is too pejorative, too loaded. Substitute "gifted" and you get a better sense of the thing.
   64. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:25 PM (#2908662)
A friend of mine visited for the first time, said "I see why girls love it here, it is like a mall, there is shopping and food everywhere."

Man, do I get tired of hearing this. Things that are great about New York:

Jazz venues
Music in general
Sports bars
Art
Places to drink single malt scotch
Theater (not just broadway, either, but theaters everywhere putting on plays of every kind you can imagine)
Movies of every kind
Food of every kind and quality

If you come to NYC, and you can't find something interesting, then that's on you. It's not that NYC has this stuff and other cities don't, it's that NYC has this stuff in volume. You can get lost in it if you want. Is it like it was during some Golden Age when everything about the city was cool and original? Maybe not, I don't know. I live here now and there's plenty going on.
   65. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:29 PM (#2908669)
I can only imagine there was more grit and grime and interesting culture and original thought than what is there now.


Or how about less Banana Republic, less suburban white kids from Ohio who just finished, or skipped college, living off parents money. I have noticed that Manhattan has a very large population of young kids (it is growing?), 17-24 either not working, partying, working a job in fashion or media that pays $20,000, being bankrolled by their parents.

Just interesting.
   66. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:29 PM (#2908670)
Theater (not just broadway, either, but theaters everywhere putting on plays of every kind you can imagine)

Shooty, why do you hate America?



But seriously, that list: sports bars? Really? You can find those anywhere.
   67. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:33 PM (#2908680)
But seriously, that list: sports bars? Really? You can find those anywhere.

Yeah, and god forgive me for this, but sports bars filled with New York sports fans are a lot of fun. New Yorkers are nuts, man.
   68. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:33 PM (#2908683)
Uh, did I say that? I was referring to recycled culture in general.


That's actually where I was going with my comment too. The culture has gotten a bit sterile. And I don't mean clean. Just lacking originality. The cow dung virgin Mary was utterly unoriginal and classless. I had that idea in the 2nd grade. No talent in that.
   69. Loren F. Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:38 PM (#2908691)
I'm glad that 25-year-olds living in Brooklyn find New York enjoyable. I have news for you: In 2013 you will be living in New Jersey, or in another part of the country.

I'm a middle-class man, my wife also works, and we have a daughter, and we live in Manhattan. And it is not easy. It is expensive and increasingly a hassle. Day care center? No room. Classes for the child? Already filled up. Buy a larger coop apartment? Not affordable. Move to a cheaper area uptown? Not that cheap, and the schools suck (not just mediocre, which we could deal with, but suck). Move to Brooklyn? Well, that's still a rip-off (try $650K for a two-bedroom apartment in Windsor Terrace) but the commute would cut into the limited time we have with our child. Increasingly, everyone we meet at the local playground -- who isn't a nanny -- is a stay-at-home mom whose husband is an investment banker (and never around). Look, I grew up in New York, I love the city, and we do enjoy New York, old films, museums, go to the opera every once in a while, see the occasional free concert in Central Park, etc. But to this lifelong New Yorker, the city indeed seems to have become too much of a Trumpified, chain-store-laden playground for the wealthy. We will probably leave NYC within the next three years.

I'm sorry to sound so negative, but it's a combination of not having a good week and feeling the need to provide a reality check.
   70. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:39 PM (#2908692)
If you come to NYC, and you can't find something interesting, then that's on you.


No doubt. This is true of many cities. NYC has the benefit have having such a media profile, kids in Kansas know where to go for a lot of NYC high-culture. However there are so many cities that also have hi-culture but lack the constant media pounding NYC gets, thus get tagged with inaccurate reputations.

I think a lot of American cities now have most elements of this list. Perhaps NYC is getting less special, in a way. Even Yankee Stadium will be history in 2 months.
Jazz venues
Music in general
Sports bars
Art
Places to drink single malt scotch
Theater (not just broadway, either, but theaters everywhere putting on plays of every kind you can imagine)
Movies of every kind
Food of every kind and quality
   71. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:42 PM (#2908697)
I'm glad that 25-year-olds living in Brooklyn find New York enjoyable. I have news for you: In 2013 you will be living in New Jersey, or in another part of the country.

23, thank you! And I'll be living in Poughkeepsie in two months. But I'm glad I got it in while I could.
   72. BeanoCook Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:44 PM (#2908701)
But to this lifelong New Yorker, the city indeed seems to have become too much of a Trumpified, chain-store-laden playground for the wealthy. We will probably leave NYC within the next three years


I don't there is any question NYC is now a playground for the internationally wealthy. About the only way to overcome so many of the low quality of life issues that exist in New York, is with raw cash. And a lot of it. For a rich person, the quality of life in NYC is unrivaled. For a middle class person, you are living in a manner that poor people experience in other parts of the country. Can you imagine 2 teachers living in New York city? Them compare those 2 teachers living in Atlanta.
   73. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:46 PM (#2908705)
Wash. DC

DC sucks. A lot.
   74. Joey B. is counting the days to Trea Turner Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:47 PM (#2908706)
How true, the country was much better when the cities were infested with crime.

Don't worry, another ten years or so of unchecked illegal immigration and our cities will be great once again.
   75. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:48 PM (#2908707)
I love BTF because I learn about things I've never heard of. Until a few minutes ago, I had never envisioned the concept of a Greek diner...
   76. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:50 PM (#2908710)
Don't worry, another ten years or so of unchecked illegal immigration and our cities will be great once again.
Woo-hoo! Work for life!
   77. RJ in TO Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:50 PM (#2908712)
Places (besides NY) where you can find those same things (and I'm speaking just from experience. I haven't spent time in every American metropolis):

Boston
Chicago
LA
Wash. DC
SF
Atlanta


And, just across the border, there's Toronto too.
   78. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:50 PM (#2908713)
I don't there is any question NYC is now a playground for the internationally wealthy. About the only way to overcome so many of the low quality of life issues that exist in New York, is with raw cash. And a lot of it.

I am not wealthy. Not even close. I have maybe a couple of wealthy friends. The rest of us get along fine.

Places (besides NY) where you can find those same things (and I'm speaking just from experience. I haven't spent time in every American metropolis):

Every city of decent size in America has these things, just not the variety in which NYC can offer them in as dense a location as NYC can offer them.
   79. The Good Face Posted: August 19, 2008 at 08:55 PM (#2908720)
Until a few minutes ago, I had never evisioned the concept of a Greek diner...


Speaking as someone who's lived the past 25 years within a 50 mile radius of NYC, I was unaware there was any other kind.
   80. bob gee Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:03 PM (#2908729)
hey popup, we'll be neighbors. cheers. oh, renegades games often are sold out on the weekends, and i think the ballplayers still have foster families they stay with.

chicago is pretty close to nyc, but with a much more affordable cost of living.

also, part of nyc's appeal is the great public transportation system. atlanta and l.a. don't hold a candle.


the only places that are affordable if you're not in a high $ industry tends to be further out in brooklyn, or the 7 line in queens. but then you run into a poor school system along the (closer) part of that line, which doesn't even out.

there's
   81. OCD SS Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:05 PM (#2908730)
The cow dung virgin Mary was utterly unoriginal and classless. I had that idea in the 2nd grade. No talent in that.


Spoken like someone who knows jack-sh!t about art beyond "I know what I like and I learned it by watching Bob Ross." Art is not about every idea being something that has never been imagined before. Just having an idea is useless unless you actually make the thing.

For the record, Chris olifi's painting featured elephant dung (at least be accurate), and most people wouldn't have even know what it was (they looked like lacquered rocks) if it wasn't turned into such a big thing. No one got upset about about all the magazine clippings of black c0cks cut out of porno rags that were collaged into some of his other work on view...

I don't think he's a particularly good painter, and I hate that I wind up having to defend him when morons use him to paint the rest of the art world with a broad brush.

Edit: and just to be clear, no other city comes close to matching NY museums in the USA. LA is a distant second.
   82. Rocco's Not-so Malfunctioning Mitochondria Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:07 PM (#2908736)
I love BTF because I learn about things I've never heard of. Until a few minutes ago, I had never evisioned the concept of a Greek diner...


You've never seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding? I grew up near Tampa though, where the local diner was Denny's.

Yes, you need a lot of money to live well in New York these days. I just moved from DC, make a significant amount more a year, and have significantly less take-home cash after paying taxes and bills. But as was mentioned elsewhere, DC sucks.
   83. jmurph Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:08 PM (#2908737)
DC sucks. A lot.


I mostly agree with that. It does except for the days it doesn't. I'll tell you this, though: our apartments are just as expensive, but we have less cool stuff!

Wait...
   84. bumpis hound Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:10 PM (#2908741)
Generally the high end sorts are on an hourly level, whereas the lower you go on the scale the more likely you are to pay-per-pop

As has been mentioned before, the money you spend is for them to *leave* when all is said and done.
   85. Loren F. Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:10 PM (#2908744)
and just to be clear, no other city comes close to matching NY museums in the USA. LA is a distant second.

I don't know enough beyond NYC museums to comment much, but I will say that LA's Getty museum impressed the hell out of me when I visited. Not that this contradicts ocd...
   86. jmurph Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:12 PM (#2908747)
Atlanta


Also, I should point out that Atlanta is my idea of hell. When I go to hell I will be forced to live somewhere like Powder Springs and commute in an SUV every day to downtown Atlanta and eat at TGI Friday's (which is the finest restaurant Atlanta has to offer) and visit Civil War battlefields on the weekends to read about "The War of Northern Aggression." Sweet god I don't like Atlanta.
   87. JC in DC Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:12 PM (#2908748)
DC doesn't suck; it's awesome. I love NYC, and grant it's the greatest American city, but DC is very cool, has FREE museums, and an improving food scene.

Boston's a little shittown, btw, and doesn't belong in the NYC, DC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco conversation.

Objective and verifiably accurate ranking of US cities:

NYC
Chicago
SF
DC
LA
   88. Dr. Vaux Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:12 PM (#2908749)
There are a lot of people here who don't think of themselves as wealthy, but other people do think of them as wealthy. That's understandable, of course, since one tends to spend as much as one makes. And D.C. does definitely suck, except for a couple of things. On the other hand, many places just plain . . . suck.
   89. Loren F. Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:12 PM (#2908750)
And I didn't RTFA, but NY is still more than a bunch of Olive Gardens. Very few cities have the volume of very good, affordable restaurants that NYC has.
   90. rr Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:14 PM (#2908752)
Boston's a little shittown, btw, and doesn't belong in the NYC, DC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco conversation.


Can I re-post this in Sox Therapy? And put your name with it?
   91. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:15 PM (#2908755)
DC doesn't suck; it's awesome. I love NYC, and grant it's the greatest American city, but DC is very cool, has FREE museums, and an improving food scene.
Having spent a lot of time in DC, I gotta side more with the "DC sucks" side of things. It's still not really a place people live in. There's all the government workers who filter in-and-out every day, and tourists, but that means huge portions of it are madly overrun when offices/museums are open and totally deserted the rest of the time.

The Metro isn't bad, but it doens't run to the only areas (Adams Morgan and Georgetown) with a reasonably decent nightlife. DC could be something, but it's too much of a government town.
   92. JC in DC Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:16 PM (#2908756)
Can I re-post this in Sox Therapy? And put your name with it?


Hmm... interested in signing on as a co-author?

I love Boston. Quaint little village is all. Neat Revolutionary stuff.
   93. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:17 PM (#2908759)
You've never seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding?


Nope, I never have. I've never been within a hundred miles of NYC, so I had no idea of the huge number of Greek diners. I did a search, and the articles I found fascinated me...
   94. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:18 PM (#2908761)
But to this lifelong New Yorker, the city indeed seems to have become too much of a Trumpified, chain-store-laden playground for the wealthy. We will probably leave NYC within the next three years


I don't there is any question NYC is now a playground for the internationally wealthy. About the only way to overcome so many of the low quality of life issues that exist in New York, is with raw cash. And a lot of it. For a rich person, the quality of life in NYC is unrivaled. For a middle class person, you are living in a manner that poor people experience in other parts of the country. Can you imagine 2 teachers living in New York city? Them compare those 2 teachers living in Atlanta.

That's about it. Though for all my kvetching, I'd rather be a fire hydrant in New York than the King of Atlanta.

I am not wealthy. Not even close. I have maybe a couple of wealthy friends. The rest of us get along fine


While I can't dispute your subjective feelings on the matter, "not wealthy" and "get along fine" are pretty vague terms that don't really mean very much. What's your family income, how big is your family, how much money do you have stashed away, what do you pay for rent, and where do you live? I'm not asking this to be cute or nosy, but only to get a better idea of the specifics of what you're saying. It's pretty common that in forums like this, just like in Gallup interviews or John McCain speeches, nobody seems to be "rich" (McCain defines "rich" as having a $5 million income) or "wealthy." It's like admitting to halitosis.
   95. jmurph Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:18 PM (#2908764)
DC could be something, but it's too much of a government town.


In my experience this is mostly a myth. I realize that, on paper, a lot of people who live here work for/with the Federal government, but I honestly don't know any of them. I think they mostly live in Virginia or Capitol Hill. The rest of the city is just like anywhere else- more non-profits, of course, but that's about it.
   96. JC in DC Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:18 PM (#2908765)
Having spent a lot of time in DC, I gotta side more with the "DC sucks" side of things. It's still not really a place people live in. There's all the government workers who filter in-and-out every day, and tourists, but that means huge portions of it are madly overrun when offices/museums are open and totally deserted the rest of the time.

The Metro isn't bad, but it doens't run to the only areas (Adams Morgan and Georgetown) with a reasonably nightlife. DC could be something, but it's too much of a government town.


People say this, but it's not true. Generations of families have been living in G'town and other parts of Washington. The real turnover's in Arlington and the VA suburbs (MD to a lesser extent). It's never really "madly overrun", not remotely like NYC is. And, as I said, the food is good, there's great ethnic areas (Adams Morgan, for instance).
   97. Fred C. Dobbs Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:24 PM (#2908776)
Yes Kevin, because a city's worth is measured by the success of it's sports teams which are comprised almost entirely of people not originally from that city.
   98. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:27 PM (#2908780)
EDIT: Funny how that "little shittown" is kicking your tail in all the major sports.


This is why I love the most recent Superbowl's result. It makes a statement like this wrong.
   99. Lassus Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:36 PM (#2908790)
For a rich person, the quality of life in NYC is unrivaled. For a middle class person, you are living in a manner that poor people experience in other parts of the country.

No.
   100. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: August 19, 2008 at 09:37 PM (#2908791)
DC sucks. A lot.


I mostly agree with that. It does except for the days it doesn't. I'll tell you this, though: our apartments are just as expensive, but we have less cool stuff!

DC's not that bad, but though it's not as unaffordable as New York, it's still pretty rough if you want to live anywhere near the city, other than in the shooting galleries.

Some of this (obviously not all) has to do with the gradual repeal of rent control. My wife and I were living in a fairly big 2-bedroom apartment on Mintwood Place overlooking Kalorama Park, and when we bought a house in Kensington in late 1991 our last rent check was $546. By early 2001 that same apartment was already $2000, and I'd hate to know what it is today---probably well over $2500. And while it was a good deal at $546, even at $2000 it's insanely overpriced by any other standard than What The Market Will Bear.

A former employee of my book shop whom I keep up with has lived in Columbia Heights since he moved to DC in 1989. He's been booted from one apartment to another when the houses were sold and re-converted to a single family use, and his rent has gone from $150 to nearly $900. This is typical of what has happened all over large parts of DC. There are entire neighborhoods east of Rock Creek Park that in the past 10 years have gone from afforable to ridiculous without even pausing for breath at "expensive."

And harsh as it sounds, even though we're homeowners I think that the collapse of the housing market is on balance a very good thing. I only hope it drops another 25% or so and gives a few working and middle class people a chance to buy a place without having to put half their income into it.
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