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Sunday, February 21, 2021

Full Transcript of Mariners President Kevin Mather’s Remarks to Bellevue Breakfast Rotary Club

Some very candid remarks from the Mariners president on everything from free agents, when we will see fans, minor league shuffling, and paying for interpreters.

Kyle Seager, this is probably his last season as a Mariner. He will, and I’ve already told him, he’ll be a Mariners Hall of Famer when he’s done playing. Last year he seemed to find the Fountain of Youth, had a fantastic year, and we expect the same in 2021…..

On the minor league side, Jarred Kelenic, we’ve been talking about him for a year and a half now. He’ll be in left field in April. He’s a 21-year-old player who, um, is quite confident. We offered him a long-term deal, six-year deal for substantial money with options to go farther. After pondering it for several days and talking to the union, he’s turned us down and in his words, he’s going to bet on himself. He thinks after six years, he’ll be such a star player that the 7th, 8th, 9th year options will be under value. He might be right, he might be right, we offered and he turned us down.

RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 21, 2021 at 04:18 PM | 227 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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101. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 12:25 PM (#6006528)

Wasn't Pharoah Sanders from Little Rock? Hmmmm ... let me go looking.

EDIT: Yep. But his given name was Farrell, so probably it was pronounced Farroh. That just sounds all sorts of wrong to me.

Must investigate further. Maybe the "-oah" misspelling affected the pronunciation?

102. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 12:33 PM (#6006529)

Nope -- appears to be basically "Farrell" with a different ending. I've been living, or perhaps more apropos pronouncing, a lie -- one of a multitude, I have no doubt, especially where pronunciation is concerned -- for some 6 decades now.

103. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: February 24, 2021 at 01:41 PM (#6006540)

Does anyone OTHER than me say "whore-er"? A long first "O?

I do. "Horror" is pronounced "whore-er" or, if I'm consciously thinking about it, I might make an effort to make it sound like "whore-or", but that can be awkward.

That would make it difficult to distinguish. Is the "a" in "happy" the same as the one in "hairy" to you?

Yes

I don't even know how to process this. Those vowel sounds are nothing alike for me.

104. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: February 24, 2021 at 01:48 PM (#6006544)

Another one that I've noticed is the difference in the way people pronounce "because." One of my good friends grew up in St. Louis but has been out here in SoCal for about 20 years now. One of the few words we pronounce differently is "because." He says "bee-cozz," similar to how you'd pronounce it if you put the words "be" and "cause" together. That seems right to me, even though the common pronunciation out here is "bee-cuzz." I've tried to adopt his pronunciation, but I feel inauthentic and pretentious whenever I do, so I've stuck with the lazy California version. I'm curious how other parts of the country pronounce it.

105. Lassus Posted: February 24, 2021 at 01:55 PM (#6006548)

I do. "Horror" is pronounced "whore-er" or, if I'm consciously thinking about it, I might make an effort to make it sound like "whore-or", but that can be awkward.

I think I almost certainly do the latter. It's certainly the way I think of it.

I don't even know how to process this. Those vowel sounds are nothing alike for me.

Likewise.

106. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: February 24, 2021 at 04:11 PM (#6006593)

Man, this thread is weird. I feel ridiculous trying to make the words sound different.

This is probably linked in the Reddit thread but this guy tries to explain it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i9rMU8aL-U

107. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 06:21 PM (#6006619)

Then how do you guys pronounce "hairy"? Hay-ree? Heh-ree? How bizarre.

Or is "happy" ... I dunno ... "hoppy" or "heppy" or "hoopy" or something equally strange?

Jesus, Yankees are weird.

108. SoSH U at work Posted: February 24, 2021 at 06:35 PM (#6006624)

Then how do you guys pronounce "hairy"?

We pronounce hairy the way you pronounce all of these words.

It's the other "a" words that you can't either pronounce or, seemingly, identify.

Howie's key in 76 covers it pretty well.

Or is "happy" ... I dunno ... "hoppy" or "heppy" or "hoopy" or something equally strange?

Happy is happy. Hoppy, heppy and hoopy would be "o" as in cot, "e" as in gem and "o" as in cool.

Happy has the "a" sound you would find in cat, although it sounds like you think the "a" you find in cat is no different than the "a" you find in mail, so I'm not sure how helpful that is.

109. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 24, 2021 at 07:58 PM (#6006641)

gef: Farrow sanders does it

110. Howie Menckel Posted: February 24, 2021 at 09:11 PM (#6006654)

my vote is for "hawr-ible" result and also "hahr-er" movie, as each strikes me as superior to "hahr-ible" and "whore....er...r"

but then, I grew up in the hamlet of tap-PAN, which is just south of the TAP-pan Zee Bridge*, so linguistic flexibility is in my nature, I suppose.

:)

* - it's now officially named after a politician, but nobody cares.

111. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 09:30 PM (#6006658)

it sounds like you think the "a" you find in cat is no different than the "a" you find in mail, so I'm not sure how helpful that is.

Nah. That would be "mal-," as in "maladjusted." The "a" in "mail" is ... hmmm. I guess I pronounce it the way I do "Mel." I guess I add a bit of long "a" to "male," though.

112. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 09:35 PM (#6006660)

Howie's key in 76 covers it pretty well.

Except that I have no problem with his examples, other than "Merry" & "Mary" sounding the same for me ... though I have no problem with the idea modifying the "a" in "Mary" to echo his examples of "fairy," "rare," etc. I'm just too lazy to do so, & besides I'm pretty sure I know only one Mary anyway.

113. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 24, 2021 at 09:40 PM (#6006661)

Speaking not of pronunciations but rather word usage, a few days ago I came across the NY use of "on line" instead of "in line" somewhere, & it just struck me as bizarre. Because it is.

114. Howie Menckel Posted: February 24, 2021 at 10:45 PM (#6006663)

a few days ago I came across the NY use of "on line" instead of "in line" somewhere, & it just struck me as bizarre. Because it is.

now we're wending back to baseball (!).

in my experience, anyway, opponents of the DH and those who use "on line" know - and don't care - that a majority has a different vantage point.

but DH backers and "in line" lovers - for whatever reason, they tend to recoil at those who don't yield to the orthodoxy. it's not just different, for them - it's "bizarre."

:)

115. SoSH U at work Posted: February 24, 2021 at 10:53 PM (#6006664)

There's nothing bizarre about on line. It's consistent with other definitions of "on."

It's also one of the many examples of words or phrases or, even in some cases, pronunciations, where the fact that I grew up in the Northeast but have spent the past 35 years in the Midwest means I could use either and not give it a moment's thought.

116. Mayor Blomberg Posted: February 24, 2021 at 11:00 PM (#6006665)

NY use of "on line" [/quote
I still use it. In 20+ years, I haven't adjusted to the local use of "over" in "I want to write my essay over over this topic."

117. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 25, 2021 at 08:50 AM (#6006679)

In 20+ years, I haven't adjusted to the local use of "over" in "I want to write my essay over over this topic.

Never encountered that one. Also bizarre.

118. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 25, 2021 at 08:58 AM (#6006680)

There's nothing bizarre about on line. It's consistent with other definitions of "on."

How so? I'm just not seeing it, though the fact that I'm not very awake certainly isn't helping. When I think of "in line" I envision people standing one behind the other, in which setting I think the only way "on line" would be apposite would be if a physical line were drawn on the ground & they were making sure they adhered to it. Or something.

(The fact that "online" has its own, very different meaning doesn't help, I'm sure.)

Probably I'm overlooking something obvious, though. See also: caffeine, need for more.

119. SoSH U at work Posted: February 25, 2021 at 09:02 AM (#6006682)

How so?

Not all "ons" relate to physically being atop something. On hold. On the record. On the increase. On schedule. On tour.

You think it's bizarre because you grew up using in line (which is, of course, a thoroughly accurate way of phrasing it), and when you heard "on line" it grates. Moreover, I suspect you can't help comparing its usage to in line, as if it is being used instead of it, rather than indepdendent of that usage.

But given the myriad other uses of "on," it's really not bizarre.

120. Nasty Nate Posted: February 25, 2021 at 09:16 AM (#6006683)

Not all "ons" relate to physically being atop something. On hold. On the record. On the increase. On schedule. On tour.

You think it's bizarre because you grew up using in line (which is, of course, a thoroughly accurate way of phrasing it), and when you heard "on line" it grates. Moreover, I suspect you can't help comparing its usage to in line, as if it is being used instead of it, rather than indepdendent of that usage.

But given the myriad other uses of "on," it's really not bizarre.

You are correct but I am going to half-pretend that you are not!

Part of why it grates is that a line is something you can often see or "touch." A group of people is physically there on the sidewalk making the general shape of a line. It is tangible (sometimes), and so for tangible things we often use more precise physical descriptors. EG, The offensive players on the field are in a huddle. The schoolchildren were arranged in a semi-circle at recess, etc. Schedules, committees, hold, are more ethereal concepts.

Of course, I'm just making post-hoc justifications for why I dislike "on line."

121. . . . . . . Posted: February 25, 2021 at 09:37 AM (#6006686)

As a born and bred multigenerational NYCer, I think “on line” has a different meaning than “in line”.

You would get “on” line - as in, you go to the back of it and become the last person. It’s akin to going on top of a pile.

But once you’re halfway through the queue (see what I did there?) youre “in” line.

In other words I would ask my wife to get ON line for tickets but if I was running late I would call to ask her if she were IN line already.

122. Nasty Nate Posted: February 25, 2021 at 09:59 AM (#6006690)

As a born and bred multigenerational NYCer, I think “on line” has a different meaning than “in line”.

You would get “on” line - as in, you go to the back of it and become the last person. It’s akin to going on top of a pile.

But once you’re halfway through the queue (see what I did there?) youre “in” line.

In other words I would ask my wife to get ON line for tickets but if I was running late I would call to ask her if she were IN line already.

That makes sense, but is that how it's used around NYC? I was under the impression people would just use "on line" for both of those situations.

123. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 25, 2021 at 11:07 AM (#6006705)

Part of why it grates is that a line is something you can often see or "touch." A group of people is physically there on the sidewalk making the general shape of a line. It is tangible (sometimes), and so for tangible things we often use more precise physical descriptors. EG, The offensive players on the field are in a huddle. The schoolchildren were arranged in a semi-circle at recess, etc. Schedules, committees, hold, are more ethereal concepts.

Of course, I'm just making post-hoc justifications for why I dislike "on line."

No sir, you are speaking truth! Say it loud and proud!

124. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:03 PM (#6006746)

On hold. On the record. On the increase. On schedule. On tour.

125. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:09 PM (#6006747)

"On hold" occurred to me when I was typing my response, but I guess for me the difference is that "on line," in the usage being addressed, can convey a physical situation, which the others don't.

Would you say "on a queue"? Though of course that can be sidestepped by saying "queued" or "queued up" ... as could also be done with "lined up."

I think there are two ways of looking at it. One is that the people themselves form the line, so you say "in line". The other is the line is a separate physical thing (which it sometimes is when teh place to stand is marked on the ground, or by ropes and stanchions) that you stand on, so "on line".

126. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:13 PM (#6006750)

I think there are two ways of looking at it. One is that the people themselves form the line, so you say "in line". The other is the line is a separate physical thing (which it sometimes is when teh place to stand is marked on the ground, or by ropes and stanchions) that you stand on, so "on line".

In the second scenario, yes, you would be standing on a line (not "on line"), but 99 percent of the time that wouldn't be the relevant information to convey. The substantive information is that you are among, in, a line of people.

127. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:16 PM (#6006752)

As a born and bred multigenerational NYCer, I think “on line” has a different meaning than “in line”.
You would get “on” line - as in, you go to the back of it and become the last person. It’s akin to going on top of a pile.
But once you’re halfway through the queue (see what I did there?) youre “in” line.
In other words I would ask my wife to get ON line for tickets but if I was running late I would call to ask her if she were IN line already.

I agree with all of this.

That makes sense, but is that how it's used around NYC? I was under the impression people would just use "on line" for both of those situations.

I think there's a level of apocryphalism(?) in the alleged ubiquity of ON LINE as a NYC standard.

128. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:27 PM (#6006755)

I think there's a level of apocryphalism(?) in the alleged ubiquity of ON LINE as a NYC standard.

Yes, if someone called me while I was waiting, I could see myself equally saying "I'm waiting on line for tickets" or "I'm waiting in line for tickets".

129. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:55 PM (#6006757)

I think there's a level of apocryphalism(?) in the alleged ubiquity of ON LINE as a NYC standard.

It was ubiquitous in the two most accurate depictions of daily life in NYC: Seinfeld and Friends.

130. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 25, 2021 at 01:57 PM (#6006758)

Payroll's a good one. Pharaoh seems to be pronounced both ways, but I hear the long a less often.

Right, but “payroll” has the “y” (and the component word, “pay”).

I say “Pharaoh” like “Fairoh”, not “Fayroh” or “Feroh”

131. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:08 PM (#6006760)

gef, or others — do you pronounce the words “app” and “ape” the same way?

I can't imagine. "App" is pronounced like the first syllable in "apple" -- or, more apropos, "application."

This sort of begs the question, though.

I guess you pronounce all of those words with the short-a sound differently from me. I can sort of hear it if I imagine how some of my Southern friends or relatives would say those words. Not quite a long-a but something in between.

132. SoSH U at work Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:15 PM (#6006764)

"On hold" occurred to me when I was typing my response, but I guess for me the difference is that "on line," in the usage being addressed, can convey a physical situation, which the others don't.

There's no question that in a choice between the two, in line is a better descriptor than on line. If we were starting from scratch, that's what we'd go with.
"
But "on hold" is a good example of what I mean. The situation is somewhat similar to a "holding pattern." Or, to a lesser sense but using the specific noun, a ship's "hold." In both of those cases, we would say "in" rather than "on." Yet you wouldn't describe "on hold" as being bizarre, because that's the way the phrase developed.

133. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:27 PM (#6006766)

the two most accurate depictions of daily life in NYC: Seinfeld and Friends.

/spit-take gif

134. Howie Menckel Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:35 PM (#6006768)

I say “Pharaoh” like “Fairoh”

not like "arrow?"

135. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:36 PM (#6006770)

Isn't "fairoh" like "arrow"?

136. SoSH U at work Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:41 PM (#6006771)

Right, but “payroll” has the “y” (and the component word, “pay”).

I don't think the long a exists without the y. Beirut has neither an a or a y, but phonetically to me it's bayroot.

What I was saying is I've heard it spoken phay-ro. I don't know how common it is, or if I've only heard morons speaking it that way, but that's what I meant.

As for fairoh vs. farrow, that's just getting back to the original conversation. If you pronounce arrow the same way you would pronounce the hypothetical airow, then there wouldn't be a difference between pharaoh and fairoh.

137. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2021 at 02:45 PM (#6006774)

What I was saying is I've heard it spoken phay-ro.

Yes, I have also.

138. The Gary DiSarcina Fan Club (JAHV) Posted: February 25, 2021 at 05:45 PM (#6006806)

Wait, no one pronounces the second 'a' like "Fair-uh-oh"? Huh. I know that's irrelevant to the discussion. I also have heard "Fay-roh," but I would immediately associate that pronunciation with a Southern accent.

Also, I have never heard someone refer to being in a line of people as being "on line." That's craziness. Well, craziness as defined by my personal understanding of English phraseology that has been uniquely shaped by local dialect.

139. Howie Menckel Posted: February 25, 2021 at 07:38 PM (#6006813)

the owners of what became a Triple Crown-winning horse a few years ago misspelled it as "American Pharoah."

at this point, we might as well yield to that spelling - which already was mistakenly common anyway.

140. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 25, 2021 at 09:05 PM (#6006819)

Apologies if this has been commented on before, but this was the best quote of the entire transcript, even if it had nothing to do with the political part:

And I’m about to watch your facial expressions because not only is the replay here to stay, we’ll have an electronic strike zone within two years. The umpire behind home plate will be called by a machine. There’ll be a home plate umpire, he’ll have a piece in his ear, so just in case the ball bounces through the strike zone and the machine calls that a strike, he can overrule that. The electronic strike zone is coming, it’s pretty hard to argue that the technology doesn’t exist to do that. They’re within millimeters now of, uh, every pitch, heck they know the spin rate on every pitch that’s thrown. And everybody’s analyzing the data on all of that. So it’s there, it exists, and they’re going to use it. We just have to get better at the replays, when we have a replay it’s gotta be done quickly and move on. There can’t be a two minute stop of the action.

HALLE-BLEEPING-LUJAH! Bring it on!

141. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 27, 2021 at 09:42 AM (#6006957)

Then how do you guys pronounce "hairy"? Hay-ree? Heh-ree? How bizarre.

Was listening to a rockabilly compilation last night & couldn't help but notice that in "Party Doll" Buddy Knox -- from the Texas Panhandle -- pronounced "hair" very close to "hire." Must admit that possibility hadn't occurred to me.

142. SoSH U at work Posted: February 27, 2021 at 09:56 AM (#6006960)

Was listening to a rockabilly compilation last night & couldn't help but notice that in "Party Doll" Buddy Knox -- from the Texas Panhandle -- pronounced "hair" very close to "hire."

I think half the population pronounces Jaguar as Jagwire. And another quarter uses that terrible British pronunciation that turns it into a three-syllable word.

143. Lassus Posted: February 27, 2021 at 11:27 AM (#6006964)

HALLE-BLEEPING-LUJAH! Bring it on!

Counter-point: When are the robot players coming?

144. SoSH U at work Posted: February 27, 2021 at 12:15 PM (#6006969)

Counter-point: When are the robot players coming?

Look at the bright side, the robot umps should end his inane caterwauling about "personalized strike zones."

145. .

Posted: February 27, 2021 at 12:57 PM (#6006973)

Counter-point: When are the robot players coming?

Notwithstanding that some models come with the bat flips add-on option, they're already here.

146. Lassus Posted: February 27, 2021 at 04:22 PM (#6006984)

Look at the bright side, the robot umps should end his inane caterwauling about "personalized strike zones."

In fairness, "his" isn't exactly accurate. It's a pretty common caterwaul.

Notwithstanding that some models come with the bat flips add-on option, they're already here.

If only they would hit to the score.

147. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: February 27, 2021 at 09:18 PM (#6006997)

I think half the population pronounces Jaguar as Jagwire. And another quarter uses that terrible British pronunciation that turns it into a three-syllable word.

The only time I ever heard the latter was when NPR's Car Talk guys used it, & I'm pretty sure they were doing it as a joke.

148. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 28, 2021 at 10:30 AM (#6007006)

Look at the bright side, the robot umps should end his inane caterwauling about "personalized strike zones."

I'll be more than happy to stop complaining about it. We can then hear complaints about how robot umps are taking the "skill" of memorizing 92 different strike zones out of the game.

In fairness, "his" isn't exactly accurate. It's a pretty common caterwaul.

And just how else other than "personalized strike zones" can you describe a strike zone that varies according to each umpire's personal standards? Does using this term constitute some sort of microaggression against umpires?

149. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: February 28, 2021 at 01:38 PM (#6007023)

I think half the population pronounces Jaguar as Jagwire. And another quarter uses that terrible British pronunciation that turns it into a three-syllable word.

I say “Jag-wahr” where the second syllable rhymes with “car” or “far”. Have never heard either of the two pronunciations you mention except on the commercials — not even when I lived in London.

150. SoSH U at work Posted: February 28, 2021 at 01:49 PM (#6007024)

I'll be more than happy to stop complaining about it. We can then hear complaints about how robot umps are taking the "skill" of memorizing 92 different strike zones out of the game.

You never had to memorize 92 different strike zones (though I suppose that couldn't hurt). You just had to pay attention. Hey, he likes the outside corner. He wont' give you the high one. I like rewarding ballplayers who pay attention.

And just how else other than "personalized strike zones" can you describe a strike zone that varies according to each umpire's personal standards?

I say “Jag-wahr” where the second syllable rhymes with “car” or “far”. Have never heard either of the two pronunciations you mention except on the commercials — not even when I lived in London.

Maybe it's just the commercials then (though Webster's lists it as a British pronunciation on the online dictionary).

As for Jagwires, that's how it's pronounced by many NFL announcers.

151. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 28, 2021 at 02:45 PM (#6007030)

And just how else other than "personalized strike zones" can you describe a strike zone that varies according to each umpire's personal standards?

As the strike zone. Giving it a name and putting quotes around it didn't create the situation. The strike zone has always been the zone as defined by the umpire's personal standards, dictated by his eye, his position and other factors. You treat this as its a new phenomenon, the byproduct of today's pretty-boy umpires who want to put their stamp on the game. It is not. It is how the game has been called since umps first took their spot behind the catcher. You're objecting to baseball.

You're right that the strike zone has always been subjectively defined by umpires. But now the blatancy of their missed calls is a lot easier to detect. And it's gotten worse.

Now, it's certainly possible that the robot umps will improve the experience for some fans, particularly those like you who choose to fly into a rage when a batter is rung up on a pitch a few inches off the corner.

But as has been demonstrated by data, some players are disproportionately harmed by those extra few inches. Aaron Judge is one prominent example, but he's not the only one. That hardly contributes either to a level playing field or to the quality of the viewing experience.

But, for others, there's no guarantee this will actually lead to a better product. My fear is that a robot zone will further reward those batters who control the zone, leading to even more of a TTO game than we have now, and the game now is barely watchable. Now, that's just speculation. I could be dead wrong. But make no mistake; the game you seek is different than the one that's ever been played. It is not a lock to be an improvement.

What I think tightening the outside corner will bring about will be fewer batters who chase outside pitches out of fear that they'll be rung up if they don't swing. Which in turn will lead to pitchers throwing more strikes, which in turn will lead to more contact and fewer strikeouts. I could be wrong, and maybe it'll just lead to more walks, but by far the worst feature of today's game is the insanely high rate of strikeouts, and any proposal within reason that addresses that problem is IMO well worth undertaking.

(I'd also love to see more hitters adjust their swings after two strikes, but that's a source of the TTO mentality that can't be so directly addressed.)

(Oh, and if learning those "personalized" strike zones is a skill, then why are you critical of batters who "control the zone"?)

As for Jagwires, that's how it's pronounced by many NFL announcers.

My best friend in college always pined for a "Jag-you-waar", and the way he said it seemed to give it an almost erotic connotation. This was before he learned that the Jag-you-waar was just about the most unreliable car this side of a Ford Pinto.

152. SoSH U at work Posted: February 28, 2021 at 03:04 PM (#6007032)

(Oh, and if learning those "personalized" strike zones is a skill, then why are you critical of batters who "control the zone"?)

It's paying attention and adapting, on both sides of the ball. I think those are good things.

And I'm not critical of batters who control the zone. Bully for them.

But today's game sucks. It's pretty close to unwatchable, given the interminable delays and the offensive philosophy that puts power over everything and is indifferent to the strikeout.

I want to see balls in play. I want to see guys protect with two strikes. I don't know what a robot zone will do, but, if I had to bet, my guess it will further reward the take and rake guys at the expense of the rest. That would be a terrible exchange for getting a few more ball/strike calls "right."

153. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 28, 2021 at 04:00 PM (#6007037)

But today's game sucks. It's pretty close to unwatchable, given the interminable delays and the offensive philosophy that puts power over everything and is indifferent to the strikeout.

I want to see balls in play. I want to see guys protect with two strikes. I don't know what a robot zone will do, but, if I had to bet, my guess it will further reward the take and rake guys at the expense of the rest. That would be a terrible exchange for getting a few more ball/strike calls "right."

I still enjoy the game as much as ever, but I agree that the Swing From The Heels mentality is the root of most of what I don't like about it. It's one thing when that approach yields 30 or 40+ homers a year, but not when you see players with 15 dingers and 160 strikeouts.

Where we differ is what the effect of robo-umps will be. I think it'll lead to less pitch chasing, more pitches over the plate, and more balls in play. I guess you don't foresee that result.

One question, though: You talk about the "take and rake" guys, but who are "the rest", and what's their approach to hitting? From what I've seen, the biggest distinction is between the "take and rake" batters and the ones who just swing at everything anywhere near the plate, the ones with the 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 strikeout to walk ratios. AFAIC those batters are the ones who are really screwing up the game.

154. SoSH U at work Posted: February 28, 2021 at 04:33 PM (#6007044)

From what I've seen, the biggest distinction is between the "take and rake" batters and the ones who just swing at everything anywhere near the plate, the ones with the 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 strikeout to walk ratios. AFAIC those batters are the ones who are really screwing up the game.

It all comes from the same place - that hitting the ball as hard as possible on every swing is the only reasonable approach. The guys who control the zone better will work more walks and hit better. The guys who don't will fan more without the positive events. But it all starts with the same philosophy - trade balls in play for the potential for an XBH.

I still enjoy the game as much as ever,

How can you possibly enjoy the game as much as ever? Independent of the shift in balance, the pace alone makes that statement impossible to believe.

155. .

Posted: February 28, 2021 at 06:31 PM (#6007050)

The only way a fan could possibly like today's game more than ever is if he's looking at things entirely independent of the game on the field.

156. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: February 28, 2021 at 09:54 PM (#6007057)

It all comes from the same place - that hitting the ball as hard as possible on every swing is the only reasonable approach. The guys who control the zone better will work more walks and hit better.

That part makes sense. And they'll strike out fewer times due to chasing bad pitches.

The guys who don't will fan more without the positive events. But it all starts with the same philosophy - trade balls in play for the potential for an XBH.

That isn't quite as obvious. One of the reasons some players don't control the strike zone is that they're afraid of being rung up by bad pitches. With a tighter strike zone, over time that fear will be reduced a bit. And pitchers will be faced with more pressure to throw actual strikes, which will result in more balls being put into play.

How can you possibly enjoy the game as much as ever? Independent of the shift in balance, the pace alone makes that statement impossible to believe.

Because the athleticism and the overall talent level is higher than ever before, in great part because the game is drawing from an ever increasing worldwide talent pool. Because the Extra Innings package makes it possible to view any out-of-market game, not just what the four standard cable channels deign to show. Because being able to follow the game more closely in live action makes the players more familiar.

There are three things I don't like: The excessive strikeouts; the length of games; and the price of good seats behind the plate. The robo-umps might help with the strikeouts; enforcing the clock between pitches would reduce the game time; and as long as the Extra Innings package sticks around, the price of tickets, parking, concessions, etc., are for others to worry about. I got to see hundreds of games in over two dozen stadiums before that "dynamic pricing" bullshit set in, and I can live without ever seeing another MLB game in person. I'm fully aware of the fact that I'm not part of MLB's target audience, and I can accept that. When it comes to spectating in person, I had my day.

Bottom line for me is that it's a tradeoff. In an ideal world I'd have the pre-dynamic pricing fan experience, the style of play of the late 70's through the mid 80's, and the talent level and easy access to out-of-market games of today. But you can't have everything.

157. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 01, 2021 at 05:57 AM (#6007065)

marry being like Fahrenheit, marigold, marijuana, magic, malware.

merry being like ferry, meh, many, nebulous.

Mary being like fairy, rare, air.

This is such a weird list. For me, Fahrenheit, marigold, marijuana, ferry, fairy, rare and air all have the same first vowel sound and are the same as marry/merry/Mary. This is the first time I've seen the suggestion that ferry and fairy aren't homophones! The word mare is the first syllable of marry/merry/Mary/marigold/marijuana. Magic and malware have a totally different 'a' sound, more like the one in mat.

The vowel in 'many' is kind of tough to place and I think kind of depends on how quickly you say it, though I guess it can be like meh and nebulous but could also be like man or min. So, my grouping of these would be:

marry, merry, Mary, Fahrenheit, marigold, marijuana, ferry, fairy, rare, air

magic, malware

meh, nebulous, many?

158. Greg K Posted: March 01, 2021 at 07:00 AM (#6007066)

If an automated strike zone eliminates ######## about balls and strikes, it will have all been worth it.

159. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 08:02 AM (#6007069)

Bottom line for me is that it's a tradeoff. In an ideal world I'd have the pre-dynamic pricing fan experience, the style of play of the late 70's through the mid 80's, and the talent level and easy access to out-of-market games of today.

In other words, you don't in fact like today's game more than ever. Dynamic pricing and the Extra Innings package have fvckall to do with the game on the field.

160. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: March 01, 2021 at 08:53 AM (#6007071)

This is such a weird list. For me, Fahrenheit, marigold, marijuana, ferry, fairy, rare and air all have the same first vowel sound and are the same as marry/merry/Mary.

For me the exceptions are ferry & merry. Would you actually pronounce the nouns in "the fairy took the ferry" identically? Same for "Mary, please marry me."

161. Howie Menckel Posted: March 01, 2021 at 10:24 AM (#6007083)

I used to work with a woman named Merry. On the phone, she clearly pronounced it "Merry," which no doubt led to far less confusion than if she had no way to enunciate a difference between "Merry" and "Mary."

though just to be safe, she also would say, "yes, please leave a message that 'Merry, as in Christmas' [her last name] called."

the best part about the whole thing was that she has a very obviously Jewish name

:)

162. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:10 AM (#6007091)

How can you possibly enjoy the game as much as ever? Independent of the shift in balance, the pace alone makes that statement impossible to believe.

The only way a fan could possibly like today's game more than ever is if he's looking at things entirely independent of the game on the field.

/"let people enjoy things" meme

163. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:12 AM (#6007092)

Would you actually pronounce the nouns in "the fairy took the ferry" identically? Same for "Mary, please marry me."

Yes. Rather than go back and mine the thread, can you attempt to explain the difference?

164. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:23 AM (#6007094)

/"let people enjoy things" meme

He can enjoy what he wants, I just don't buy it.

The Cubs' 23-22 win over the Phils in 1979 took the same amount of time as the Astros' 4-1 win over the Nats in Game 3 of the 2019 World Series. In that game 40 years earlier, 46 additional men came to the plate (though only one additional pitcher was used, FWIW). The improved athleticism and higher talent level (mostly the latter, IMO), can't possibly make up for that kind of spectacular dicking around not playing baseball.

165. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:31 AM (#6007097)

/"let people enjoy things" meme

He can enjoy what he wants, I just don't buy it.

His later explanation completely belied his purported conclusion. The Extra Innings package and (for God sakes) dynamic pricing (LOL) are completely beside the point of anything important.

The improved athleticism and higher talent level (mostly the latter, IMO), can't possibly make up for that kind of spectacular dicking around not playing baseball.

To the extent they exist, they're utterly marginal. I've brought up going to a bunch of games in 1980; the talent increase to 2021 is marginal at most. The players lift weights more now, to be sure, but so what? The end result is the same -- you went to a game then and you go to a game now and the players are really, really good players and really, really good athletes. (*) If anything, the fact that American black guys don't play the game as much now detracts from whatever athletic vibe exists. And the degree to which athleticism is actually allowed to express itself on the field is way lower now than in 1980. (Which is in large measure why bullshit like bat flips are now being encouraged so vociferously by the relevant concerned parties and factions, as if that's really a replacement for what's been lost.)

(*) ####, my dad took one of his fake lawyer friends and I and the FL's kid to my second game ever in 1971 against the A's. We got there really early, bumped into Tony Kubek outside the stadium (doing the game for NBC GOTW). Our seats were in lower left field in perfect position to watch outfield warmups. Rick Monday was right in front of us taking some pretty hard warmup throws (in those really sweet A's gray vests and green sleeves before they changed unis the next year) and my dad was kind of, "Wow, just look at that arm." Rick Monday was 6-3, 193 and did have a really good arm, and I mean who really gives a #### if today's Rick Monday is 6-3, 203 with a few more weight muscles??

166. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:37 AM (#6007099)

I've brought up going to a bunch of games in 1980

You were... 14?

I mean, whatever, I still enjoy watching. You're all welcome to feel that you don't, but accusing other people of lying is just pretty weak.

Even though I'll enjoy it far less and might possibly stop watching because of it, I'm not going to tell Andy or you that your satisfaction over robot umpires is some kind of ruse or falsehood.

167. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:44 AM (#6007100)

There's no accusation of lying. SoSH snuffed out the point a little bit and it became clearer that Andy wasn't really talking about the game on the field, but a bunch of surrounding stuff. It's obviously way better that we can now get every game instead of the 40 and 50 game TV schedules of yesteryear, but that doesn't have a thing to do with the game on the field. The game on the field, as SoSH also noted, sucks now.

168. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:45 AM (#6007101)

I mean, whatever, I still enjoy watching.

Do you enjoy it as much as you ever did?

I'm not going to tell Andy or anyone that their satisfaction over robot umpires is some kind of ruse or falsehood.

I have no doubt he'll like that more.

169. bunyon Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:46 AM (#6007102)

I haven't read all of the thread but I still enjoy watching MLB on TV. In person pro ball is borderline. A lot I love about it but the pace problems are far more noticeable in person than on TV.

High school games are a lot of fun still and noticeably devoid of dicking around.

170. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:50 AM (#6007103)

The athleticism point is a fair one; you can certainly see a big difference in quality if you go back to like 1972 as I've recently done a little YouTubing of. The lesser guys then, with their beer and smokes and winter jobs did leave a bit to be desired. But once free agency hit and the players became true full-timers in the late 70s (*), the quality difference is insignificant at most. Unlike hockey, where there's a gargantuan quality difference, the geographic talent draw of baseball is essentially the same now as it was then.

(*) And with it the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that encouraged professional coaching and training.

171. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:52 AM (#6007104)

Do you enjoy it as much as you ever did?

I mean, I loved 2015 and 2016 and 2019 quite a bit. The years when they sucked I didn't, but other years I have. I loved those years as much as 1999 and 2000. I suppose the answer is yes. Sorry? 1986 I was 16, so I'm not sure that even applies.

172. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:53 AM (#6007105)

Were you aware Lassus that it is possible to get on YouTube and test out your childhood/teenage memories?? I challenge any sentient person without an interest in either of the teams to go to the NBC broadcast of 1986 Games 6 and 7 at Shea and compare it to the 2019 Fox WS broadcast and honestly say that today's game is better. You'd have to either be a crank or out of your mind to come to that conclusion. (I won't belabor here an ancillary point, which is that the broadcast at Shea will show a much freer, less uptight country -- but it would also do that. The dude who parachuted into Shea early in one of those games, can't remember which one, would have caused all manner of wailing and shrieking and <<oh no we can't show him it will encourage the terrorists and OMG what if he was a racist he could have killed Carlos Correa>> today. But that's beside the point.)

173. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 11:57 AM (#6007106)

I mean, I loved 2015 and 2016 and 2019 quite a bit.

But you're not talking about the game, you're talking about the result of the games.

Do you enjoy the product more today than you did 10, 15, 20, etc. years ago?

174. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:04 PM (#6007107)

Were you aware Lassus that it is possible to get on YouTube and test out your childhood/teenage memories??

Then perhaps you should have led with YouTube enjoyment rather than "going to games in 1980".

I challenge any sentient person without an interest in either of the teams to go to the NBC broadcast of 1986 Games 6 and 7 at Shea and compare it to the 2019 Fox WS broadcast and honestly say that today's game is better.

I have the DVDs. The question was personal enjoyment. Andy described in detail why he wasn't of the same opinion you are. Calling someone dishonest because they don't think like you think is weak. Every year when there's no Mets game I still watch the Yankees play some DH squad in the Junior Circuit. I don't know what to tell you. Time moves on. You hate it, other people don't.

175. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:08 PM (#6007108)

But you're not talking about the game, you're talking about the result of the games.
Do you enjoy the product more today than you did 10, 15, 20, etc. years ago?

I grok this distinction, but I still watch games. The fact that the goalpost has moved from "as much" to "more" is whatever, but I absolutely don't enjoy it LESS.

Do I want the pitchers and batters to get on with it? Sure. While I notice it's still barely an annoyance to me, personally. I'm not really sure what else to say. Try asking bunyon above, he still likes watching.

176. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:16 PM (#6007110)

The fact that the goalpost has moved from "as much" to "more" is whatever, but I absolutely don't enjoy it LESS.

Sorry, that's what I wanted to know.

All right. It boggles the mind how the ridiculous dicking around doesn't diminish everyone's enjoyment of the product, but there ya go.

177. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:19 PM (#6007112)

Then perhaps you should have led with YouTube enjoyment rather than "going to games in 1980".

I've watched 1980 games recently. I didn't see much there to question the childhood/teen memories thereof. It was a better game than today's. When I see an NHL game from right around then, the quality difference between then and today is stunning. If the NHL talent/athleticism difference is a 10, baseball's is a 0.2. I'd agree that when you get back to baseball in around 1972, it gets significantly more dodgy. I again attribute that to the fact that the 1972 guys were barely even full time baseball players.

The question was personal enjoyment. Andy described in detail why he wasn't of the same opinion you are. Calling someone dishonest because they don't think like you think is weak.

No one called him dishonest or anything of the sort and then when he broke it down, he essentially admitted that his personal opinion is that the game on the field was better from around 1975-85. His other factors were dynamic pricing and Extra Innings, neither of which have anything to do with the game on the field.

178. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:22 PM (#6007114)

The question of whether someone enjoys being a fan of his team less is a completely different one than the quality of the game on the field. That distinction appears to be getting lost in all the back and forth.

"Do I enjoy being a fan of my team more or less now?"
"Do I enjoy being a baseball fan more or less now?"
"Is the game on the field better or worse now?"

Separate and distinct questions. If your sporting interest is purely tribal, there's no reason you'd be less of a fan now than before and no reason really you'd even give a fig about the athleticism and talent on display.

179. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:29 PM (#6007117)

All right. It boggles the mind how the ridiculous dicking around doesn't diminish everyone's enjoyment of the product, but there ya go

I mean, this is fair. I would be happier if - as stated above - they got on with it better, but the affect simply isn't so great that I consciously think I'm not as happy while watching. I mean, am I making subconscious compromises? Maybe. But they seem to be subconscious, so I don't really care.

180. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:30 PM (#6007118)

If your sporting interest is purely tribal

I already stated I am sometimes forced to watch the Yankees.

"Do I enjoy being a fan of my team more or less now?"

More or less regarding "my team" is specifically tribal, and is only affected by how they are doing.

"Do I enjoy being a baseball fan more or less now?"

I don't even know what this means.

"Is the game on the field better or worse now?"

I think you have a very particular - although not at all unique - view on the empirical nature of your opinions, so this question seems pointless to answer. I mean, as an example, I LIKE shifts. I WANT hitters to adjust to them, and I hope they are forced to. That to me is a better game. I LIKE the humanity of umpires and the judgment calls. That to me is also a better game. YMMV.

181. bunyon Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:42 PM (#6007120)

All right. It boggles the mind how the ridiculous dicking around doesn't diminish everyone's enjoyment of the product, but there ya go.

I almost think the dicking around is bad enough now that there is plenty of time to make baseball a multi-tasking event. I can grade papers, create assignments, scan the recent literature, etc. while I watch. If they moved at 1950s pace, I could devote myself to watching the game. If they move at 1990s pace, it's still too slow but events happen quickly enough to keep me from doing other things.

Baseball is a cool game, one I know well. It's my game, in many ways. So I enjoy it. I'll watch just about any version and enjoy it. I think it's possible I enjoy it less now than I used to. But, dear lord, that's true for a lot of things. If you haven't noticed - and not a one of you appears to be immune - there is a strong tendency in men to get more curmudgeonly as they age. (Edit to add: This is me in spring training. Ask me in October, I'll be sick of the dicking around and grumpy that the season is ending)

I think you have a very particular - although not at all unique - view on the empirical nature of your opinions, so this question seems pointless to answer. I mean, as an example, I LIKE shifts. I WANT hitters to adjust to them, and I hope they are forced to. That to me is a better game. I LIKE the humanity of umpires and the judgment calls. That to me is also a better game. YMMV.

Co-sign. We're not building more efficient machines here.

182. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:49 PM (#6007121)

I LIKE the humanity of umpires and the judgment calls. That to me is also a better game. YMMV.

That's why I'm so surprised that you so routinely ridicule my anti-analytics stance, analytics being the most anti-baseball-humanist development ever developed.

183. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:53 PM (#6007124)

Baseball is a cool game, one I know well. It's my game, in many ways. So I enjoy it. I'll watch just about any version and enjoy it. I think it's possible I enjoy it less now than I used to. But, dear lord, that's true for a lot of things. If you haven't noticed - and not a one of you appears to be immune - there is a strong tendency in men to get more curmudgeonly as they age.

Selectively curmudgeonly. Curmudgeonly about strikeouts, curmudgeonly about the ballpark experience with its overpriced seats and its nonstop loud music, curmudgeonly about stalling, curmudgeonly about 92 different strike zones, but not so curmudgeonly that I've lost all sense of perspective and don't realize the many ways the game has become more enjoyable than it was before I came curmudgeonly myself. What really defines curmudgeonliness is a complete absence of being able to put things into an historical perspective, and blindly assuming that either all change is bad or all change is good. That's not just being curmudgeonly, that's being stupid and maybe prematurely senile, a condition possibly caused by watching Fox News.

End of curmudgeonly rant. (smile)

184. bunyon Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:57 PM (#6007126)

The strike zone has been a sore subject since someone first picked up a rock and through it at a guy with a stick. Yeah, I wish they were better but I like griping about it.

The game in person is definitely less enjoyable than it used to be. It's loud and slow.

185. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 12:58 PM (#6007127)

analytics being the most anti-baseball-humanist development ever developed.

See:

the empirical nature of your opinions

186. Lassus Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:00 PM (#6007128)

As usual, bunyon has stated my position far, far better than I have. [#181]

187. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:06 PM (#6007130)

Baseball is a cool game, one I know well. It's my game, in many ways. So I enjoy it. I'll watch just about any version and enjoy it. I think it's possible I enjoy it less now than I used to. But, dear lord, that's true for a lot of things. If you haven't noticed - and not a one of you appears to be immune - there is a strong tendency in men to get more curmudgeonly as they age.

188. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:08 PM (#6007131)

The game in person is definitely less enjoyable than it used to be.

I wonder how much any person's "enjoyment" of baseball relates to the nature of the game on the field, and how much relates to how his favorite team is doing. It's hard for me to say, because while I've been following first the AL and then the AL East for longer than all of you here have probably been alive, I can never drum up enough internal interest to watch a National League game until the arrival of the playoffs. (OTOH I enjoy interleague games against the top NL legacy teams immensely, since I see them as a mini-World Series.)

189. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:19 PM (#6007132)

The game in person is definitely less enjoyable than it used to be.

I wonder how much any person's "enjoyment" of baseball relates to the nature of the game on the field, and how much relates to how his favorite team is doing.

In late summer 2018, we dropped off my son for his senior year of college, and for the first time since he started going, the O's were home. Better yet, they were playing the Sox, who were in the middle of their best season in my lifetime. I went with my two sons and father-in-law. All but the college student were big baseball fans.

My first trip to Camden Yards, the Sox won and Mookie was his MVP self. And on the way out, I apologized to my oldest son because the pace was so needlessly dreadful even I had difficulty enjoying the game.

190. bunyon Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:45 PM (#6007134)

I don't think that's it. I still love baseball, and intend to get my fill from sources other than MLB in the coming years (HS, college, independent leagues). And maybe it's because I spend more time watching other versions (particularly HS over the past four years, when the youngest boy was playing), that the horrible pace of the current game is so much more obvious and painful.

The only college ball I have regular access to is a mimic of MLB. Loud piped in music and glacial pace. It's even more farcical because there are never more than about 50 people there. All of whom, I guarantee, hate the music.

191. .

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 01:58 PM (#6007138)

I love the addition of music to the stadium experience, particularly walk-up music (*), so I guess my inner curmudgeon manifests itself in different ways.

(*) It's not just the existence of the music, but the fact that the players pick their own.

192. bunyon Posted: March 01, 2021 at 02:01 PM (#6007140)

I, too, like walk up music. The crap between pitces, batters and innings sucks.

193. Ziggy: social distancing since 1980 Posted: March 01, 2021 at 02:42 PM (#6007148)

A lot I love about it but the pace problems are far more noticeable in person than on TV.

Fierce disagree. When you go to the park you've decided that this is what your evening is. You're not going to do any work, you're not going to read a book. You're at a baseball game. So you chat with your friends and drink over-priced beer and wonder why the leftfielder is shaded so far towards the line against a left-handed batter. And who cares how long it takes or how fast it goes. You're just at the park for the evening.

At home, you've got other stuff to do, and you're not chatting with your friends. And it gets boring watching batters fiddle with their gloves (you can't even see the left fielder), so you turn it off and get some work done.

194. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: March 01, 2021 at 02:44 PM (#6007149)

Yes. Rather than go back and mine the thread, can you attempt to explain the difference?

"Fairy" rhymes with "Barry" -- short "a." Same for "marry."

"Ferry" rhymes with "Perry" -- short "e." Same for "Mary" & "merry," though as conceded previously I'm (along with many, many others) being lazy with the "a" in the proper name.

195. vortex of dissipation Posted: March 01, 2021 at 02:49 PM (#6007150)

And another quarter uses that terrible British pronunciation [of Jaguar] that turns it into a three-syllable word.

The only time I ever heard the latter was when NPR's Car Talk guys used it, & I'm pretty sure they were doing it as a joke.

I'm English. I, my family, and every other English person I know pronounces the word as "Jag-you-uh". Three syllables. It would never have occurred to me to say it any other way. The American way of saying the word is, to me, one of the things I dislike most about American English. I cringe when I hear it.

Note: I edited how I say it, after thinking about it.

196. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 02:53 PM (#6007152)

I'm English. I, my family, and every other English person I know pronounces the word as "Jag-u-ar". Three syllables. It would never have occurred to me to say it any other way. The American way of saying the word is, to me. one of the things I dislike most about American English. I cringe when I hear it.

Now batting, Ju-an Benitez.

(I hear he's responsible for the coronavirus).

197. gef, talking mongoose & suburban housewife Posted: March 01, 2021 at 03:14 PM (#6007156)

Juwan Howard endorses this pronunciation.

198. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: March 01, 2021 at 03:29 PM (#6007160)

What are the only two words beginning with "su" that are pronounced "sh..."?

199. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 03:38 PM (#6007161)

Based on that, sure, surely and surety must be considered one word.

200. SoSH U at work Posted: March 01, 2021 at 03:40 PM (#6007162)

Sugar would be the other.

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